- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-project] glamour and pharo
by Stephan Eggermont Jan. 1, 2012

Jan. 1, 2012

There are a number of separate problems here, I think. Mixing them up makes the situation a bit complex. I'll try separating them here. At what abstraction level should the basic tools be build. From my point of view, Glamour provides the right level. It is very easy to build browsers and it is easy to keep them maintainable. When the underlying stack is going to be replaced it makes sense to have an abstraction layer that is is easy to implement on both the old and the new stack. The alternatives (Morphic, PolyMorph, OmniBrowser, ToolBuilder) are much less accessible. OmniBrowser looks much more comprehensive, but I don't feel qualified to comment on its usability as abstraction layer. I have taken a look at creating a google issue browser with Glamour (before ssl support) and think the committer workflow should be able to be improved with a few specialized Glamour browsers. But my opinion does not matter so much. That decision should be taken by the people maintaining the core of Pharo. Does Glamour provide enough functionality to build a whole tool chain? The focus of Glamour is on navigation in a single window, the language for updating and editing is limited. Drag-and-drop support is missing. Should the programming style of Glamour be the style to build basic tools in Pharo? Would it be better to use something more similar to the Seaside canvas style? The behavior change based on the number of block parameters is very powerful but imho also confusing. On the other hand I'm pretty sure HelpBrowser initWindow is worse than the equivalent Glamour code would be. At the moment the modularization of Pharo is not yet good enough. It is not easy enough to (de)compose images, so the maintainers need to have in the core image code to create user interfaces (web-based :) or direct). When we can create very small images and work with them using remote tools, this need will disappear. Committing to a tool chain build on top of Glamour would mean either back porting Glamour to earlier versions of Squeak/Pharo, so the new tools can replace the old ones everywhere, or breaking old tools and having to maintain them all ourselves. That is, if current maintainers agree with that. Happy new year, Stephan

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[Pharo-project] seaside and pharo (was: glamour and pharo)
by Lukas Renggli Jan. 1, 2012

Jan. 1, 2012

Let's take this on the Pharo mailing list. I do think that Seaside should be considered for being part of the Pharo infrastructure. At least the Core and the basic HTML rendering (i.e., without JQuery, Magritte and Pier). And I also think your analysis is not accurate. Here is why (I apologize for the long list): 1. Seaside is quite well documented. There are two books describing it. There are a tone of examples documenting all sorts of features. There comments are not as good as they could be, but there are lots of comments. 2. It is quite well tested. This part can be improved, but the core has some 80% coverage. 3. I am not the only one that knows how to mingle with it. To give some examples, more than 30 people helped fixing some intricate bugs directly in the core (http://www.seaside.st/community/contributors) I would also mention that countless student projects are on Squeaksource. So, maybe it's not that difficult. 4. The core is quite stable since more than 10 years. There were changes, but they were mostly related to new features and bug fixes. 5. The main point of using this infrastructure is not to replace Morphic, and to empower more people to build more applications. For example, the Seaside counter has less than 5 lines of code in total (and one instance variable only). This is really tiny for the amount of things it offers (you can even step through it with a debugger). And it is highly extensible (subclassing), too. 6. It's actually not that large: the core has 152 classes, and if you consider all the other packages, helper classes and specialized frameworks (but without the example code), you get some 1162 classes. 7. But, perhaps the most important part is that there have been literally thousands of applications built on top of it. Not all of them are useful now, but they were when they were built. And it seems that people can build one quite fast without much knowledge of the web either. That is the whole point of this infrastructure. Esteban even used it for building commercial applications. I built a couple, too. The whole of Pier (SmallWiki) is now using this infrastructure, too. I am not saying that Seaside is perfect. There are quite a couple of things I would like to enhance (for example, the AJAX ideas from Reef, or the components from ExtJS), but it has proved to be quite solid until now. So, before dismissing Seaside, perhaps it would be useful to actually look into it. Cheers, Lukas PS: If you don't like Seaside, I might have some other additions to pharo core ready that fit as well into the template ... On 31 December 2011 17:13, Tudor Girba <tudor(a)tudorgirba.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Let's take this on the Pharo mailing list. > > I do think that Glamour should be considered for being part of the Pharo infrastructure. At least the Core and the basic Morphic rendering (i.e., without Mondrian, EyeSee and Magritte). > > And I also think your analysis is not accurate. Here is why (I apologize for the long list): > > 1. Glamour is quite well documented. There is a chapter describing it. There are a tone of examples documenting all sorts of features. There comments are not as good as they could be, but there are comments, and I can help documenting more. > > 2. It is quite well tested. This part can be improved, but the core has some 80% coverage. > > 3. I am not the only one that knows how to mingle with it. To give some examples, Jorge, Damien (Cassou) and Esteban helped fixing some intricate bugs directly in the core. Lukas built the first Seaside rendering quite fast. I would also mention that as a student, Andrei Chis took about 1 month of work to produce a working version of a Seaside rendering almost from scratch. So, maybe it's not that difficult. > > 4. The core is quite stable since more than 1 year. There were changes, but they were mostly related to bug fixes. > > 5. The main point of using this infrastructure is not to replace Morphic, but it is to limit the maintenance of the browsers, and to empower more people to build more browsers. For example, the Glamorous Inspector has less than 200 lines of code in total. This is really tiny for the amount of things it offers. And it is highly extensible, too. > > 6. It's actually not that large: the core has 36 classes, and if you consider all the other presentations, helper classes and specialized browsers (but without the rendering code), you get some 93 classes. > > 7. But, perhaps the most important part is that there have been literally hundreds of browsers built on top of it. Not all of them are useful now, but they were when they were built. And it seems that people can build one quite fast without much knowledge of the internals either. That is the whole point of this infrastructure. Esteban even used it for building commercial applications. I built a couple, too. The whole of Moose is now using this infrastructure, too. > > > I am not saying that Glamour is perfect. There are quite a couple of things I would like to enhance (for example, the request ideas from Omnibrowser, or the wizard workflows from Merlin), but it has proved to be quite solid until now. > > So, before dismissing Glamour, perhaps it would be useful to actually look into it. > > Cheers, > Doru > > >> On Dec 31, 2011, at 1:00 PM, Tudor Girba wrote: >> >>> Hi Stef, >>> >>> You seem to say that it is bad that Glamour provides a good infrastructure that appeals to people. Maybe a better conclusion is that Glamour is something to be considered for the infrastructure of Pharo. >> >> Do you think so? >> I do not think that we can base our infrastructure on something that only one person understand and can modify. >> You will tell that this is the same for Morphic but this is not true. >> >> Stef >> > > -- > www.tudorgirba.com > > "Beauty is where we see it." > -- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch

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[Pharo-project] Happy new year..
by Krishsmalltalk Jan. 1, 2012

Jan. 1, 2012

Wishing all Pharoer's a very warm n happy new year Since last few weeks, I have been experimenting with Pharo as a tablet interface inside a tiny core Linux. The dev though happens on ubuntu. Some more playing around for a group of trainees with pharo on windows 7, platform I do not very much like. How far is it a nice to have framework that provides for a complete UI, IDE like a tablet interface and behaves akin to android that has it's own AppStore, and application launcher in full screen on icon click. Anyone can download the base, and proceed to download the app source, files archive thru an app installer, that verifies , validates and installs as well as creates a launcher icon ( I will provide the screenshots once I have them fine tuned) Rest of ideas and process are similar to android marketplace or iStore, with definite controls on absolute stability and experience of the apps Some observations i will like the veterans to clue me on forward . I find Pharo 1.2 more stable than 1.3 latest... . Is morphic capable of supporting error free runtime GUI I enjoy it's capabilities, but feel it demands more intrinsic Pharo, debugging ability to keep hacking n fixing. Crashes , damaged rectangle painting are just few of the troubles I expect a simple answer, not necessarily a longer explanation of morphic and it's issues with global coordinates, polling event handling which are nuisances. I have read thru as much of links, docs on morphic as i could find, little working on it, but not enough to get an expert hang of it. . Is system browser the best to study for morphic or should I look through any other package..Debug n learn.. . Simple way to get an embedded submorph from it's chain by it's name, #subMorphNamed: does help but only in a limited way.. For those that it digs. . Simpler way to bar extensions from a contributed older package, overriding base class methods, not really the final as in java but at least prevent overwriting methods. A listing post file in of uncompiled methods of this kind. Hacking in FilePackage does help.. But anything better and more complete...and part of a base system. . Mechanism to autosave a defined package every method commit to a packagename.mcz by default to ease crash recovery, use monticello only when I need to version it as a done base. . Event handling of mouseLeave mouseEnter of a PluggableTextMorph, the on:send: did not work, not that I have dug into it... But would like to link it to the models methods directly in the builder method interface like we do for PluggableButtonMorph click.... . Color of a morph is not updated when selecting it thru the halo. Minor hack i have here, to get thru. . Why is extent attribute not updated when we use addMorph:fullFrame: which changes the bounds for the submorphs in some cases at least as i have noticed in debug step thru. . What are clear do not do rules in using morphic framework as it exists today, as people have already experienced and attempted. . Debugger stepping through has most times an out of step highlighting. Any fix on this.. . Settings window seems to have glitches in network settings, font updates from OS... . Autocompletion in windows seems to work on cr, but in Linux you have to type thru. . The easiest way to have a core Pharo runtime image stripped of all dev tools, classes, size is not the limitation here, but stable n bug free base is a must. . Tools n tips to make Pharo base with its loaded apps crash proof, just isolate and close the app that causes the problem rest of the image should continue to run. issue not directly related: . Windows support for OSProcess, i have read the threads and the note from Eliot that it works on windows for cadence, but I cannot get it to work, the ProcessWrapper works but is limited. If I do get it working does it support interactive shell, viz i invoke a command that enters into it's own loop of inputs n output till you send a quit. Lots more i will come up with in the next couple of weeks as I bring out what i have. Sudhakar krishnamachari Extn 91-40403012 Cell 9902104814

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[Pharo-project] Fwd: Morphic queries
by Krishsmalltalk Jan. 1, 2012

Jan. 1, 2012

> What is that prevents picking lessons learnt, fixes from cuis into Pharo or is it considered a totally different line altogether. > > I am not calling of absolute merge or throwing morphic 2 .. But picking what is nice out there.. > > > > On Jan 1, 2012, at 11:52 AM, Krishsmalltalk <krishnamachari.sudhakar(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Wishing all Pharoer's a very warm n happy new year >> >> Since last few weeks, I have been experimenting with Pharo as a tablet interface inside a tiny core Linux. The dev though happens on ubuntu. Some more playing around for a group of trainees with pharo on windows 7, platform I do not very much like. >> >> How far is it a nice to have framework that provides for a complete UI, IDE like a tablet interface and behaves akin to android that has it's own AppStore, and application launcher in full screen on icon click. >> >> Anyone can download the base, and proceed to download the app source, files archive thru an app installer, that verifies , validates and installs as well as creates a launcher icon ( I will provide the screenshots once I have them fine tuned) >> >> Rest of ideas and process are similar to android marketplace or iStore, with definite controls on absolute stability and experience of the apps >> >> Some observations i will like the veterans to clue me on forward >> >> . I find Pharo 1.2 more stable than 1.3 latest... >> >> . Is morphic capable of supporting error free runtime GUI >> I enjoy it's capabilities, but feel it demands more intrinsic Pharo, debugging ability to keep hacking n fixing. Crashes , damaged rectangle painting are just few of the troubles >> >> I expect a simple answer, not necessarily a longer explanation of morphic and it's issues with global coordinates, polling event handling which are nuisances. I have read thru as much of links, docs on morphic as i could find, little working on it, but not enough to get an expert hang of it. >> >> . Is system browser the best to study for morphic or should I look through any other package..Debug n learn.. >> >> . Simple way to get an embedded submorph from it's chain by it's name, #subMorphNamed: does help but only in a limited way.. For those that it digs. >> >> . Simpler way to bar extensions from a contributed older package, overriding base class methods, not really the final as in java but at least prevent overwriting methods. A listing post file in of uncompiled methods of this kind. Hacking in FilePackage does help.. But anything better and more complete...and part of a base system. >> >> . Mechanism to autosave a defined package every method commit to a packagename.mcz by default to ease crash recovery, use monticello only when I need to version it as a done base. >> >> . Event handling of mouseLeave mouseEnter of a PluggableTextMorph, the on:send: did not work, not that I have dug into it... But would like to link it to the models methods directly in the builder method interface like we do for PluggableButtonMorph click.... >> >> . Color of a morph is not updated when selecting it thru the halo. Minor hack i have here, to get thru. >> >> . Why is extent attribute not updated when we use addMorph:fullFrame: which changes the bounds for the submorphs in some cases at least as i have noticed in debug step thru. >> >> . What are clear do not do rules in using morphic framework as it exists today, as people have already experienced and attempted. >> >> . Debugger stepping through has most times an out of step highlighting. Any fix on this.. >> >> . Settings window seems to have glitches in network settings, font updates from OS... >> >> . Autocompletion in windows seems to work on cr, but in Linux you have to type thru. >> >> . The easiest way to have a core Pharo runtime image stripped of all dev tools, classes, size is not the limitation here, but stable n bug free base is a must. >> >> . Tools n tips to make Pharo base with its loaded apps crash proof, just isolate and close the app that causes the problem rest of the image should continue to run. >> >> >> issue not directly related: >> . Windows support for OSProcess, i have read the threads and the note from Eliot that it works on windows for cadence, but I cannot get it to work, the ProcessWrapper works but is limited. If I do get it working does it support interactive shell, viz i invoke a command that enters into it's own loop of inputs n output till you send a quit. >> >> Lots more i will come up with in the next couple of weeks as I bring out what i have. >> >> >> Sudhakar krishnamachari >> >> Extn 91-40403012 >> Cell 9902104814 >> >>

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[Pharo-project] feature request - undo closed tab
by btc＠openInWorld.com Jan. 1, 2012

Jan. 1, 2012

Neglecting that in 6 months I might be in a position try implementing this myself, here is a feature request in case anyone likes it enough to implement it in the meantime, or who can advise why it is a bad idea. Background: For me, one of the greatest most useful features of web browsers is the "Undo Close Tab." I browse almost exclusively opening all links as new tabs since I find this the fastest to follow diversions and then return to my previous place up the stack of tabs. I can get 20 or more odd tabs in a browser window. When I'm speedily closing tabs to backtrack my position, I find my recognition of content often lags my tab closing by a split second. Being able to un-close that last tab is a lifesaver. Now that I am getting into actual programming in Pharo, I have found that from time to time I've ended up with more than a dozen tabs in the "task bar" at the bottom of World. A few times already when I've flicking through these closing them after finish a line of thought, I have accidentally closed some tabs that I wanted to keep - like the Workspace I had been using as a bit of a history log. Perhaps my workflow is bad - but I really miss being able to Undo closing that last window. Features: 1. For a window that has a tab on the "task bar" at the bottom of World, when it is closed allow it to be reopened in the same state. 2. Clicking on the "Task bar" provides a menu item "Undo Close Tab" that either: 2a. Brings back the last closed tab. 2b. Provides a "restore list" of previously closed tabs sorted by time closed, which brings back that tab. Implementation Idea: 3. When closing a tab, rather than actually closing it, the window is just minimised but is removed from the tab and placed on the "restore list". 4a. The "restore list" is a certain length and when a tab is bumped off the end it is properly closed. 4b. Alternatively tabs may remove themselves from the "restore list" after a certain timeout eg 30 minutes. I'd appreciate your thoughts... cheers, Ben

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[Pharo-project] System Browser - shifting class comments into pane beneath class definition
by Ben Coman Jan. 1, 2012

Jan. 1, 2012

I could not find any previous discussion of this so I'll just throw this out there... I find that I forget to click the "?" button to read the class comments as I browse around the system. They are "kind of" hidden. Perhaps also I stop looking because they are often empty. If others do the same then it is a downward spiral... if it seems no one looks at them then no one values writing them. (Except for the good work of the COTDC) However System Browser opens by default with 16 lines. Most class definitions (eg [1]) use 6 lines, which leaves a lot of unused whitespace. I wonder if the class comment was to appear (in a separate pane) beneath the class definition then the class definition would be filled out more often. Bring the class comments to the fore and perhaps they'll be valued more. At least for me, it will ensure that I don't miss where there are good comments I can learn from. Also more attention may focus on the poor comments due to being more exposed. just a random thought... cheers, Ben [1] Object subclass: #Behavior uses: TPureBehavior instanceVariableNames: 'superclass methodDict format' classVariableNames: 'ObsoleteSubclasses' poolDictionaries: '' category: 'Kernel-Classes'

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[Pharo-project] Possible bug in FFI
by ncalexan Jan. 1, 2012

Jan. 1, 2012

Hello all, Long-time reader, first-time poster. Is FFI fully supported on Pharo? I installed into the 1.3 OneClick using Gofer new squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfFFI'; load. ConfigurationOfFFI load. All seems fine but ExternalAddress gcallocate: 128 fails in ExternalAddress>>shallowCopy, complaining that clone is not understood. Bug? Not supported? Misused? Best, Nick Alexander -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Possible-bug-in-FFI-tp4241299p4241299.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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[Pharo-project] Pharo surpasses 1 Million downloads ;-)
by Sean P. DeNigris Dec. 30, 2011

Dec. 30, 2011

I just happened to notice this on Squeaksource. Pretty cool. Project Downloads Pharo 1365087 -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-surpasses-1-Million-downloads-tp4246065p4246065… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Dec. 30, 2011

Hi guys talking with sven during the last sprint we realized that it would be good to collect and document some good practices. So I started a chapter for PBE2 on coding practices. I will take the some of the optimization that sven did in time/date printOn: as a start If you have some suggestions with examples I could integrate to the chapter. Stef

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[Pharo-project] Classes referenced in code string
by Sean P. DeNigris Dec. 30, 2011

Dec. 30, 2011

How would I programmatically find out what classes are referenced in a string. For example: 'Object new. String new' "would return { Object. String }" -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Classes-referenced-in-code-string-tp4244214p4244214.h… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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