On 19 Apr 2019, at 19:55, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
On 19 Apr 2019, at 19:17, TedVanGaalen <tedvga@gmail.com <mailto:tedvga@gmail.com>> wrote:
"Because there is still an important place for desktop applications market and most medium-size to big business still require them." Really? Most things run on browsers these days.
I say same: Really? How many web applications do you use regularly? Because I see my own desktop, I use a lot of applications and none of them is a desktop application: None of the is a *web* application ;)
- the apps I use to program: desktop. - the apps I use to communicate: desktop (and yes, there is gmail but I use mail, and there is discord web, but the desktop app is better⦠and all the others I use). - the apps I use to write: desktop. - the apps to play: desktop. - the apps I use to play: desktop. If I check⦠the only web application I use is my home banking app. And that, when I go through my laptop, because if I use my phone I have an app who is a native app (so is assimilable to âdesktopâ).
You may say âbut you are you and thatâs not the generalityâ. Well, maybe, but:
- I check my girlfriendâs computer (she is a sociology professor⦠nothing to do with software): she uses Ulysses to write (a desktop app), pages and office (desktop, forget about 365 or others). Here other tools: chat, discord, mail. Always desktop. - I talk with my brother in law (he works at facebook, but in the âcontrolâ part): they use a desktop app. - I go to a restaurant: they use a desktop app. - I talk with a friend of mine who owns a real state business: desktop apps to manage them.
For area: - programming tools: web IDEs are at least for now just a toy. - productivity tools: all in desktop (web versions do not match them) - graphical tools: desktop. - games: desktop. (And I can continue)
Really, people: how many web applications have *for real* replaced the desktop apps? They have enlarge the possibilities: yes. They are useful in certain scenarios: yes. They are preferred for big business: (seems to) yes.
But that is just a small part of that. All the rest is desktop. Do not fool yourself.
15 years ago people were already talking about the web-apps revolution. And we are still talking about. It may or may not happen, but we are still far from it.
Why would I need a GTK layer? (btw, GTK is yet another dependency on a 3rd party package)
Breaking news: if you donât want it, you donât use it. (But even then, you are already relying in 3rd party packages)
In my opinion the most versatile and advanced user application interface is: almost any internet browser!
Already answered. I find that sentence at least an exaggeration (and a misread of reality).
Through all these many years, internet browsers have evolved into excellent GUIs with endless possibilities for style (css) formatting, fonts, colors, buttons etc. Extremely flexible. you can even include all sorts of plugins, Also you can use image morphs for graphs etc. What runs in a browser is computer independent, you'd cover many devices (phones, pads, pc, macs, tv, etc) in one go. In many cases, you don't even have to manage layout, browser does it for you. What more to wish for?
I could ask then, why implement similar GUI stuff, writing tons of classes that interact with GTK, when internet browsers offer already a myriad of far more advanced features? Why re-invent the wheel?
And I could ask you: Why nobody has done it as reliable as a desktop app? But hey! Nothing forbids us to do a web based spec backend. Is just the decision of someone to implement it.
The combination Pharo with Seaside (or equivalent) is very powerful. Sure, there might be some situations where using a browser as user interface is not desired or adequate, but currently I can't think of one.
Matter of opinions. I canât think on a situation when I would prefer a web app over a desktop app.
So Imho best thing to do is: ***Always make any user app as a web app!*** Which of course you can run "stand alone" with Pharo/Seaside as server e.g. localhost:8080/yourApp
The moment you say âalwaysâ you are already taking a fanatic decision that reality can prove it wrong. There is no silver bullet: - I do not think everything has to be desktop - Nor I think the solution for everything is web
By implementing the Spec 2 backend what we are doing is putting Pharo in a position of switching backends if we decide it. By implementing the Gtk3 backend we are empowering the vast majority of Pharo users by giving to them a way to do something they couldnât before (and yes, there is already people using it to develop their business).
If one day a user would like to use their app via the internet, then no changes are needed because the app was already initially made for an internet browser as GUI, so it will run anywhere.
Yeah, well. Until you have a functionality implemented that is not supported in your browser (and then you need to update/change browsers). And then tell me: who is relying in a 3rd party software?
To make apps that way the Pharo IDE as it is now stand alone is a pleasure. I am currently restarting my app dev with Pharo/Seaside. The image is a start of the dental app I am making, far from complete, but I am sure you'll get the general idea.
I get it. I just think you are not taking into account the problem others may have but your own needs here.
- we want YOU to succeed on making a web application (and that means probably seaside+pharo in someway) - but we also want to give you the best tools to develop⦠in Pharo. And Pharo is a desktop application and it will continue like that for many time. Then we invest in Spec2: to make the best UI layer we can provide. As aligned with state of the art desktop developments as we can.
Esteban
Regards Ted <http://forum.world.st/file/t230630/Screen_Shot_2019-04-19_at_18.png <http://forum.world.st/file/t230630/Screen_Shot_2019-04-19_at_18.png>>
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