- Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

auch ne Kalkulationsgrundlage ...

by Hartmut Krasemann

Am 12.12.15 um 18:00 schrieb pharo-users-request(a)lists.pharo.org: > Send Pharo-users mailing list submissions to > pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pharo-users-request(a)lists.pharo.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pharo-users-owner(a)lists.pharo.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Pharo-users digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: PharoJVM (Ben Coman) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 22:16:58 +0800 > From: Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> > To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM > Message-ID: > <CAProBTmaNFmR029FA==CYY6deepQG4=b+S2NgqtoWP6ZdaOVZg(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 8:41 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: >> Java cannot do become:, so, that's not going to be a "real" smalltalk. >> >> I do work w/ Java & Scala on a project. >> >> First, JAR hell -> productivity killer >> >> Second, lots of infrastructure needed: IDE, Maven, Artifactory, ... -> >> another productivity killer >> >> Long story short: prototype the thing in Pharo and if good enough, run it >> there. I've done that for one project of late. Net resut: it takes 5x the engineers >> and 3x the time to do the same in X than with Pharo. > A nice insight to a very interesting marketing technique ;) Many know > the quote "Plan to throw one away." > So you don't need to convince them upfront to adopt a technology > unknown to them - but then they see it working and balance that > against dollars. I guess if later Pharo encounters some > insurmountable barrier, they can still do the originally planned > re-inplementation in Java they originally planned - without too much > loss of face - but they get to do it from a well worn prototype. > > cheers -ben > >> If you want to do Java/Scala, by all means, go there. But why the hell is >> this going to be so important? >> >> Read >> https://www.quora.com/Of-the-emerging-systems-languages-Rust-D-Go-and-Nim-w… >> >> for lots of pro/cons arguments on other languages (which do not give a shit >> about Java mean you). >> >> >> Phil >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:41 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> At Redmonk >>> <http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2015/07/01/language-rankings-6-15/> >>> , Scala is a top 20 language (position #14). It's a widely used language, >>> too, though not in the same league as Java nor Python. Even Clojure and >>> Groovy are in the top 20. >>> >>> Scala is much, much more popular and widely used than Smalltalk. If >>> Smalltalk could rise to Scala's level, it would be a huge win. >>> >>> The reason Amber and Redline and others have never achieved popularity is >>> primarily due to the lack of proper marketing. There are a gazillion >>> programming languages out there vying for developer attention. Smalltalk >>> is >>> completely lost in the noise. It's a great platform, but if it doesn't >>> have >>> developer /mindshare/, people won't try it. How do you think they'll find >>> their way to Smalltalk/Pharo? By divination? >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: >>> http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866722.html >>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>> >>> > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-users mailing list > Pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Pharo-users Digest, Vol 32, Issue 69 > ******************************************* -- signatur Hartmut Krasemann KÃ¶nigsberger Str. 41 c D 22869 Schenefeld Tel. 040.8307097 Mobil 0171.6451283 Krasemann(a)acm.org

Dec. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Dimitris Chloupis

Well if you want to work on redline and improve it , none will stop you, its a free... software... afterall ;) Simply complaining about things wont change much if anything. Frankly If I ever wanted to use Java libraries for any reason , I would not give up on Pharo just to use another pharo implementation which may or may not work as I expect it. I suspect most Pharoers would agree with me as well :) I rather do this from the comfort of my gorgeous pharo enviroment :) The latest commit in redline was back in October 2013 https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master On the other hand JNIPort had some recent commits by Tudor http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort/commits and it now supports pharo 5. Personally I dont care about making pharo more popular , I care about making pharo more.... pharo. I am very interested into live coding and visual coding. JVM is not invested on these areas, it has a very different mentality so porting pharo there is not something that interests me. Java with its huge popularly does not impress me as much pharo does in terms of flexibility, functionality and directness. I think that is why its difficult to bring pharo to diffirent platforms, the mentality of pharo and mentality of smalltalk is so specific that does not fit easily into other platforms. On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 7:17 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I looked at JNIPort. It's **very** limited in its capabilities. "Improving" > it may be an insurmountable task. > > Redline's approach was very attractive. Relatively clean and elegant, and > quite capable. It's a pity James Ladd couldn't get back to the project. > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866737.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Dec. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by horrido

I looked at JNIPort. It's **very** limited in its capabilities. "Improving" it may be an insurmountable task. Redline's approach was very attractive. Relatively clean and elegant, and quite capable. It's a pity James Ladd couldn't get back to the project. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866737.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Ben Coman

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 8:41 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: > Java cannot do become:, so, that's not going to be a "real" smalltalk. > > I do work w/ Java & Scala on a project. > > First, JAR hell -> productivity killer > > Second, lots of infrastructure needed: IDE, Maven, Artifactory, ... -> > another productivity killer > > Long story short: prototype the thing in Pharo and if good enough, run it > there. I've done that for one project of late. Net resut: it takes 5x the engineers > and 3x the time to do the same in X than with Pharo. A nice insight to a very interesting marketing technique ;) Many know the quote "Plan to throw one away." So you don't need to convince them upfront to adopt a technology unknown to them - but then they see it working and balance that against dollars. I guess if later Pharo encounters some insurmountable barrier, they can still do the originally planned re-inplementation in Java they originally planned - without too much loss of face - but they get to do it from a well worn prototype. cheers -ben > > If you want to do Java/Scala, by all means, go there. But why the hell is > this going to be so important? > > Read > https://www.quora.com/Of-the-emerging-systems-languages-Rust-D-Go-and-Nim-w… > > for lots of pro/cons arguments on other languages (which do not give a shit > about Java mean you). > > > Phil > > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:41 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> At Redmonk >> <http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2015/07/01/language-rankings-6-15/> >> , Scala is a top 20 language (position #14). It's a widely used language, >> too, though not in the same league as Java nor Python. Even Clojure and >> Groovy are in the top 20. >> >> Scala is much, much more popular and widely used than Smalltalk. If >> Smalltalk could rise to Scala's level, it would be a huge win. >> >> The reason Amber and Redline and others have never achieved popularity is >> primarily due to the lack of proper marketing. There are a gazillion >> programming languages out there vying for developer attention. Smalltalk >> is >> completely lost in the noise. It's a great platform, but if it doesn't >> have >> developer /mindshare/, people won't try it. How do you think they'll find >> their way to Smalltalk/Pharo? By divination? >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866722.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> >

Dec. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by phil＠highoctane.be

Looks like there is Pharo engineer position that will take care of ARM. On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 12:30 PM, Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero < ajaczgz(a)yahoo.es> wrote: > Hello > > The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers > will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java. > > The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more > extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is > to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no > phones nor phablets). > > Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero > ------------------------------ > De: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > Enviado: â12/â12/â2015 10:25 > Para: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM > > Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based > languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they > dont even make the top 20. > > I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not > only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java > library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by > very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its > barely alive. > > The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM > or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to > stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript > though both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess. > > Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely > active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides > to embrace JVM or JS as platforms. > > And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort > > http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort > > https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition > > I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement > pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication > bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code. > > Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo > with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to > stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message. > > *Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. * > > On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java >> and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE >> will most likely name Java *Programming Language of the Year* for 2015. >> (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.) >> >> It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android >> programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed >> iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and >> Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java >> seems to be well-suited. >> >> (I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe >> there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A >> clean, simple syntax is very, very important!) >> >> I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java >> cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on >> Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress. >> >> Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus >> on putting Pharo on the JVM? >> >

Dec. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by phil＠highoctane.be

Java cannot do become:, so, that's not going to be a "real" smalltalk. I do work w/ Java & Scala on a project. First, JAR hell -> productivity killer Second, lots of infrastructure needed: IDE, Maven, Artifactory, ... -> another productivity killer Long story short: prototype the thing in Pharo and if good enough, run it there. I've done that for one project of late. Net resut: it takes 5x the engineers and 3x the time to do the same in X than with Pharo. If you want to do Java/Scala, by all means, go there. But why the hell is this going to be so important? Read https://www.quora.com/Of-the-emerging-systems-languages-Rust-D-Go-and-Nim-w… for lots of pro/cons arguments on other languages (which do not give a shit about Java mean you). Phil On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:41 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > At Redmonk <http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2015/07/01/language-rankings-6-15/ > > > , Scala is a top 20 language (position #14). It's a widely used language, > too, though not in the same league as Java nor Python. Even Clojure and > Groovy are in the top 20. > > Scala is much, much more popular and widely used than Smalltalk. If > Smalltalk could rise to Scala's level, it would be a huge win. > > The reason Amber and Redline and others have never achieved popularity is > primarily due to the lack of proper marketing. There are a gazillion > programming languages out there vying for developer attention. Smalltalk is > completely lost in the noise. It's a great platform, but if it doesn't have > developer /mindshare/, people won't try it. How do you think they'll find > their way to Smalltalk/Pharo? By divination? > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866722.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > >

Dec. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Dimitris Chloupis

Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well. On Android its still a work in progress but its improving On web you can already can use pharo for both the backend (server) and front end (browser-javascript-html-css) So Pharo has already spread on all major platforms , with the exception of Android where there is still work to be done to make it usable. In the dev list there was already an announcement for hiring a developer for one year to work on the Android. So Android is a matter of time too. For anyone that really cares about JVM in general as I already posted he/she can take JNIPort and improve it anyway he/she wants. Its not hard to create support for other languages if one wants to. I created support for python, another dude created support for R programming language who followed a similar approach to mine. But we all have personal reasons and needs for using pharo with other programming languages, I use it to script Blender the 3d application that happens to use python as its scripting language, other may use R for mathematical computations, other do web development, others want to make Android apps and so forth. Its impossible with such small community to fit the needs of every user of pharo or potential user, so it wont happen until like me you are ready to get your hands dirty to make Pharo work well for you. Else you are better coding in other language . On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero < ajaczgz(a)yahoo.es> wrote: > Hello > > The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers > will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java. > > The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more > extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is > to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no > phones nor phablets). > > Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero > ------------------------------ > De: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > Enviado: â12/â12/â2015 10:25 > Para: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM > > Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based > languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they > dont even make the top 20. > > I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not > only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java > library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by > very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its > barely alive. > > The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM > or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to > stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript > though both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess. > > Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely > active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides > to embrace JVM or JS as platforms. > > And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort > > http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort > > https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition > > I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement > pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication > bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code. > > Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo > with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to > stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message. > > *Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. * > > On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java >> and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE >> will most likely name Java *Programming Language of the Year* for 2015. >> (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.) >> >> It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android >> programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed >> iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and >> Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java >> seems to be well-suited. >> >> (I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe >> there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A >> clean, simple syntax is very, very important!) >> >> I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java >> cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on >> Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress. >> >> Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus >> on putting Pharo on the JVM? >> >

Dec. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] seeking your tutorials

by garduino

ok, thank! May be is SquareBracketAssociates/Magritte :) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/seeking-your-tutorials-tp4866274p4866729.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] seeking your tutorials

by stepharo

check on github squarebracket / magritte Le 11/12/15 22:24, garduino a Ã©crit : > stepharo wrote >> I have the magritte tutorial and we are writing a web tutorial covering >> Mongo and Seaside. > Does exist a new Magritte tutorial? Where? > > Thanks! > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/seeking-your-tutorials-tp4866274p4866671.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Dec. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero

Hello The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java. The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no phones nor phablets). Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero -----Mensaje original----- De: "Dimitris Chloupis" <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> Enviado: â12/â12/â2015 10:25 Para: "Any question about pharo is welcome" <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont even make the top 20. I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely alive. The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess. Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides to embrace JVM or JS as platforms. And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code. Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message. Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.) It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be well-suited. (I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple syntax is very, very important!) I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress. Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on putting Pharo on the JVM?

Dec. 12, 2015