Re: [Pharo-project] Are Objects really hard?
On Feb 13, 2012, at 2:47 PM, Guido Stepken wrote:
I did analyse some of these "memory pumping effects" in Pharo. Come from overuse of "inheritance", that causes big objects with hundreds of methods to be created and garbaged, just for short tasks.
The number of methods do not influence *at all* the size on an object. Methods are on the class, the object point to its class, no need to allocate *any* memory. The only thing that costs memory is *state*. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
Ok. Then it must have been the ghost, that causes heavy "memory pumping", even under zero load, see CPU monitor. Its quite difficult not to say *impossible* to run Pharo even for simple tasks within a small vserver account with 256 or 512 MB reserved or dynamically assigned memory space. But i agree, that Smalltalk *can* be designed to run well within 1MB of RAM :-) have fun, Guido Stepken Am 13.02.2012 15:04 schrieb "Marcus Denker" <marcus.denker@inria.fr>:
On Feb 13, 2012, at 2:47 PM, Guido Stepken wrote:
I did analyse some of these "memory pumping effects" in Pharo. Come from overuse of "inheritance", that causes big objects with hundreds of methods to be created and garbaged, just for short tasks.
The number of methods do not influence *at all* the size on an object. Methods are on the class, the object point to its class, no need to allocate *any* memory. The only thing that costs memory is *state*.
Marcus
-- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
Hi, On 13 February 2012 16:32, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Ok. Then it must have been the ghost, that causes heavy "memory pumping", even under zero load, see CPU monitor.
... so far for the "analysis". :-)
But i agree, that Smalltalk *can* be designed to run well within 1MB of RAM
pah. 1 MB. Sheer luxury. 64 kB RAM, 256 kB Flash: Smalltalk running on Lego Mindstorms NXT. Questions? Michael ;-)
The code is available here: http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/projects/nxtalk/ Alain On 13 févr. 12, at 17:12, Nick Ager wrote:
Hi Michael,
pah. 1 MB. Sheer luxury. 64 kB RAM, 256 kB Flash: Smalltalk running on Lego Mindstorms NXT. Questions?
Is this still being developed? Is the code available?
Nick
Hi Nick, Am 13.02.2012 um 17:12 schrieb Nick Ager <nick.ager@gmail.com>:
pah. 1 MB. Sheer luxury. 64 kB RAM, 256 kB Flash: Smalltalk running on Lego Mindstorms NXT. Questions?
Is this still being developed? Is the code available?
it is dormant, but available: http://www.hpi.uni-potsdam.de/hirschfeld/projects/nxtalk/ By all means let me know if you're doing anything with it, please! :-) Best, Michael
On 13 Feb 2012, at 16:32, Guido Stepken wrote:
Its quite difficult not to say *impossible* to run Pharo even for simple tasks within a small vserver account with 256 or 512 MB reserved or dynamically assigned memory space.
This is ridiculous: a current stock Pharo server image (i.e. non-stripped) compares favorably with any other dynamic language. http://zn.stfx.eu/zn/index.html#livedemo I am currently running 5 VM's on an AWS EC2 micro instance (613MB RAM, up to 2 ECU (1 ECU = the equivalent CPU capacity of a 1.0-1.2 GHz 2007 Opteron or 2007 Xeon processor)). Setup can also be quite simple: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Core-HTTP-Server-OneCommandLine-Demo-td3702218.h... Sven
Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O, leaving no load for Pharo at all, serving static webpages even. Tnx 4 your funny comment! Have fun, Guido Stepken Am 13.02.2012 17:08 schrieb "Sven Van Caekenberghe" <sven@beta9.be>:
On 13 Feb 2012, at 16:32, Guido Stepken wrote:
Its quite difficult not to say *impossible* to run Pharo even for simple tasks within a small vserver account with 256 or 512 MB reserved or dynamically assigned memory space.
This is ridiculous: a current stock Pharo server image (i.e. non-stripped) compares favorably with any other dynamic language.
http://zn.stfx.eu/zn/index.html#livedemo
I am currently running 5 VM's on an AWS EC2 micro instance (613MB RAM, up to 2 ECU (1 ECU = the equivalent CPU capacity of a 1.0-1.2 GHz 2007 Opteron or 2007 Xeon processor)).
Setup can also be quite simple:
http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Core-HTTP-Server-OneCommandLine-Demo-td3702218.h...
Sven
Hey Guido, I thought you said you were leaving us! Just too hard to stay away, eh? :-) -- Cheers, Peter On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com>wrote:
Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O, leaving no load for Pharo at all, serving static webpages even.
Tnx 4 your funny comment!
Have fun, Guido Stepken Am 13.02.2012 17:08 schrieb "Sven Van Caekenberghe" <sven@beta9.be>:
On 13 Feb 2012, at 16:32, Guido Stepken wrote:
Its quite difficult not to say *impossible* to run Pharo even for simple tasks within a small vserver account with 256 or 512 MB reserved or dynamically assigned memory space.
This is ridiculous: a current stock Pharo server image (i.e. non-stripped) compares favorably with any other dynamic language.
http://zn.stfx.eu/zn/index.html#livedemo
I am currently running 5 VM's on an AWS EC2 micro instance (613MB RAM, up to 2 ECU (1 ECU = the equivalent CPU capacity of a 1.0-1.2 GHz 2007 Opteron or 2007 Xeon processor)).
Setup can also be quite simple:
http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Core-HTTP-Server-OneCommandLine-Demo-td3702218.h...
Sven
On Feb 13, 2012, at 5:38 PM, Peter Hugosson-Miller wrote:
Hey Guido, I thought you said you were leaving us! Just too hard to stay away, eh? :-)
lol We are addictive. Like honey for bees :) Stef
-- Cheers, Peter
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote: Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O, leaving no load for Pharo at all, serving static webpages even.
Tnx 4 your funny comment!
Have fun, Guido Stepken
Am 13.02.2012 17:08 schrieb "Sven Van Caekenberghe" <sven@beta9.be>:
On 13 Feb 2012, at 16:32, Guido Stepken wrote:
Its quite difficult not to say *impossible* to run Pharo even for simple tasks within a small vserver account with 256 or 512 MB reserved or dynamically assigned memory space.
This is ridiculous: a current stock Pharo server image (i.e. non-stripped) compares favorably with any other dynamic language.
http://zn.stfx.eu/zn/index.html#livedemo
I am currently running 5 VM's on an AWS EC2 micro instance (613MB RAM, up to 2 ECU (1 ECU = the equivalent CPU capacity of a 1.0-1.2 GHz 2007 Opteron or 2007 Xeon processor)).
Setup can also be quite simple:
http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Core-HTTP-Server-OneCommandLine-Demo-td3702218.h...
Sven
On 13 Feb 2012, at 17:25, Guido Stepken wrote:
Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O, leaving no load for Pharo at all, serving static webpages even.
Of course I am not: Apache 2 mod_proxy doesn't do any caching at all, it is only load balancing, but to know that you have to be able to read. Furthermore, Apache serving static files is way faster than that, something most people know, you apparently not. And just for the record: I am comparing Pharo with other dynamic languages for dynamically generated content. Anyway, do you have anything useful to contribute ?
On 13 February 2012 17:53, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven@beta9.be> wrote:
On 13 Feb 2012, at 17:25, Guido Stepken wrote:
Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O, leaving no load for Pharo at all, serving static webpages even.
Of course I am not: Apache 2 mod_proxy doesn't do any caching at all, it is only load balancing, but to know that you have to be able to read.
Furthermore, Apache serving static files is way faster than that, something most people know, you apparently not.
And just for the record: I am comparing Pharo with other dynamic languages for dynamically generated content.
Anyway, do you have anything useful to contribute ?
Course, trolls always have something extra to say :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Am 13.02.2012 17:53 schrieb "Sven Van Caekenberghe" <sven@beta9.be>:
On 13 Feb 2012, at 17:25, Guido Stepken wrote:
Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O,
leaving no load for Pharo at all, serving static webpages even.
Of course I am not: Apache 2 mod_proxy doesn't do any caching at all, it
is only load balancing, but to know that you have to be able to read. Yes! http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/mod/mod_proxy.html Even dynamically growing cache memory. Tnx 4 your comments. When you put *real* and *direct* load on Pharo (no tricks, no apache, no nginx in front), and you can see, what i mean: Memory pumping, eating up vasts mounts of memory at even low load (use ab -n 10000 -c 1000) ... Ok, facts are unwanted here. Away again! :-) Happy hacking! Guido Stepken
Furthermore, Apache serving static files is way faster than that, something most people know, you apparently not.
And just for the record: I am comparing Pharo with other dynamic languages for dynamically generated content.
Anyway, do you have anything useful to contribute ?
On 13 February 2012 18:09, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 13.02.2012 17:53 schrieb "Sven Van Caekenberghe" <sven@beta9.be>:
On 13 Feb 2012, at 17:25, Guido Stepken wrote:
Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O, leaving no load for Pharo at all, serving static webpages even.
Of course I am not: Apache 2 mod_proxy doesn't do any caching at all, it is only load balancing, but to know that you have to be able to read.
Yes! http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/mod/mod_proxy.html
Even dynamically growing cache memory.
Tnx 4 your comments. When you put *real* and *direct* load on Pharo (no tricks, no apache, no nginx in front), and you can see, what i mean: Memory pumping, eating up vasts mounts of memory at even low load (use ab -n 10000 -c 1000) ...
How about *real* and *direct* load on a sport car? Ever tried to haul fuel cistern with it? How fast it goes? The answer to your issue is just one: use proper tools for solving your problems.
Ok, facts are unwanted here. Away again! :-)
Happy hacking!
Guido Stepken
Furthermore, Apache serving static files is way faster than that, something most people know, you apparently not.
And just for the record: I am comparing Pharo with other dynamic languages for dynamically generated content.
Anyway, do you have anything useful to contribute ?
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Am 13.02.2012 18:17 schrieb "Igor Stasenko" <siguctua <siguctua@gmail.com>@<siguctua@gmail.com> gmail.com <siguctua@gmail.com>>:
How about *real* and *direct* load on a sport car? Ever tried to haul fuel cistern with it? How fast it goes? The answer to your issue is just one: use proper tools for solving your problems.
Do the right things, make Pharo, Seaside *usable* Look at: http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such... Selecting notebooks by price, endurance, weight, with sliders. I could sell *hundreds* of those shops to customers, big companies, hosting inclusive for 20.000 each. Pharo/Seaside *is* the right tool if YOU WOULD DO THE RIGHT THINGS, not just bothering some class structure deep in Pharo. Pharo hangs even at *directly* serving static pages at low loads. I hoped to see significant speedups due to lack of any 3/4/5 tier middleware with being everything done within one VM. Database, delivery, ... I am still disappointed. Welcome in the *real world*. Doing academic brainfuck is not sufficient. So are your etats for developing Pharo, near ZERO. Start thinking like business men! Listen to that, what customers want! tnx 4 understanding, Guido Stepken
On 13 February 2012 18:59, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 13.02.2012 18:17 schrieb "Igor Stasenko" <siguctua@gmail.com>:
How about *real* and *direct* load on a sport car? Ever tried to haul fuel cistern with it? How fast it goes? The answer to your issue is just one: use proper tools for solving your problems.
Do the right things, make Pharo, Seaside *usable*
Seaside is separate project. It runs on multiple smalltalk dialects. Now if you think that something in Pharo makes it slow or unusable, feel free to identify and point out on problem, open issue, report bugs, contribute fixes.
Look at: http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...
Selecting notebooks by price, endurance, weight, with sliders. I could sell *hundreds* of those shops to customers, big companies, hosting inclusive for 20.000 each.
And? Clicking on slider on that site takes 5 seconds for page to refresh. Welcome to *real* world.
Pharo/Seaside *is* the right tool if YOU WOULD DO THE RIGHT THINGS, not just bothering some class structure deep in Pharo.
Pharo hangs even at *directly* serving static pages at low loads. I hoped to see significant speedups due to lack of any 3/4/5 tier middleware with being everything done within one VM. Database, delivery, ...
You lost me. VM is not Seaside. Not a database. Not a web server. And finally, not a notebook selling portal. VM is general-purpose virtual machine. And it will always lose to specialized software which were originally designed for serving web under high loads. So, again use right tools for your needs. And good luck with waiting till 'speedups' will magically happen while keeping trolling.
I am still disappointed. Welcome in the *real world*. Doing academic brainfuck is not sufficient. So are your etats for developing Pharo, near ZERO. Start thinking like business men! Listen to that, what customers want!
tnx 4 understanding, Guido Stepken
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Dear Guido
Do the right things, make Pharo, Seaside *usable*
Did you try with VisualWorks? I'm pretty sure that you can use it without paying a license. :)
Look at: http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...
Selecting notebooks by price, endurance, weight, with sliders. I could sell *hundreds* of those shops to customers, big companies, hosting inclusive for 20.000 each.
Are you doing such web site? With Seaside? With Pharo?
Pharo/Seaside *is* the right tool if YOU WOULD DO THE RIGHT THINGS, not just bothering some class structure deep in Pharo.
Pharo hangs even at *directly* serving static pages at low loads. I hoped to see significant speedups due to lack of any 3/4/5 tier middleware with being everything done within one VM. Database, delivery, â¦
Provide real code and examples.
I am still disappointed. Welcome in the *real world*. Doing academic brainfuck is not sufficient.
:) Who are you to know what we are really doing :)
So are your etats for developing Pharo, near ZERO. Start thinking like business men! Listen to that, what customers want!
I would be curious to see your "clients". Pharo is far from what we dream about but we are serious about it and we are concerned by business. Now your trolling is good because we are not an obscure community without a troll but we have one troll so this is good. Thanks. If you are positive and provide information that is not just bullshitting then we will consider to reply and consider your request else *plonk* Stef
Am 13.02.2012 20:25 schrieb "Stéphane Ducasse" <stephane.ducasse<stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> @ <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>inria.fr <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>>:
Dear Guido
Hi Stef!
Do the right things, make Pharo, Seaside *usable*
Did you try with VisualWorks? I'm pretty sure that you can use it without paying a license. :)
Look at: http://<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suche/liste.html>
www.cyberport.de<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> /<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> notebook<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> -und-<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> tablet<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> /<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> notebook<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> -<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> berater<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> /erweiterte-suche/<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> liste.html<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...>
Selecting notebooks by price, endurance, weight, with sliders. I could
sell *hundreds* of those shops to customers, big companies, hosting inclusive for 20.000 each.
Are you doing such web site? With Seaside? With Pharo?
Wie started off a project, a shop like this, with Seaside on Pharo, and we had to give up, when benchmarks came into consideration. You remember, some time ago, you and Marcus denied all my complaints: http://<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bocked-everything-Unusable-td3669616.html> forum.world.st<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> /<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> Hanging<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> connects<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> exhausted<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> resources<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> memory<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> leaks<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> bocked<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> everything<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> Unusable<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -td3669616.html<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> What has happened? I went on with pushing development of a similar shop (see cyberport.de) and finally lost several 10.000nds of â¬, because Pharo/Seaside *is* much too slow for any serious enterprise.
Pharo/Seaside *is* the right tool if YOU WOULD DO THE RIGHT THINGS, not just bothering some class structure deep in Pharo.
Pharo hangs even at *directly* serving static pages at low loads. I hoped to see significant speedups due to lack of any 3/4/5 tier middleware with being everything done within one VM. Database, delivery, â¦
Provide real code and examples.
My former complaints (see link above) have been ignored, calling me a Troll, and in the meantime this list *is full* of reports Pharo being unstable. You as being the *always optimistic* chief develloper and project manager your lazy attitude already has cost me a lot of â¬!!! More than your annual income! But ok, my personal risk!
I am still disappointed. Welcome in the *real world*. Doing academic brainfuck is not sufficient.
:) Who are you to know what we are really doing :)
I follow all changes, i know, hat you are aiming at! But - you've got the wrong priorities! Stability *always* comes first!!!
So are your etats for developing Pharo, near ZERO. Start thinking like business men! Listen to that, what customers want!
I would be curious to see your "clients".
I've got best connections to top 500 enterprise and deciders in germany. I would be pleased to present them a Seaside Shop, running on Pharo, PostgreSql or Magma behind, ready to run from within one image.
Pharo is far from what we dream about but we are serious about it and we are concerned by business.
Now your trolling is good because we are not an obscure community without a troll but we have one troll so this is good. Thanks.
Ok. If you are not able to get Pharo development managed under consideration of business needs, means: benchmarks and stress tests equiv to sunit tests, please step back as project leader!
If you are positive and provide information that is not just bullshitting then we will consider to reply and consider your request else *plonk*
I am positive, still, although you cost me much money. Happy hacking! Guido Stepken
Hi Guido,
What has happened? I went on with pushing development of a similar shop (see cyberport.de <http://cyberport.de>) and finally lost several 10.000nds of â¬, because Pharo/Seaside *is* much too slow for any serious enterprise.
Can you explain a bit more about your setup? You were trying to make a wesite *like* cyberport.de or did you make the *actual* cyberport.de? Where was the leak happening? What was slow? Connection to external DB? HTTP request handling? Have you benchmarked against a simple Zinc? How does it compare to a full stack Seaside? Where does things get slow? Does that happen with Squeak, VW or Gemstone? I use Pharo 1.3+Seaside 3 for http://wapict.be and it handles the load quite well. We do not get millions of hits but it runs well on a small VPS instance. We plan to grow the business and we need to handle much larger loads. Your benchmarks interest me, can you tell me more about your complete setup? How did you lost thousands of euros? Do not tell me that you've spent months in development to realise later that Pharo did not suit your need... Thanks, Francois -- http://tulipemoutarde.be CA: +1 778 558 3225 BE: +32 65 709 131
Hi guido If it helps to insult please do this is free and cheap. You did not even reply to a basic one: how VW compares? None of your past emails got any verifiable information. Too bad. Sven company is exactly using pharo as server, so this contradicts a bit your points but the key difference is that sven shows it to us. Now without any real data and just smoke facts I will not consider your emails anymore. Good luck. Stef
Am 13.02.2012 20:25 schrieb "Stéphane Ducasse" <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>:
Dear Guido
Hi Stef!
Do the right things, make Pharo, Seaside *usable*
Did you try with VisualWorks? I'm pretty sure that you can use it without paying a license. :)
Look at: http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...
Selecting notebooks by price, endurance, weight, with sliders. I could sell *hundreds* of those shops to customers, big companies, hosting inclusive for 20.000 each.
Are you doing such web site? With Seaside? With Pharo?
Wie started off a project, a shop like this, with Seaside on Pharo, and we had to give up, when benchmarks came into consideration.
You remember, some time ago, you and Marcus denied all my complaints:
http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...
What has happened? I went on with pushing development of a similar shop (see cyberport.de) and finally lost several 10.000nds of â¬, because Pharo/Seaside *is* much too slow for any serious enterprise.
Pharo/Seaside *is* the right tool if YOU WOULD DO THE RIGHT THINGS, not just bothering some class structure deep in Pharo.
Pharo hangs even at *directly* serving static pages at low loads. I hoped to see significant speedups due to lack of any 3/4/5 tier middleware with being everything done within one VM. Database, delivery, â¦
Provide real code and examples.
My former complaints (see link above) have been ignored, calling me a Troll, and in the meantime this list *is full* of reports Pharo being unstable.
You as being the *always optimistic* chief develloper and project manager your lazy attitude already has cost me a lot of â¬!!! More than your annual income!
But ok, my personal risk!
I am still disappointed. Welcome in the *real world*. Doing academic brainfuck is not sufficient.
:) Who are you to know what we are really doing :)
I follow all changes, i know, hat you are aiming at! But - you've got the wrong priorities!
Stability *always* comes first!!!
So are your etats for developing Pharo, near ZERO. Start thinking like business men! Listen to that, what customers want!
I would be curious to see your "clients".
I've got best connections to top 500 enterprise and deciders in germany. I would be pleased to present them a Seaside Shop, running on Pharo, PostgreSql or Magma behind, ready to run from within one image.
Pharo is far from what we dream about but we are serious about it and we are concerned by business.
Now your trolling is good because we are not an obscure community without a troll but we have one troll so this is good. Thanks.
Ok. If you are not able to get Pharo development managed under consideration of business needs, means: benchmarks and stress tests equiv to sunit tests, please step back as project leader!
If you are positive and provide information that is not just bullshitting then we will consider to reply and consider your request else *plonk*
I am positive, still, although you cost me much money.
Happy hacking!
Guido Stepken
Well... this is an example of what the "thread" was about at the beginning... that is, the lack of knowledge on software development... I you have known a little bit about architecture, multi-threading and vm implementation, you would quickly realize that pharo will not scale as a server. Squeak (where pharo comes from) was not design/implemented to be used as a server (and please, don not take this bad, I don't want to be unworthy with Pharo because it is changing and getting better with every realease) So, if you want to do a "serious enterprise" application, you should have used and architecture prepare for that such as GemStone (GLASS in this case)... it is a pity you lost so much money due to you "lack" of knowledge. Bye, Hernan On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 11:22 PM, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com>wrote:
Am 13.02.2012 20:25 schrieb "Stéphane Ducasse" <stephane.ducasse<stephane.ducasse@inria.fr> @ <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>inria.fr <stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>>:
Dear Guido
Hi Stef!
Do the right things, make Pharo, Seaside *usable*
Did you try with VisualWorks? I'm pretty sure that you can use it without paying a license. :)
Look at: http://<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-suche/liste.html>
www.cyberport.de<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> /<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> notebook<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> -und-<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> tablet<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> /<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> notebook<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> -<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> berater<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> /erweiterte-suche/<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...> liste.html<http://www.cyberport.de/notebook-und-tablet/notebook-berater/erweiterte-such...>
Selecting notebooks by price, endurance, weight, with sliders. I could
sell *hundreds* of those shops to customers, big companies, hosting inclusive for 20.000 each.
Are you doing such web site? With Seaside? With Pharo?
Wie started off a project, a shop like this, with Seaside on Pharo, and we had to give up, when benchmarks came into consideration.
You remember, some time ago, you and Marcus denied all my complaints:
http://<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bocked-everything-Unusable-td3669616.html> forum.world.st<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> /<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> Hanging<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> connects<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> exhausted<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> resources<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> memory<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> leaks<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> bocked<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> everything<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> Unusable<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...> -td3669616.html<http://forum.world.st/Hanging-connects-exhausted-resources-memory-leaks-bock...>
What has happened? I went on with pushing development of a similar shop (see cyberport.de) and finally lost several 10.000nds of â¬, because Pharo/Seaside *is* much too slow for any serious enterprise.
Pharo/Seaside *is* the right tool if YOU WOULD DO THE RIGHT THINGS, not just bothering some class structure deep in Pharo.
Pharo hangs even at *directly* serving static pages at low loads. I hoped to see significant speedups due to lack of any 3/4/5 tier middleware with being everything done within one VM. Database, delivery, â¦
Provide real code and examples.
My former complaints (see link above) have been ignored, calling me a Troll, and in the meantime this list *is full* of reports Pharo being unstable.
You as being the *always optimistic* chief develloper and project manager your lazy attitude already has cost me a lot of â¬!!! More than your annual income!
But ok, my personal risk!
I am still disappointed. Welcome in the *real world*. Doing academic brainfuck is not sufficient.
:) Who are you to know what we are really doing :)
I follow all changes, i know, hat you are aiming at! But - you've got the wrong priorities!
Stability *always* comes first!!!
So are your etats for developing Pharo, near ZERO. Start thinking like business men! Listen to that, what customers want!
I would be curious to see your "clients".
I've got best connections to top 500 enterprise and deciders in germany. I would be pleased to present them a Seaside Shop, running on Pharo, PostgreSql or Magma behind, ready to run from within one image.
Pharo is far from what we dream about but we are serious about it and we are concerned by business.
Now your trolling is good because we are not an obscure community without a troll but we have one troll so this is good. Thanks.
Ok. If you are not able to get Pharo development managed under consideration of business needs, means: benchmarks and stress tests equiv to sunit tests, please step back as project leader!
If you are positive and provide information that is not just bullshitting then we will consider to reply and consider your request else *plonk*
I am positive, still, although you cost me much money.
Happy hacking!
Guido Stepken
-- *Hernán Wilkinson Agile Software Development, Teaching & Coaching Mobile: +54 - 911 - 4470 - 7207 email: hernan.wilkinson@10Pines.com site: http://www.10Pines.com <http://www.10pines.com/>* Address: Paraguay 523, Floor 7 N, Buenos Aires, Argentina
On 14 February 2012 15:07, Hernan Wilkinson <hernan.wilkinson@10pines.com> wrote:
Well... this is an example of what the "thread" was about at the beginning... that is, the lack of knowledge on software development... I you have known a little bit about architecture, multi-threading and vm implementation, you would quickly realize that pharo will not scale as a server. Squeak (where pharo comes from) was not design/implemented to be used as a server (and please, don not take this bad, I don't want to be unworthy with Pharo because it is changing and getting better with every realease)
There's no reason to take it bad, because you stating the truth.
So, if you want to do a "serious enterprise" application, you should have used and architecture prepare for that such as GemStone (GLASS in this case)... it is a pity you lost so much money due to you "lack" of knowledge.
People who taking it serious also first discover the area of possibility, which implies talking to people and asking questions. I never seen from Guido questions like "does it scales if i run it standalone etc". And that means that he's not any serious with his harsh statements, just trolling. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Am 14.02.2012 16:57, schrieb Igor Stasenko:
On 14 February 2012 15:07, Hernan Wilkinson <hernan.wilkinson@10pines.com> wrote:
Well... this is an example of what the "thread" was about at the beginning... that is, the lack of knowledge on software development... I you have known a little bit about architecture, multi-threading and vm implementation, you would quickly realize that pharo will not scale as a server. Squeak (where pharo comes from) was not design/implemented to be used as a server (and please, don not take this bad, I don't want to be unworthy with Pharo because it is changing and getting better with every realease)
There's no reason to take it bad, because you stating the truth.
So, if you want to do a "serious enterprise" application, you should have used and architecture prepare for that such as GemStone (GLASS in this case)... it is a pity you lost so much money due to you "lack" of knowledge.
People who taking it serious also first discover the area of possibility, which implies talking to people and asking questions.
I never seen from Guido questions like "does it scales if i run it standalone etc". And that means that he's not any serious with his harsh statements, just trolling.
Lookup Google "Pharo hanging" ... very few companies are really using Pharo, but i am not the only one reporting this. Tnx for the "troll". Have fun hacking, Guido Stepken
On 14 February 2012 17:07, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 14.02.2012 16:57, schrieb Igor Stasenko:
On 14 February 2012 15:07, Hernan Wilkinson <hernan.wilkinson@10pines.com> Â wrote:
Well... this is an example of what the "thread" was about at the beginning... that is, the lack of knowledge on software development... I you have known a little bit about architecture, multi-threading and vm implementation, you would quickly realize that pharo will not scale as a server. Squeak (where pharo comes from) was not design/implemented to be used as a server (and please, don not take this bad, I don't want to be unworthy with Pharo because it is changing and getting better with every realease)
There's no reason to take it bad, because you stating the truth.
So, if you want to do a "serious enterprise" application, you should have used and architecture prepare for that such as GemStone (GLASS in this case)... it is a pity you lost so much money due to you "lack" of knowledge.
People who taking it serious also first discover the area of possibility, which implies talking to people and asking questions.
I never seen from Guido questions like "does it scales if i run it standalone etc". And that means that he's not any serious with his harsh statements, just trolling.
Lookup Google "Pharo hanging" ... very few companies are really using Pharo, but i am not the only one reporting this.
Look for "rails hanging" - ~ 11 million hits Look for "C# hanging" , java hanging etc now if this is the only criteria, on which you basing your choice, then i feel sorry for you, because you cannot use any software made in this world. so, have fun hacking.
Tnx for the "troll".
Have fun hacking, Guido Stepken
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Hi Igor! This is not the point. Modern architectures have different goals in mind. Projected on Pharo, it means that: 1. Make Pharo nonblocking. Remove any locking, completely. 2. Make Pharo fast. Use "in situ algorithms", avoid any copying of data, objects, whatever. 3. Make Pharo "overload proof". Install selfprotecting algorithms. 4. Read Knuth, use advanced algothims. Modern architectures dont't need to GC (or rarely). "Objects not created do not to be garbage collected!" 5. Make any GC concurrent for no longer intererrupting the VM. 6. Make Pharo multithreaded. Even my mobile has 2 processors, ASUS prime tablet even has 5! 7. Drop COGVM. LVCC is able to post - jit, callback problem solved, MP-ready, e.t.c. 8. UNIT Testing is not enough. Continuous benchmarking and stress/overload tests belong to *every* serious software development process. 9. You develop on MacOS. Where in the world are webhosters using MacOS? Make it work stable on FreeBSD, Linux, Windows Server 2008 ... 10. Use Moose...whatever to detect possible deadlocks. This belongs to modern software development. 11. Offer a collaboration tool on Pharo, where Smalltalk hobbyists may help you refactoring ... a todo list .. 12. Same for translations. 13. Long time ago i posted a bug: "Wrong development process". Stef deleted my entry without understanding. tnx 4 understanding, Guido Stepken 2012/2/14 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>
On 14 February 2012 17:07, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Am 14.02.2012 16:57, schrieb Igor Stasenko:
On 14 February 2012 15:07, Hernan Wilkinson <hernan.wilkinson@10pines.com> wrote:
Well... this is an example of what the "thread" was about at the beginning... that is, the lack of knowledge on software development...
I
you have known a little bit about architecture, multi-threading and vm implementation, you would quickly realize that pharo will not scale as a server. Squeak (where pharo comes from) was not design/implemented to be used as a server (and please, don not take this bad, I don't want to be unworthy with Pharo because it is changing and getting better with every realease)
There's no reason to take it bad, because you stating the truth.
So, if you want to do a "serious enterprise" application, you should have used and architecture prepare for that such as GemStone (GLASS in this case)... it is a pity you lost so much money due to you "lack" of knowledge.
People who taking it serious also first discover the area of possibility, which implies talking to people and asking questions.
I never seen from Guido questions like "does it scales if i run it standalone etc". And that means that he's not any serious with his harsh statements, just trolling.
Lookup Google "Pharo hanging" ... very few companies are really using Pharo, but i am not the only one reporting this.
Look for "rails hanging" - ~ 11 million hits Look for "C# hanging" , java hanging etc
now if this is the only criteria, on which you basing your choice, then i feel sorry for you, because you cannot use any software made in this world.
so, have fun hacking.
Tnx for the "troll".
Have fun hacking, Guido Stepken
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
On 14 February 2012 18:17, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Hi Igor!
This is not the point. Modern architectures have different goals in mind. Projected on Pharo, it means that:
1. Make Pharo nonblocking. Remove any locking, completely. 2. Make Pharo fast. Use "in situ algorithms", avoid any copying of data, objects, whatever. 3. Make Pharo "overload proof". Install selfprotecting algorithms. 4. Read Knuth, use advanced algothims. Modern architectures dont't need to GC (or rarely). "Objects not created do not to be garbage collected!" 5. Make any GC concurrent for no longer intererrupting the VM. 6. Make Pharo multithreaded. Even my mobile has 2 processors, ASUS prime tablet even has 5! 7. Drop COGVM. LVCC is able to post - jit, callback problem solved, MP-ready, e.t.c. 8. UNIT Testing is not enough. Continuous benchmarking and stress/overload tests belong to *every* serious software development process. 9. You develop on MacOS. Where in the world are webhosters using MacOS? Make it work stable on FreeBSD, Linux, Windows Server 2008 ... 10. Use Moose...whatever to detect possible deadlocks. This belongs to modern software development. 11. Offer a collaboration tool on Pharo, where Smalltalk hobbyists may help you refactoring ... a todo list .. 12. Same for translations. 13. Long time ago i posted a bug: "Wrong development process". Stef deleted my entry without understanding.
Thanks. It was for a big revelation for me. Now i know what to do. :) Now seriously, do you really think that people here are not considered all of things you listed, and not trying to improve things in those directions? Also, do you have any idea how many man-hours it may require to implement all items in your list? And even if you can estimate it, do you have any idea where to find such massive amount of human resource for such activities? And most of all, are those people will work for free, based on their enthusiasm, or well paid? Because if you pay to people, then you having full right to demand things to be done right and in right term. But if you don't, then just please shut up and stop bashing people who doing everything for free, so you can use it paying NOTHING. So, next time you will say that you lost a bunch of money because of Pharo, i'd like to also see an attached figures the amount of money you invested into Pharo project.
tnx 4 understanding, Guido Stepken
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
2012/2/14 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>
Now seriously, do you really think that people here are not considered all of things you listed, and not trying to improve things in those directions?
Don't see benchmarks anywhere on Pharo Homepage, even the 1.3 Image was not up to date for long time. Nobody really cared. Stef as project leader missed to set up "daily todo list", list of dutys for the developers, payed or unpayed, doesn't play any role! Choosing the *right* development process decides over the quality an speed of a product, free or unfree.
Also, do you have any idea how many man-hours it may require to implement all items in your list?
Yes, 4-5 manyears? So, why reinventing the wheel, like with COGVM? LLVM ist much better supported by big, big, commercial companies.
And even if you can estimate it, do you have any idea where to find such massive amount of human resource for such activities?
I wish, you would lean the profession of fundraising for Pharo. Set up an auction homepage, file out code to be refactored, or to be programmed, with call for bids, name the price, collect money. And you will see, there are thousands of Smalltalkers outside being a still reserve ... solving Pharo problems for a few bucks, mostly located in Asia, Russia, India. In India a Smalltalk developer is about 600$/Month. Fully qualified.
And most of all, are those people will work for free, based on their enthusiasm, or well paid?
See above, wrong development process.
Because if you pay to people, then you having full right to demand things to be done right and in right term. But if you don't, then just please shut up and stop bashing people who doing everything for free, so you can use it paying NOTHING.
I am not bashing. You all don't understand how to set up successful projects.
So, next time you will say that you lost a bunch of money because of Pharo, i'd like to also see an attached figures the amount of money you invested into Pharo project.
Where is the list of sponsors for your Pharo projekt on the homepage? Private, Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum? The topten list of committers? Have fun, Guido Stepken
On 14 February 2012 19:36, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
2012/2/14 Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com>
Now seriously, do you really think that people here are not considered all of things you listed, and not trying to improve things in those directions?
Don't see benchmarks anywhere on Pharo Homepage, even the 1.3 Image was not up to date for long time. Nobody really cared.
Stef as project leader missed to set up "daily todo list", list of dutys for the developers, payed or unpayed, doesn't play any role!
Choosing the *right* development process decides over the quality an speed of a product, free or unfree.
Also, do you have any idea how many man-hours it may require to implement all items in your list?
Yes, 4-5 manyears? So, why reinventing the wheel, like with COGVM? LLVM ist much better supported by big, big, commercial companies.
And even if you can estimate it, do you have any idea where to find such massive amount of human resource for such activities?
I wish, you would lean the profession of fundraising for Pharo. Set up an auction homepage, file out code to be refactored, or to be programmed, with call for bids, name the price, collect money. And you will see, there are thousands of Smalltalkers outside being a still reserve ... solving Pharo problems for a few bucks, mostly located in Asia, Russia, India.
In India a Smalltalk developer is about 600$/Month. Fully qualified.
And most of all, are those people will work for free, based on their enthusiasm, or well paid?
See above, wrong development process.
Because if you pay to people, then you having full right to demand things to be done right and in right term. But if you don't, then just please shut up and stop bashing people who doing everything for free, so you can use it paying NOTHING.
I am not bashing. You all don't understand how to set up successful projects.
Reading your comments, i now have only single question left: if you know things so well, why you just don't organize own project, set things up as you know right, make auctions/hire indians/martians/whatever is best for you to meet the objectives you have in mind? Why relying on stupid people who don't want to listen and seemingly don't understand what/how things should run, when you can do it by yourself? Like the idea? Now get lost and start making it real.
So, next time you will say that you lost a bunch of money because of Pharo, i'd like to also see an attached figures the amount of money you invested into Pharo project.
Where is the list of sponsors for your Pharo projekt on the homepage? Private, Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum? The topten list of committers?
Have fun, Guido Stepken
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Get the development process developed!
Am 14.02.2012 um 20:01 schrieb Guido Stepken:
Get the development process developed!
Guido, you seem to have interest in Pharo, even if it doesn't fit your needs today. You also seem to have "the right" connections and money. What about turning this into something positive for you, your customers and the whole community? Make a list of things you want to have. Make the things more concrete than in your last posts. An wave with a bundle of money. You will maybe raise the interest of some of the brilliant guys here and can convince them to do what you want. From what you wrote within this thread I would bet that you will be able to offer more than $100,000 - a very convincing argument and maybe enough to get what you want from Pharo! Regards, Andreas
Over the past three years, I have learnt that the one biggest skill all of us have to develop is to see and gain from the positive side of everything and everyone. The quick poring through this chain, makes me feel there is lot we can gain from the most blunt critics, unjust as it might feel. The most important is to be able to make even a fiercest critic welcome to the community. At the core, the whole point that is being vociferously pushed for is the need to be "business" oriented, which I am sure Guido too appreciates is not a small step and that no two people necessarily agree on a perfectly aligned path to reach there. Like Steve led Apple to its heights, we should wish Guido to lead his endeavor to success, even if it has to be any other technology stack and keep contributing more concrete facts for Pharo to take the lead from. To agree to disagree, but push forward to get Pharo over to its ultimate goal is eventually in the hands of the Pharo Community and each has his own role to play ranging from the eternal optimist and the ones not so... Understanding the facts is also important beyond technical content of a programming platform for enterprise: * Enterprise activity will gravitate to cost centers.. be it manufacturing or IT * No Phd's will be employed to do programming task in any such center beyond probably a top 1-3% of the tech staff, but they do from their places contribute a good deal.. * Enterprise software usage is not dictated as much by performance and minutae but by perception at large, availability of skilled resource in large easy to hire numbers (Java in Stanford is great news for corporates..!) * Enterprise will throw hardware, lower cost dev to compensate for anything that makes it more flexible and manageable and eventually guarantees in some manner a longer term returns on investment * Enterprise managers want to bank on a face/ entity they can lay the blame on for issues, without being questioned why they chose X over Y. Also get resolution for critical issues within some timeframe.. even upto a year at times from MS, Sun , Oracle or IBM.. Following the herd, howsoever right or wrong it is helps in that direction Lots to say.. but the brief note is this is a huge endeavor and what is correct and right cannot be prescribed by one person in entirety. We all do the best and contribute directly into the framework viz: If Guido can get a version of Pharo fast and enterprise ready.. great all the better.. He can contribute his code/ works which without bias passes muster.. great. We all win. No cathedral has been built in a year.. but appreciate the fact that we are on a path well forked. Hands are always needed...! On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 1:16 AM, Andreas Wacknitz <a.wacknitz@gmx.de> wrote:
Am 14.02.2012 um 20:01 schrieb Guido Stepken:
Get the development process developed!
Guido, you seem to have interest in Pharo, even if it doesn't fit your needs today. You also seem to have "the right" connections and money. What about turning this into something positive for you, your customers and the whole community? Make a list of things you want to have. Make the things more concrete than in your last posts. An wave with a bundle of money. You will maybe raise the interest of some of the brilliant guys here and can convince them to do what you want. From what you wrote within this thread I would bet that you will be able to offer more than $100,000 - a very convincing argument and maybe enough to get what you want from Pharo!
Regards, Andreas
The development process of Pharo needs to be developed! There *are* hundreds of Smalltalkers outside, *unused resources*, a few dozen of enterprises paying *millions* of dollars each year on licensing cost for VS, VA, GEMSTONE, *unused money for Pharo development* Get the development process correct, means *business oriented*!!! And please stop to see who did *contribute* to Pharo! If the process ist well designed, there will be lots of contributors as well as enough money to hire hundreds of smalltalk professionals. tnx 4 understanding, Guido Stepken
Am 2012-02-14 um 21:25 schrieb Guido Stepken:
The development process of Pharo needs to be developed!
There *are* hundreds of Smalltalkers outside, *unused resources*, a few dozen of enterprises paying *millions* of dollars each year on licensing cost for VS, VA, GEMSTONE, *unused money for Pharo development*
Get the development process correct, means *business oriented*!!!
And please stop to see who did *contribute* to Pharo! If the process ist well designed, there will be lots of contributors as well as enough money to hire hundreds of smalltalk professionals.
tnx 4 understanding, Guido Stepken
d o.O b
I must correct some notions.. the time I hope is right for that... "In India a Smalltalk developer is about 600$/Month. Fully qualified." I am sorry to point out.. if you pay in peanuts, you will attract monkeys..!... It costs upwards of 2500$ / mo now..! Just the remuneration add the office costs and other bits to it.. it is more like 5000$ and more.. And at that cost you are not getting anyone with top notch skills, you will have to be lucky to get one in Smalltalk. Java, Ruby, Python , C++ , Oracle, DB2 .. yes you can at probably half as much too..! There is an old paradigm of training freshers in.. but generally their skills are almost non-existent in terms of contributing effectively to do refactoring at scales required for Pharo.. testing yes, examples yes.. tutorials yes.. but framework , understanding internals..in depth not so much But this is more to do with the fact Smalltalk today in India, attracts not one from the premium segment of students from any of the top univ but only the filtered not really fitting into anything else types. We can change that drastically if we can move in Pharo into all the Universities and academics but that is one hell of red tape to jump over. Get a Thoughtworks, Trilogic , Google , Facebook in India to adopt Pharo and see the upswing in the next 3 years.. but costs.. I would say compare to the West..
Yes, 4-5 manyears? So, why reinventing the wheel, like with COGVM? LLVM ist much better supported by big, big, commercial companies.
Yes, LLVM has a great track-record of easing the development of dynamic languages. http://qinsb.blogspot.com/2011/03/unladen-swallow-retrospective.html
On 13 Feb 2012, at 18:09, Guido Stepken wrote:
Yes! http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/mod/mod_proxy.html
Even dynamically growing cache memory.
No! This page http://zn.stfx.eu/zn/index.html#livedemo clearly refers/links to http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/mod_proxy_balancer.html which refers/links to http://httpd.apache.org/docs/current/mod/mod_proxy.html Where it is clearly stated that mod_cache is needed to add caching functionality (Apache 1.3 is different, old).
Tnx 4 your comments. When you put *real* and *direct* load on Pharo (no tricks, no apache, no nginx in front), and you can see, what i mean: Memory pumping, eating up vasts mounts of memory at even low load (use ab -n 10000 -c 1000) â¦
I would be very surprised to learn that you have written and/or operated a dynamic website that was hit like that !
Ok, facts are unwanted here. Away again! :-)
Bye.
Caching now has moved into Apache core. Is still there. Am 13.02.2012 18:51 schrieb "Sven Van Caekenberghe" <sven@beta9.be>:
On 13 Feb 2012, at 18:09, Guido Stepken wrote:
Yes! http://httpd.apache.org/docs/1.3/mod/mod_proxy.html
Even dynamically growing cache memory.
No!
This page
http://zn.stfx.eu/zn/index.html#livedemo
clearly refers/links to
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/mod_proxy_balancer.html
which refers/links to
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/current/mod/mod_proxy.html
Where it is clearly stated that mod_cache is needed to add caching functionality (Apache 1.3 is different, old).
Tnx 4 your comments. When you put *real* and *direct* load on Pharo (no tricks, no apache, no nginx in front), and you can see, what i mean: Memory pumping, eating up vasts mounts of memory at even low load (use ab -n 10000 -c 1000) â¦
I would be very surprised to learn that you have written and/or operated a dynamic website that was hit like that !
Ok, facts are unwanted here. Away again! :-)
Bye.
On 13 Feb 2012, at 19:09, Guido Stepken wrote:
Caching now has moved into Apache core. Is still there.
Facts ?? There is no such thing, you have to enable it manually: http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/caching.html
Amazon Cloud even has widely installed "memcached", hat works also as httpd cache, preventing any Apache webserver and indirect Pharo Webserver from "seeing" any http/get request. So, i am NOT surprised, that any of those Pharoers doesn't want me here ... Pharo *is* dogsloooooow, Seaside nearly *unusable*. Unusable for any serious business application, unforseeable memory pumping effects, expecially in vservers with limited or even dynamically assigned memory. I will open Benchmarks later ... happy hacking! best, Guido Stepken Am 13.02.2012 17:53 schrieb "Sven Van Caekenberghe" <sven@beta9.be>:
On 13 Feb 2012, at 17:25, Guido Stepken wrote:
Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O, leaving no load for Pharo at all, serving static webpages even.
Of course I am not: Apache 2 mod_proxy doesn't do any caching at all, it is only load balancing, but to know that you have to be able to read.
Furthermore, Apache serving static files is way faster than that, something most people know, you apparently not.
And just for the record: I am comparing Pharo with other dynamic languages for dynamically generated content.
Anyway, do you have anything useful to contribute ?
On 14 Feb 2012, at 01:57, Guido Stepken wrote:
Amazon Cloud even has widely installed "memcached", hat works also as httpd cache, preventing any Apache webserver and indirect Pharo Webserver from "seeing" any http/get request.
So, i am NOT surprised, that any of those Pharoers doesn't want me here ... Pharo *is* dogsloooooow, Seaside nearly *unusable*. Unusable for any serious business application, unforseeable memory pumping effects, expecially in vservers with limited or even dynamically assigned memory.
I will open Benchmarks later ...
While you are at it, add PHP and Ruby into your benchmarks. You will see that the memory consumption of PHP is just outrageous. And the speed of Ruby is legendary... to humor me, please use Ruby 1.8 and compare it to 1.9. Look at what people write about production setups for these languages. Your approach just doesn't scale. The bottom line is, the quality of the language implementation for real-world applications just does not matter at all. People developed the right tools for the job... Regards Stefan -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525
On 14 Feb 2012, at 09:41, Stefan Marr wrote:
While you are at it, add PHP and Ruby into your benchmarks. You will see that the memory consumption of PHP is just outrageous. And the speed of Ruby is legendary... to humor me, please use Ruby 1.8 and compare it to 1.9.
Look at what people write about production setups for these languages. Your approach just doesn't scale. The bottom line is, the quality of the language implementation for real-world applications just does not matter at all. People developed the right tools for the job...
Stefan, you are absolutely 100% right: Ruby, Python, PHP, Perl, JavaScript are successful and scale well even though they often have less efficient runtimes than Smalltalk. Choosing a language in which you are productive is a better strategy. Sven
On 14 February 2012 01:57, Guido Stepken <gstepken@googlemail.com> wrote:
Amazon Cloud even has widely installed "memcached", hat works also as httpd cache, preventing any Apache webserver and indirect Pharo Webserver from "seeing" any http/get request.
So, i am NOT surprised, that any of those Pharoers doesn't want me here ... Pharo *is* dogsloooooow, Seaside nearly *unusable*. Unusable for any serious business application, unforseeable memory pumping effects, expecially in vservers with limited or even dynamically assigned memory.
So don't use it. Pharo is open-source project. This means that people, who contributing to it, is its customers, and solving own problems, not yours and not some virtual-customer's problems. Now if this project doesn't solves your problem, it doesn't means that this cannot be changed of that there someone who not willing to change or doing everything to prevent that. You just approach with wrong perspective. And your sentence about losing lots of money because you put bet on Pharo looks just silly. You were not participating, not reporting any problems, you basically not exist. Now once in a year you appear and repeat same story: - i losing customers/money blah blah because Pharo is dog slow... good luck next year.
I will open Benchmarks later ...
happy hacking!
best, Guido Stepken
Am 13.02.2012 17:53 schrieb "Sven Van Caekenberghe" <sven@beta9.be>:
On 13 Feb 2012, at 17:25, Guido Stepken wrote:
Hahaha! You are running Apache Server in Front, caching all I/O, leaving no load for Pharo at all, serving static webpages even.
Of course I am not: Apache 2 mod_proxy doesn't do any caching at all, it is only load balancing, but to know that you have to be able to read.
Furthermore, Apache serving static files is way faster than that, something most people know, you apparently not.
And just for the record: I am comparing Pharo with other dynamic languages for dynamically generated content.
Anyway, do you have anything useful to contribute ?
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Ahh, I am so upset with this thread. It's not the content that upsets me, but the fact that my pointing out that Pharo has a super-linear evolution went unnoticed due to all the trolling activity. So, let me mention it again "One should not presume much about Pharo because its evolution super-linear, and we all know how poor we are at estimating such super-linear models." :) Cheers, Doru
On 14 February 2012 12:59, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Ahh, I am so upset with this thread.
It's not the content that upsets me, but the fact that my pointing out that Pharo has a super-linear evolution went unnoticed due to all the trolling activity.
So, let me mention it again "One should not presume much about Pharo because its evolution super-linear, and we all know how poor we are at estimating such super-linear models."
:)
Why you think it didn't noticed? I even spent time learning what is 'super-linear' means. :) You're right that if taking a single individual, and his contribution to Pharo , it is of course always linear. But if you take a sum of those contributions by whole community, then you can easily see that the rate of improvement in different (or same) area can easily surpass the linear speed. -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
Ah, thanks. I feel better now :) Doru On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Igor Stasenko <siguctua@gmail.com> wrote:
On 14 February 2012 12:59, Tudor Girba <tudor@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
Ahh, I am so upset with this thread.
It's not the content that upsets me, but the fact that my pointing out that Pharo has a super-linear evolution went unnoticed due to all the trolling activity.
So, let me mention it again "One should not presume much about Pharo because its evolution super-linear, and we all know how poor we are at estimating such super-linear models."
:)
Why you think it didn't noticed? I even spent time learning what is 'super-linear' means. Â :)
You're right that if taking a single individual, and his contribution to Pharo , it is of course always linear. But if you take a sum of those contributions by whole community, then you can easily see that the rate of improvement in different (or same) area can easily surpass the linear speed.
-- Best regards, Igor Stasenko.
-- www.tudorgirba.com "Every thing has its own flow"
Hi doru can you explain this sentence and implications for single minded people :) Stef
One should not presume much about Pharo because its evolution super-linear, and we all know how poor we are at estimating such super-linear models
participants (17)
-
Alain Fischer -
Andreas Wacknitz -
Francois Stephany -
Guido Stepken -
Hernan Wilkinson -
Igor Stasenko -
Marcus Denker -
Michael Haupt -
Nick Ager -
Peter Hugosson-Miller -
S Krish -
Stefan Marr -
Stéphane Ducasse -
Sven Van Caekenberghe -
Tobias Pape -
Toon Verwaest -
Tudor Girba