February 2012 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Nearly limitless Image: revisited.
by Marcus Denker Feb. 29, 2012

Feb. 29, 2012

On Feb 29, 2012, at 1:35 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > > On 29 Feb 2012, at 12:58, Janko MivÅ¡ek wrote: > >> For Pharo there seems everyone is avoiding this idea, mostly because of >> image corruption fear. Well, we need to improve the robustness of Pharo >> image and VM then this fear will vanish. It is obviously doable, if VW >> is reliable enough, why not once Pharo? > > I am trying to be polite: remarks like this are unfair and not based on the experiences of most of the people in the Pharo community or of the companies using Pharo. It is perfectly possible to have stable long running servers based on Pharo. Sneaking in these phrases in simply spreading FUD. It's not fair to expect, for nothing, the same as you get from a very expensive product. Especially if even just entering a bug report is seemingly already too much to ask (!), while for VisualWorks, you have to pay real money. "It is obviously doable" has a differnt meaning with some Millions of EUR per year that one can spend for engineering than without. Without, it's *far* from obvious! Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

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Re: [Pharo-project] Nearly limitless Image: revisited.
by Marcus Denker Feb. 29, 2012

Feb. 29, 2012

On Feb 29, 2012, at 12:59 PM, Janko MivÅ¡ek wrote: > Hi Ted, > > I also support the image as a sole persistence idea and I'm actually > using it for years on VisualWorks. > > For Pharo there seems everyone is avoiding this idea, mostly because of > image corruption fear. Well, we need to improve the robustness of Pharo > image and VM then this fear will vanish. It is obviously doable, if VW > is reliable enough, why not once Pharo? > Someone needs to start fixing and improving. Why not, for example, you? Here is a link: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/list It's much better than talking. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

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[Pharo-project] MC and shared pools
by Igor Stasenko Feb. 29, 2012

Feb. 29, 2012

I just stumbled upon this.. I was assuming that it is perfectly fine to: - define a shared pool in package - make a class which using given pool in same package but when MC loads it , it looks like it doesn't care about loading order and if it loads the class which using pool first, it says that pool not exists and asks me to create it. if you create it, then when it loads the pool , it barks that given class already in system... i know that solution is to have 2 packages, 1 with pool, and another with classes which using them, but somehow i was assumed that it should work fine in single package.. So, here 2 questions: - does anybody knows if this worked ever? - do we need that? -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

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[Pharo-project] [update 1.4] #14369
by Marcus Denker Feb. 29, 2012

Feb. 29, 2012

14369 ----- Issue 5331: use the glamour style for pretty print http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5331 Issue 5396: Deprecate TTMorph classes http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5396 -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

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[Pharo-project] "Do not feed the trolls"
by Dale Henrichs Feb. 29, 2012

Feb. 29, 2012

>From Wikipedia: In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted".

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[Pharo-project] VNC client
by Norbert Hartl Feb. 29, 2012

Feb. 29, 2012

I wonder what vnc client do you use if you use pharo + RFB? I had a running via macports. Now that I'm about to switch to homebrew I have problems finding a working one. Be it in brew or app store, etc. thanks, Norbert

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Re: [Pharo-project] Nearly limitless Image: revisited.
by Janko MivÅ¡ek Feb. 29, 2012

Feb. 29, 2012

Hi Ted, I also support the image as a sole persistence idea and I'm actually using it for years on VisualWorks. For Pharo there seems everyone is avoiding this idea, mostly because of image corruption fear. Well, we need to improve the robustness of Pharo image and VM then this fear will vanish. It is obviously doable, if VW is reliable enough, why not once Pharo? Best regards Janko S, ted f.a. van gaalen piÅ¡e: > "I first used image persistence but the image grow too large.." > thanks for reminding, Norbert. > > > Hi all, > > perhaps you'll find me an idiot, I don't care. > (i know that I am: (class SelfReflection :o) ) > > Nevertheless, some brainstorming here. > > I've brought this up before, but it seems nobody is interested in this > topic.. why? > > it's about image size. > > Currently, Pharo 1.3-13315 at my 4 Gigabyte Debian amd64 Linux machine > reports > > memory 75,392,160 bytes > old 61,370,144 bytes (81.4%) > young 2,169,692 bytes (2.9000000000000004%) > used 63,539,836 bytes (84.30000000000001%) > free 11,852,324 bytes (15.700000000000001%) > > (nothing peculiar added, just the Seaside package and a few classes of > my own. ) > > So, if i understand this well I have only 11,8 megabytes to play with? > > To begin with: why is only 75 megabyte available in Pharo (or Squeak as > well) > when there is 4 gigabyte physical memory available on my machine?? > > Anyway, IMHO this very limited storage violates the Smalltalk-all-in-one > image ideal, > because with this limited storage one cannot avoid the use of external > data stores > like databases (of course, exception: there always will be import an > export of objects/data) > > External data storage is complex, unreliable and should be something of > the past. > I'd suggest: don't waste time with this. rather improve the Smalltalk > internal data handling. > > I wish to have a very large image so e.q. I can have an entire > company's administration > (client and accounting data etc.) alive in it. > I want to use Collections and descendants, not external databases. > So, everything within the image. > > The beautiful (although opinions may vary) principle > of a Smalltalk environment is Image Persistence, isn't it? > > IMHO this requires: > - virtually unlimited image memory size. > -no external databases like e.g. Mongo or DB2 whatever. > -no persistent external storage at all. > > -You should see the (currently still) faster database performance as a > challenge > to improve the Collection and other related data handling classes > > -You would have to completely restructure the architecture. > or just extend the address width: 64 bits? > > what about an image of virtually unlimited size > gigabytes so > > (for now, if it goes beyond the physical memory size (say 32 GB?) > one could use a VM that works with virtual storage based VM > Virtual storage was first in use successfully with IBM mainframes > in the 1970s (and still is) ) > > on the other hand, I estimate holographic? physical memory > going in Terabytes is about to be available in 5-10 years from now. > blindingly fast, compared with today's standards. > > So, one has about 5 years to come up with such a system :o) > if one does, Smalltalk is ahead of everything then.. > > Don't laugh. One didn't even dream of 4 gigabytes of memory > during the Commodore 64 era. 1982-1994. > > In short: what would have to be changed to enable this? > > Some thoughts and speculations? > Anyone for tennis? > > Thanks > Ted > > > > > > -- Janko MivÅ¡ek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

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[Pharo-project] Who is using Fuel?
by Mariano Martinez Peck Feb. 29, 2012

Feb. 29, 2012

Of course, not the fuel you use to go to work every day ;) I am talking about Fuel serializer. In particular, I wonder if our page deserves an update: rmod.lille.inria.fr/web/pier/software/Fuel/Software-using-Fuel Let me know if there is something I should add. Thanks, -- Mariano http://marianopeck.wordpress.com

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[Pharo-project] It would be me first
by Igor Stasenko Feb. 29, 2012

Feb. 29, 2012

saying that SqueakSource down. or it is down only for me , such an unlucky guy? :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.

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[Pharo-project] [update 1.4] #14367, #14368
by Marcus Denker Feb. 29, 2012

Feb. 29, 2012

14367 ----- Issue 5415: Select the first entry in the InspectorThanks to camillobruni http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5415 14368 ----- Issue 5421: Deprecate BlockContext http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5421 Issue 5420: Remove MidiPrimTester http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5420 Issue 5419: clean changeset conflict checker http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5419 Issue 5411: halt: deprecated in Pharo 1.4 ... bring it back http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=5411 -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

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