June 2009 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

[Pharo-project] [ANN] 10344
by StÃ©phane Ducasse June 29, 2009

June 29, 2009

super initialize second part Thanks alain. Stef

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Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] The future of Squeak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT license clean)
by GÃ¶ran Krampe June 29, 2009

June 29, 2009

Hi! (still cross posting, hope you don't mind) Gary Dunn wrote: > I am new here and not really qualified to comment on this issue. Please > take my input as having good intentions. Specifically, I do not want to > start a flame war over the pros and cons of various projects. Nah, we don't do flame wars in the Squeak community. Well, not bad ones at least :) > There is much to learn from the history of the BSD community. > (Disclaimer: I am a huge fan of FreeBSD.) The FreeBSD project began with > the goal of creating an open-source OS for Intel i386 hardware that was > as faithful as possible to BSD Unix. In time the developers were going > in three directions. One group wanted high performance, a second wanted > portability to every possible platform, and a third wanted high > reliability and security. There were also the usual personality > conflicts and differing opinions on how to manage the project. > Eventually it forked, twice, giving us FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD. > Each has its own personality, its own strengths. The good news is they > cross-pollinate each other. Yeah, that would be a positive future. And I have in fact earlier strongly advocated the fact that we need to "live with forks" because we already have several of them (like Croquet, OLPC etc). But see below... [SNIP] > It looks to me like Pharo is a Smalltalk for building grown-up apps. > Very much like the Smalltalk I began with, which produced apps with the > look and feel of the host Microsoft Windows. I think there is a need for > that. I take it Pharo is new, and as such it has been luring developers > away from Squeak. The potential for good in this outweighs whatever the > negative consequences may be, because, like the BSDs, the Squeak > developers can always pull in what they like from Pharo. In a "perfect world", yes. I even started the DeltaStreams project with these cross pollination scenarios in my head. > Do not confuse a fork with a divorce. Think of it as mitosis. The more > the merrier. Yes, that is also the way I have argued about it. See: http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2007-August/119471.h… > I believe that the impact of Squeak on education has yet to be realized. > The necessary hardware -- the visionary Dynabook -- is just appearing. > It will be years before there are enough skilled teachers for the > critical mass required for the paradigm shift to occur. And there is the > culture change, so difficult in a field as institutionalized as modern > education. What we have been seeing are the Smalltalk explorers and > trail blazers, the pioneers to whom we will someday owe an enormous debt > of gratitude. Possibly true, but Smalltalk, Squeak, Etoys and even Croquet have been around for quite some time now - and we haven't seen any real explosion yet. Croquet was meant to "explode" but hasn't. So I am not holding my breath for "the day Squeak gets popular" :) > I am in no position to recommend anything here, but I will just the > same. Please forgive me. I recommend that Squeak not be killed off, or > merged. Let the fork live on. Nothing to forgive, I want to hear lots of opinions in order for me to personally form an opinion about the idea. The "view" you present above is a positive one of a forked world. The reality can be harsher: Take XFree86 vs XOrg for example. The history there is complicated but the fact remains - XOrg started, added lots of "cool features" quickly while XFree86 stood still, then when the developers started heavily voting with their feet the distros also switched and XFree86 was dead before it even hit the floor. There are mainly two aspects here that tells me that the above "bad future of XFree86" is more likely to happen than the "good future of Open/Net/FreeBSD": - Pharo may "sound" like it has a different agenda than Squeak.org but IMO the large majority of Squeak.org developers share the Pharo agenda. Thus the differentiation is not there. Most people will just pick the one with the most momentum, and that is Pharo. - Squeak.org is standing still. Sure, there are things being done by some people, no doubt about that. But perception is *everything* and from the outside it seems to be standing still. Even the squeak-dev list is quieting down and that is a bad sign. So although I share your basic view of cross pollinating forks being a "Good Thing" and something we should embrace (see OLPC, Squeakland, Croquet etc etc) such forks need to have a specific goal. IMHO Pharo is not such a fork, Pharo is still very much "generic" as is Squeak.org. Pharo is more like "Squeak.org going agile" or "Smalltalk, with less talk" :). And thus it resembles XOrg much, much more than OpenBSD. > I cannot close without saying that "Phreak" would be a very bad name :-) Again, I wasn't even advocating a name change - although a name change may be a good thing if we would merge. Also, I hate to say it, but "Pharo" sucks pretty bad too I think, and you guys STILL have attracted lots of developers :) :) Oh, and a final note: But what if Squeak.org is abandoned and everyone moves to Pharo, what is so bad about letting that happen? It is NOT bad. But I think we could do it in a smoother way and actually turn this into something *positive*. The merge could be turned into a real BOOST to Squeak/Pharo. regards, GÃ¶ran

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Re: [Pharo-project] The future of Squeak & Pharo
by Janko MivÅ¡ek June 28, 2009

June 28, 2009

Bert Freudenberg pravi: > Randal L. Schwartz wrote: >> At this point, I'd be leaning back towards squeak central >> reintegrating Pharo, >> given that Etoys already forked. > Even disregarding what the Pharo people would think about the idea, > doesn't that argument go both ways? As in "given that Pharo already > forked, Etoys can now be reintegrated to Squeak"? Hardly. Pharo deals with lower levels than EToys, EToys works in top of that core, being Pharo or Squeak. That's why I see Randal's suggestion reasonable and a nice refinement of GÃ¶ran's original "merge" idea. Then one should just adjust EToys on top, or I'm too naive and don't see some technical problem here? Best regards Janko -- Janko MivÅ¡ek AIDA/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

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Re: [Pharo-project] The future of Squeak & Pharo
by Janko MivÅ¡ek June 28, 2009

June 28, 2009

Ian Trudel pravi: > GÃ¶ran Krampe: >> Not sure what you mean there. > > Squeak is hardly approachable to newcomers (either seasoned > programmers or simple new ones). Gaining popularity explicitly means > to have newcomers. It's not possible if they can't understand what's > going on. > >> Personally I like the colors. I also don't equal "normal" with >> "professional". But such is taste! > > We could certainly debate on tastes but it's perfectly fine that you > like the current colour scheme. However, you're not alone using Squeak > and we have to consider other tastes. > I just mean something approachable (normal look-and-feel), where > people will feel comfortable from the day they start using Squeak > through every other following days. > A professional look-and-feel is probably more about simplicity and > usability. It doesn't need to have colours by truck load. Something > that one can spend countless hours looking at without eyes popping out > of their sockets. And it's about everything... for example, Squeak has > these childish window buttons and so on... it's NOT that cool, far > from being trendy. Why would we get stubborn to keep such things? It > looks like a toy, Squeak sometimes feels like a toy. When I squeeze > Squeak, it squeaks. Just saying... =) I completely agree with Ian here. If Squeak wants to be considered for serious development, but also to attract developers from other communities and newcomers, it must have the look&feel which is close to theirs. This not mean that it must be the same, no, just that it follows the established look&feel standards elsewhere. Current Squeak is far away from that, while Pharo is marching well into a more standard look&feel direction. This is actually one of main reasons I'm attracted to Pharo. Also because they listen to such proposals! But this don't mean that EToys can stay more colorful, no, let it be on top of that more "traditionally professional" base. Why to mix two so different audiences into one image? Janko > And, unless some of us are graphic designers, why not just focus on > something simple, usable and approachable? That's definitively not out > of reach. > >> Note that talking about what we "need" and what other people "want" is not >> really that fruitful. We get what we *do*, or in other words - if someone >> feels it is important enough to spend time on it - it will get done. Noone >> works on something because *someone else* told him to. > > It seems to me that we are crying for direction as a community. Squeak > seems to be lost. Consequently, need, want, do, etc... it's just not > happening. Don't get me wrong, but it's just that you make it sounds > like everything can be done without a plan. And some of the things we > could want requires a lot of work hours and man power. It's not going > to happen overnight. > >>> requirements of my distributors, which makes it overly challenging for >>> me to consider Squeak as our platform of development. >> Elaborate? > > Please, Igor and I have talked a little bit about this. He will > certainly bring that on board's table. Anyway, GÃ¶ran, I hope to be > able to share a complete list at later time. I am not done reviewing > the requirements. It's also challenging to know the status of projects > in Squeak and what has to be done. > > >>> Squeak doesn't need a killer app. It needs to be spruced up and put >>> back on track. Honey moon is over, it's time to get real. >> Hehe, I really don't agree. :) >> >> Squeak *is* real. We already have our killer app (Seaside). We do need to >> clean shit up though (and I am not talking about UI primarily) and get the >> improvement process working. Currently Squeak.org is getting smashed (again, >> I don't have hard numbers, but I think I am right) by Pharo when it comes to >> hard, concrete, nitty gritt work getting done. > > Squeak has a killer app named Seaside. > Ruby has a killer app named Ruby On Rails. > Both are web frameworks, which kills which? > > It doesn't really matter. It's not even about merits. Ruby is still > more approachable language and better documented. And I find it almost > amusing to have a killer app for the web, when one of the strength of > Squeak is multimedia. No, no, I am not trying to flame war here... > just trying to expose few things in order that we can openly discuss > about them. > > Whether you agree or not, Squeak doesn't seem to gain in popularity > and people are flocking out to other forks. That means Squeak is doing > something wrong. Wrong enough to overcome all the "done right". =) > > Regards, > Ian > -- Janko MivÅ¡ek AIDA/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

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[Pharo-project] Pharo image crashes the VM
by Lukas Renggli June 28, 2009

June 28, 2009

Somebody reported on the Seaside bug tracker about a Seaside One-Click image (based on a recent Pharo image) that crashes when trying to open it. http://code.google.com/p/seaside/issues/detail?id=393 I reproduced the problem on my machine and got the crash-log below. Seems to be somehow related to 'primitiveSetPixelSizes' in 'FT2Plugin'. Anybody has an idea what that could be? And how that could be solved? Cheers, Lukas ===================================== Process: Squeak VM Opt [2368] Path: /Applications/Squeak/Squeak 4.1.1beta2U-2.app/Contents/MacOS/Squeak VM Opt Identifier: org.squeak.Squeak Version: Squeak VM 4.1.1b2 (4.1.1b2) Code Type: X86 (Native) Parent Process: launchd [129] Date/Time: 2009-06-28 11:39:58.825 +0200 OS Version: Mac OS X 10.5.7 (9J61) Report Version: 6 Anonymous UUID: 29E322B2-1485-4CD8-8566-727E56F50F71 Exception Type: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (SIGBUS) Exception Codes: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE at 0x0000000000000014 Crashed Thread: 0 Thread 0 Crashed: 0 de.impara.FT2Plugin 0x15299ffb FT_Request_Size + 47 (ftobjs.c:2352) 1 de.impara.FT2Plugin 0x1529a13c FT_Set_Pixel_Sizes + 90 (ftobjs.c:2448) 2 de.impara.FT2Plugin 0x1529510c primitiveSetPixelSizes + 172 (FT2Plugin.c:1653) Thread 1: 0 libSystem.B.dylib 0x910642e6 semaphore_timedwait_signal_trap + 10 1 libSystem.B.dylib 0x910962af _pthread_cond_wait + 1244 2 libSystem.B.dylib 0x91097b33 pthread_cond_timedwait_relative_np + 47 3 ...ple.CoreServices.CarbonCore 0x93817d96 TSWaitOnConditionTimedRelative + 246 4 ...ple.CoreServices.CarbonCore 0x93817b76 TSWaitOnSemaphoreCommon + 422 5 ...ple.CoreServices.CarbonCore 0x938489ac TimerThread + 74 6 libSystem.B.dylib 0x91095155 _pthread_start + 321 7 libSystem.B.dylib 0x91095012 thread_start + 34 Thread 0 crashed with X86 Thread State (32-bit): eax: 0x00000000 ebx: 0x1529506c ecx: 0x00000340 edx: 0xbfffe6dc edi: 0x000db0f0 esi: 0x0085e800 ebp: 0xbfffe6b8 esp: 0xbfffe690 ss: 0x0000001f efl: 0x00010297 eip: 0x15299ffb cs: 0x00000017 ds: 0x0000001f es: 0x0000001f fs: 0x00000000 gs: 0x00000037 cr2: 0x00000014 Binary Images: 0x1000 - 0x11dfe7 +org.squeak.Squeak Squeak VM 4.1.1b2 (4.1.1b2) <32d82d42f52666d1933dd0072ca15de2> /Applications/Squeak/Squeak 4.1.1beta2U-2.app/Contents/MacOS/Squeak VM Opt 0x15279000 - 0x15279ff0 +com.google.GearsEnabler ??? 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(???) /usr/lib/system/libmathCommon.A.dylib 0x973b4000 - 0x97440ff7 com.apple.LaunchServices 290.3 (290.6) <bdba267184df88bd5b8e2116ea903872> /System/Library/Frameworks/CoreServices.framework/Versions/A/Frameworks/LaunchServices.framework/Versions/A/LaunchServices 0x97441000 - 0x974cdff7 com.apple.framework.IOKit 1.5.2 (???) <97b9f9d584f48891377f0481b9104434> /System/Library/Frameworks/IOKit.framework/Versions/A/IOKit 0xfffe8000 - 0xfffebfff libobjc.A.dylib ??? (???) /usr/lib/libobjc.A.dylib 0xffff0000 - 0xffff1780 libSystem.B.dylib ??? (???) /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib ===================================== -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

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Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] The future of Squeak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT license clean)
by GÃ¶ran Krampe June 28, 2009

June 28, 2009

Hi! Casimiro de Almeida Barreto wrote: > Em 28-06-2009 07:23, GÃ¶ran Krampe escreveu: >> (...) >> Possibly true, but Smalltalk, Squeak, Etoys and even Croquet have been >> around for quite some time now - and we haven't seen any real >> explosion yet. Croquet was meant to "explode" but hasn't. So I am not >> holding my breath for "the day Squeak gets popular" :) >> > I guess there are several issues when "explosion" (in the sense of wide > acceptance & popularity) is a target for a project. I'll enumerate some > of them that came to my mind: Note that *I* don't really care for any "explosion". I was merely saying that waiting for it to happen in order to gain something from it - is probably foolish :) [SNIP of 1-5] Note: I don't agree with that list, but I get your point. > IMHO Squeak.org "stillness" is happening because a point was reached > when boring work is necessary. IMHO the board should be looking for Nah, how come Pharo is doing all those things then?? I don't agree. > corporate support in order to have resources to support the "boring > work". As an example: some years ago there was momentum for the use of I generally do not agree with those that think "corporate support" or "paid work" is the solution. Sorry, I just don't. I just want a Squeak that I can use and help improve and that has a reasonable commit process, some nice goals and a reasonable leadership. :) I don't want a company deciding what happens with Squeak. Definitely not. > Again, a key issue is that perhaps there is just not enough people to > support splitting projects. Again, IMHO that is one the issues that > complicated the life of croquet. Not to mention that much of croquet > related to 3D optimization and acceleration in cross platform > environment... That I can agree with - we are quite few. >> Oh, and a final note: >> >> But what if Squeak.org is abandoned and everyone moves to Pharo, what >> is so bad about letting that happen? It is NOT bad. But I think we >> could do it in a smoother way and actually turn this into something >> *positive*. The merge could be turned into a real BOOST to Squeak/Pharo. > If everybody goes to Pharo it won't necessarily be a problem. The > problem will be if key people stand in one side or the other. Right... So I didn't disagree with *everything* you wrote :) regards, GÃ¶ran

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Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] The future of Squeak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT license clean)
by GÃ¶ran Krampe June 28, 2009

June 28, 2009

Hi! Ian Trudel wrote: > 2009/6/28 GÃ¶ran Krampe <goran(a)krampe.se>: >> Possibly true, but Smalltalk, Squeak, Etoys and even Croquet have been >> around for quite some time now - and we haven't seen any real explosion yet. >> Croquet was meant to "explode" but hasn't. So I am not holding my breath for >> "the day Squeak gets popular" :) > > Sometimes being popular means doing normal things. Smalltalk is an > unusual programming language (in the sense of mainstream) with an > overly eccentric environment in Squeak. Then there are Croquet, Etoys, > and so on. It's hardly a break through if it's only "more" eccentric > than eccentric. Don't you think? Not sure what you mean there. > The look-and-feel is designed for children. It's colourful, joyful, it > bleeps and blink. How many professional developers are children? How > many children are on this list? Enough with that already! Can we have > a normal look-and-feel? A professional look-and-feel. =) Personally I like the colors. I also don't equal "normal" with "professional". But such is taste! > Squeak is stuck in some time warp, where the surrounding world is on > stand still. It should however consider that we are living in 2009 and > have needs of 2009. We need a different usability, developer tools and > we have different goals. Note that talking about what we "need" and what other people "want" is not really that fruitful. We get what we *do*, or in other words - if someone feels it is important enough to spend time on it - it will get done. Noone works on something because *someone else* told him to. > For example, Squeak hardly support the > requirements of my distributors, which makes it overly challenging for > me to consider Squeak as our platform of development. Elaborate? > Squeak doesn't need a killer app. It needs to be spruced up and put > back on track. Honey moon is over, it's time to get real. Hehe, I really don't agree. :) Squeak *is* real. We already have our killer app (Seaside). We do need to clean shit up though (and I am not talking about UI primarily) and get the improvement process working. Currently Squeak.org is getting smashed (again, I don't have hard numbers, but I think I am right) by Pharo when it comes to hard, concrete, nitty gritt work getting done. regards, GÃ¶ran

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Re: [Pharo-project] [squeak-dev] The future of Squeak & Pharo (was Re: [ANN] Pharo MIT license clean)
by GÃ¶ran Krampe June 28, 2009

June 28, 2009

Hi! StÃ©phane Rollandin wrote: > My point of view: > > Pharo people weren't happy with the way Squeak was developed, so they > started their own project and now its development goes well: good for > them. It seems like a lot of people are actually interested and working > in Pharo; again: good for them. "Them" is the wrong word. It is rather "a lot of us". And "good for us". > Now I do like Squeak better, so I stayed here (beside, it would be a > hell of a work to port my code to Pharo, with all the "cleaning up" that > happened there). There is always work in porting over to new versions of Squeak. If we cross pollinate then you will end up facing the exact same issue. And also, you can always "lag" a release or two - quite common for larger projects. > Why should I even consider letting Squeak die, or > merging it into Pharo? Because if the "trend" I am perceiving (I may be wrong) continues then there will be very few of us left working on the Squeak 3.10 lineage under the Squeak.org flag. And the fewer there are the more likely they will jump over too. > Of course cross-pollination between the two > project is something worth reaching for, but I can't see how Squeak > doing harakiri is an adequate response to this challenge. Well, if you consider a merge to be harakiri - then I agree it sounds frightening :) > Squeak development slowed down quite a bit. So what ? That's something > we can discuss here in squeak-dev. No urge to surrender to Pharo IMHO. IMHO this kind of phrasing and thinking - "urge to surrender" etc, is the wrong way of looking at it. It is not some kind of war! Remember that before Pharo was started all those developers were working on Squeak. We are ALL Squeakers. We ALL want Squeak in the large sense to move on and improve. We all want a good solid base to do our work in, and a nice community to share. We all want fast turnaround on bug fixes and contributions etc. I just want us to do the *smart* thing here. regards, GÃ¶ran

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[Pharo-project] [ANN] Pharo MIT license clean
by Adrian Lienhard June 28, 2009

June 28, 2009

Hi all, With the latest update, #10343, we have reached an important step towards Pharo 1.0. There is no method left in Pharo-core that is not license clean [1]. Methods from people that did not sign the agreement or did not release their code under SqueakL were removed or rewritten. There is a wiki page that describes how I did the audit [2]. Thanks to Gabriel for his help. Cheers, Adrian [1] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/ResultofRelicensing [2] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/LicenseCleanEffort ___________________ http://www.adrian-lienhard.ch/

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Re: [Pharo-project] FFI problem
by Mariano Martinez Peck June 28, 2009

June 28, 2009

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Andreas Raab <andreas.raab(a)gmx.de> wrote: > Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > >> Download latest Windows VM (Squeak 3.11.2) from Pharo webpage. Then >> evaluate ScriptLoader loadFFI and try to run FFI tests. The image will >> crash! >> > > Interesting. This appears to be a Pharo-only problem. I ran the FFI tests > using the 3.11.2 VM on the current 3.10.2 release image and they works fine. > I've also ran the test against a 3.10.2 closure converted image (on the > off-chance that it might be closure related) and the tests pass too. So I > don't really think it's an FFI problem. You'll probably have to ask Pharo > people to help you with the problem; the FFI appears to be fully functional > on both pre- and post-closure images. > Ok. Pharo people is in this mail. Let's wait if someone can help us. I don't know why in mi Windows machine the dump file is not generated :( Benoit St-Jean can you attach the complete dump file? I tried this in Linux and it doesn't crash my image. So, only windows :( Cheers, Mariano > > Cheers, > - Andreas >

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