- Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

[Pharo 9.0] Build #300: FixCompilerSettings
by ci-pharo-ci-jenkins2＠inria.fr May 19, 2020

May 19, 2020

There is a new Pharo build available! The status of the build #300 was: FAILURE. The Pull Request #6358 was integrated: "FixCompilerSettings" Pull request url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/6358 Issue Url: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/issues/FixCompilerSettings Build Url: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/Test%20pending%20pull%20request%2…

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Squeak and Pharo speed differences
by Shaping May 19, 2020

May 19, 2020

Hi all. Squeak 5.3: Time millisecondsToRun: [ 100000 factorial ] 6250 Pharo 8: Time millisecondsToRun: [ 100000 factorial ] 7736 Why the difference? Squeak 5.3 release notes describe arithmetic improvements. Nice. I crunch very big numbers, and these improvements therefore have value. Why would they not be included in OSVM (forked or not) and the basic class-set for both Squeak and Pharo? Playing with Squeak 5.3, Iâve noticed that the GUI is snappier. Browser ergonomics are better too (for me at least), but that can be fixed/tuned in either environ to suit the developer. (Still thatâs some work I prefer not to do.) Pharo GUIs are now generally slower, except for the Launcher, which is delightfully quick because it is written in Spec2. I presume that all Pharo GUIs will eventually (ETA?) be written in Spec2 and that Pharo will then be quick in all its GUIs. The obvious question is: Will Squeak be improving GUI look/behavior and speed with Spec2? If not, can I load Spec2 into Squeak so that I can do new GUI work there? Both Squeak and Pharo have slow text selection. Pick any word in any pane, and double click it to select it. When I do this, I sense a 75 to 100 ms latency between the end of the double click and the selection highlight appearing on the word. I thought Iâd entered a wormhole. So I did the same experiment in VW 8.3.2, VS Code, and Notepad, and all three showed undetectable latencies. This matters to me. Iâm trying to port from VW to Pharo or Squeak (for a really long time now), and canât push myself past the text-selection delay problem. Can text-selection speed be improved to the level of VWâs? Can someone sketch the algo used and/or point me to the right class/methods. The Squeak debugging experience step-to-step is much quicker. The latencies in Pharo after button- release are very long. I estimate 100 to 150 ms. Thatâs too long for me to work productively. I lose my mental thread with many of those delays, and have to restart the thought. Itâs a serious problem, caused mostly by acclimation to no detectable latency for many years (Dolphin and VW have quick GUIs). Is speeding up the Pharo debugger with Spec2 a priority? I canât think of a better GUI-related priority for Pharo. Not speed-related: - How can I load additional fonts into Squeak? Pharo does this with the font dialogâs Update button. - Where in the Squeak and Pharo images can I change mouse-selection behavior to be leading-edge? Some of the Squeak panes have this; others donât. I want leading-edge action in all panes, and wish the feature were in Preferences/Settings. Shaping

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[ANN] Smalltalkhub Readonly Migration tuesday 8hs - server maintenance / migration
by Guillermo Polito May 18, 2020

May 18, 2020

Hi all, We wanted to announce that, as announced previously, Smalltalkhub is going read only from tomorrow, 8h central Europe time. This means the service could be down for a couple of hours until the sync of data is done. Keep tuned, Guille and Christophe in behalf of the RMoD team

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Re: [Pharo-dev] [Vm-dev] Squeak and Pharo speed differences
by Ronie Salgado May 18, 2020

May 18, 2020

Hi Shaping, About the latency, it may be because of the default idle time. Try running the following: ProcessorScheduler idleTime: 1000 > By the release of Pharo 7 the idle time was increased to 50 ms in order to reduce the CPU usage on the cloud and reduce costs. If I remember correctly Ben Coman did a PR that changes the way the delays are scheduled in order to select the most appropriate time for sleeping, but since the PR was to close to a Pharo release, it was decided to not be included for safeness reasons. We should resurrect that change soon because the default latency is really bad. Best regards, Ronie El dom., 17 may. 2020 a las 7:03, Robert (<robert.withers(a)pm.me>) escribiÃ³: > > > Hi Shaping, I can't comment on parallelizing the VM. I was waiting to hear > from you regarding 'CapabilitiesLocal' and its ref-cap state transition > model. > On 5/16/20 11:29 PM, Shaping wrote: > > Hi Shaping, > > Hi Robert. (Weâll get back to the parallelizing any day nowâ¦) > > On 5/16/20 8:47 AM, Shaping wrote: > > Can you tell me about those efforts? I know the VM is one, maybe the > biggest. What else do Squeak folks work on? > > I also understand why the developers of the new Pharo preferences tree > did not like to invest the same effort in Squeak. What incentive would they > have? > > > > Make all features (GUIs/frameworks) loadable into a new, mostly empty > image. > > > > Andso, here we have the biggest challenge to doing such sharing. You say > all features should be loadable into either image. The issue is that Pharo > has driven forwards in creating new load formats, such as Tonel. I tried to > load up the Tonel format, but failed. > > > > Who oversees stuff like this? > > Specifically, why donât we now make Tonel avaibable on Squeak, with the > objective of equalizing access to source code, so that we can use one image > ultimatelyâa nice steady gradual drift toward one image, so that no one is > in too much pain at any one point in time. > > Why wasnât this done when Tonel was first created? The Pharo dev probably > didnât see it as good use of dev time. I kindly suggest that this > attitude change for all contributors to both Smalltalks. > > How long is the list of format-related code/frameworks that need to be > equalized, so that Squeak and Pharo can always load the same things? > > I couldn't get distracted from my core work. > > Sure, I feel the same. I imaging that most of us do. > > NO EFFORTS have been made to have Squeak able to load such formats, and > the Pharo folks have deprecated the existing Montecello load format, > > In my Pharo 9 I have a bit these bits: > > > > Gofer new > > squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; > > package: 'ConfigurationOfAida'; > > load. > > (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfAida) load. > > > > Metacello new > > baseline:'Seaside3'; > > repository: 'github://SeasideSt/Seaside:master/repository'; > > load > > In Squeak I can now ensureRecentMetacello, which I was not able to before. > > Installer ensureRecentMetacello. > > Metacello new > baseline: 'MagicMouse'; > repository: 'filetree:///home/quotar/tribe/MagicMouse/packages'; > load > > However, I still choke on the Metacello #baseline:; #repository:. #load. > It prints to the Transcript > > gofer repository error: 'GoferRepositoryError: > UndefinedObject>>isAlphaNumeric'...ignoring > ...FAILED->BaselineOfMagicMouse > > I get a debugger on > MetacelloFetchingMCSpecLoader>>#retryingResolvePackageSpecReferences: > packageSpec gofer: gofer > > The Gofer is pointing to a > MCFileTreeRepository(filetree:///home/quotar/tribe/MagicMouse/packages) as > its only repo. The packageSpec is thus: > > spec > name: 'BaselineOfMagicMouse'; > repository: 'filetree:///home/quotar/tribe/MagicMouse/packages'. > > At one time I had found what caused the #isAlphaNumeric error (I think an > empty stream). The point is that I cannot load with Metacello in Squeak. > > Here is code I use in Squeak to load Cryptography and ParrotTalk and SSL > and Raven. This works in Squeak but not in Pharo. > > Installer ss > project: 'Cryptography'; install: 'ProCrypto-1-1-1'; > project: 'Cryptography'; install: 'ProCryptoTests-1-1-1'; > project: 'Cryptography'; install: 'CapabilitiesLocal'; > project: 'Oceanside'; install: 'ston-config-map'; > project: 'Cryptography'; install: 'SSLLoader; > project: 'Cryptography'; install: 'Raven'. > > Packages #1, #2, #4, and #5 are all Monticello configuration maps (.mcm), > thus unloadable in Pharo... > > > > *If there is genuine respect for the value of Squeak and Pharo on both > sides * > > Good question! We shall see. The feeling to me is a couple of stiff french > fingers being sent Squeak's way. There is probably a french word for that.. > > K, r > -- > > Kindly, > Robert > >

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[Mm10s] 2020-05-18
by Esteban Lorenzano May 18, 2020

May 18, 2020

Short list today ;) ### Last week: * [NewTools-Playground] polishing details and get it ready to test internally (which now is the case :P) * Documenting transmissions sub-framework. * Spent a lot of time preparing integration of Spec2 0.6 into P9. ### This week (starting 2020-05-18): - Finish 0.6 merge. - Start working with NewTools-Inspector - verify some errors in UFFI - Gtk backend: verify some problems with low-level events

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would it make sense to have ZnCharacterReadStream and other readstream reply to readstream
by StÃ©phane Ducasse May 18, 2020

May 18, 2020

Hi sven I like the pattern on: aStringOrStream | stream | stream := aStringOrStream readStream but I cannot apply with Zn because ZnCharacterReadStream and friends do not answer readstream What is your point of view on it. S. -------------------------------------------- StÃ©phane Ducasse http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr / http://www.pharo.org 03 59 35 87 52 Assistant: Julie Jonas FAX 03 59 57 78 50 TEL 03 59 35 86 16 S. Ducasse - Inria 40, avenue Halley, Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, BÃ¢t.A, Park Plaza Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 France

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pharo-contributions/pharo-unicode
by Sven Van Caekenberghe May 17, 2020

May 17, 2020

Hi, I am not 100% sure how things are organised, but I would like access to pharo-contributions/pharo-unicode, so that I can commit directly. I see that Alistair did the initial commits (copying from history), but I can't see how he could have done that. I access granted at the pharo-contributions level, or below ? Thx, Sven

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Red Alarm!
by Janko Korelc May 17, 2020

May 17, 2020

Red Alarm! 2 days ago had found databaseCriticsBrowser.zip and installed several packages from the catalog. NeuralNetworks installed successfully for the first time. Several image saves later, was dissatisfied with something, and as noticed option to revert changes, tried it. Look, everything got uninstalled! WTF? Thought, then at least let's install NN again. Only to discover I can not. Today, I believe it got deleted for a strange reason. Try to recover and those dangerous variants shall be removed from the public. For the curious look in group Compiler at my comment in topic: What should we do with programmers who introduce errors in code. -- gee, gravitino, graviton exchange

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Squeak and Pharo why the fork
by Shaping May 17, 2020

May 17, 2020

Hi Jimmie. On 5/15/20 5:26 AM, Shaping wrote: I donât understand the split. It looks silly. Maybe someone can explain the split in terms of technical/architectural advantages, if any exist. I began using Squeak about 20 years ago. And then Pharo when it started. I will explain as best as I can. The differences do have bearing on architecture and technical things but at the beginning the basis of it all is philosophy. Differences in what you want Squeak/Pharo to be, where you want it go. Squeak is from Apple Smalltalk. Smalltalk is not simply a language, but began as an OS, an environment and a language. It ran directly on the hardware. Then Smalltalk was ported to operating systems. But still took with it a very OS like environment and world view. It was the world. This was very much Squeak. Squeak was the world. It was an amazing and interesting environment. It could play mp3s, had MIDI capabilities. It was a very interesting multimedia environment. Bright, colorful, creative. But it was also a very productive programming environment to build whatever you wanted to build. All of the people involved in Squeak, loved the productivity of the Smalltalk language and the live environment. You had debates about "Pink plane" vs "Blue plane". What was the direction of the community and the artifact Squeak. There were two large communities with differing opinions on direction. Alan Kay The Computer Revolution Hasn't Happened Yet OOPSLA 97 Keynote (VPRI 0719) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYT2se94eU0 """ https://pab-data.blogspot.com/2007/03/what-colour-do-you-like-your-objects.… In Alan Kay's keynote speech at OOPSLA in 1997 he talks about a blue plane and a pink plane. The pink plane represents ideas which are an incremental improvement of existing ideas. The blue plane which runs orthogonal to the pink represents revolutionary ideas that break the old way of doing things, setting you off in a new direction. """ Many people had projects and ideas which were very able to be done in Squeak, but did not want the entire OS-like image. ... Maybe I want a web server. I don't need to play multimedia files. Have a GUI. etc. Insert your own application here. People wanted to build businesses around what they could do with Squeak. The Pink plane community wanted to begin to clean up Squeak. Break it up into parts which could be reloaded. It wanted a much more modular environment which allowed you to build the image you want for the purpose you intend. The Blue plane community didn't see any problems with the way it was. They liked it and still do. It fit what they wanted to do with Squeak/Smalltalk. Frequently more research oriented and less business oriented. Applied basic research is most of what I do. I still want a clean, modular environment. I donât see how that interferes with creative verve. It should help if only by limiting confusion and clarifying configurational choices. Then in the midst of all this you have overlap in individuals who understand both. You also had personality differences and disagreements which developed over years. Eventually the Pink plane community forked and created Pharo. The foundational community of Squeak (Blue plane) did not want to make the changes the Pink plane community wanted or required. What are the specific changes that Squeak folks donât want to make? Squeak/Pharo is a configurable environment. We can still have a quasi-OS world if we want that. What specific aspects of the analytic and creative experience break or degrade for Squeak users with these specific changes, and also cannot be preserved by loading the right Smalltalk packages? Pharo is now 12 years or so into its journey. It is not easy losing weight and still keep working. But that is the goal of Pharo. Keep reducing until the entire system can be built up from a base image. And when it gets there. We don't have a problem with from that foundation, being able to build it back up into a Squeak-like image. I have numerous projects which I am doing in Pharo. One is a trading application. I personally want as little in my image as possible which does not have to do with my trading application. It desires to be as fast as possible, run without failure, and as memory and cpu efficient as I can make it to be in Pharo. I could make and run this application in Squeak. But it would include much that I don't need and don't want. And that is the case in Pharo currently as well. This points to needing more modularity, not less. We want to unload all that we donât want, in small or big pieces, easily and confidently, without breaking anything. It sounds easy, but itâs not. I think this should be one of the Consortiumâs main goals. But Pharo has its philosophy and its direction that it is moving towards. At some point in time my trading application will what I want it to be with very little unused code in the image. That might not be until Pharo 10+. I don't know. But there is a vision within Pharo for people to build such applications. Image minimization is a useful feature. A Squeak user would want this too, at least when deploying. I have not used Squeak in years. And nothing I write here is meant to speak badly about Squeak. I like the Squeak community. They are full of great people. And I do not know how accurate what I write is to the current Squeak. My apologies for any inaccuracies or errors. Pharo in general is much more pro-business. It is an explicit goal of Pharo. https://pharo.org/about https://gforge.inria.fr/frs/download.php/30434/PharoVision.pdf Both websites give you a feel for who the community is and the orientation of their goals. As much as re-unification would be nice. Logical and utilitarian. I don't know that it will happen. At a minimum, not until the Squeak community could build Squeak from a Pharo kernel image. Then it would be possible. But I don't think likely. What are the specific problems? Anyone? This is just my generalizations in an effort to answer your question. There are people who are in both communities. Both communities in general attempt to cooperate when we can. Both are communities with friendly, amazing people. And both communities have people who have been doing this for a very long time, and that is a very good thing. Both are completely open source projects which will allow you to do whatever you want within your abilities and resources. Basically it is simply this. Different visions for the direction of the project and the pursuit of those directions for an extended period of time. This email is an simplification of a lot discussions and debates over a period of years which finally lead to a fork of Squeak. Hope this helps. Shaping

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Re: [Pharo-dev] [Vm-dev] Squeak and Pharo speed differences
by Shaping May 17, 2020

May 17, 2020

Hi Shaping, I can't comment on parallelizing the VM. Thatâs mostly what the thread is for, ultimately. The refcaps are needed by the concurrent collector. Some interesting memory-management options are surfacing soon with Verona. That scheme is supposed to eliminate the cost of tracing refs to mutable objects in many small heaps. This is the main cost of having all the small heaps with Orca protocol. Verona should fix this. I need to look into it further before discussing the details. I was waiting to hear from you regarding 'CapabilitiesLocal' and its ref-cap state transition model. Sorry for the delay. Iâve not read the e-mail yet. Iâll be a bit longer. Thanks for the patience. Shaping On 5/16/20 11:29 PM, Shaping wrote: Hi Shaping, Hi Robert. (Weâll get back to the parallelizing any day nowâ¦) On 5/16/20 8:47 AM, Shaping wrote: Can you tell me about those efforts? I know the VM is one, maybe the biggest. What else do Squeak folks work on? I also understand why the developers of the new Pharo preferences tree did not like to invest the same effort in Squeak. What incentive would they have? Make all features (GUIs/frameworks) loadable into a new, mostly empty image. Andso, here we have the biggest challenge to doing such sharing. You say all features should be loadable into either image. The issue is that Pharo has driven forwards in creating new load formats, such as Tonel. I tried to load up the Tonel format, but failed. Who oversees stuff like this? Specifically, why donât we now make Tonel avaibable on Squeak, with the objective of equalizing access to source code, so that we can use one image ultimatelyâa nice steady gradual drift toward one image, so that no one is in too much pain at any one point in time. Why wasnât this done when Tonel was first created? The Pharo dev probably didnât see it as good use of dev time. I kindly suggest that this attitude change for all contributors to both Smalltalks. How long is the list of format-related code/frameworks that need to be equalized, so that Squeak and Pharo can always load the same things? I couldn't get distracted from my core work. Sure, I feel the same. I imaging that most of us do. NO EFFORTS have been made to have Squeak able to load such formats, and the Pharo folks have deprecated the existing Montecello load format, In my Pharo 9 I have a bit these bits: Gofer new squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; package: 'ConfigurationOfAida'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfAida) load. Metacello new baseline:'Seaside3'; repository: 'github://SeasideSt/Seaside:master/repository'; load In Squeak I can now ensureRecentMetacello, which I was not able to before. Installer ensureRecentMetacello. Metacello new baseline: 'MagicMouse'; repository: 'filetree:///home/quotar/tribe/MagicMouse/packages'; load However, I still choke on the Metacello #baseline:; #repository:. #load. It prints to the Transcript gofer repository error: 'GoferRepositoryError: UndefinedObject>>isAlphaNumeric'...ignoring ...FAILED->BaselineOfMagicMouse I get a debugger on MetacelloFetchingMCSpecLoader>>#retryingResolvePackageSpecReferences: packageSpec gofer: gofer The Gofer is pointing to a MCFileTreeRepository(filetree:///home/quotar/tribe/MagicMouse/packages) as its only repo. The packageSpec is thus: spec name: 'BaselineOfMagicMouse'; repository: 'filetree:///home/quotar/tribe/MagicMouse/packages'. At one time I had found what caused the #isAlphaNumeric error (I think an empty stream). The point is that I cannot load with Metacello in Squeak. Here is code I use in Squeak to load Cryptography and ParrotTalk and SSL and Raven. This works in Squeak but not in Pharo. Installer ss project: 'Cryptography'; install: 'ProCrypto-1-1-1'; project: 'Cryptography'; install: 'ProCryptoTests-1-1-1'; project: 'Cryptography'; install: 'CapabilitiesLocal'; project: 'Oceanside'; install: 'ston-config-map'; project: 'Cryptography'; install: 'SSLLoader; project: 'Cryptography'; install: 'Raven'. Packages #1, #2, #4, and #5 are all Monticello configuration maps (.mcm), thus unloadable in Pharo... If there is genuine respect for the value of Squeak and Pharo on both sides Good question! We shall see. The feeling to me is a couple of stiff french fingers being sent Squeak's way. There is probably a french word for that.. K, r -- Kindly, Robert

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