Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
Hi guys I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with Serge Stinckwich. Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big thanks*** Didier. We would like to do several things: - Work on "Hows to" The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the math is too large :) so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..." - histomgram (simple, based on distribution) - Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library This morning we started to implement a ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the objects available in SciPharo. Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can plug other distribution for having controlled random number. - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :) Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude So tell us :) Hernan ?? Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution? Vincent: covariance? CPA? Philippe: times series Serge R frames? Sami: Better random number and various distributions? - Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September with a recording session. Either at IRD Bondy or Lille. - Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a better cover and title :) Stef
This is great news! I would be interested in time series and distributions as well. Cheers, Doru
On Mar 2, 2016, at 2:33 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Hi guys
I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with Serge Stinckwich. Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big thanks*** Didier.
We would like to do several things:
- Work on "Hows to" The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the math is too large :) so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..." - histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
- Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library This morning we started to implement a ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the objects available in SciPharo. Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can plug other distribution for having controlled random number.
- Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :) Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude So tell us :)
Hernan ?? Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution? Vincent: covariance? CPA? Philippe: times series Serge R frames? Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
- Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September with a recording session. Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
- Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a better cover and title :)
Stef
-- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Obvious things are difficult to teach."
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
This is great news!
I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series. -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? 2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com>:
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
This is great news!
I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
+1 Nicolas Cellier wrote
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich <
serge.stinckwich@
>:
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba <
tudor@
> wrote:
This is great news!
I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Call-about-Numerical-Methods-in-Pharo-tp4881998p488203... Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
We can think of a more neutral name. Any idea for a new name ? Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Why just don't we honor Didier H. Besset and leave it as it was, Numerical Methods in Smalltalk? That way, regardless of your favorite Smalltalk implementation, there will always be a "Numerical Methods in Smalltalk" package somewhere! The same way there's no GlorpPharo : it's Glorp everywhere!  ----------------- Benoît St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) From: Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :) On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
We can think of a more neutral name. Any idea for a new name ? Regards, -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much better in my opinion PhaNum is also okay to me. Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Mar 2, 2016, at 3:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com <mailto:serge.stinckwich@gmail.com>>: On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>> wrote:
This is great news!
I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ <http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/>
2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much better in my opinion PhaNum is also okay to me.
SciSmalltalk is ugly. Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk. SciSmalltalk is just: - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration) - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub) If you name the Metacello configuration SciPharo, it's OK, because it does not really exclude any goodwill contributing from another Smalltalk flavour. If you name the repositories SciPharo, you start tainting a bit more... But well.
Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
On Mar 2, 2016, at 3:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier < nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com>:
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
This is great news!
I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much better in my opinion PhaNum is also okay to me.
SciSmalltalk is ugly.
I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk. SciSmalltalk is just: - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration) - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ... We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book. -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much better in my opinion PhaNum is also okay to me.
SciSmalltalk is ugly.
I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
Just a random line of thought... PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi --> numqi "An energy around numbers" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi cheers -ben
Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk. SciSmalltalk is just: - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration) - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ... We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much better in my opinion PhaNum is also okay to me.
SciSmalltalk is ugly.
I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
Just a random line of thought... PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
Nice ! Any other ideas ? -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 11:32 PM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much better in my opinion PhaNum is also okay to me.
SciSmalltalk is ugly.
I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
Just a random line of thought... PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
Nice !
Any other ideas ?
Well, since you asked... Another approach is to consider who the biggest competitor is - the one you'd like to be compared to and would like to beat. Maybe its Julia(?), which currently got some buzz. From a cursory skim, its multiple dispatch, dynamic typing and Scheme & Common Lisp influences [1] somewhat echoes Smalltalk. We have similar facility as [2] to already inspect method bytecode and I reckon we might(?) be able to provide a view of the JITed machine code and might(?) be possible someday be able to hand-tune that machine code, which would be good to promote our system as a similar one-stop-shop as described in [2]. So... along the philosophy that when a fight is starting, you should *first* punch the *biggest* guy on the nose... you could be provocative and name it Gaston or Fatou [3], except then I discover the Julia name apparently has nothing to do with Julia Sets [4]. So.... maybe Julia --> Juliet --> Romeo --> { Romiio, Romiea, Romiia, Rhomia } -- these being a selection of variations with high goognique**. However, on the one hand, we'd need to gain the credibility to back this up, but on the other hand, its not just about punching some on the nose... such naming can be aspirational. The research presented by Jim Collins in"Good To Great" advises its quite beneficial to have an adversary you can compete against in a *friendly* way. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_(programming_language) [2] http://www.evanmiller.org/why-im-betting-on-julia.html [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_set [4] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/29290780/what-does-the-name-of-julia-the-... ** My this instant newly contrived portmanteau for "google unique".
On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:59 AM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 11:32 PM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much better in my opinion PhaNum is also okay to me.
SciSmalltalk is ugly.
I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
Just a random line of thought... PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
Nice !
Any other ideas ?
Well, since you asked... Another approach is to consider who the biggest competitor is - the one you'd like to be compared to and would like to beat. Maybe its Julia(?), which currently got some buzz. From a cursory skim, its multiple dispatch, dynamic typing and Scheme & Common Lisp influences [1] somewhat echoes Smalltalk. We have similar facility as [2] to already inspect method bytecode and I reckon we might(?) be able to provide a view of the JITed machine code and might(?) be possible someday be able to hand-tune that machine code, which would be good to promote our system as a similar one-stop-shop as described in [2].
So... along the philosophy that when a fight is starting, you should *first* punch the *biggest* guy on the nose... you could be provocative and name it Gaston or Fatou [3], except then I discover the Julia name apparently has nothing to do with Julia Sets [4]. So.... maybe Julia --> Juliet --> Romeo --> { Romiio, Romiea, Romiia, Rhomia } -- these being a selection of variations with high goognique**. However, on the one hand, we'd need to gain the credibility to back this up, but on the other hand, its not just about punching some on the nose... such naming can be aspirational. The research presented by Jim Collins in"Good To Great" advises its quite beneficial to have an adversary you can compete against in a *friendly* way.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_(programming_language) [2] http://www.evanmiller.org/why-im-betting-on-julia.html [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_set [4] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/29290780/what-does-the-name-of-julia-the-...
** My this instant newly contrived portmanteau for "google unique".
And btw, it might be good to pick the eyes out of this discussion on Julia for points where do (or will) align and use similar language to promote our Numqi/Abacii system. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7109982 cheers -ben
Hello. NumSt is good name, maybe ⺠Best regards Laszlo Zsolt 2016.03.05. 16:34 ezt Ãrta ("Serge Stinckwich" <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com
):
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much better in my opinion PhaNum is also okay to me.
SciSmalltalk is ugly.
I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
Just a random line of thought... PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
Nice !
Any other ideas ?
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
I was thinking as this name : Abacus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus A calculating tool ! On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much better in my opinion PhaNum is also okay to me.
SciSmalltalk is ugly.
I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
Just a random line of thought... PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
cheers -ben
Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk. SciSmalltalk is just: - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration) - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ... We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
On 05 Mar 2016, at 16:34, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
I was thinking as this name : Abacus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus A calculating tool !
I like that one (BTW, thanks for doing this project, Serge & Co, these higher level, domain specific projects are really very important)
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much better in my opinion PhaNum is also okay to me.
SciSmalltalk is ugly.
I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
Just a random line of thought... PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
cheers -ben
Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk. SciSmalltalk is just: - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration) - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ... We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Or we can use the name from other languages like LiczydÅo in Polish :)
On 05 Mar 2016, at 16:34, Serge Stinckwich <Serge.Stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
I was thinking as this name : Abacus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus A calculating tool !
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much better in my opinion PhaNum is also okay to me.
SciSmalltalk is ugly.
I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
Just a random line of thought... PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
cheers -ben
Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk. SciSmalltalk is just: - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration) - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ... We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:48 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <yuriy.tymchuk@me.com> wrote:
Or we can use the name from other languages like LiczydÅo in Polish :)
I have some Polish ancestors, but I'm not sure people will remember the name of the project ;-)
On 05 Mar 2016, at 16:34, Serge Stinckwich <Serge.Stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
I was thinking as this name : Abacus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus A calculating tool !
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much better in my opinion PhaNum is also okay to me.
SciSmalltalk is ugly.
I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
Just a random line of thought... PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
cheers -ben
Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk. SciSmalltalk is just: - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration) - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ... We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
On Mar 5, 2016, at 7:34 AM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
I was thinking as this name : Abacus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus A calculating tool !
Good!
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much better in my opinion PhaNum is also okay to me.
SciSmalltalk is ugly.
I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
Just a random line of thought... PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
cheers -ben
Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk. SciSmalltalk is just: - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration) - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ... We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:57 AM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mar 5, 2016, at 7:34 AM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
I was thinking as this name : Abacus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus A calculating tool !
Good!
But "abacus" --> 18,000,000 results, is not goognique. Maybe a variation "abacii" --> 2,800 results, as in "more than one calculating tool". cheers -ben
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier <nicolas.cellier.aka.nice@gmail.com> wrote:
2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel@me.com>:
I personally never liked the name âSciSmalltalkâ. âSciPharoâ is much better in my opinion PhaNum is also okay to me.
SciSmalltalk is ugly.
I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
Just a random line of thought... PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
cheers -ben
Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk. SciSmalltalk is just: - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration) - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ... We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
Stef
2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich@gmail.com <mailto:serge.stinckwich@gmail.com>>:
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com <mailto:tudor@tudorgirba.com>> wrote: > This is great news! > > I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.
-- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude. C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old. Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me. Offended, Eliot
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ... Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk. Stef Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
Offended, Eliot
Emotional arguments do not change facts. Contributions of 1000's from 1970's make all of programming languages what they are. Acknowledgement of heritage period. Carry on with the great work, which future generations will acknowledge, even more the contributions of all around Pharo around today, I am sure. On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:40 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk.
Stef
Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
Offended, Eliot
Stef,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk.
I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively? I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk. And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
Stef
Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
Offended, Eliot
On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
Stef,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk.
I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that. If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW). We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason. Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea: http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
Stef
Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
Offended, Eliot
On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
Stef,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk.
I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78, -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16, Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5". As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room", *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved" is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi communities.) cheers -ben
Stef
Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
Offended, Eliot
On 05 Mar 2016, at 19:57, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
Stef,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk.
I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78, -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16, Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room", *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved" is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi communities.)
cheers -ben
Really, Ben, are you suggesting we stop calling it Pharo ? Come on, let's be serious. (BTW, this thread started with a discussion about the naming of an external library, which is entirely up to the main developers driving that library, not us). What makes Pharo different is this: you (and so many others) came to this community as a stranger (for us), started contributing in various ways, we saw that you were serious/good and we accepted your work, letting you work on very fundamental code that had the potential to break everything. There is simply no way that you could have done or be allowed to do that in any other Smalltalk, let alone the place where we forked from. It is as simple as that. That is why it is called Pharo, why we say Pharo is yours.
Stef
Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
Offended, Eliot
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 05 Mar 2016, at 19:57, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
Stef,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk.
I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78, -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16, Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room", *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved" is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi communities.)
cheers -ben
Really, Ben, are you suggesting we stop calling it Pharo ?
Come on, let's be serious.
(BTW, this thread started with a discussion about the naming of an external library, which is entirely up to the main developers driving that library, not us).
Yes you are right, sorry for the noise. Let's move this thread outside pharo-dev. -- Serge Stinckwich UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Sven,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 1:05 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 05 Mar 2016, at 19:57, Ben Coman <btc@openinworld.com> wrote:
On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
Stef,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk.
I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78, -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16, Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room", *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved" is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi communities.)
cheers -ben
Really, Ben, are you suggesting we stop calling it Pharo ?
That's not at all what I read Ben as suggesting. See below...
Come on, let's be serious.
(BTW, this thread started with a discussion about the naming of an external library, which is entirely up to the main developers driving that library, not us).
What makes Pharo different is this: you (and so many others) came to this community as a stranger (for us), started contributing in various ways, we saw that you were serious/good and we accepted your work, letting you work on very fundamental code that had the potential to break everything. There is simply no way that you could have done or be allowed to do that in any other Smalltalk, let alone the place where we forked from. It is as simple as that. That is why it is called Pharo, why we say Pharo is yours.
Look at your language (with which I am happy). "There is simply no way that you could have done or be allowed to do that in any other Smalltalk...". That implies Pharo is a Smalltalk but it is its own version. That's /not/ what "Smalltalk-inspired" means at all. When one tries to say Pharo is not a Smalltalk, then I have an issue. No one is saying that Pharo is not unique or saying anything pejorative. All we're saying is that Pharo is a Smalltalk.
Stef
Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
Offended, Eliot
On 03/05/2016 12:57 PM, Ben Coman wrote:
On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
Stef,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk. I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing. Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78, -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16, Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room", *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved" is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi communities.)
cheers -ben
I have had this argument also from the pro-Smalltalk side of things. What persuaded me to be more liberal and permissive in the argument pro-Pharo is simply this. All of the Smalltalks above were done be the creators of Smalltalk. They had ownership and rights to the name Smalltalk and the directions it had the freedom to pursue. The creators of Pharo do not have such ownership to the Smalltalk history, heritage or name. Do they have the rights to say that the direction they take Pharo is the direction of Smalltalk? What if Squeak diverges in a different direction? Who is to say which is the standard bearer for the name of Smalltalk. Caution says no. Pharo doesn't have that right. The creators of Smalltalk did not hand off the stewardship of Smalltalk to Pharo. I am happy to be proven that Pharo has legitimate rights to carry on the name of Smalltalk in the directions it goes, regardless of what they may be. Just one opinion of someone who is both pro-Smalltalk and pro-Pharo. And strongly understands words have meaning. Shalom. Jimmie
Jimmie,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 03/05/2016 12:57 PM, Ben Coman wrote: On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
Stef,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk. I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing. Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78, -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16, Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room", *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved" is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi communities.)
cheers -ben
I have had this argument also from the pro-Smalltalk side of things. What persuaded me to be more liberal and permissive in the argument pro-Pharo is simply this. All of the Smalltalks above were done be the creators of Smalltalk. They had ownership and rights to the name Smalltalk and the directions it had the freedom to pursue. The creators of Pharo do not have such ownership to the Smalltalk history, heritage or name. Do they have the rights to say that the direction they take Pharo is the direction of Smalltalk? What if Squeak diverges in a different direction? Who is to say which is the standard bearer for the name of Smalltalk.
Caution says no. Pharo doesn't have that right. The creators of Smalltalk did not hand off the stewardship of Smalltalk to Pharo. I am happy to be proven that Pharo has legitimate rights to carry on the name of Smalltalk in the directions it goes, regardless of what they may be.
AFAIA no one has trademarked Smalltalk, only Smalltalk-80. The situation seems to me analogous to programming languages being likened to vehicles, the dynamic languages to flying vehicles, Smalltalk to jet plane and Pharo to an Airbus 380. There is no way anyone is going to prevent someone calling a jet plane a jet plane. No one other than Airbus can call a plant they produce an Airbus. It dies not make sense to say an Airbus 380 is not a jet plane.
Just one opinion of someone who is both pro-Smalltalk and pro-Pharo. And strongly understands words have meaning.
Shalom.
Jimmie
On 03/05/2016 08:33 PM, Eliot Miranda wrote:
Jimmie,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Jimmie Houchin <jlhouchin@gmail.com> wrote:
On 03/05/2016 12:57 PM, Ben Coman wrote: On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@stfx.eu> wrote:
On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
Stef,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk. I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing. Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents. The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78, -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16, Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room", *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved" is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi communities.)
cheers -ben I have had this argument also from the pro-Smalltalk side of things. What persuaded me to be more liberal and permissive in the argument pro-Pharo is simply this. All of the Smalltalks above were done be the creators of Smalltalk. They had ownership and rights to the name Smalltalk and the directions it had the freedom to pursue. The creators of Pharo do not have such ownership to the Smalltalk history, heritage or name. Do they have the rights to say that the direction they take Pharo is the direction of Smalltalk? What if Squeak diverges in a different direction? Who is to say which is the standard bearer for the name of Smalltalk.
Caution says no. Pharo doesn't have that right. The creators of Smalltalk did not hand off the stewardship of Smalltalk to Pharo. I am happy to be proven that Pharo has legitimate rights to carry on the name of Smalltalk in the directions it goes, regardless of what they may be. AFAIA no one has trademarked Smalltalk, only Smalltalk-80.
The situation seems to me analogous to programming languages being likened to vehicles, the dynamic languages to flying vehicles, Smalltalk to jet plane and Pharo to an Airbus 380. There is no way anyone is going to prevent someone calling a jet plane a jet plane. No one other than Airbus can call a plant they produce an Airbus. It dies not make sense to say an Airbus 380 is not a jet plane.
I personally am okay with that understanding. As I said, I am pro-Smalltalk. I would be thrilled with Pharo associating itself with Smalltalk as a Smalltalk. I like Smalltalk. :) I am proud of the Smalltalk heritage and ancestry. However, like with Smalltalk. I do not have a say with Pharo either. :) Shalom. Jimmie
left blank on purpose Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
Stef,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote:
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk.
I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
Stef
Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr <mailto:stepharo@free.fr>> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
Offended, Eliot
Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk - First because we make it to free us from the past. - In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90 do not discard Pharo because - "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well in team" - "smalltalk oh it does not scale" - "I cannot edit my code with emacs" - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10 min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)" - I did not get how you work in team - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn" - "Smalltalk is monolithic" - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the outside world" a guy organising OOPSLA - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu programmes en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas etre si super que cela...." I do not care that these statements are right or wrong. I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we can show that they are wrong. There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk. No more no less. So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general. So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it. There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk to exist in 2050. The future is much more important that the history. You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you add to cross the street to fetch water.
left blank on purpose
Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
Stef,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk.
I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
Stef
Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
Offended, Eliot
Sorry to say Stéphane, but those arguments are just as funny as wrong. You know what? I can copy some code from Smalltalk/X, Dolphin Smalltalk, VisualAge, ObjectStudio, VisualWorks, ObjectWorks, Smalltalk MT, Squeak, VSE, and many others and save it in Pharo and *it will compile* !! So I guess Pharo is Smalltalk. It's not because you renamed the workspace to Playground that it's not Smalltalk! If it's not Smalltalk, tell me what it is! And, btw, I can also take some Pharo code and import it in all the dialects mentionned above. So I guess Pharo, like it or not, with all the fancy names and *we don't want no fucking backward compatibility and we try to distance ourselves as far as possible from all Smalltalks* is still Smalltalk. Instead of spending a sh*tload of bytes arguing about this nonsense, let's move on to do some coding... In Pharo, in Squeak, in Dolphin, in VAST, in VW, in ObjectStudio, in Amber in whatever... I'm a Smalltalker : I don't give a f**k about the dialect. I love Smalltalk, whatever the dialect.  ----------------- Benoît St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) From: stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> To: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2016 3:48 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :) Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk    - First because we make it to free us from the past.    - In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90 do not discard Pharo because             - "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well in team"             - "smalltalk oh it does not scale"             - "I cannot edit my code with emacs"             - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10 min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)"             - I did not get how you work in team             - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn"             - "Smalltalk is monolithic"             - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the outside world" a guy organising OOPSLA             - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu programmes en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas             etre si super que cela...." I do not care that these statements are right or wrong. I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we can show that they are wrong. There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk. No more no less. So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general. So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it. There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk to exist in 2050. The future is much more important that the history. You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you add to cross the street to fetch water. left blank on purpose Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit : Stef, On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote: You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than    python, java, c#, lua, ... Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk. I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name.  I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol.  Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively? I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community.  But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong.  And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk. And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it.  Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk.  Pharo is the real thing. Stef Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit : On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote: SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!! When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude. C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old. Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me. Offended, Eliot
+100 On 06.03.2016 09:48, stepharo wrote:
Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk
- First because we make it to free us from the past.
- In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90 do not discard Pharo because
- "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well in team" - "smalltalk oh it does not scale" - "I cannot edit my code with emacs" - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10 min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)" - I did not get how you work in team - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn" - "Smalltalk is monolithic" - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the outside world" a guy organising OOPSLA - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu programmes en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas etre si super que cela...."
I do not care that these statements are right or wrong. I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we can show that they are wrong. There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk. No more no less.
So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general.
So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it. There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk to exist in 2050. The future is much more important that the history.
You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you add to cross the street to fetch water.
left blank on purpose
Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
Stef,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk.
I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
Stef
Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
Offended, Eliot
Sorry guys but I dont think this is non sense because you may be coding in Pharo and Smalltalk for a long time, but as a beginner I was confused by this, and to this day I am still confused why Pharo is not calling itself a modern implementation of Smalltalk. Even in Pharo by Example there was no mention at all the Pharo is a Squeak fork, nothing, now there is (few week before) , guess who added it. No mention about Squeak in our website whatsoever. Why ? Do we just fork and forget about them ? Also this whole guilt about the so called "failure" or "death" of smalltalk is hilarious. Smalltalk was never popular and we certainly wont be with Pharo, because in the end its very unfamiliar and most coders dont like going outside their comfort zone. Personally I am fine with that but this is why I use Pharo to get outside my comfort zone and think outside the box, but I dont kid myself, I belong to a tiny minority. I am sorry if you feel that we derail the thread, but some of us feel very uncomfortable by some people trying to mislead newcomers that Pharo will at some point brake away from Smalltalk heritage when we all know that wont happen for the following reasons 1) Smalltalk is an awesome language and its failure to become popular has nothing to do with the IDE and the language and more to do with lack of libraries, documentation and third party tool support plus of course the all important familiarity b) Most likely a ton of Squeak and older Smalltalk code will remain in Pharo because none sane enough would removed code that has stood the test of time, is well designed and works c) Even if you have a tiny sense or realism you will realize that the reason why people use Pharo is because is a modern implementation of smalltalk, trying to connect with modern technologies but at same time remaining a smalltalk in the core. And finally lets take into account that all languages are evolving. I was coding C++ till 1996 and was very frustrated with the language, manual memory management, inflexible type system, horrible GUI libraries (MFC). Now I learn C++ 11 which means an almost fully dynamic type systems (see auto , templates etc) , automatic memory management (smart pointers), vast array of greatly design GUI and graphics libraries (QT, Unreal, GTK etc). In 20 years C++ has become night and day, sure still much more ugly than Pharo but far, far better . Did we stop calling it C++ ? I totally agree, that this discussion arises few time per year and in the end we dont agree. But I dont post here to make you change your mind, I know people rarely do that, I post here because I want to make crystal to begineers viewing this mailing that for me and many others: *Pharo IS Smalltalk, Pharo IS a Squeak fork, Pharo is a modern implementation that tries to push forward but respects its heritage and pays credit to it. * Saying that if this numpy variant library intends to target only Pharo then it makes more sense to call it SciPharo. On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:30 PM Volkert <volkert@komponentenwerkstatt.de> wrote:
+100
On 06.03.2016 09:48, stepharo wrote:
Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk
- First because we make it to free us from the past.
- In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90 do not discard Pharo because
- "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well in team" - "smalltalk oh it does not scale" - "I cannot edit my code with emacs" - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10 min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)" - I did not get how you work in team - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn" - "Smalltalk is monolithic" - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the outside world" a guy organising OOPSLA - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu programmes en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas etre si super que cela...."
I do not care that these statements are right or wrong. I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we can show that they are wrong. There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk. No more no less.
So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general.
So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it. There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk to exist in 2050. The future is much more important that the history.
You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you add to cross the street to fetch water.
left blank on purpose
Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
Stef,
On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than python, java, c#, lua, ...
Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk.
I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
Stef
Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
Offended, Eliot
Amen! My lastname is St-Jean, like it or not I'm closer to Ducasse than Hollansworth! I discovered Smalltalk with ObjectWorks on AIX : I'm closer to Pharo than Python, C, C++, C#, Ruby, Snobol, Dart, Go or any other language... Like it or not, I'm closer to Smalltalk than Java, COBOL or any other retarded programming language... I've been working as a consultant in Smalltalk since the 90s. I don't care : VW, VAST, VSE as long as it's Smalltalk! I'm closer to Pharo than I am to anything else (except Modula-2). This stupid war is sooooooo stupid! If you know what the DNU acronym means, you're a Smalltalker. Period. Pharo can go its own way (whether I like it nor not), but it's still Smalltalk! These guys (the Pharoers, and Stéphane Ducasse) have made *tremendous* steps forward. Like "how come nobody ever did that for Smalltalk except James Robertson" ? I like Pharo. I fell in love with VW 2.5. Vous êtes si belles, vous toutes! I love Smalltalk!  ----------------- Benoît St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) From: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2016 7:00 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :) Sorry guys but I dont think this is non sense because you may be coding in Pharo and Smalltalk for a long time, but as a beginner I was confused by this, and to this day I am still confused why Pharo is not calling itself a modern implementation of Smalltalk. Even in Pharo by Example there was no mention at all the Pharo is a Squeak fork, nothing, now there is (few week before) , guess who added it. No mention about Squeak in our website whatsoever. Why ? Do we just fork and forget about them ? Also this whole guilt about the so called "failure" or "death" of smalltalk is hilarious. Smalltalk was never popular and we certainly wont be with Pharo, because in the end its very unfamiliar and most coders dont like going outside their comfort zone. Personally I am fine with that but this is why I use Pharo to get outside my comfort zone and think outside the box, but I dont kid myself, I belong to a tiny minority. I am sorry if you feel that we derail the thread, but some of us feel very uncomfortable by some people trying to mislead newcomers that Pharo will at some point brake away from Smalltalk heritage when we all know that wont happen for the following reasons 1) Smalltalk is an awesome language and its failure to become popular has nothing to do with the IDE and the language and more to do with lack of libraries, documentation and third party tool support plus of course the all important familiarity b) Most likely a ton of Squeak and older Smalltalk code will remain in Pharo because none sane enough would removed code that has stood the test of time, is well designed and works c) Even if you have a tiny sense or realism you will realize that the reason why people use Pharo is because is a modern implementation of smalltalk, trying to connect with modern technologies but at same time remaining a smalltalk in the core. And finally lets take into account that all languages are evolving. I was coding C++ till 1996 and was very frustrated with the language, manual memory management, inflexible type system, horrible GUI libraries (MFC). Now I learn C++ 11 which means an almost fully dynamic type systems (see auto , templates etc) , automatic memory management (smart pointers), vast array of greatly design GUI and graphics libraries (QT, Unreal, GTK etc). In 20 years C++ has become night and day, sure still much more ugly than Pharo but far, far better . Did we stop calling it C++ ? I totally agree, that this discussion arises few time per year and in the end we dont agree. But I dont post here to make you change your mind, I know people rarely do that, I post here because I want to make crystal to begineers viewing this mailing that for me and many others: Pharo IS Smalltalk, Pharo IS a Squeak fork, Pharo is a modern implementation that tries to push forward but respects its heritage and pays credit to it.   Saying that if this numpy variant library intends to target only Pharo then it makes more sense to call it SciPharo. On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:30 PM Volkert <volkert@komponentenwerkstatt.de> wrote: +100 On 06.03.2016 09:48, stepharo wrote: Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk    - First because we make it to free us from the past.    - In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90 do not discard Pharo because             - "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well in team"             - "smalltalk oh it does not scale"             - "I cannot edit my code with emacs"             - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10 min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)"             - I did not get how you work in team             - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn"             - "Smalltalk is monolithic"             - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the outside world" a guy organising OOPSLA             - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu programmes en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas             etre si super que cela...." I do not care that these statements are right or wrong. I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we can show that they are wrong. There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk. No more no less. So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general. So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it. There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk to exist in 2050. The future is much more important that the history. You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you add to cross the street to fetch water. left blank on purpose Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit : Stef, On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote: You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum? Do you think that people do not know how to count? In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than    python, java, c#, lua, ... Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js. Seriously. Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you. I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity. Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. Afterall I may be wrong. Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to promote smalltalk. I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively? I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk. And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing. Stef Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit : On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote: SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split? Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!! When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude. C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old. Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me. Offended, Eliot
+1 On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 6:48 AM, Eliot Miranda <eliot.miranda@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV. What is so much pharo specific in this library? Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a smart move. There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift) so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
Offended, Eliot
frankly all this zealot mails do not have any sense. first, SciSmalltalk is a project made fundamentally by Serge, and is Serge who has pointed he wants a change of name for something sexier⦠what is the problem? second, by discussing a nonsense (because is subjective and everybody has a different opinion) you are highjacking the real purpose of this mail: a call to the community to improve the numerical methods support in Pharo. So, please, can we stay cool and go back to discuss what is really important? cheers, Esteban
On 02 Mar 2016, at 14:33, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Hi guys
I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with Serge Stinckwich. Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big thanks*** Didier.
We would like to do several things:
- Work on "Hows to" The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the math is too large :) so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..." - histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
- Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library This morning we started to implement a ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the objects available in SciPharo. Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can plug other distribution for having controlled random number.
- Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :) Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude So tell us :)
Hernan ?? Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution? Vincent: covariance? CPA? Philippe: times series Serge R frames? Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
- Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September with a recording session. Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
- Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a better cover and title :)
Stef
On 05 Mar 2016, at 11:37, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
frankly all this zealot mails do not have any sense.
first, SciSmalltalk is a project made fundamentally by Serge, and is Serge who has pointed he wants a change of name for something sexier⦠what is the problem? second, by discussing a nonsense (because is subjective and everybody has a different opinion) you are highjacking the real purpose of this mail: a call to the community to improve the numerical methods support in Pharo.
So, please, can we stay cool and go back to discuss what is really important?
+100
cheers, Esteban
On 02 Mar 2016, at 14:33, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Hi guys
I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with Serge Stinckwich. Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big thanks*** Didier.
We would like to do several things:
- Work on "Hows to" The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the math is too large :) so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..." - histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
- Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library This morning we started to implement a ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the objects available in SciPharo. Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can plug other distribution for having controlled random number.
- Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :) Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude So tell us :)
Hernan ?? Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution? Vincent: covariance? CPA? Philippe: times series Serge R frames? Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
- Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September with a recording session. Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
- Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a better cover and title :)
Stef
+1000 ----------------- Benoît St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) From: Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> To: Pharo Development List <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2016 5:37 AM Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :) frankly all this zealot mails do not have any sense. first, SciSmalltalk is a project made fundamentally by Serge, and is Serge who has pointed he wants a change of name for something sexier⦠what is the problem? second, by discussing a nonsense (because is subjective and everybody has a different opinion) you are highjacking the real purpose of this mail: a call to the community to improve the numerical methods support in Pharo. So, please, can we stay cool and go back to discuss what is really important? cheers, Esteban
On 02 Mar 2016, at 14:33, stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
Hi guys
I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with Serge Stinckwich. Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big thanks*** Didier.
We would like to do several things:
  - Work on "Hows to"    The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the math is too large :)   so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."       - histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
  - Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library   This morning we started to implement a ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the   objects available in SciPharo.     Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can plug other distribution for having     controlled random number.
  - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :)   Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude   So tell us :)
      Hernan ??       Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?       Vincent: covariance? CPA?       Philippe: times series       Serge R frames?       Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
  - Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September with a recording session.   Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
  - Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a better cover and title :)
Stef
participants (17)
-
Alexandre Bergel -
Ben Coman -
Benoit St-Jean -
Dimitris Chloupis -
Eliot Miranda -
Esteban Lorenzano -
Jimmie Houchin -
Laszlo Zsolt Kiss -
Nicolas Cellier -
Paul DeBruicker -
S Krish -
Serge Stinckwich -
stepharo -
Sven Van Caekenberghe -
Tudor Girba -
Volkert -
Yuriy Tymchuk