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Re: Whats the easiest/cheapest way to run a Pharo web app in 2021?

by Christian Haider

Yes, this is my camp ð. Every layer or tool adds many cool features (their raison d'Ãªtre) which you donât need for the "easy" setup. You typically need only a handful of the configuration parameters at most (imagine PostgreSQL, Apache, Jenkins etc.). Yet, all the myriad of super-duper feature settings add to confusion and are nice traps for interesting bugs. The complexity of a system is probably exponential to the number of tools or layers... And each one of them wants to be updated... And each has its own documentation (which you have to read when you get unlucky) with its own conventions... No thanks. I try to keep my stack as simple as possible. Thatâs also a good reason for Smalltalk, because it makes it much easier to keep all pieces together. Happy hacking, Christian > -----UrsprÃ¼ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de <jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. April 2021 18:15 > An: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > Betreff: [Pharo-users] Re: Whats the easiest/cheapest way to run a Pharo > web app in 2021? > > Norbert, > > you nailed it ;-) Easy and cheap and lots of layers of magic infrastructure > nailed and hammered onto each other don't go well with each other. I am > still a fan of having some server - virtual or physical > - that I can reinstall from scratch and as little moving parts as possible on top > of that. I rather have a little collection of sheets on which I wrote down each > single step of installing what's needed and a good backup of ini files and > whatnot than a pile of "stuff" that makes things "easy". > > I know, that's so 90ies, but hey, we're using Smalltalk from the 70ies ;-) > > Joachim > > > > Am 13.04.21 um 18:09 schrieb Norbert Hartl: > > I read the title which contains âeasiest/cheapestâ and then you drop > > names âdockerâ, "CI which injectsâ and âstages" â¦ this invalidates at > > least âeasiestâ and maybe âcheapestâ as well. I think I missed the > > intent of this mail. So can you give a few more details otherwise it > > is hard to meet the âeasiest on this level of requirementsâ > > > > Norbert > > > >> Am 12.04.2021 um 10:36 schrieb Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works>: > >> > >> That is cheap 3e/m is definitely worth consideringâ¦ but I guess you do > have to take care of your own patching etc right (which isnât necessarily > horrible, but does require a bit of extra effort to track things). I was > interested in whether the next step up in the food chain using Docker images > that are hosted for you, might lessen the burden a bit? E.g. if your CI injects a > pharo image into the latest âsafeâ docker image from the community - then > hopefully you are insulated from all of this. It does look like this is becoming > a reality if that dockerize.io soln plays out (I got that working, its cheap - > however they havenât answered any of my email queriesâ¦ so I do wonder > how real it actually is). The fallback would definitely be something like > Hetzner or Digital Ocean I guess. > >> > >> Tim > >> > >>> On 12 Apr 2021, at 08:47, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> Am 12.04.2021 um 04:02 schrieb Jeff Gray <jeff(a)rogerthedog.com>: > >>>> > >>>> Considering easiest and cheapest, there's always self hosting, or > >>>> are you discounting that idea? > >>>> Most geeks have a bit of spare hardware laying around and broadband > >>>> up-speeds aren't too bad. > >>>> I'm guessing that if we are in the $5 a month ball park then we > >>>> aren't needing a guaranteed up time. > >>>> > >>> My cloud instance is 3â¬/month. With an additional 20% amount the > instance has a backup. And setting it up is way simpler then getting dynamic > DNS updates and all of that configured. Times have changed a bit. > >>> > >>> > >>> Norbert > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de > Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de > D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com > Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

April 13, 2021

Re: Whats the easiest/cheapest way to run a Pharo web app in 2021?

by jtuchel＠objektfabrik.de

Norbert, you nailed it ;-) Easy and cheap and lots of layers of magic infrastructure nailed and hammered onto each other don't go well with each other. I am still a fan of having some server - virtual or physical - that I can reinstall from scratch and as little moving parts as possible on top of that. I rather have a little collection of sheets on which I wrote down each single step of installing what's needed and a good backup of ini files and whatnot than a pile of "stuff" that makes things "easy". I know, that's so 90ies, but hey, we're using Smalltalk from the 70ies ;-) Joachim Am 13.04.21 um 18:09 schrieb Norbert Hartl: > I read the title which contains âeasiest/cheapestâ and then you drop names âdockerâ, "CI which injectsâ and âstages" â¦ this invalidates at least âeasiestâ and maybe âcheapestâ as well. I think I missed the intent of this mail. So can you give a few more details otherwise it is hard to meet the âeasiest on this level of requirementsâ > > Norbert > >> Am 12.04.2021 um 10:36 schrieb Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works>: >> >> That is cheap 3e/m is definitely worth consideringâ¦ but I guess you do have to take care of your own patching etc right (which isnât necessarily horrible, but does require a bit of extra effort to track things). I was interested in whether the next step up in the food chain using Docker images that are hosted for you, might lessen the burden a bit? E.g. if your CI injects a pharo image into the latest âsafeâ docker image from the community - then hopefully you are insulated from all of this. It does look like this is becoming a reality if that dockerize.io soln plays out (I got that working, its cheap - however they havenât answered any of my email queriesâ¦ so I do wonder how real it actually is). The fallback would definitely be something like Hetzner or Digital Ocean I guess. >> >> Tim >> >>> On 12 Apr 2021, at 08:47, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Am 12.04.2021 um 04:02 schrieb Jeff Gray <jeff(a)rogerthedog.com>: >>>> >>>> Considering easiest and cheapest, there's always self hosting, or are you >>>> discounting that idea? >>>> Most geeks have a bit of spare hardware laying around and broadband >>>> up-speeds aren't too bad. >>>> I'm guessing that if we are in the $5 a month ball park then we aren't >>>> needing a guaranteed up time. >>>> >>> My cloud instance is 3â¬/month. With an additional 20% amount the instance has a backup. And setting it up is way simpler then getting dynamic DNS updates and all of that configured. Times have changed a bit. >>> >>> >>> Norbert -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

April 13, 2021

Re: Whats the easiest/cheapest way to run a Pharo web app in 2021?

by Norbert Hartl

> Am 13.04.2021 um 01:11 schrieb Jeff Gray <jeff(a)rogerthedog.com>: > > LOL - Yes, time marches forward, and definitely an old dog :-) me, too ;) > That ( and some of the other services mentioned already) is pretty > inexpensive. > What storage do you get for your 3 euros? > It is 20B. Have a look at https://www.hetzner.com/cloud <https://www.hetzner.com/cloud> the CX11 instance. Is 2GB main memory, 1vCPU, 20GB disk space. Norbert > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

April 13, 2021

Re: Whats the easiest/cheapest way to run a Pharo web app in 2021?

by Norbert Hartl

I read the title which contains âeasiest/cheapestâ and then you drop names âdockerâ, "CI which injectsâ and âstages" â¦ this invalidates at least âeasiestâ and maybe âcheapestâ as well. I think I missed the intent of this mail. So can you give a few more details otherwise it is hard to meet the âeasiest on this level of requirementsâ Norbert > Am 12.04.2021 um 10:36 schrieb Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works>: > > That is cheap 3e/m is definitely worth consideringâ¦ but I guess you do have to take care of your own patching etc right (which isnât necessarily horrible, but does require a bit of extra effort to track things). I was interested in whether the next step up in the food chain using Docker images that are hosted for you, might lessen the burden a bit? E.g. if your CI injects a pharo image into the latest âsafeâ docker image from the community - then hopefully you are insulated from all of this. It does look like this is becoming a reality if that dockerize.io soln plays out (I got that working, its cheap - however they havenât answered any of my email queriesâ¦ so I do wonder how real it actually is). The fallback would definitely be something like Hetzner or Digital Ocean I guess. > > Tim > >> On 12 Apr 2021, at 08:47, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Am 12.04.2021 um 04:02 schrieb Jeff Gray <jeff(a)rogerthedog.com>: >>> >>> Considering easiest and cheapest, there's always self hosting, or are you >>> discounting that idea? >>> Most geeks have a bit of spare hardware laying around and broadband >>> up-speeds aren't too bad. >>> I'm guessing that if we are in the $5 a month ball park then we aren't >>> needing a guaranteed up time. >>> >> >> My cloud instance is 3â¬/month. With an additional 20% amount the instance has a backup. And setting it up is way simpler then getting dynamic DNS updates and all of that configured. Times have changed a bit. >> >> >> Norbert

April 13, 2021

Re: Whats the easiest/cheapest way to run a Pharo web app in 2021?

by Esteban Maringolo

I really like the Dockerize option, seems pretty straight forward, I wonder how you could manage volumes for DB containers, static assets and how flexible/configurable is the routing/scaling. Unless, as it seems, everything is stateless there. Esteban A. Maringolo On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 8:36 AM Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > These are some useful inputs - its definitely getting to a place where a > little pocket money gives you a real environment to hobby deploy to (even > professionally if you are careful i guess). > > Sven - presumably this Graviton setup is an EC2 instance - and so you > patch your own OS and provide any additional pieces like SSL cert etc > right? (which I know you are ace at doing - but I find that that I > painfully learn how to do it one month, and then 6 months later have to > relearn it all again). > > So I'm interested in how reasonable it is to live higher up the food chain > - where it seems that a Docker image insulates you (in theory) from a lot > of this. Is this true - and are options like dockerize.io (or others that > perhaps I am missing) viable options for the time constrained? > > (really appreciate all the input in this thread everyone - its very > instructive) > > Tim > > On Tue, 13 Apr 2021, at 7:43 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > > Although my main instance is on Digital Ocean, I have a test/play > > instance on AWS. > > > > This is really hip & cool: it is an AWS Graviton 2 instance (Amazon's > > own ARM64 CPU, much like Apple Silicon) [ > > https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/graviton/ ]. I run a small t4g.micro > > instance, 1GB RAM, 8GB Disk. > > > > Last bill was just USD 2.89 which is crazy cheap for a full month 24/7. > > > > Thanks to the fact that Pharo has a full JIT VM on ARM64, this is crazy > > fast as well. > > > > I am sure that the reason this is so cheap is the fact that it is super > > efficient. > > > > You can try this easily for yourself. > > > > > On 13 Apr 2021, at 01:57, Esteban Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > What do you use that's so cheap/affordable? > > > > > > El lun., 12 de abril de 2021 04:48, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> > escribiÃ³: > > > > > > > > > > Am 12.04.2021 um 04:02 schrieb Jeff Gray <jeff(a)rogerthedog.com>: > > > > > > > > Considering easiest and cheapest, there's always self hosting, or > are you > > > > discounting that idea? > > > > Most geeks have a bit of spare hardware laying around and broadband > > > > up-speeds aren't too bad. > > > > I'm guessing that if we are in the $5 a month ball park then we > aren't > > > > needing a guaranteed up time. > > > > > > > > > > My cloud instance is 3â¬/month. With an additional 20% amount the > instance has a backup. And setting it up is way simpler then getting > dynamic DNS updates and all of that configured. Times have changed a bit. > > > > > > > > > Norbert > > >

April 13, 2021

Re: Whats the easiest/cheapest way to run a Pharo web app in 2021?

by Tim Mackinnon

These are some useful inputs - its definitely getting to a place where a little pocket money gives you a real environment to hobby deploy to (even professionally if you are careful i guess). Sven - presumably this Graviton setup is an EC2 instance - and so you patch your own OS and provide any additional pieces like SSL cert etc right? (which I know you are ace at doing - but I find that that I painfully learn how to do it one month, and then 6 months later have to relearn it all again). So I'm interested in how reasonable it is to live higher up the food chain - where it seems that a Docker image insulates you (in theory) from a lot of this. Is this true - and are options like dockerize.io (or others that perhaps I am missing) viable options for the time constrained? (really appreciate all the input in this thread everyone - its very instructive) Tim On Tue, 13 Apr 2021, at 7:43 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > Although my main instance is on Digital Ocean, I have a test/play > instance on AWS. > > This is really hip & cool: it is an AWS Graviton 2 instance (Amazon's > own ARM64 CPU, much like Apple Silicon) [ > https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/graviton/ ]. I run a small t4g.micro > instance, 1GB RAM, 8GB Disk. > > Last bill was just USD 2.89 which is crazy cheap for a full month 24/7. > > Thanks to the fact that Pharo has a full JIT VM on ARM64, this is crazy > fast as well. > > I am sure that the reason this is so cheap is the fact that it is super > efficient. > > You can try this easily for yourself. > > > On 13 Apr 2021, at 01:57, Esteban Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > What do you use that's so cheap/affordable? > > > > El lun., 12 de abril de 2021 04:48, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> escribiÃ³: > > > > > > > Am 12.04.2021 um 04:02 schrieb Jeff Gray <jeff(a)rogerthedog.com>: > > > > > > Considering easiest and cheapest, there's always self hosting, or are you > > > discounting that idea? > > > Most geeks have a bit of spare hardware laying around and broadband > > > up-speeds aren't too bad. > > > I'm guessing that if we are in the $5 a month ball park then we aren't > > > needing a guaranteed up time. > > > > > > > My cloud instance is 3â¬/month. With an additional 20% amount the instance has a backup. And setting it up is way simpler then getting dynamic DNS updates and all of that configured. Times have changed a bit. > > > > > > Norbert >

April 13, 2021

Re: Whats the easiest/cheapest way to run a Pharo web app in 2021?

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Although my main instance is on Digital Ocean, I have a test/play instance on AWS. This is really hip & cool: it is an AWS Graviton 2 instance (Amazon's own ARM64 CPU, much like Apple Silicon) [ https://aws.amazon.com/ec2/graviton/ ]. I run a small t4g.micro instance, 1GB RAM, 8GB Disk. Last bill was just USD 2.89 which is crazy cheap for a full month 24/7. Thanks to the fact that Pharo has a full JIT VM on ARM64, this is crazy fast as well. I am sure that the reason this is so cheap is the fact that it is super efficient. You can try this easily for yourself. > On 13 Apr 2021, at 01:57, Esteban Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > What do you use that's so cheap/affordable? > > El lun., 12 de abril de 2021 04:48, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> escribiÃ³: > > > > Am 12.04.2021 um 04:02 schrieb Jeff Gray <jeff(a)rogerthedog.com>: > > > > Considering easiest and cheapest, there's always self hosting, or are you > > discounting that idea? > > Most geeks have a bit of spare hardware laying around and broadband > > up-speeds aren't too bad. > > I'm guessing that if we are in the $5 a month ball park then we aren't > > needing a guaranteed up time. > > > > My cloud instance is 3â¬/month. With an additional 20% amount the instance has a backup. And setting it up is way simpler then getting dynamic DNS updates and all of that configured. Times have changed a bit. > > > Norbert

April 13, 2021

Re: Whats the easiest/cheapest way to run a Pharo web app in 2021?

by Esteban Maringolo

What do you use that's so cheap/affordable? El lun., 12 de abril de 2021 04:48, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> escribiÃ³: > > > > Am 12.04.2021 um 04:02 schrieb Jeff Gray <jeff(a)rogerthedog.com>: > > > > Considering easiest and cheapest, there's always self hosting, or are you > > discounting that idea? > > Most geeks have a bit of spare hardware laying around and broadband > > up-speeds aren't too bad. > > I'm guessing that if we are in the $5 a month ball park then we aren't > > needing a guaranteed up time. > > > > My cloud instance is 3â¬/month. With an additional 20% amount the instance > has a backup. And setting it up is way simpler then getting dynamic DNS > updates and all of that configured. Times have changed a bit. > > > Norbert

April 12, 2021

Re: Whats the easiest/cheapest way to run a Pharo web app in 2021?

by Jeff Gray

LOL - Yes, time marches forward, and definitely an old dog :-) That ( and some of the other services mentioned already) is pretty inexpensive. What storage do you get for your 3 euros? -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

April 12, 2021

Re: Problem with Pharo 9 - repositories missing

by David Pennington

That worked perfectly. I copied the three files across, created a new VM, copied my database and (apart from a single issue) everything worked fine. Thank you so much for your help. It never occurred to me that this would be possible. There is one big difference between Windows and the Mac but I will post that as a separate item. Again, many thanks. If you are interested, check out IPMS Clacton Web Site <http://www.ipms-clacton.org.uk/> and browse around David BTW, avid user of STON - crucial addition to my database. > On 12 Apr 2021, at 07:56, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > David, > > Since you have so much trouble building on Windows, I would suggest building a deployment image on macOS and then copy that over to Windows (*.image *.changes *.sources), install a VM on Windows, and run headless with a startup.st script. > > Sven > >> On 11 Apr 2021, at 13:43, <david(a)totallyobjects.com> <david(a)totallyobjects.com> wrote: >> >> Hi everyone. >> >> I have a simple talk, or so I thought. I am trying to port a Mac Pharo/Seaside project to either a Windows 2012 server or to a Windows 10 laptop. I have set up my git credentials and that all works fine. However, when I install either 8.0 or 9.0 on my Windows 10 laptop it shows he following >> Repositories -- status >> Pharo Local repository missing >> Pharo-spec2 Local repository missing >> Pharo-newtools Local repository missing >> Iceberg Local repository missing >> Libgit-pharo-bindings Local repository missing >> tonel Local repository missing >> >> What on earth is going on here as installing Pharo on my Mac was seamless. I have to get the project onto a Windows machine as these are the only servers that I have. I really canât be this difficult, can it? >> >> How do I get out of this mess, given that that is a clean install? >> David >> Totally Objects

April 12, 2021