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Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] [OT] (slightly) What makes other dialects "enjoyable" for you? (WAS: difference between double dispatch...)

by john pfersich

Well, I run a consulting firm and if I could make money from developing software on Pharo, Iâd be willing to join the Consortium as a Gold member. Iâd love to develop using Smalltalk. I do proof of concepts in Smalltalk frequently and deploy in other languages. I would think that a company using Smalltalk would be willing to pay thousands or ten thousands for long term support, depending on the application. I mean one seat of Jetbrainsâ development tools is $600-700 a year, and enterprise development isnât cheap. A reasonable sized MongoDB Atlas database cluster is, according to the website, somewhere in the area of $2500-3000 a month. The average job I do saves the company I work for hundreds of thousands of dollars. I was doing jobs 30 years ago that weâre doing that. Maybe itâs more like millions. /*âââââââââââââââââ-*/ Sent from my iPhone https://boincstats.com/signature/-1/user/51616339056/sig.png See https://objectnets.net and https://objectnets.org > On Apr 12, 2019, at 01:25, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > So you earn money with pharo? Isnât that a bit risky if you donât have someone to ask if you have a critical problem? That is what you get when you pay into the consortium. Is it that you demand that from the mailing list and the people that work in their free time? > > Norbert > >> Am 12.04.2019 um 03:06 schrieb john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com>: >> >> +1 on the long term support idea. Changing an application every year to support a new version of Pharo is a nonstarter for most of my clients. >> >> /*âââââââââââââââââ-*/ >> Sent from my iPhone >> https://boincstats.com/signature/-1/user/51616339056/sig.png >> See https://objectnets.net and https://objectnets.org >> >>> On Apr 11, 2019, at 06:33, "jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de" <jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> wrote: >>> >>> +1 on the long term support and stability topic. >> > >

April 13, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] [OT] (slightly) What makes other dialects "enjoyable" for you? (WAS: difference between double dispatch...)

by Esteban Lorenzano

In the pharo board we have discussed several times the LTS thingy. As others said, problem with this is it costs time, and time is money (that we do not have for the moment). It is certainly something in our horizon, but for now is just not possible. I donât know which kind of applications are in play here, but I find hard to believe the effort of migrating from Pharo 6 to Pharo 7 (to put an example) is so big since I migrated all my projects in no-time. Of course migrating from Pharo 2 to Pharo 7 will take more effort than just catch up the last version. But to improve migration recently we introduce auto rewrite tools. This works fine up to a point. Stability in other termsâ¦ what does it means? Stability in the API? Stability in the execution? While the 2nd is a must, the 1st is complicated because you have to have a compromise with the need of evolution. Nevertheless, I would say that the core of Pharo is very stable and what is not so much is the tooling. This is because we are still looking for the right tooling (and because needs change, 10 years ago IoT was not a thing nor we should be prepared to it, and now is âthe new kid in the blockâ and we need to answer to it. Lot of other things accumulate what this days is called âtechnical debtâ and we need to answer to that. That breaks âstabilityâ, but breaks it in a positive way. Soâ¦ I have my doubts about what stability means. If it means no change. It is a no go (but users can always stick with older versions, is not that we are hiding them). If it means eternal backward compatibility. It is too expensive (and also an eventual stagnation) So we choose to be âstable in our goalsâ : to provide each version an improved version of Pharo that users can enjoy (that the origin of this thread that has been suddenly highjacked for just one of the topics), while trying to be as effortless as possible to catch up (but of course, âas effortless as possibleâ does not means zero effort). Esteban > On 12 Apr 2019, at 03:06, john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > +1 on the long term support idea. Changing an application every year to support a new version of Pharo is a nonstarter for most of my clients. > > /*âââââââââââââââââ-*/ > Sent from my iPhone > https://boincstats.com/signature/-1/user/51616339056/sig.png > See https://objectnets.net and https://objectnets.org > >> On Apr 11, 2019, at 06:33, "jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de" <jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> wrote: >> >> +1 on the long term support and stability topic. >

April 12, 2019

is this a valid Smalltalk way

by Roelof Wobben

Hello, Im thinking how to solve this one : https://github.com/exercism/problem-specifications/blob/master/exercises/bo… so I thought because you throw two times for a frame to solve it like this : aCollection withIndexDo: [:index :item | Â Â (if spare) ifTrue: take 3 items out of the score collection and sum them up Â Â (if strike) ifTrue: take 4 items out of the score collection and sum them up. Â Â (if not a spare and not a strike) : ifTrue:Â take 2 items out of the score collection and sum them up. Â Â index := index + 2Â // becauseÂ a frame is always two times a throw Now I wonder if this is a valid smalltalk to do this Roelof

April 12, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] [OT] (slightly) What makes other dialects "enjoyable" for you? (WAS: difference between double dispatch...)

by Otto Behrens

Hi, We use Pharo as a development environment and we run a business. So, for us stability and an LTS version makes sense. I think there should be a compromise. The Ubuntu LTS model is a compromise in a sense because the releases between the LTS versions include the newer / more experimental stuff. >From what I understand, the fork of Pharo from Squeak was intended to provide more stability and make Pharo an environment that businesses like us could use. This means that there must be a reasonable degree of stability in Pharo. I also understand that the goal was to get to a minimal Pharo and build up by loading what you need on top of that. And other reasons. Our experience was that Pharo 2 was quite stable, Pharo 3 was even better. We lived on Pharo 3 for a very long time. Pharo 4 broke, 5 was better and we're now on 6.1. None of these are as good as Pharo 3 was from a stability point of view. I understand the innovation dilemma and wish there was a clean answer, but believe we need both. I wish I could get a tiny gap to work on Pharo itself and not have this relentless focus on survival in the business. I thank you all for your hard work on Pharo. Cheers Otto Behrens +27 82 802 2375 [image: FINWorks] [image: FINWorks] <http://za.linkedin.com/in/waltherbehrens> www.finworks.biz On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 10:26 AM Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > So you earn money with pharo? Isnât that a bit risky if you donât have > someone to ask if you have a critical problem? That is what you get when > you pay into the consortium. Is it that you demand that from the mailing > list and the people that work in their free time? > > Norbert > > > Am 12.04.2019 um 03:06 schrieb john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com>: > > > > +1 on the long term support idea. Changing an application every year to > support a new version of Pharo is a nonstarter for most of my clients. > > > > /*âââââââââââââââââ-*/ > > Sent from my iPhone > > https://boincstats.com/signature/-1/user/51616339056/sig.png > > See https://objectnets.net and https://objectnets.org > > > >> On Apr 11, 2019, at 06:33, "jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de" < > jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> wrote: > >> > >> +1 on the long term support and stability topic. > > > > >

April 12, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Richard Kenneth Eng is NOT Mr. Smalltalk

by Ben Coman

I'm currently travelling behind the Great Firewall of China with limited Internet so I may not be able to respond promptly. I saw the thread re-developing but only managed to get a private comment through to Richard. First, I need to apologize to Michael and the community for not yet doing what I'd committed to, to discuss this thread with Richard. The impact was Richard came upon this thread in surprise and needed to defend himself. Thank you Michael for taking the majority of discussion off-list. Richard, I'll chat with you more on this on Skype sometime over the next few weeks when I start up on your JRMPC project. My current takeaways are: * If the goal is to engage the broadest audience, Michael's experience of the impact on third-parties is important to know. * Its easy to get entrenched in an auto-defensive position, but more effective to listen to understand how to reach people more effectively. There is always something to learn from opposing view points. * Making someone wrong is not the best way to get your point across. * Its better to do things sooner rather than later (i.e. me), even when busy with other things. cheers -ben On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 18:33, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > Thanks guys - I think some useful clarifications came out of this - and I > hope it doesnât dent anyoneâs enthusiasm to spreading the good word about > all useful technology and approaches. > > > On 11 Apr 2019, at 08:28, Michael Zeder <post(a)michael-j-zeder.de> wrote: > > > > > > > >> How about we just move on? > > > > Thanks. I have responded in private to persons who asked for it, to not > further flood the list. > > > > To close this thread, I feel it may be necessary to say something > conciliatory: So, apology to Richard for being rude and loud. I was pushing > for reactions, and since you sought the lime light yourself, I was > particularly harsh. > > > > > >> ... everyone focuses on the merits of their respective > languages/approaches - IÂ´m more interested seeing energy invested in the > next cool things in all languages. IÂ´m also keen for us also finishing off > the bits we still in progress. And I hope we can constructively share ideas > ... > > > > Fully agreed. I stand by my points, public appearance of a community is > a concern. A seclusive "obscure" small niche language which makes a "silly" > picture in web searches and bashes and lashes out on big languages (for > good/bad reasons) is not appealing and does not market itself well. > > (Since a criticized again, apology again for the tone) > > > > >

April 12, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] [OT] (slightly) What makes other dialects "enjoyable" for you? (WAS: difference between double dispatch...)

by Norbert Hartl

So you earn money with pharo? Isnât that a bit risky if you donât have someone to ask if you have a critical problem? That is what you get when you pay into the consortium. Is it that you demand that from the mailing list and the people that work in their free time? Norbert > Am 12.04.2019 um 03:06 schrieb john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com>: > > +1 on the long term support idea. Changing an application every year to support a new version of Pharo is a nonstarter for most of my clients. > > /*âââââââââââââââââ-*/ > Sent from my iPhone > https://boincstats.com/signature/-1/user/51616339056/sig.png > See https://objectnets.net and https://objectnets.org > >> On Apr 11, 2019, at 06:33, "jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de" <jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> wrote: >> >> +1 on the long term support and stability topic. >

April 12, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] [OT] (slightly) What makes other dialects "enjoyable" for you? (WAS: difference between double dispatch...)

by ducasse

How much are you ready to pay for LTS? BTW Pharo on knowroaming servers is super super super stable. This is the guy in charge of pharo there that told us this during Pharodays. Stef > On 12 Apr 2019, at 03:06, john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > +1 on the long term support idea. Changing an application every year to support a new version of Pharo is a nonstarter for most of my clients. > > /*âââââââââââââââââ-*/ > Sent from my iPhone > https://boincstats.com/signature/-1/user/51616339056/sig.png > See https://objectnets.net and https://objectnets.org > >> On Apr 11, 2019, at 06:33, "jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de" <jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> wrote: >> >> +1 on the long term support and stability topic. >

April 12, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] seaside.gemtalksystems.com and ss3.gemtalksystems.com are off-line

by Dale Henrichs

The sites are up now ... haven't heard the gory details about what caused the outage... Dale On 4/11/19 5:38 PM, Dale Henrichs wrote: > The ISPÂ that is hosting both sites has gone off-line and we are not > quite sure what the current status is ... other than that multiple > machines are down beyond the machine that is used to host > seaside.gemtalksystems.com and ss3.gemtalksystems.com. > > The host for the glass mailing list is on one of the other machines > that has dropped off-line as well. > > We'll send mail when we have more information ... > > Dale >

April 12, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] [OT] (slightly) What makes other dialects "enjoyable" for you? (WAS: difference between double dispatch...)

by john pfersich

+1 on the long term support idea. Changing an application every year to support a new version of Pharo is a nonstarter for most of my clients. /*âââââââââââââââââ-*/ Sent from my iPhone https://boincstats.com/signature/-1/user/51616339056/sig.png See https://objectnets.net and https://objectnets.org > On Apr 11, 2019, at 06:33, "jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de" <jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> wrote: > > +1 on the long term support and stability topic.

April 12, 2019

seaside.gemtalksystems.com and ss3.gemtalksystems.com are off-line

by Dale Henrichs

The ISPÂ that is hosting both sites has gone off-line and we are not quite sure what the current status is ... other than that multiple machines are down beyond the machine that is used to host seaside.gemtalksystems.com and ss3.gemtalksystems.com. The host for the glass mailing list is on one of the other machines that has dropped off-line as well. We'll send mail when we have more information ... Dale

April 12, 2019