December 2008 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] Inclusion of OB-Tools inside Pharo
by Bill Schwab Dec. 22, 2008

Dec. 22, 2008

Stef, One nice thing about the new browser is the RB integration. Given my general aversion to having it rewrite my code (showing no respect at all for the dated comments therein), I'm an unlikely advocate. Still, I use the RB for up/down refactorings (no rewrites needed), and will sometimes turn it loose on new code that has not had time to accumulate comments of value. Others would consider its absence a showstopper. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 273-6785 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr 12/22/08 7:05 AM >>> I think that we should pay attention of the ratio of effort and number of people participating. My take would be to not include tools if they are not complete and at the same time may be create a group of people working on an specific issue for the next milestone. In the long run I would like to have less little bug fixes vs main improvements even if the little fixes are important. one of the question is how can we make significant progress as an open source project. Stef On Dec 22, 2008, at 11:30 AM, Michael Roberts wrote: > I'm interested at least in a discussion on the OB debugger. This is > because > > 1) there are definitely some bugs in the core debugger. Is it worth > trying to fix them? I think yes, but I'm not sure I have the skills > to identify and fix them. I just know from using the core debugger it > sure does some strange things. > 2) The core debugger is missing features: stack variables, arguments, > breakpoints. How hard is it to modify the core one? > 3) do we have enough volunteer effort to maintain two debuggers? I'm > not sure we do. > > I have only briefly used the ob debugger and I got a bit confused with > part of the UI so i'll need to look at it some more. What are folks > thoughts on this key part of functionality? > > Then more generally i'm not sure it makes sense to have different > tools in the core vs the dev image. I have to admit to not fully > understanding the 1.0 release plan but looking fwds to say 2.0, 3.0 > there would be benefit from pushing OB + tools into the core and just > maintaining a single high quality set of tools across all variant > images? > > cheers, > > Mike > > On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Damien Cassou <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com > > wrote: >> On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Bill Schwab >> <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: >>> Sounds good. And in that case (OB Tools at the end of the list), >>> I urge >>> serious attention to having a notifier. Learning from history, >>> and all >>> that. >> >> Hi Bill, >> >> I decided to load OB-Tools (a reimplementation of some tools using >> the >> ob framework) inside the pharo-dev images. I put OB-Tools inside the >> list of packages that will be part of the official Pharo >> distribution. >> This was a mistake because no discussion happened about this package >> at all on this mailing list. I've just moved OB-Tools to the list of >> pending packages. Now, we have to discuss (in this new thread): >> >> - Do we want an OB-based version of the tools inside Pharo? >> - Do we want all tools implemented by Lukas or just some of them? >> - What features are missing? >> - What are the bugs? >> - Who maintains this package? >> >> -- >> Damien Cassou >> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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Re: [Pharo-project] Inclusion of OB-Tools inside Pharo
by Bill Schwab Dec. 22, 2008

Dec. 22, 2008

David, The glaring examples are probably comments in cascades. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 273-6785 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> pennell.david(a)gmail.com 12/22/08 11:48 AM >>> Bill, Can you give an example of the kind of comments that RB doesn't respect for you? I've used RB extensively on VW, but not much at all on Squeak yet. It had problems with end of line comments, but didn't do badly with comments on there own line. I adopted to its limitations rather than try to fix it because the benefits were so large and I was too busy/lazy/etc. -david On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 8:34 AM, Bill Schwab <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > Stef, > > One nice thing about the new browser is the RB integration. Given my > general aversion to having it rewrite my code (showing no respect at all > for the dated comments therein), I'm an unlikely advocate. Still, I use > the RB for up/down refactorings (no rewrites needed), and will sometimes > turn it loose on new code that has not had time to accumulate comments > of value. Others would consider its absence a showstopper. > > Bill > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 273-6785 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > > >>> stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr 12/22/08 7:05 AM >>> > I think that we should pay attention of the ratio > of effort and number of people participating. > > My take would be to not include tools if they are not complete > and at the same time may be create a group of people working on an > specific > issue for the next milestone. > In the long run I would like to have less little bug fixes vs main > improvements > even if the little fixes are important. > one of the question is how can we make significant progress as an open > source project. > > Stef > > > On Dec 22, 2008, at 11:30 AM, Michael Roberts wrote: > > > I'm interested at least in a discussion on the OB debugger. This is > > because > > > > 1) there are definitely some bugs in the core debugger. Is it worth > > trying to fix them? I think yes, but I'm not sure I have the skills > > to identify and fix them. I just know from using the core debugger it > > sure does some strange things. > > 2) The core debugger is missing features: stack variables, arguments, > > breakpoints. How hard is it to modify the core one? > > 3) do we have enough volunteer effort to maintain two debuggers? I'm > > not sure we do. > > > > I have only briefly used the ob debugger and I got a bit confused with > > part of the UI so i'll need to look at it some more. What are folks > > thoughts on this key part of functionality? > > > > Then more generally i'm not sure it makes sense to have different > > tools in the core vs the dev image. I have to admit to not fully > > understanding the 1.0 release plan but looking fwds to say 2.0, 3.0 > > there would be benefit from pushing OB + tools into the core and just > > maintaining a single high quality set of tools across all variant > > images? > > > > cheers, > > > > Mike > > > > On Mon, Dec 22, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Damien Cassou > <damien.cassou(a)gmail.com > > > wrote: > >> On Sun, Dec 21, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Bill Schwab > >> <BSchwab(a)anest.ufl.edu> wrote: > >>> Sounds good. And in that case (OB Tools at the end of the list), > >>> I urge > >>> serious attention to having a notifier. Learning from history, > >>> and all > >>> that. > >> > >> Hi Bill, > >> > >> I decided to load OB-Tools (a reimplementation of some tools using > >> the > >> ob framework) inside the pharo-dev images. I put OB-Tools inside the > >> list of packages that will be part of the official Pharo > >> distribution. > >> This was a mistake because no discussion happened about this package > >> at all on this mailing list. I've just moved OB-Tools to the list of > >> pending packages. Now, we have to discuss (in this new thread): > >> > >> - Do we want an OB-based version of the tools inside Pharo? > >> - Do we want all tools implemented by Lukas or just some of them? > >> - What features are missing? > >> - What are the bugs? > >> - Who maintains this package? > >> > >> -- > >> Damien Cassou > >> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Pharo-project mailing list > >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >

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[Pharo-project] [ANN] 10198 and 10199
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Dec. 22, 2008

Dec. 22, 2008

Hi two updates - 10198 forceClass: removal on SUnitGui (pavel krivanek) SmallLand update removal (mike Roberts) More tests on Collection - 10199 DNU eliot Fixes HalosDisable Stef

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[Pharo-project] Universes and Installer?
by Alexandre Bergel Dec. 22, 2008

Dec. 22, 2008

Dear List, If I execute "Installer universe" in a workspace, an error "Universes code not present" is signaled . Does this mean that only a subset of Installer is present in Pharo-Core? On the Installer squeaksource repository there is a package Universes. It looks like to be the right candidate. However, some extensions on StringSocket need to be present. I do not know where to get them from. http://www.squeaksource.com/Installer.html does not say much on this. Keith? Do I miss something? Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

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Re: [Pharo-project] Notifiers
by Bill Schwab Dec. 22, 2008

Dec. 22, 2008

Stef, If it comes to that, I will be happy to do so. However, I know NOTHING about OB, so it will take some time. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 273-6785 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr 12/22/08 3:15 AM >>> Send the code. Stef On Dec 21, 2008, at 11:44 PM, Bill Schwab wrote: > Sounds good. And in that case (OB Tools at the end of the list), I > urge > serious attention to having a notifier. Learning from history, and > all > that. > > Bill > > > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 273-6785 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > >>>> adi(a)netstyle.ch 12/21/08 5:31 PM >>> > Here is an answer for "what is Pharo?" > > There will be two images: > "Pharo-Core": the image in which the development of Pharo takes place > "Pharo": the image to develop your application with (= "Pharo-Core" + > IDE tools [1]) > > "Pharo" is the image that will be officially shipped (packaged as a > one-click image). "Pharo-Core" on the other hand will be important for > deployment as it has a low memory footprint. > > Cheers, > Adrian > > [1] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Packages > > > On Dec 21, 2008, at 15:46 , Bill Schwab wrote: > >> Lukas, >> >> You are correct to question "what is Pharo?" We cannot hope to >> ensure >> that everything anyone ever does with Pharo will work - those kinds >> of >> promises are made only during political campaigns :) But, note the >> recent discussion of package integrity. It should be as easy as >> possible to install anything one wants, but the things that Pharo >> invites the user to install should be solid. Certainly, the >> development >> tools should fall into that category. >> >> For example, I have a love/hate relationship with the RB, but I >> certainly hope to see it integrated into Pharo. But given a choice >> between a polished presentation of the RB commands and a stable >> system, >> I'll go for the stable system. We should have both. >> >> Bill >> >> >> >> >> Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. >> University of Florida >> Department of Anesthesiology >> PO Box 100254 >> Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 >> >> Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu >> Tel: (352) 273-6785 >> FAX: (352) 392-7029 >> >>>>> renggli(a)gmail.com 12/21/08 3:07 AM >>> >>> My understanding is that the OB tool set is the presumptive choice >>> for >>> Pharo - unless I'm wrong, that makes this a Pharo related topic, if >> only >>> to reopen the choice in light of your position. >> >> I don't know which is the official Pharo image? There is a plain one >> without any extras loaded that the Pharo team uses for their >> releases, >> and then there is one with additional tools loaded by Damien that >> also >> contains OB-Tools. >> >>> Do as you want, but >>> Object Arts had this idea and very quickly decided the simpler >> notifier >>> had a very essential role. They left the option, activated the >> notifier >>> by default, and strongly warned against deactivating it. That was >> based >>> on being bitten by the kinds of concerns I have documented here. >> >> Don't get me wrong. Feel free to add this preference and the >> additional dialog, but don't expect me to do it: >> >> http://mail.wiresong.ca/pipermail/ob-dev/2008-August/000580.html >> >> Lukas >> >> -- >> Lukas Renggli >> http://www.lukas-renggli.ch >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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[Pharo-project] What does HODataBase do?
by Piers Cawley Dec. 22, 2008

Dec. 22, 2008

So, because I'm perverse like that, and because it's there, I grabbed Damian's latest dev-image and ran the Code Critics against everything in the image. Once the bottom of my macbook had returned to a bearable temperature, I started going through the results and found scads of references to the "undeclared variable" HODataBase and other HO* names, mostly in the OBEnriched family of classes. Does anyone have any idea what's going on?

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[Pharo-project] knowing all the class using a trait?
by StÃ©phane Ducasse Dec. 22, 2008

Dec. 22, 2008

Hi david is there a way to know the classes that use a given trait? Stef

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Re: [Pharo-project] Notifiers
by Bill Schwab Dec. 22, 2008

Dec. 22, 2008

Sounds good. And in that case (OB Tools at the end of the list), I urge serious attention to having a notifier. Learning from history, and all that. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 273-6785 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> adi(a)netstyle.ch 12/21/08 5:31 PM >>> Here is an answer for "what is Pharo?" There will be two images: "Pharo-Core": the image in which the development of Pharo takes place "Pharo": the image to develop your application with (= "Pharo-Core" + IDE tools [1]) "Pharo" is the image that will be officially shipped (packaged as a one-click image). "Pharo-Core" on the other hand will be important for deployment as it has a low memory footprint. Cheers, Adrian [1] http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Packages On Dec 21, 2008, at 15:46 , Bill Schwab wrote: > Lukas, > > You are correct to question "what is Pharo?" We cannot hope to ensure > that everything anyone ever does with Pharo will work - those kinds of > promises are made only during political campaigns :) But, note the > recent discussion of package integrity. It should be as easy as > possible to install anything one wants, but the things that Pharo > invites the user to install should be solid. Certainly, the > development > tools should fall into that category. > > For example, I have a love/hate relationship with the RB, but I > certainly hope to see it integrated into Pharo. But given a choice > between a polished presentation of the RB commands and a stable > system, > I'll go for the stable system. We should have both. > > Bill > > > > > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. > University of Florida > Department of Anesthesiology > PO Box 100254 > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 > > Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu > Tel: (352) 273-6785 > FAX: (352) 392-7029 > >>>> renggli(a)gmail.com 12/21/08 3:07 AM >>> >> My understanding is that the OB tool set is the presumptive choice >> for >> Pharo - unless I'm wrong, that makes this a Pharo related topic, if > only >> to reopen the choice in light of your position. > > I don't know which is the official Pharo image? There is a plain one > without any extras loaded that the Pharo team uses for their releases, > and then there is one with additional tools loaded by Damien that also > contains OB-Tools. > >> Do as you want, but >> Object Arts had this idea and very quickly decided the simpler > notifier >> had a very essential role. They left the option, activated the > notifier >> by default, and strongly warned against deactivating it. That was > based >> on being bitten by the kinds of concerns I have documented here. > > Don't get me wrong. Feel free to add this preference and the > additional dialog, but don't expect me to do it: > > http://mail.wiresong.ca/pipermail/ob-dev/2008-August/000580.html > > Lukas > > -- > Lukas Renggli > http://www.lukas-renggli.ch > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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Dec. 22, 2008

:) Begin forwarded message: > From: "Joey Hurst" <jhurstus(a)gmail.com> > Date: December 22, 2008 7:36:57 AM CEST > To: schaerli(a)iam.unibe.ch, oscar(a)iam.unibe.ch, ducasse(a)iam.unibe.ch, wuyts(a)iam.unibe.ch > , black(a)cse.ogi.edu > Subject: javascript traits implementation > > Nathanael, Oscar, Stephane, Roel, and Andrew, > > I recently implemented traits in the JavaScript programming language > based on the descriptions in a number of your research papers. If > you're interested, the code is available under an open source > license and hosted at: http://code.google.com/p/jstraits/ > > I've posted some extended quotes from your paper "Traits: A > Mechanism for Fine-grained Reuse" as documentation on the website > linked above. I wanted to make sure that's ok with you all. The > quotes are properly attributed and link back to the original paper. > > Also, this is a bit of a stretch, but I would love to get feedback > from any of you on my implementation, especially with regards to > fidelity between my implementation of traits and your conception of > traits. > > Thanks for your research on this topic. The traits papers were all > very helpful, and the concept itself seems to be very useful. > > -Joey Hurst

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Re: [Pharo-project] Notifiers
by Bill Schwab Dec. 21, 2008

Dec. 21, 2008

Lukas, You are correct to question "what is Pharo?" We cannot hope to ensure that everything anyone ever does with Pharo will work - those kinds of promises are made only during political campaigns :) But, note the recent discussion of package integrity. It should be as easy as possible to install anything one wants, but the things that Pharo invites the user to install should be solid. Certainly, the development tools should fall into that category. For example, I have a love/hate relationship with the RB, but I certainly hope to see it integrated into Pharo. But given a choice between a polished presentation of the RB commands and a stable system, I'll go for the stable system. We should have both. Bill Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D. University of Florida Department of Anesthesiology PO Box 100254 Gainesville, FL 32610-0254 Email: bschwab(a)anest.ufl.edu Tel: (352) 273-6785 FAX: (352) 392-7029 >>> renggli(a)gmail.com 12/21/08 3:07 AM >>> > My understanding is that the OB tool set is the presumptive choice for > Pharo - unless I'm wrong, that makes this a Pharo related topic, if only > to reopen the choice in light of your position. I don't know which is the official Pharo image? There is a plain one without any extras loaded that the Pharo team uses for their releases, and then there is one with additional tools loaded by Damien that also contains OB-Tools. > Do as you want, but > Object Arts had this idea and very quickly decided the simpler notifier > had a very essential role. They left the option, activated the notifier > by default, and strongly warned against deactivating it. That was based > on being bitten by the kinds of concerns I have documented here. Don't get me wrong. Feel free to add this preference and the additional dialog, but don't expect me to do it: http://mail.wiresong.ca/pipermail/ob-dev/2008-August/000580.html Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list Pharo-project(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project

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