April 2018 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?
by Ben Coman April 13, 2018

April 13, 2018

On 13 April 2018 at 13:53, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users < pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I > really don't know where we're heading. > > Do we really need 8 delay schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, > DelayMillisecondScheduler, DelayNullScheduler, > DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, > DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, > DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ? > This should have been cleaned up a while ago. Thanks for the bump. I'll get to it. However note, that half of those have not more than two methods, so are not contributing much to the size of the Image. > Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's > the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. > I guess you are looking for... https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/R… cheers -ben

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Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?
by phil＠highoctane.be April 13, 2018

April 13, 2018

It is true that there are many things in there. New tools have to be finished before the old ones can be removed (there was a time where refactorings were not in Calypso). But for a real project, one is settling for a version and a toolset. I am not really keen to migrate Pharo projects from one version to another and some deprecations seems rather gratuitous sometimes. The world also moves forward and it shows in the image. I think that Iceberg has swallowed a lot of bandwidth and as a result other elements are in need of more love. Pharo7 is unreleased yet. Some say something is great by version 10. 3 versions to go. I consider Pharo 7 as a great piece of kit but unusable for my current work. There are many new things to learn in there. When is too much too much? Also, simplifications are breaking things in unexpected ways (like the #atEnd thing). I am glad 6.1 gets backports and new releases for sure. Phil On Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 07:53 Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users < pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > Hello guys, > > Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I > really don't know where we're heading. > > When Pharo started, the goal was to depart from Squeak and do a *major > clean up* of all the code, especially Morphic. The promise of a new, clean > & lean Smalltalk attracted a lot of people. And then... > > I'm looking at the Pharo 7.0 image right now and I just don't get where > we're heading. Every Pharo release gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger. I > don't mind the environment getting bigger if it adds functionalities or new > tools but that's not quite the case here. LOTS of stuff is just duplicated. > > Do we really need 2 code completion classes (NECController, NOCController) > ? Do we really need 2 system browsers (Nautilus, Calypso)? Do we really > need 2 compilers (OpalCompiler, Compiler) ? Do we really need 8 delay > schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, DelayMillisecondScheduler, > DelayNullScheduler, DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, > DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, > DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ? Do we really need 2 inspectors > (GTInspector, EyeInspector) ? Do we really need 2 workspaces > (GTPlayground, Workspace) ? Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera. I could go > on, and on, and on... > > Pharo 5.1 had 5885 classes. Pharo 6.1 had 6481 classes. Pharo 7.0 alpha > has 7612 classes. Can you see a trend? > > Pharo 5.1 had 416 preference settings. Pharo 6.1 had 494 preference > settings. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 662 preference settings. Can you see a trend? > > Pharo 5.1 had a 27.44 MB image. Pharo 6.1 had a 35.18 MB image. Pharo 7.0 > alpha has a 47.97 MB image. Can you see a trend? > > Add to that the fact that Pharo is a nightmare when you want to port > code. Just with the 7.0 release, 61 classes will be deprecated (and lots > more to come if you search for the string "deprecated" into the code, most > of the time hidden in the comments of the > soon-to-be-deprecated-in-Pharo-8-I-guess classes). > > You have code that deals with sockets, should you use the old Socket > classes or convert everything to Zodiac? And why do we keep both > "frameworks" in the image ? Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with > "old socket classes" a looooooong time ago anyway! > > You have code that deals with dependencies, should you use the old > dependents mechanism or convert everything to announcements? > > UI speaking, what framework should anyone use ? Athens? Something else? > > You have code that deals with streams, should you use the old stream > classes or convert everything to Zinc ? And why do we keep both > "frameworks" in the image ? Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with the > old stream classes a looooooong time ago anyway! > > So what's the plan? For instance, should I keep using the Nautilus > Browser or I should switch to the Calypso browser and get used to it > because Nautilus will be deprecated? Or should I just don't care because a > third system browser will be added in Pharo 8 just because "it's cool, > let's add this one too!" ? > > Couldn't we just decide on what's "official" and what's a goodie or an > external optional tool/package/framework the same way all other Smalltalks > do? If you say Calypso is the official & supported browser, fine! Then > just get Nautilus out of the image, create a nice loadable package for it > and if someone prefers Nautilus, they'll just have to load it into the > image, the same way VW has a gazillion optional tools/packages/frameworks > you can load from a parcel! > > Whenever I get asked a simple question by a newbie like "Oh, which system > browser should I use?", quite frankly, I don't know what to answer. Did we > include Calypso to deprecate Nautilus later? Is Calypso just a proof of > concept? Is it just an optional tool? What about all those delay > schedulers? > > "I loaded this code from SqueakSource and it just doesn't work". Should I > help the guy to fix it or just tell him to convert all the code to the > corresponding framework in Pharo? > > Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's > the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. > > > ----------------- > BenoÃ®t St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Twitter: @BenLeChialeux > Pinterest: benoitstjean > Instagram: Chef_Benito > IRC: lamneth > Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com > "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) >

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Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?
by Marcus Denker April 13, 2018

April 13, 2018

> On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:26, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > > > From: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ? > Date: 13 April 2018 at 11:26:09 CEST > To: Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > Reply-To: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> > > > BTW, why put an .exe installer for Windows available when it crashes right from the start? It just doesn't work at all. Period. For everyone. > > And I thought looking for senders of a method was something we mastered a long time ago, like starting with Smalltalk-76. Am I supposed to assume that everything, even basic functionalities, are all broken because it's labeled "alphaâ ? We have already a issue tracker entry with a description of a fix: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/21518/New-Traits-brings-wrong-behaviour-t… <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/21518/New-Traits-brings-wrong-behaviour-t…> TODO: turn that description into code and make a Pull Request. Marcus

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Progress bar for ZnClient>>#downloadTo:
by Ben Coman April 13, 2018

April 13, 2018

I see ZnClient >> downloadTo: calls ZnClient >> downloadEntityTo: which uses #withProgressDo: which indicates a progress bar might appear. But... ZnClient new url: ' https://download.libsodium.org/libsodium/releases/ libsodium-1.0.16-msvc.zip' ; downloadTo: FileLocator imageDirectory. doesn't show a progress bar. What is the recommended way to display one? cheers -ben

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Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?
by ClÃ©ment Bera April 13, 2018

April 13, 2018

"Alpha software can be unstable and could cause crashes or data loss" [1] Experiencing instability, crashes and data loss in the alpha version of a software, including Pharo alpha, is to be expected and nothing to be surprised about. The support of the Pharo stable version (currently 6.1) has significantly improved in the past year. Many fixes and enhancements were back-ported from Pharo 7 to Pharo 6.1. Based on your comments, it seems that you have issues because you are not using the version of Pharo that fits your needs (i.e. the stable version). Checking the Pharo website [2], it seems there are *no* download links to the alpha version so far because it's not considered stable enough. Where did you get a link to download Pharo 7 alpha ? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle [2] https://pharo.org/download On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users < pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> > To: Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:26:09 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ? > BTW, why put an .exe installer for Windows available when it crashes right > from the start? It just doesn't work at all. Period. For everyone. > > And I thought looking for senders of a method was something we mastered a > long time ago, like starting with Smalltalk-76. Am I supposed to assume > that everything, even basic functionalities, are all broken because it's > labeled "alpha" ? > > > ----------------- > BenoÃ®t St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Twitter: @BenLeChialeux > Pinterest: benoitstjean > Instagram: Chef_Benito > IRC: lamneth > Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com > "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) > > > On Friday, April 13, 2018, 5:20:28 a.m. EDT, Esteban Lorenzano < > estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:07, Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > I'm on Windows 10, using Pharo 7.0 alpha 32 bit. > > > and btwâ¦ which part of ALPHA you do not get? > > Esteban > > -- ClÃ©ment BÃ©ra https://clementbera.github.io/ https://clementbera.wordpress.com/

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Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?
by Cyril Ferlicot D. April 13, 2018

April 13, 2018

On 13/04/2018 11:26, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users wrote: Do you expect a cleaning of the Kernel without any break during alpha version? This version introduce a new message browser, new Traits, more modularization of the kernel and some cleaning of the Kernel. I see a lot of reason why it might break during the alpha version. -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr

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Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?
by Cyril Ferlicot D. April 13, 2018

April 13, 2018

On 13/04/2018 11:07, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users wrote: "Can I at least expect to be able to save code in my local Monticello repository ? It bombs. I just reported a bug!" "Can I expect that when looking for implementors of a method things still work? I get duplicates (see attached file)." => The meaning of alpha is that things like this can happen often. Else it would be a beta or a release version. But if you stick to use it, the bug reports are really welcomed! For the windows launcher indeed there is weird behaviour and Christophe is working on it when he gets bug reports. (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/issues) "Can I expect reading input from the console to work on Windows? It doesn't." What do you mean by that? Having Pharo running and the user sending input from it's CMD? I never saw an application doing that on windows. "Can I expect to be able to contribute ? That is kinda sad but all the cool scripts out there are .sh files." Which scripts? I contribute to Pharo from windows 7 and windows 10 without any script. Sometimes I have some troubles but it's only natural during the version that change all the contribution process the time it stabilize. If you have troubles on windows can you open issues please? Because most of the time I see that people complain about some bugs but some of those bugs never got a bug report. -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr

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Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?
by Cyril Ferlicot D. April 13, 2018

April 13, 2018

On 13/04/2018 07:53, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users wrote: Hi, I don't have time to answer to everything but I can give some details: - Nautilus will be removed when Calypso will be really stable (During the Calypso development if calypso breaks, you need an other browser to replace it) - The old compiler will be removed as an external project (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/R…) - I think it's planned to remove the EyeInspector - Kommiter and Versionner will also be removed in next versions of Pharo "Pharo 5.1 had 5885 classes. Pharo 6.1 had 6481 classes. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 7612 classes." In general I do not like metrics in term of number of classes because I prefer a system with 7500 classes of 50 lines of code than a system of 6000 classes of 300 lines of codes. "Pharo 5.1 had 416 preference settings. Pharo 6.1 had 494 preference settings. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 662 preference settings." The number of settings is not a bad thing if it's well organized. The current problem is not the number of settings, it's more their organization. Have a nice day. :) -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr

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Frozen at start up
by Hilaire April 12, 2018

April 12, 2018

Hi, I have this strange situation with a DrGeo built against P7, where DrGeo starts, but then get frozen with this message. Strangely the start seems not to have completed as the UI messages are not localized in French. What is strange, on my PC where I built the app, this problem does not occur. Any idea? Thanks Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

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To be there or not to be there
by Hilaire April 12, 2018

April 12, 2018

Hello, I have re-organized the packages and classes in DrGeo with Calypso. An now I come to a situation where methods seems to be there without been there. For example DrGeoWindow>>newTable: methods, - Calypso can browse it and can show its implementor - Nautilus can browse it and can NOT show its implementor - and more importantly when exported to tonel file, it is missing ! Who knows what else methods are missing. See screenshot. Any idea? Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

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