- Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] glamorous toolkit forum/maillist

by James Foster

Googling âWhat is Discordâ brought me to https://discordapp.com <https://discordapp.com/>. > On Apr 19, 2019, at 2:50 PM, Steve Quezadas <steveeq1(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Forgive my ignorance, but what is Discord? > > On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 1:29 AM Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com <mailto:serge.stinckwich@gmail.com>> wrote: > I think #gtoolkit channel on Discord is the best way to discuss with people. > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 6:37 PM Steve Quezadas <steveeq1(a)gmail.com <mailto:steveeq1@gmail.com>> wrote: > Is there a forum or maillist for glamorous toolkit? I can't find anything on the official website or google searches. > > > -- > Serge Stinckwicâhâ > Int. Research Unit on Modelling/Simulation of Complex Systems (UMMISCO) > âSorbonne University (SU) > French National Research Institute for Sustainable Development (IRD)â > Uâniversity of YaoundÃ© Iâ, Cameroun > "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." > https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich <https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich> > â

April 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] glamorous toolkit forum/maillist

by Steve Quezadas

Forgive my ignorance, but what is Discord? On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 1:29 AM Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I think #gtoolkit channel on Discord is the best way to discuss with > people. > > On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 6:37 PM Steve Quezadas <steveeq1(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Is there a forum or maillist for glamorous toolkit? I can't find anything >> on the official website or google searches. >> > > > -- > Serge Stinckwic > âhâ > > Int. Research Unit > on Modelling/Simulation of Complex Systems (UMMISCO) > âSorbonne University > (SU) > French National Research Institute for Sustainable Development (IRD)â > U > âniversity of YaoundÃ© Iâ, Cameroun > "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for > machines to execute." > https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich > â >

April 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] (Re)Introducing Mars (Spec 2.0 Gtk3 bindings)

by TedVanGaalen

Hi Esteban let me write an example: (lots of time at the moment) -------- Hypothetical CASE 1 Stand Alone Solution: Currently it's just a pilot/study project, but let's assume for a moment that after a year so of really hard working on it in Pharo, I finally completed my dental application system, that is, as as a stand-alone desktop application... After splatting a few initial bugs, the dental clinic is happy with my new dental application, and they paid my bill. Mods were relatively easy to implement, because it is Smalltalk, not to mention the fantastic debugger facilities, simply very cool. They need to run the app simultaneously on 4 computers: that is 4 stand alone apps running their own separated Smalltalk images. Using a Postgress server as a DB on one of their PCs tied everything together. Apart from having to install live Smalltalk images om each computer, backing them up etc. not much of a problem, one would think, right? So far so good. ...apart from having to install and maintain the app on each and every computer they use, that is... Two weeks later after my app went real: The clinic is expanding and another 3 computers will be added soon, meaning yet even more to install and maintain. Hey! also a new update of Pharo arrives, I need to update 7 images import my apps packages in the new images again. ( let alone the many system updates on especially Windows machines) Test if everything works ok again etc. Having no down-time is crucial: all done outside of the clinic's working hours, of course. Great. Oh, I almost forgot: they will install a iPads and/or Android tablets soon, which will mounted close near each patient chair. They do that anyway because analytical imaging apps and a drill controlling app of other firms run on these tablets. They would be happy if they could run my dental app on these tablets too, so they don't have walk back and forth to their PCs all the time. Jikes! Now I am really stuck! Because I wrote a stand alone app that doesn't run on these tablets! What can I do? Write special versions of my app for Androids and iPads? Impossible! this would take me a year or so. Nightmare. In the end the clinic dumped my app and thus me, and bought another app from another firm, which runs on all devices because it is a web app. How could I be so stupid not to make it a web browser app in the first place? -------- Hypothetical CASE 2: App as Web Browser App: Took a more modern approach: programmed my app for user access via a web browser, A web browser is, if you really look at it, in fact nothing more than a very advanced user terminal with endles GUI possibilities. Which btw allowed me to style the app esthetically in any way my customer likes. Now the cool thing is, on many devices, whether PCs, Macs, Android and Apple tablets and Phones the user GUI presentation and interaction is nearly identical. Which implies, I have to write my dental app only once, and it will run on any device that is connected to an intranet or internet. Not only that, there is just *one* single Pharo Image running instead of many stand alone apps on an ever changing nr of computers. .When installing a new Pharo version or update the app, I test it on another Pharo/Seaside server and can switch seamlessly between the two. The dental clinic is happy because it runs flawlessly on all devices they have and expanding or shrinking the number of devices is no problem. Not only that, In case of problems one can switch in no time to the shadow server app so we have continuity here. There is another important advantage as well. The users interacts with the app in a browser window only, (a thin client) that means they don't have access to the real application, that is, the delicate Smalltalk image of the Pharo/Seaside server app which runs 24/7 on a reasonably fast computer in a locked room with an emergency power supply of course, together with its friend the Database, and the room is only accessible by a responsible employee(s). I am happy too, not only because the customer is, but also because I avoided a nightmare and can do maintenance and updates, say, in 5 % of the time needed when I had to do maintenance for e.g. 7 stand alone apps running om separate computers. --------- So far for my hypothetical examples, just to illustrate. Note that on the internet, each site that you might visit is of course a web app of its own. So you probably interact with more web apps than you'd realize. Note that some are really advanced like e.g. web shops like Amazon. There are many good websites that function really great, but a lot are almost depressing. You're absolutely right that a lot of it is inferior, but you might have noticed also that things are slowly improving. This bad quality with (still) many web apps/sites is because as you know these are mostly built with chaotic hybrid systems/tools and unsafe languages like Javascript, ever changing packages, interfaces, tools etc. Compared to that, building web apps with Pharo/Seaside is a lot more straight forward and reliable, because everything is done in the Smalltalk image. Note that the web browser is not the limit itself, but rather the web app using the browser GUI. You can really design and build beautiful and ergonomically sound web apps, because there are so many possibilities. However, the main reason for choosing to make apps as web apps is that it is the only way to get your app and data accessible op nearly all devices. Build it once and run it everywhere. You see, this is a typical application developer's perspective, not that far from reality, I can tell you that. Kindly asking Tool Developers to learn more about the people and their environment they build tools for. because it's not only tech but a lot of things around it too. In any case Smalltalk/Pharo/Seaside is a great to build apps with. Unfortunately a lot of people still don't know this. Kind Regards Ted -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

April 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] (Re)Introducing Mars (Spec 2.0 Gtk3 bindings)

by Alexandre Bergel

Hi Esteban, This is fantastic! We are eager to investigate how Roassal3 can run in an external window. Alexandre > On Apr 18, 2019, at 6:08 AM, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > People that assisted to Pharo Days 2019 (or that follow my twitter account) already know this, but it needs to be formally announced: > > We are working on Spec 2.0, and it will provide not just the classic Morphic bindings but also a new option for developers: Gtk3 bindings! > > Why we want a Spec 2.0 with different backends? > > There are reasons that converged to decide us to make it: > > â¢ First, to provide a validated abstract Spec 2.0 that can be used with different backends, preparing Pharo to be able to switch backends without needing to recreate the full IDE from scratch each time (a problem we have partially now in our way to deprecate Morphic). > â¢ Second, because we receive from different sources the requirement of having the possibility of developing real native-looking desktop applications. Yes, in moment where people talk about the cloud, SaaS and web-applications as the "next big thing" (something that is been declared since years, by the way), we believe is important to provide this, for two big reasons: > â¢ Because there is still an important place for desktop applications market and most medium-size to big business still require them. > â¢ Because Pharo itself is a desktop application! (And we need to provide the best experience possible on it). > > For us, this is a fundamental step to continue improving Pharo itself, and it matches also the work we are doing on going real-headless: Pharo users will be able to start the Morphic world, a Gtk application or the next backend to come. > > Why Gtk3? > > There are some other important players in the "native widgets scene", so why we choose Gtk3? > > Again, several reasons were taken into account: > > â¢ Gtk3 is cross platform. Yes, technically is just "native" in linux, but it works on Windows and macOS too. > â¢ It is very mature and popular. > â¢ It is made in plain C. > > Next step: tool migration > > The only way to know if you have covered what is needed is actually taking real-life use cases and implementing them. We have a list of tools that needs to be migrated and we are starting from them: > > â¢ Old GT tools will be replaced by new Spec tools (while preserving its power). > â¢ Calypso UI needs to be rewritten in Spec 2.0 (it is in plain Morphic now). > â¢ Pharo launcher as a standalone application is a good example of what you can do with the Gtk3 bindings. > > And that's it. Pharo 8.0 will come with Spec 2.0 and users will be able to benefit of it immediately :) > > > A small screenshot of the new Inspector (WIP): > > <Screenshot 2019-04-18 at 12.07.16.png> > > Esteban

April 19, 2019

Pharo developer needed

by Serge Stinckwich

Nicolas Becu is looking urgently for a Pharo developer for 4 months, based in La Rochelle, France. Please see the file attached (in French). Regards, -- Serge Stinckwic h Int. Research Unit on Modelling/Simulation of Complex Systems (UMMISCO) Sorbonne University (SU) French National Research Institute for Sustainable Development (IRD) U niversity of YaoundÃ© I, Cameroun "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich

April 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] (Re)Introducing Mars (Spec 2.0 Gtk3 bindings)

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 19 Apr 2019, at 19:55, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi, > >> On 19 Apr 2019, at 19:17, TedVanGaalen <tedvga(a)gmail.com <mailto:tedvga@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> "Because there is still an important place for desktop applications market >> and most medium-size >> to big business still require them." >> Really? Most things run on browsers these days. > > I say same: Really? > How many web applications do you use regularly? > Because I see my own desktop, I use a lot of applications and none of them is a desktop application: None of the is a *web* application ;) > - the apps I use to program: desktop. > - the apps I use to communicate: desktop (and yes, there is gmail but I use mail, and there is discord web, but the desktop app is betterâ¦ and all the others I use). > - the apps I use to write: desktop. > - the apps to play: desktop. > - the apps I use to play: desktop. > If I checkâ¦ the only web application I use is my home banking app. And that, when I go through my laptop, because if I use my phone I have an app who is a native app (so is assimilable to âdesktopâ). > > You may say âbut you are you and thatâs not the generalityâ. Well, maybe, but: > > - I check my girlfriendâs computer (she is a sociology professorâ¦ nothing to do with software): she uses Ulysses to write (a desktop app), pages and office (desktop, forget about 365 or others). Here other tools: chat, discord, mail. Always desktop. > - I talk with my brother in law (he works at facebook, but in the âcontrolâ part): they use a desktop app. > - I go to a restaurant: they use a desktop app. > - I talk with a friend of mine who owns a real state business: desktop apps to manage them. > > For area: > - programming tools: web IDEs are at least for now just a toy. > - productivity tools: all in desktop (web versions do not match them) > - graphical tools: desktop. > - games: desktop. > (And I can continue) > > Really, people: how many web applications have *for real* replaced the desktop apps? > They have enlarge the possibilities: yes. > They are useful in certain scenarios: yes. > They are preferred for big business: (seems to) yes. > > But that is just a small part of that. > All the rest is desktop. > Do not fool yourself. > > 15 years ago people were already talking about the web-apps revolution. > And we are still talking about. > It may or may not happen, but we are still far from it. > >> >> Why would I need a GTK layer? >> (btw, GTK is yet another dependency on a 3rd party package) > > Breaking news: if you donât want it, you donât use it. > (But even then, you are already relying in 3rd party packages) > >> >> In my opinion >> the most versatile and advanced user application >> interface is: >> almost any internet browser! > > > Already answered. I find that sentence at least an exaggeration (and a misread of reality). > >> >> Through all these many years, internet browsers have evolved into >> excellent GUIs with endless possibilities for style (css) >> formatting, fonts, colors, buttons etc. Extremely flexible. you can even >> include >> all sorts of plugins, Also you can use image morphs for graphs etc. >> What runs in a browser is computer independent, you'd cover many devices >> (phones, pads, pc, macs, tv, etc) in one go. >> In many cases, you don't even have to manage layout, browser does it for >> you. >> What more to wish for? >> >> I could ask then, why implement similar GUI stuff, writing tons of >> classes that interact with GTK, when internet browsers offer >> already a myriad of far more advanced features? >> Why re-invent the wheel? > > And I could ask you: Why nobody has done it as reliable as a desktop app? > But hey! Nothing forbids us to do a web based spec backend. Is just the decision of someone to implement it. > >> >> >> The combination Pharo with Seaside (or equivalent) is very powerful. >> Sure, there might be some situations where using a browser as >> user interface is not desired or adequate, but currently I can't think of >> one. > > Matter of opinions. I canât think on a situation when I would prefer a web app over a desktop app. > >> >> So Imho best thing to do is: >> ***Always make any user app as a web app!*** >> Which of course you can run "stand alone" with Pharo/Seaside as server >> e.g. localhost:8080/yourApp > > The moment you say âalwaysâ you are already taking a fanatic decision that reality can prove it wrong. > There is no silver bullet: > - I do not think everything has to be desktop > - Nor I think the solution for everything is web > > By implementing the Spec 2 backend what we are doing is putting Pharo in a position of switching backends if we decide it. > By implementing the Gtk3 backend we are empowering the vast majority of Pharo users by giving to them a way to do something they couldnât before (and yes, there is already people using it to develop their business). >> >> If one day a user would like to use their app via the internet, >> then no changes are needed because the app was already >> initially made for an internet browser as GUI, so it will run anywhere. > > Yeah, well. > Until you have a functionality implemented that is not supported in your browser (and then you need to update/change browsers). > And then tell me: who is relying in a 3rd party software? > >> To make apps that way the Pharo IDE as it is now stand alone is a pleasure. >> I am currently restarting my app dev with Pharo/Seaside. >> The image is a start of the dental app I am making, far from complete, but >> I am sure you'll get the general idea. > > I get it. > I just think you are not taking into account the problem others may have but your own needs here. > > - we want YOU to succeed on making a web application (and that means probably seaside+pharo in someway) > - but we also want to give you the best tools to developâ¦ in Pharo. And Pharo is a desktop application and it will continue like that for many time. Then we invest in Spec2: to make the best UI layer we can provide. As aligned with state of the art desktop developments as we can. > > Esteban > >> Regards >> Ted >> <http://forum.world.st/file/t230630/Screen_Shot_2019-04-19_at_18.png <http://forum.world.st/file/t230630/Screen_Shot_2019-04-19_at_18.png>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html>

April 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] (Re)Introducing Mars (Spec 2.0 Gtk3 bindings)

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hi, > On 19 Apr 2019, at 19:17, TedVanGaalen <tedvga(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > "Because there is still an important place for desktop applications market > and most medium-size > to big business still require them." > Really? Most things run on browsers these days. I say same: Really? How many web applications do you use regularly? Because I see my own desktop, I use a lot of applications and none of them is a desktop application: - the apps I use to program: desktop. - the apps I use to communicate: desktop (and yes, there is gmail but I use mail, and there is discord web, but the desktop app is betterâ¦ and all the others I use). - the apps I use to write: desktop. - the apps to play: desktop. - the apps I use to play: desktop. If I checkâ¦ the only web application I use is my home banking app. And that, when I go through my laptop, because if I use my phone I have an app who is a native app (so is assimilable to âdesktopâ). You may say âbut you are you and thatâs not the generalityâ. Well, maybe, but: - I check my girlfriendâs computer (she is a sociology professorâ¦ nothing to do with software): she uses Ulysses to write (a desktop app), pages and office (desktop, forget about 365 or others). Here other tools: chat, discord, mail. Always desktop. - I talk with my brother in law (he works at facebook, but in the âcontrolâ part): they use a desktop app. - I go to a restaurant: they use a desktop app. - I talk with a friend of mine who owns a real state business: desktop apps to manage them. For area: - programming tools: web IDEs are at least for now just a toy. - productivity tools: all in desktop (web versions do not match them) - graphical tools: desktop. - games: desktop. (And I can continue) Really, people: how many web applications have *for real* replaced the desktop apps? They have enlarge the possibilities: yes. They are useful in certain scenarios: yes. They are preferred for big business: (seems to) yes. But that is just a small part of that. All the rest is desktop. Do not fool yourself. 15 years ago people were already talking about the web-apps revolution. And we are still talking about. It may or may not happen, but we are still far from it. > > Why would I need a GTK layer? > (btw, GTK is yet another dependency on a 3rd party package) Breaking news: if you donât want it, you donât use it. (But even then, you are already relying in 3rd party packages) > > In my opinion > the most versatile and advanced user application > interface is: > almost any internet browser! Already answered. I find that sentence at least an exaggeration (and a misread of reality). > > Through all these many years, internet browsers have evolved into > excellent GUIs with endless possibilities for style (css) > formatting, fonts, colors, buttons etc. Extremely flexible. you can even > include > all sorts of plugins, Also you can use image morphs for graphs etc. > What runs in a browser is computer independent, you'd cover many devices > (phones, pads, pc, macs, tv, etc) in one go. > In many cases, you don't even have to manage layout, browser does it for > you. > What more to wish for? > > I could ask then, why implement similar GUI stuff, writing tons of > classes that interact with GTK, when internet browsers offer > already a myriad of far more advanced features? > Why re-invent the wheel? And I could ask you: Why nobody has done it as reliable as a desktop app? But hey! Nothing forbids us to do a web based spec backend. Is just the decision of someone to implement it. > > > The combination Pharo with Seaside (or equivalent) is very powerful. > Sure, there might be some situations where using a browser as > user interface is not desired or adequate, but currently I can't think of > one. Matter of opinions. I canât think on a situation when I would prefer a web app over a desktop app. > > So Imho best thing to do is: > ***Always make any user app as a web app!*** > Which of course you can run "stand alone" with Pharo/Seaside as server > e.g. localhost:8080/yourApp The moment you say âalwaysâ you are already taking a fanatic decision that reality can prove it wrong. There is no silver bullet: - I do not think everything has to be desktop - Nor I think the solution for everything is web By implementing the Spec 2 backend what we are doing is putting Pharo in a position of switching backends if we decide it. By implementing the Gtk3 backend we are empowering the vast majority of Pharo users by giving to them a way to do something they couldnât before (and yes, there is already people using it to develop their business). > > If one day a user would like to use their app via the internet, > then no changes are needed because the app was already > initially made for an internet browser as GUI, so it will run anywhere. Yeah, well. Until you have a functionality implemented that is not supported in your browser (and then you need to update/change browsers). And then tell me: who is relying in a 3rd party software? > To make apps that way the Pharo IDE as it is now stand alone is a pleasure. > I am currently restarting my app dev with Pharo/Seaside. > The image is a start of the dental app I am making, far from complete, but > I am sure you'll get the general idea. I get it. I just think you are not taking into account the problem others may have but your own needs here. - we want YOU to succeed on making a web application (and that means probably seaside+pharo in someway) - but we also want to give you the best tools to developâ¦ in Pharo. And Pharo is a desktop application and it will continue like that for many time. Then we invest in Spec2: to make the best UI layer we can provide. As aligned with state of the art desktop developments as we can. Esteban > Regards > Ted > <http://forum.world.st/file/t230630/Screen_Shot_2019-04-19_at_18.png> > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

April 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] (Re)Introducing Mars (Spec 2.0 Gtk3 bindings)

by CÃ©drick BÃ©ler

> > "Because there is still an important place for desktop applications market > and most medium-size > to big business still require them." > Really? Most things run on browsers these days. > > Why would I need a GTK layer? > (btw, GTK is yet another dependency on a 3rd party package) > In my opinion > the most versatile and advanced user application > interface is: > almost any internet browser! Maybe but desktop apps feel nice to me. Maybe because the web wasnât designed for apps... Iâm ok with them but I want desktop apps these days. My 2 cents

April 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] (Re)Introducing Mars (Spec 2.0 Gtk3 bindings)

by TedVanGaalen

"Because there is still an important place for desktop applications market and most medium-size to big business still require them." Really? Most things run on browsers these days. Why would I need a GTK layer? (btw, GTK is yet another dependency on a 3rd party package) In my opinion the most versatile and advanced user application interface is: almost any internet browser! Through all these many years, internet browsers have evolved into excellent GUIs with endless possibilities for style (css) formatting, fonts, colors, buttons etc. Extremely flexible. you can even include all sorts of plugins, Also you can use image morphs for graphs etc. What runs in a browser is computer independent, you'd cover many devices (phones, pads, pc, macs, tv, etc) in one go. In many cases, you don't even have to manage layout, browser does it for you. What more to wish for? I could ask then, why implement similar GUI stuff, writing tons of classes that interact with GTK, when internet browsers offer already a myriad of far more advanced features? Why re-invent the wheel? The combination Pharo with Seaside (or equivalent) is very powerful. Sure, there might be some situations where using a browser as user interface is not desired or adequate, but currently I can't think of one. So Imho best thing to do is: ***Always make any user app as a web app!*** Which of course you can run "stand alone" with Pharo/Seaside as server e.g. localhost:8080/yourApp If one day a user would like to use their app via the internet, then no changes are needed because the app was already initially made for an internet browser as GUI, so it will run anywhere. To make apps that way the Pharo IDE as it is now stand alone is a pleasure. I am currently restarting my app dev with Pharo/Seaside. The image is a start of the dental app I am making, far from complete, but I am sure you'll get the general idea. Regards Ted <http://forum.world.st/file/t230630/Screen_Shot_2019-04-19_at_18.png> -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

April 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] NewWave - WorkflowEngine

by Norbert Hartl

I think you should flood the mailing list. Iâm interested, too > Am 19.04.2019 um 18:40 schrieb Smalltalk <smalltalk(a)adinet.com.uy>: > > Serge, > > Yes, we can work together. > > Send me a private mail so we do not flood the Pharo list. > > Tell me what you have in mind... > > regards, > > bruno > >> El 19/04/2019 a las 9:55, Serge Stinckwich escribiÃ³: >> >> >>> On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 4:32 PM BrunoBB <smalltalk(a)adinet.com.uy> wrote: >>> Hi Sebastijan, >>> >>> Excellent work !!! >>> >>> I have something similar (a BPM engine) but developed with GemStone >>> Smalltalk: >>> Code: >>> https://github.com/brunobuzzi/BpmFlow >>> Documentation: >>> https://bpmflow.gitbook.io/project/introduction >>> >>> It can be ported to Pharo, from the top of my head i see a couple of issues >>> with the port: >>> - GemStone/S special indexes collection must be changed for regular Pharo >>> collections. >>> - GsQuery should be implemented in Pharo (maybe already is i do not know) or >>> remove GsQuery references and so regular collection queries (select:, >>> collect: anySatisfy and so on) >>> >>> The project is totally open source. >>> >> >> >> There is also the BPMN engine that we build with Alvaro Peralta: >> https://github.com/A4BP >> Maybe we can work together ? >> >> Regards, >> -- >> Serge Stinckwic >> h >> >> Int. Research Unit >> on Modelling/Simulation of Complex Systems (UMMISCO) >> Sorbonne University >> (SU) >> French National Research Institute for Sustainable Development (IRD) >> U >> niversity of YaoundÃ© I, Cameroun >> "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." >> https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich

April 19, 2019