January 2016 - Pharo-dev - lists.pharo.org

16814 Critics Browser seriously broken /validation errors (marked as validation succeeded)
by Nicolai Hess Jan. 22, 2016

Jan. 22, 2016

Who can help with this ? 16814 <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/16814/Critics-Browser-seriously-broken> Critics Browser seriously broken

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[ann] spotter processors as settings
by Tudor Girba Jan. 22, 2016

Jan. 22, 2016

Hi, We now have a new little feature in Spotter. Take a look: Basically, you will get a setting for each processor defined in the image. This happens dynamically. If you disable the setting, the processor will not be available anymore. Please give this a try and let us know what you think. We would also like a code review related to the way we deal with dynamic settings. Right now, the magic is done in GTSpotterExtensionSettings (this is real magic - read the class comment), but the current solution relies on a doesNotUnderstand: to maintain the list of disabled processors. I would more prefer it if we could create a DynamicSettingDeclaration that would be able to pass arguments to one central selector. Cheers, Doru -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Quality cannot be an afterthought."

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Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Pharo bootstrap
by Sven Van Caekenberghe Jan. 21, 2016

Jan. 21, 2016

This is a much more complex and challenging subject that you might think. There has been a lot of work done on this for many years, many approaches have been tried. I am pretty sure that the people behind the Pharo Bootstrap project are aware of the existing literature. > On 21 Jan 2016, at 09:49, Peter H. Meadows via Pharo-dev <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > > > From: "Peter H. Meadows" <peter.h.meadows(a)googlemail.com> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Pharo bootstrap > Date: 21 January 2016 at 09:48:23 GMT+1 > To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> > > > On 20 January 2016 at 16:36, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 4:19 PM, Peter H. Meadows via Pharo-dev >> <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: "Peter H. Meadows" <peter.h.meadows(a)googlemail.com> >>> To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev(a)lists.pharo.org> >>> Cc: >>> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 2016 15:17:59 +0000 >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] [ANN] Pharo bootstrap >>> Cool. Any chance someone can explain for beginners to understand >>> what's going on here? >>> Why is cleaning the image not as simple as running it and deleting any >>> object that wasn't used? >> >> >> The point is not to clean but to start with an empty object engine and fill >> it in with the minimum required core. > > But why should this not end up with the same end result? > One way is to start with nothing, and only add stuff we need to make > it run/boot, and the other way is to start with what we have, and > remove anything that is not needed to make it run/boot. In both cases > don't you end up with the same thing? > > >> Currently, the image is the result of an evolutionary process and rebuilding >> it from zero was not possible. > > I wonder if they thought about this when they created the first image. > Didn't they think 'hey, we should really have a way for anyone to > create new images from nothing'? Or was it just that they didn't get > around to making this tool? > >> This maes it possible to audit the whole build process, create different >> base image for various purposes (very small, headless with no UI objects at >> all, using the object engine in a completely different way that is used >> today). >> >> That makes the image the result of a fully reproducible process, from a file >> of zero bytes, to a file with a working image. >> >> That would make us master the whole chain. Today, there is still black magic >> in the image, due to the history. >> >> That's an exciting development. For example, in C, one compiles all files, >> and links, giving the exe. All that from a file of zero size. We will be >> able to do the same kind of thing at the image level. >> >> Also, this allows to experiment with new low level mechanisms. This is >> currently not possible since it makes us like performing surgery on our own >> brain. Also, the Oz-inspired system will help in exploring other image >> memories (small or large) and manipulate them as entities. At this point, >> this is also not common pratice. >> >> HTH >> Phil, wishing to master the mitosis competency... >>> >>> >>> (Thanks in advance) >>> >>> On 20 January 2016 at 12:52, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>>> Well, there is no formal specificationâ¦ But I could summarize the >>>> features >>>> as follows (and as Christophe points mostly out) >>>> >>>> OzVM supports having two images in logically separated spaces. This >>>> separation is achieved by using the free bit in the object header. Thus >>>> we >>>> support only two spaces by now. >>>> >>>> - The main addition is actually a new primitive: >>>> #resumeFromSpecialObjectsArray that receives an special objects array as >>>> argument and: >>>> - resumes the execution from the active process of such array >>>> - on context switch, if the VM is running from a second special >>>> objects >>>> array, it will return to the first one instead. >>>> >>>> - fixes to primitives/bytecodes that assume a single special objects >>>> array. >>>> e.g., >>>> - #someObject and #nextObject should only iterate objects from the >>>> correct âspaceâ >>>> - #isNil comparisons should take the correct nil >>>> - the GC should set the correct nil object on Weak containers >>>> >>>> The extensions I made are about 20 overrides to StackPrimitive and >>>> NewObjectMemory methods. >>>> >>>> The rest is implemented completely on image side. We use mirror >>>> primitives >>>> to manipulate objects from other space (as each image/space has itâs own >>>> selector table). >>>> >>>> I have in my long TODO list see if the "clever hackâ I did can be >>>> supported >>>> in a nice manner on top of Spurâs segmented memory. However, I should >>>> stop >>>> commencing new projects and start finishing them :P. >>>> >>>> On 20 ene 2016, at 9:03 a.m., Christophe Demarey >>>> <Christophe.Demarey(a)inria.fr> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Eliot, >>>> >>>> Le 19 janv. 2016 Ã 19:29, Eliot Miranda a Ã©crit : >>>> >>>> Hi All, >>>> >>>> great news! Where can I read a specification of the Oz VM >>>> facilities? >>>> >>>> >>>> I do not know all the details of the Oz VM but basically, it is a >>>> standard >>>> stack interpreter vm specialized to be able to run 2 images at the same >>>> time >>>> on top of it. >>>> Guillermo made it possible by using one available bit in the object >>>> header >>>> of objects to mark the ownership of an object (e.g. is my object from >>>> image1 >>>> or image2?). Then, he mainly had to specialize VM primitives dealing >>>> with >>>> objects retrieval from memory. By example, he had to modify the garbage >>>> collector to set the right nil instance (yes, we have 2 images so 2 nil >>>> instances. we need to take the one of the active image) when an object >>>> is >>>> garbage collected; the primitive someObject has to return an object from >>>> the >>>> active image, etc. >>>> There is also a way to switch execution from an image to the other just >>>> by >>>> switching the special objects array reference. >>>> >>>> You can find some information in: >>>> https://guillep.github.io/files/publications/Poli15Thesis.pdf. >>>> The Oz code is in http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Guille/ObjectSpace and in >>>> https://github.com/guillep/OzVM >>>> The current implementation uses Cog 6.6.1and OzVM-GuillermoPolito.22. >>>> I do not know if Guille has a more formal specification of the Oz VM. >>>> >>>> If you have advices on what is the best way to handle two distinct >>>> object >>>> (memory) spaces in Spur, they will be welcomed :) >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Christophe >>>> >>>> >>>> _,,,^..^,,,_ (phone) >>>> >>>> On Jan 19, 2016, at 6:29 AM, Christophe Demarey >>>> <christophe.demarey(a)inria.fr> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> In case you do not know, we work on bootstrapping Pharo, i.e. create a >>>> Pharo >>>> image from sources, not based on a previous image (well, we use a pharo >>>> image to produce it but no code / state from it). >>>> >>>> This process will allow to define a minimal Pharo kernel (currently 52 >>>> packages but we could have it far smaller) and to modularize the whole >>>> image >>>> (currently packages have too much dependencies on packages already >>>> loaded >>>> into the image). >>>> The bootstrap process also allows to write down the recipe to initialize >>>> a >>>> new image from scratch (some code is missing in the image or is wrong). >>>> In >>>> addition, I think we will clean a lot of historical objects that are not >>>> used anymore. >>>> >>>> With the amazing work done by Guillermo Polito during his Phd (around >>>> Espell, Oz): >>>> https://guillep.github.io/files/publications/Poli15Thesis.pdf, >>>> we succeeded to get a first prototype of a bootstraped Pharo 5 image >>>> (from >>>> 5.392). >>>> This prototype is able to run an eval command line handler and to log >>>> output >>>> / errors. Not all classes are yet initialized and you cannot yet save / >>>> restart this image but it is a big step forward. >>>> It is a 4 mb image (could be half the size without unicode data). You >>>> can >>>> download it at: >>>> >>>> http://chercheurs.lille.inria.fr/~demarey/pmwiki/pub/pharo-bootstrap/pharo-…. >>>> >>>> Next steps are to have a bootstrapped image fully working, then to load >>>> packages on top of it (like network, sunit) to produce a minimal image. >>>> Then, we need to implement an Oz VM on top of Spur. >>>> After that, we need to work on a reliable way to build the bootstrap >>>> (not >>>> too sensitive to changes in the image). >>>> >>>> Christophe. >>>> >>>> ------- >>>> demarey@193-51-236-143:~/dev/rmod/bootstrap/bootstrap-2016-01-19$ >>>> ../pharo >>>> bootstrap.image --no-default-preferences eval "1 + 1" >>>> 2 >>>> demarey@193-51-236-143:~/dev/rmod/bootstrap/bootstrap-2016-01-19$ >>>> ../pharo >>>> bootstrap.image --no-default-preferences eval "'a' , 'b'" >>>> 'ab' >>>> demarey@193-51-236-143:~/dev/rmod/bootstrap/bootstrap-2016-01-19$ >>>> ../pharo >>>> bootstrap.image --no-default-preferences eval "1 / 0" >>>> ZeroDivide >>>> SmallInteger>>/ >>>> UndefinedObject>>DoIt >>>> OpalCompiler>>evaluate >>>> OpalCompiler(AbstractCompiler)>>evaluate: >>>> SmalltalkImage>>evaluate: >>>> >>>> EvaluateCommandLineHandler>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> no source in EvaluateCommandLineHandler>>evaluate: in Block: no source >>>> BlockClosure>>on:do: >>>> EvaluateCommandLineHandler>>evaluate: >>>> EvaluateCommandLineHandler>>evaluateArguments >>>> EvaluateCommandLineHandler>>activate >>>> EvaluateCommandLineHandler class(CommandLineHandler >>>> class)>>activateWith: >>>> >>>> BasicCommandLineHandler>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> no source in >>>> PharoCommandLineHandler(BasicCommandLineHandler)>>activateSubCommand: in >>>> Block: no source >>>> BlockClosure>>on:do: >>>> PharoCommandLineHandler(BasicCommandLineHandler)>>activateSubCommand: >>>> PharoCommandLineHandler(BasicCommandLineHandler)>>handleSubcommand >>>> PharoCommandLineHandler(BasicCommandLineHandler)>>handleArgument: >>>> >>>> BasicCommandLineHandler>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> no source in PharoCommandLineHandler(BasicCommandLineHandler)>>activate >>>> in >>>> Block: no source >>>> BlockClosure>>on:do: >>>> PharoCommandLineHandler(BasicCommandLineHandler)>>activate >>>> PharoCommandLineHandler>>activate >>>> PharoCommandLineHandler class(CommandLineHandler class)>>activateWith: >>>> >>>> PharoCommandLineHandler class>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> no source in PharoCommandLineHandler class>>activateWith: in Block: no >>>> source >>>> NonInteractiveUIManager(UIManager)>>defer: >>>> PharoCommandLineHandler class>>activateWith: >>>> no source in BasicCommandLineHandler>>activateSubCommand: in Block: no >>>> source >>>> BlockClosure>>on:do: >>>> BasicCommandLineHandler>>activateSubCommand: >>>> BasicCommandLineHandler>>handleSubcommand >>>> BasicCommandLineHandler>>handleArgument: >>>> no source in BasicCommandLineHandler>>activate in Block: no source >>>> >>>> SmallInteger>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> UndefinedObject>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> AbstractCompiler>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> SmalltalkImage>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> BlockClosure>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> EvaluateCommandLineHandler>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> EvaluateCommandLineHandler>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> CommandLineHandler class>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> BasicCommandLineHandler>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> BasicCommandLineHandler>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> PharoCommandLineHandler>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> UIManager>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> UndefinedObject>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> CommandLineUIManager>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> SmalltalkImage>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> DelayMicrosecondScheduler>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> BlockClosure>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> SmalltalkImage>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> WeakArray class>>no (source is Undeclared) >>>> >>>> >>>> ps: source cannot be displayed because there is no formatter available >>>> in >>>> the bootstrap

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Re: [Pharo-dev] [squeak-dev] Smalltalk website tricks
by Dimitris Chloupis Jan. 21, 2016

Jan. 21, 2016

Does not render well on my iPad and has problems with multi touch, looks cool though :) On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 at 19:19, Craig Latta <craig(a)netjam.org> wrote: > > Hi-- > > I wrote a new website for Black Page Digital, my consultancy in > Amsterdam and San Francisco. It includes SqueakJS running in a 3D CSS > viewport, kinda cute. Please check it out, pass it on, and let me know > what you think! > > > http://thiscontext.com/2016/01/21/new-website-for-black-page-digital > > > thanks, > > -C > > -- > Craig Latta > Black Page Digital > postbus 10784 > 1001ET Amsterdam, Netherlands > craig(a)blackpagedigital.com > +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) > + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS) > > > >

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Rationale for RGClassDefinition>>definition?
by Stephan Eggermont Jan. 21, 2016

Jan. 21, 2016

is defined as ^ self realClass definition instead of ^self definitionSource and not two levels up at RGBehaviorDescription to make it work for MetaClass and Traits. Why is that? Stephan

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[pharo-project/pharo-core] 974630: 50520
by GitHub Jan. 21, 2016

Jan. 21, 2016

Branch: refs/heads/5.0 Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core Commit: 974630dc178b6b59156dac23623fe2dc9f98446c https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core/commit/974630dc178b6b59156dac23… Author: Jenkins Build Server <board(a)pharo-project.org> Date: 2016-01-10 (Sun, 10 Jan 2016) Changed paths: A Morphic-Base.package/LayoutFrame.class/class/costly instance creation/fractions_.st A Morphic-Base.package/LayoutFrame.class/class/costly instance creation/fractions_offsets_.st A Morphic-Base.package/LayoutFrame.class/class/costly instance creation/offsets_.st R Morphic-Base.package/LayoutFrame.class/class/instance creation/fractions_.st R Morphic-Base.package/LayoutFrame.class/class/instance creation/fractions_offsets_.st R Morphic-Base.package/LayoutFrame.class/class/instance creation/offsets_.st M Morphic-Base.package/LayoutFrame.class/instance/accessing/bottomFraction.st A Morphic-Base.package/LayoutFrame.class/instance/comparing/=.st A Morphic-Base.package/LayoutFrame.class/instance/comparing/hash.st A Morphic-Tests.package/LayoutFrameTest.class/instance/tests - conversion/testIdentity.st M Morphic-Tests.package/PaginatedMorphTreeMorphTests.class/instance/tests/testPager.st M Morphic-Widgets-Tree.package/PaginatedMorphTreeModel.class/class/examples/example.st R ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - scripts/script50519.st A ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - scripts/script50520.st R ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - updates/update50519.st A ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - updates/update50520.st M ScriptLoader50.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/public/commentForCurrentUpdate.st Log Message: ----------- 50520 17361 Better LayoutFrame class comments and class method comments are needed https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17361 17363 (LayoutFrame fractions: (0 @ 0 corner: 1 @ 1)) = LayoutFrame identity should be true and it is not. https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17363 17364 PaginateMorph uses Wrong LayoutFrame API https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17364 http://files.pharo.org/image/50/50520.zip

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ESUG '16?
by Alexandre Bergel Jan. 21, 2016

Jan. 21, 2016

Hi! Anyone know when ESUGâ16 will take place? Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

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Re: [Pharo-dev] [squeak-dev] re: Smalltalk website tricks
by Dimitris Chloupis Jan. 21, 2016

Jan. 21, 2016

It first told me close other tabs for it to load a database which was weird I double clicked and then the interface turned 3D sidewise and i could not bring straight , also it shadow created a mouse pointer that was offset to my touch event. Touching was bringing a world menu and there was also a workspace mixed with the images On Thu, 21 Jan 2016 at 20:45, Craig Latta <craig(a)netjam.org> wrote: > > > Does not render well on my iPad and has problems with multi touch. > > Hm, it should be ignoring multi-touch gestures. What happens? And > what rendering problems does it have? I haven't done any > browser-specific optimizations yet. > > > thanks! > > -C > > -- > Craig Latta > netjam.org > +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok) > + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS) > > >

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[ANN] Pharo on Bountysource Salt
by Marcus Denker Jan. 21, 2016

Jan. 21, 2016

Hi, We have set up a Pharo on the new Salt platform of bountysource: https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/pharo This is an easy way to support pharo development. If you support above a certain threshold, being a Salt supporter includes a membership for the Pharo Association. Marcus

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Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-project] [Vm-dev] Re: Can OSProcess functionality be implemented using FFI instead of plugin?
by Eliot Miranda Jan. 21, 2016

Jan. 21, 2016

On Sat, Jan 16, 2016 at 6:00 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck < marianopeck(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi all, > > Sorry for reviving an old thread but I thought it was better to continue > the discussion here because of the context. > As you may have read, the other day I released a first approeach to a > subset of OSProcess based on FFI (posix_spwan() family of functions): > > https://github.com/marianopeck/OSSubprocess > > And with that in mind, I wanted to share a few things with you. The main > 2 problems I found with implementing this with FFI was: > > 1) We have all already agree and discussed that fork+exec cannot be done > in separate FFI calls. So at the very min you need either a plugin method > that does the fork()+exec() OR wrapping a lib like posix_spwan() > > 2) The other main problem, is, as you all said (and mostly Nicolas), is > the problems with the preprocessor (constants, macros, etc). > > With all that said, I was able to get my stuff working. However, I am > still using some primitives of OSProcess plugin because of 2). > > I read Eliot idea and what I don't like is the need of a C compiler in the > user machine. I think that's a high constrain. Then Igor suggested that WE > (developers and maintainers of a certain tool) are the ones that compiles > the little C program to extract constant values etc and then WE provide as > part of our source code, some packages with some SharedPool depending on > the platform/OS. And Igor approach looked a bit better to me. > You misunderstand the proposal. The C compiler is needed /only when changing the set of constants/, i.e. when /developing/ the interface. The C compiler is /not/ needed when deploying. The idea is to a) at development time, e.g. when a new variable is added to a SharedPool containing platform constants, a C program is autogenerated that outputs in some format a description of the names and values of all the constants defined in the pool. One convenient notation is e.g. STON. For the purposes of this discussion let's assume we're using ston, but any format the image an parse (or indeed a shared object the image can load on teh current pkatform) will do. The output of the autogenerated C program would be called something like <SharedPoolName>.<PlatformName>.ston, e.g. UnixConstants.MacOSX64.ston or UnixConstants.Linux32.ston. The ston files can easily be parsed by facilities in the Smalltalk image. b) when deploying the system to a set of platforms one includes all the relevant platform-specific ston files. c) at startup the image checks its current platform. If the platform is the same that it was saved on, no action is taken. But if the platform as changed then the relevant ston file is selected, parsed, and the values for the variables in the shared pool updated to reflect the values of the current platform. So the C compiler is only needed when developing the interface, not when deploying it. > Then Nicolas made a point that if we plan to manage all that complexity at > the image level it may become a hell too. > > So.... what if we take a simpler (probably not better) approach and we > consider the "c program that exports constants and sizes" a VM Plugin? > Let's say we have a UnixPreprocessorPlugin (that would work for OSX, Linux > and other's Unix I imagine for the time being) which provides a function > (that is exported) which answers an array of arrays. For each constant, we > include the name of the constant, the value, and the sizeof(). Then from > image side, we simply do one FFI call, we get the large array and we adapt > it to a SharedPool or whatever kind of object representing that info. > This is what I suggestred in teh first place. That what is autogenerated is a shared object (be it a plgin or a dll doesn't matter, it is machine code generated by a C compiler form an autogenerated C program compiled with the platform's C compiler) that can be loaded at run-time and interrogated to fetch the values of a set of variables. But I think that the textual notation suggested above is simpler. The test files are easier to distribute and change. Shared objects and plugins have a habit of going stale, and there needs to be metadata in there to describe the set of constants etc, which is tricky to generate and parse because it is binary (pointer sizes, etc, etc). Instead a simple textual format should be much more robust. One could even edit by hand to add new constants. It would be easy to make the textual file a versioned file. Etc, etc. > > I know that different users will need different constants. But let's say > the infrastructure (plugin etc) is already done. And let's say I am a user > that I want to build something with FFI and I need some constants that I > see are not defined. Then I can simply add the ones I need in the plugin, > and next VM release will have those. If Cog gets moved to Github, then this > is even easier. Everybody can do a PR with the constants he needs. And in > fact, if we have the infrastructure in place, I think that we each of us > spend half an hour, we may have almost everything we need. > > For example, I can add myself all those for signals (to use kill() from > FFI), all those from fcntl (to make none blocking pipes), all those from > wait()/waitpid() family (so that I can do a waitpid() with WNOHANG), etc > etc etc. > > I know it's not the best approach but it's something that could be done > very easily and would allow A LOT of stuff to be moved to FFI just because > we have no access to preprocess constants or sizeof() (to know how to > allocate). I also know this won't cover macros and other stuff. But still. > > If you think this is a good idea, I can spend the time to do it. > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 10:09 AM, Nick Ager <nick.ager(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> <snip> >> Well, like opendbx, maybe because opengl has quite standard interface... >> </snip> >> >> and >> >> <snip> >> It's not that it's not doable, it's that we gonna reinvent gaz plant >> and it gonna be so boring... >> I'd like to see a proof of concept, even if we restrict to libc, libm, >> kernel.dll, msvcrt.dll ... >> </snip> >> >> <snip> >> Is the unix style select() >> ubiquitous or should I use WaitForMultipleObject() on Windows? Are >> specification of read/write streams implementation machine independant >> (bsd/sysv/others...) >> </snip> >> >> Perhaps *a* way forward is to try to find existing projects which have >> already created cross-platform abstractions for platform specific >> functionality. Then we can use FFI to access that interface in a similar >> way to OpenGL and OpenDBX. For example NodeJs works across unixes - perhaps >> they have a useful cross-platform abstraction, boost has abstractions of >> IPC etc >> >> Nick >> > > > > -- > Mariano > http://marianopeck.wordpress.com > > -- _,,,^..^,,,_ best, Eliot

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