October 2010 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] MicroSqueak Was: Re: [update 1.2] #12188
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

>> > > Ah, good to know. I will be very happy to someday take a 50k input, and > a script.st file containing a ConfigurationOfXXX load sentence and get a > fully featured custom image. > Keep the good job. I hope :) and ideally I would like to have binary loading instead of having the compiler loaded first :) but it takes time.

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Re: [Pharo-project] how to get the diff on commit on the pharo source?
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

> It is not the mailing list that is the problem, it is the >> squeaksource.com server that is. It takes several minutes to calculate >> a simple diff of a single version and that just kills responsiveness >> at the current rate of commits. > > That seems to be a really high number. I just compared a version of the > CollectionTests package in Squeak 4.2 with a Pharo version. The two are totally different, there are 2002 changes. Parsing both packages and creating the diffs takes less than a second with Cog. So it's probably less than 3 seconds with the standard VM. And this is an edge case. > this is true that squeaksource is central and we should get it faster not slower. :-/ Stef

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Re: [Pharo-project] how to get the diff on commit on the pharo source?
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

Ok I see INRIA told us that they will allocate some time of their busy engineer for the web-dav server. Once we have that we could host any pharo/squeak projects. Now we will not have squeaksource.... :( But for pharo we need a scriptable interface because we are losing time moving package around. Stef > On 11 October 2010 17:49, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> I would really like to have the same behavior than the squeak system ie having the source modification >> send to the list. I could not see how to set it up on squeaksource. >> May be this is not the same version running. > > It is disabled because of the excessive processing power that this > requires. And the server is already at the limit. Ok this is sad because I would like that people can see published code. > > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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Re: [Pharo-project] Hallo Pharoers.. namespaces in the system level ?
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

On Oct 11, 2010, at 6:02 PM, James Foster wrote: > > On Oct 11, 2010, at 8:07 AM, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >> Hi guys >> >> there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference between >> (1) namespace at the language level and we do not want that the way german did it. > > StÃ©phane, > > Are you suggesting that the approach GermÃ¡n Leiva demonstrated at ESUG last month is "at the language level"? Could you elaborate? no time to elaborate sorry I have boring documents to write. Now this is at the language level because as a programmer I have to write it when I write my class. Look at point 2 items: you as a nice programmer do not care that your class is defined in bootstrap or normal. Stef > > James > >> Give us some times and we will try different solutions and see what come out >> (2) systemDictionary at the infrastructure level. >> We are working on that since Squeak Kernel Cleaning Project >> here we want the tools to be able to use another environment so that we can >> - bootstrap the compiler with itself >> - load different version of code (for Moose) to build report on Pharo 1.2 from pharo 1.1 >> - bootstrap the kernel >> - build atomic loading. >> We are working on 2 and this is what nick needs. >> I will not talk about namespace at the lnaguage level. No time for that. >> >> Stef >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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Re: [Pharo-project] Hallo Pharoers.. namespaces in the system level ?
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

On Oct 11, 2010, at 5:53 PM, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote: > Nick, > > I'm certainly no expert on DST, but I will gladly help where I can. You're starting a PhD program? Is Stef your advisor? That would put you in good hands. noury luc and me :) Indeed nick you should ahve a look at VisualWorks Distributed Smalltalk. I remember now that in 3 min I could browse your browser from my machine wayback in 2002. Stef > > Bill > > > ________________________________________ > From: pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr [pharo-project-bounces(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of Nick Papoylias [npapoylias(a)gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, October 11, 2010 11:43 AM > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Hallo Pharoers.. namespaces in the system level ? > > I am currently concerned with remote programming (debugger, browser, compiler e.t.c) in Pharo from one image (or environment) to another, so that this infrastructure can be used in the field of autonomous robotics to ease the development cycle. > > So we should definitely exchange ideas ! Cause there surely is more than one way to go (plain sockets and API, rST, remote SystemDictionary and environment, to name a few..) > > We should keep in touch ! > > Nick > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com<mailto:serge.stinckwich@gmail.com>> wrote: > 2010/10/11 Nick Papoylias <npapoylias(a)gmail.com<mailto:npapoylias@gmail.com>>: >> Hallo to all, >> >> I am starting my Ph.D on 'languages and environments for autonomous >> robotics' -- and pharo will be a huge part of it. > > Hi Nick, > > Great to see that another guy will work in the domain of embedded > systems&autonomous robots with Smalltalk ! > > I already talked with Noury or Luc about that. This is really > important to share code as we are a small community, especially code > to interface with existing robotics systems like ROS, OROCOS or > Player/Stage. I will start soon to work on how to integrate Smalltalk > with ROS: http://www.ros.org/wiki/ > > Regards, > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC), Hanoi, Vietnam > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > http://doesnotunderstand.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr<mailto:Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr> > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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Re: [Pharo-project] Hallo Pharoers.. namespaces in the system level ?
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

On Oct 11, 2010, at 5:25 PM, Nick Papoylias wrote: > > > On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 5:11 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > > > For example there currently exist a setter in the class side for 'migratting' in a new environment, that just alters the class knowledge about the new namespace and does not erase it's record from the old namespace. > where? > > Class>>environment: (as far as I understand the class changes it's environment, without erasing itself from the old one and adding itself to the new one) clearly a bug. Cna you open a ticket? if you could write a test it would be excellent. In fact this method was never build with multiple environment in mind :) > > Is this intented ? What is the underlying design ? Should we add an environment: setter in the subclass message, so that we integrate namespaces with the current Browser ? Should Behavior always return Smalltalk globals, or there should be a setter to be able to migrate a whole hierarchy of classes elsewhere ? > > Normally a class should be able to return its environment and it can be different to Smalltalk globals, for example > we want to have to environments so that we can load Opal in one to modify the other Opal compiler that we will running. > > Up to now marcus was using the old compiler to compile the new but in the future we only want one compiler and still been able to > change it. > > Stef > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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Re: [Pharo-project] Pharo by Example has moved to github
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

Ok for me do the simplest thing for you. This was just a meta remark. Stef On Oct 11, 2010, at 5:32 PM, Lukas Renggli wrote: >>> Excellent, can I also push the Seaside Book there? >> >> If you want. Now I do not see the interest of git when we use it as svn. And I would prefer to host the book on an inria server >> because I know that this is backup by someboyd else than me. >> and for a book I do not want to fork it (or people can fork it but I do not care of what they will do with their fork). > > The problem is that the sync with Pier does not work with SVN. You can > only update and backup by using Git with the SVN backend. > > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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[Pharo-project] Squeak/Pharo port of Xtreams moved
by Nicolas Cellier Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

After Julian demand, I moved Squeak/Pharo port of Xtreams to http://www.squeaksource.com/Xtreams.html Sorry for the inconvenience, but it's better to do it now. Please update your links. Nicolas

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[Pharo-project] License question
by Schwab,Wilhelm K Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

Stef, Let's go forward in time. NativeBoost, Alien or FFI provide callbacks, I do some adaptation on my end, and out comes a pretty capable wrapper for the GNU Scientific Library. That sentence trivializes a LOT of work :( Details aside, is the wrapper code itself affected by GPL, or is it merely something unrelated that happens to invoke GSL if the latter is present on a system? What implications would that have for putting the wrapper in the inbox? This won't happen next week or next month, but depending on how easy it is to get going with callbacks, it shouldn't be years either. Bill

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Re: [Pharo-project] Compiler pedantic about ifNotNil: argument
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

> personnally I do not like this form >> What does it do? >> >>> process ifNotNil: #terminate. >> >> >> for me it means passes the symbol #terminate as argument to the method ifNotNil: >> If it has a more magical behavior then I do not know it. >> >> Stef > > It's exactly the same as using collection do: #something. > > FWIW, in 1.2 we already included the compiler changes Levente suggested to me to remove this restriction, so > > nil ifNotNil: #squared -> nil > 4 ifNotNil: #squared -> 16. This is still not really readable compared to 4 ifNotNil: [:rec | rec squared] For select: #even why not Now to me this looks like a hack and again it works because now Symbol are valuable objects. Too many hacks will only make the system more hackish. And especially the iftrue: 'foo' ifFalse: 'zork' In Smalltalk this is simple you ut bracket when you do not know if a part should/will be executed. Now with such change this is not the case anymore. I think that we are focusing on the wrong point. Changing the language that way does not bring anything really useful. And I would veto such usage in the core for consistency reason. Stef

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Re: [Pharo-project] Compiler pedantic about ifNotNil: argument
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

I think that for typing in a transcript experessions when you want to experiment with something selectors are fun but not in method body. But I know that this is not a really good argument. Just feeling. May be we get trapped in our way of thinking. >>>>>> > I personally don't like the ifTrue:ifFalse: related changes, though it's a logical change. I probably won't use that feature though. But I like the monadic block <-> keyword selector substitution. Maybe the best is to add a setting/preference to the compiler.

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Re: [Pharo-project] Hallo Pharoers.. namespaces in the system level ?
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

Hi guys there is a HUGE HUGE HUGE difference between (1) namespace at the language level and we do not want that the way german did it. Give us some times and we will try different solutions and see what come out (2) systemDictionary at the infrastructure level. We are working on that since Squeak Kernel Cleaning Project here we want the tools to be able to use another environment so that we can - bootstrap the compiler with itself - load different version of code (for Moose) to build report on Pharo 1.2 from pharo 1.1 - bootstrap the kernel - build atomic loading. We are working on 2 and this is what nick needs. I will not talk about namespace at the lnaguage level. No time for that. Stef

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[Pharo-project] Hallo Pharoers.. namespaces in the system level ?
by Nick Papoylias Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

*Hallo to all, * I am starting my Ph.D on 'languages and environments for autonomous robotics' -- and pharo will be a huge part of it. I am currently playing around with the system (to get the feel of it..) and testing it's programming tools in the context of different namespaces / environments. Specifically I am trying to find out what the implications of having a remote environment over rST for e.g (to browse, debug e.t.c). *Any pointers to related work, suggestions e.t.c are welcomed. * So my question: *Is anybody currently working on integrating namespaces in the system level ? I may have one or two questions and suggestions to make. *Thank you very much ! Nick Papoulias* *

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Re: [Pharo-project] Migration Manual for Pharo 1.1 ?
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

Welcome and any help is welcome. On Oct 11, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Johannes Rasche wrote: > Thanks Alain, Stef and Mariano for fast answer. > > I assume that will help. > > Possibly I can contribute to improve documentation by carefull reading, trying and so on > > Johannes > > Am 11.10.2010 um 14:51 schrieb Mariano Martinez Peck: > >> >> >> 2010/10/11 Johannes Rasche <johannesrasche(a)mac.com> >> Hi Folks, >> >> I just wanted to install my work on version 1.1 and was surprised >> to discover changes which leave me alone to find out for myself how to change my code : >> >> WorldMenu (I wrote a subclass of PasteUpMorph) >> NaturalLanguageTranslator (what is the "gettext package" mentioned in the class comment? - cannot find a menu to edit translations - hidden sowhere?) >> >> >> http://book.pharo-project.org/book/Localisation/ >> >> possibly more surprises to come .... >> >> some backwardcompatibilty support would have been nice >> and >> some examples >> >> But I like to point out as well, that Pharo is improving from release to release - thanks for that !!!! >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> >> >> >> Johannes Rasche >> Hagelberger Str. 56 >> 10965 Berlin >> >> mail: johannesrasche(a)me.com >> skype: johannesrasche >> www: http://myNeat.de >> fon: +49-30-7469 4425 (skypeIn) >> fax: +49-30-315 66 821 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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Re: [Pharo-project] Hallo Pharoers.. namespaces in the system level ?
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

> > For example there currently exist a setter in the class side for 'migratting' in a new environment, that just alters the class knowledge about the new namespace and does not erase it's record from the old namespace. where? > Is this intented ? What is the underlying design ? Should we add an environment: setter in the subclass message, so that we integrate namespaces with the current Browser ? Should Behavior always return Smalltalk globals, or there should be a setter to be able to migrate a whole hierarchy of classes elsewhere ? Normally a class should be able to return its environment and it can be different to Smalltalk globals, for example we want to have to environments so that we can load Opal in one to modify the other Opal compiler that we will running. Up to now marcus was using the old compiler to compile the new but in the future we only want one compiler and still been able to change it. Stef

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[Pharo-project] [update 1.2] #12188
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

12188 ----- - Issue 3086: MCMethodDefinition>>shutdown hack to avoid lock down. - Issue 2875: PharoKernel Part 11. Thanks Pavel Krivanek and Nicolas Paes Stef

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Re: [Pharo-project] Another finalization concern: error handling
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

Arghhhhh >>> > > ObjectFinalizer>>finalize > "Finalize the resource associated with the receiver. This message > should only be sent during the finalization process. There is NO > garantuee that the resource associated with the receiver hasn't been > free'd before so take care that you don't run into trouble - this all > may happen with interrupt priority." > [self value] on: Error do:[:ex| ex return]. > > now, replace this implementation with just > self value > and you'll see what will happen. > > Such behavior is completely unacceptable in terms of finding the bugs > & problems in your code. yes please fix.... arghhhh Stef

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[Pharo-project] [update 1.2] #12191
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

12191 ----- - Issue 3092: Additional test for weak registry to check for deadlocks. Thanks Igor Stasenko. Issue 3093: Weaklings cleanup & fixes. Thanks Igor Stasenko. Igor the testFinalizationOfMultipleResources breaks, can you have a look? Stef

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[Pharo-project] Pharo by Example has moved to github
by Oscar Nierstrasz Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

See: http://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/ Cheers, - on

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Re: [Pharo-project] Hallo Pharoers.. namespaces in the system level ?
by Simon Denier Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

On 11 oct. 2010, at 15:17, Igor Stasenko wrote: > Also, i remember someone presented the namespaces implementation > during last ESUG conference. Its fresh, and probably will run on pharo. > But i don't remember who did this. Here you go, it's a GSOC project, video included: Begin forwarded message: > From: James Foster <Smalltalk(a)JGFoster.net> > Date: 24 septembre 2010 00:09:39 HAEC > To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr, ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> > Subject: [Pharo-project] GSoC Project for Namespaces > Reply-To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > GermÃ¡n Leiva was accepted in Google Summer of Code 2010 and developed a Namespaces implementation for Pharo Smalltalk. A video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4I7fSVNX2A is based on his presentation at ESUG in Barcelona last week. You can get the code at http://www.squeaksource.com/Environments.html. > > James Foster > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Simon

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Oct. 11, 2010

On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:55 PM, Levente Uzonyi wrote: > On Mon, 11 Oct 2010, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > >>>> That "hack" is really cool IMO. The code is easily understood by anyone: >>> >>> #(4 1 3 5 2) sort: #<=. >> >> yes in Moose people are using that a lot for scripting. Now the problem is that as soon >> as you need more you have to get a block. > > Why is that a problem? You can use the symbol for simple cases and write blocks for the complicated ones. Indeed this is why we added Symbol>>value, even if I was against because been burned by Object>>value in some VW projects :) Now I do not see the point for ifNotNil: and for ifTrue:ifFalse:

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Oct. 11, 2010

12190 ----- - Issue 3065: HardCoded SystemOrganization references. Stef

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[Pharo-project] Migration Manual for Pharo 1.1 ?
by Johannes Rasche Oct. 11, 2010

Oct. 11, 2010

Hi Folks, I just wanted to install my work on version 1.1 and was surprised to discover changes which leave me alone to find out for myself how to change my code : WorldMenu (I wrote a subclass of PasteUpMorph) NaturalLanguageTranslator (what is the "gettext package" mentioned in the class comment? - cannot find a menu to edit translations - hidden sowhere?) possibly more surprises to come .... some backwardcompatibilty support would have been nice and some examples But I like to point out as well, that Pharo is improving from release to release - thanks for that !!!! Thanks in advance Johannes Rasche Hagelberger Str. 56 10965 Berlin mail: johannesrasche(a)me.com skype: johannesrasche www: http://myNeat.de fon: +49-30-7469 4425 (skypeIn) fax: +49-30-315 66 821

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Oct. 11, 2010

>> That "hack" is really cool IMO. The code is easily understood by anyone: > > #(4 1 3 5 2) sort: #<=. yes in Moose people are using that a lot for scripting. Now the problem is that as soon as you need more you have to get a block. Stef

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Oct. 11, 2010

We already integrated the fixes for the systemOrganization he did. More is needed. Stef On Oct 11, 2010, at 3:23 PM, Simon Denier wrote: > > On 11 oct. 2010, at 15:17, Igor Stasenko wrote: > >> Also, i remember someone presented the namespaces implementation >> during last ESUG conference. Its fresh, and probably will run on pharo. >> But i don't remember who did this. > > > > Here you go, it's a GSOC project, video included: > > Begin forwarded message: > >> From: James Foster <Smalltalk(a)JGFoster.net> >> Date: 24 septembre 2010 00:09:39 HAEC >> To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr, ESUG Mailing list <esug-list(a)lists.esug.org> >> Subject: [Pharo-project] GSoC Project for Namespaces >> Reply-To: Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> >> GermÃ¡n Leiva was accepted in Google Summer of Code 2010 and developed a Namespaces implementation for Pharo Smalltalk. A video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4I7fSVNX2A is based on his presentation at ESUG in Barcelona last week. You can get the code at http://www.squeaksource.com/Environments.html. >> >> James Foster >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > -- > Simon > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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