September 2019 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

The post was deleted not because of the CoC, but because of an unrespectful treatment of one of the members of the community, as the conversation here shows. And in fact what this probe that we care as a community for the well being of the community and its members, specially when complex matters are addressed, and not only for commits or some future possible porting and that such promises or technical prowess don't entitled anyone to insult others. Cheers, Offray On 19/09/19 10:06 a.Â m., Eugen Leitl via Pharo-users wrote:

Sept. 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by Eugen Leitl

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 08:25:47AM -0500, Offray Vladimir Luna C??rdenas wrote: > I think that the comment was referred to the comment made on the PR (not > on this list) that was insulting Serge (which I will not repeat). It has Let's see, I've posted one email to this list describing the dangers of abusing CoCs and one post to GitHub describing the motivations of people who introduce CoCs, and immediately get banned on GitHub from Pharo citing this very CoC (which is apparently now already in force, and is already controlling the discussion of this particular CoC, am I allowed to call this stalinist or kafkaeske, or is this already covered by the blanket ban?). I'm getting called a troll and a nobody in public by members of the project, incidentally thus violating the CoC twice, which is, of course, allowed by the liberal interpretation of what and who is considered abusive. Thank you for instantly proving my points far better than I ever could. > been deleted now and only Stephan's response remains[1]. As you can see > is addressing someone different, who has no contributions and no name > and seemed to create the account just to insult and you can see by I've resuscitated that GitHub account a couple years ago for work uses. It will never see content published there since Microsoft purchased GitHub last year. I've joined the pharo-users@ list a few days ago since I'm looking into porting to Pharo OpenCroquet/OpenCobalt project which is being currently resuscitated on Squeak. I commented on the CoC issue since I consider project governance and their failures as very important. > his/her empty account without any info and any contributions[2]. > > [1] https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637#issuecomment-532815478 > [2] https://github.com/eleitl > > So, in my interpretation, Stephan's comment was referred to the user at > [2] and Esteban warning was referred to the closing of the issue because > of it, so the "you" in the warning was not the singular "you", but the > plural one. Because conversation has been split in two places, these > mistakes can be done. I think that you raised a valid concern in a > civilized manner, are a recognized member of the community and did not I'm sorry, I don't seem to find a "recognized" anywhere in the CoC https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md Is this something you're going to include in later revisions of it, or is this up to interpretation? > insulted Serge, so the comments were not addressing you. > > This can be a very sensible approach, as the discussion on the list so > far have shown, so the more clarity we can have to elevate the > conversation and be respectful with the participants, the better. Let's see, my porting project is dead, but you've got an elevated conversation, and can be all respectful towards each other. One has to have priorities. All the best of luck to the Pharo community. You're going to need it. > Cheers, > > Offray

Sept. 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by PBKResearch

Well , if I was too touchy, Iâm sorry. I accept the clarification. However, I am still no clearer about the Code of Conduct. It is still there on Github. Is it in effect as the official Code for the Pharo community, or is it not? My request in my first post today was for someone, on behalf of the board, to tell us. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Esteban Lorenzano Sent: 19 September 2019 14:49 To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct Offray is right. And no, I was not referring to you but in general :) Esteban On 19 Sep 2019, at 15:32, PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk <mailto:peter@pbkresearch.co.uk> > wrote: Offray You may be right, though I donât think so. But âYou have been warnedâ was aimed at me; Iâm sure of that. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org> > On Behalf Of Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas Sent: 19 September 2019 14:26 To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct Peter, I think that the comment was referred to the comment made on the PR (not on this list) that was insulting Serge (which I will not repeat). It has been deleted now and only Stephan's response remains[1]. As you can see is addressing someone different, who has no contributions and no name and seemed to create the account just to insult and you can see by his/her empty account without any info and any contributions[2]. [1] <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637#issuecomment-532815478> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637#issuecomment-532815478 [2] <https://github.com/eleitl> https://github.com/eleitl So, in my interpretation, Stephan's comment was referred to the user at [2] and Esteban warning was referred to the closing of the issue because of it, so the "you" in the warning was not the singular "you", but the plural one. Because conversation has been split in two places, these mistakes can be done. I think that you raised a valid concern in a civilized manner, are a recognized member of the community and did not insulted Serge, so the comments were not addressing you. This can be a very sensible approach, as the discussion on the list so far have shown, so the more clarity we can have to elevate the conversation and be respectful with the participants, the better. Cheers, Offray On 19/09/19 8:02 a. m., PBKResearch wrote: I think the comments about âsomeone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or just a trollâ are directed at me. My e-mail address is based on the trading name I used at the time I was doing consulting work; my actual name is Peter Kenny, and I use it to sign everything I post in this forum. I have no repositories, because the only code I write is of no general interest. As a member of the community, I was invited by Stephane Ducasse to work up a post I had written to help someone into a pamphlet on web scraping; I think that is still available in Pharo publications. So I am not a troll; I am an elderly but still active user of Pharo, and concerned about developments. There is an English saying about pots and kettles, which Mr Lorenzano might consider before making personal attacks on me. I did not say anything insulting about Serge Stinckwich. I asked whether he acted with authority when he posted the code, because I genuinely donât know what official position he has in the Pharo world. I still donât know whether the code is in effect as a result of being posted. âYou have been warnedâ seems like a threat. I do not like being threatened. If comments here, which are relevant to the topic and expressed in moderate language, are no longer welcome, I shall absent myself without waiting to be banned. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org> <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Esteban Lorenzano Sent: 19 September 2019 12:49 To: Any question about pharo is welcome <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct On 19 Sep 2019, at 12:22, PBKResearch < <mailto:peter@pbkresearch.co.uk> peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote: I donât think this conversation can be closed while things are in the present unclear situation. The github entry at <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md is still there, and has been there since last May. The github discussion on <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637 was abruptly closed by Stephane Ducasse, after some intemperate comments about Serge Stinckwich. Yes it can be closed. As we will close ANY thread/issue/PR that directly insults one of the members of the community. Even more important: We can close it if thread has been highjacked by someone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or just a troll. Members can do things right or wrong, as they are human beings. But emitting opinions in the way they were emitted about what they did is a no-go. So yes, you can discuss anything you want. But I personally will moderate any thread that does not discusses things in a civilised way. So you have been warned :) Esteban PS: I will also remember you that the purpose of this community is to make Pharo a great development environment. And we are all here because we all pursue that. We create a software that is open source and wants to have some social value added. This is therefore the only place questions can be asked. We now know that Serge posted the Code without prior discussion with the board. Did he have authority to do this on behalf of the Pharo community? Does the fact that he did so mean it is officially adopted by the community â not just for this mailing list, but for all Pharo activities? If Serge did not have authority, shouldnât it just be removed, at least until the board have discussed it? The PR mentioned above was a proposal by James Foster that, if we need a code of conduct, it should be the ACM code. The PR has now been closed. Does that mean that Jamesâs proposal has been rejected? If so, why? If the conversation is closed now, that means that we are tacitly accepting that the code is there and in force, and also tacitly accepting how it got there. What is necessary is for the board collectively, or someone representing the board, to tell us what the situation is and what is going to happen next â preferably with justifications. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users < <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org> pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Steve Quezadas Sent: 19 September 2019 03:35 To: Any question about pharo is welcome < <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] R: Code of Conduct Yeah, I agree. Why is this even here? The thing I like about this maillist is that its very community oriented and everyone here helps each other. It's devoid of all the political-soapbox nonsense that I would find on, say, facebook. Which is why I don't deal with that platform anymore. And most of this is common sense anyway. Yeah, don't harass people and make fun of them or whatever, Like most people on this list doesn't already know that. Im very vocal about certain political and social opinions, am not ashamed about my opinions, am open about it, is currently "unpopular" but don't discuss them here because it's offtopic and I don't want to piss off people in any event. I don't want it turning into another facebook basically. I think we should all close this conversation, it's offtopic and not relevant to any problems this list has in any meaningful way. - Steve On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kasper Ãsterbye < <mailto:kasper.osterbye@gmail.com> kasper.osterbye(a)gmail.com> wrote: When I read the Code of conduct which is part of Pharo, my reaction was "OK, I don't expect to run into trouble over that one, so no worries". After having read the discussion here I would rather it was not there. -- Kasper

Sept. 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by Ben Coman

>> On 19 Sep 2019, at 15:32, PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote >> You may be right, though I donât think so. But âYou have been warnedâ was aimed at me; Iâm sure of that. > > On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 21:50, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Offray is right. > And no, I was not referring to you but in general :) > Misinterpretation is a risk of a low-bandwidth communication channel like email and demonstrates the risk of a CoC being weighted towards first strike punitive action. I do think having a CoC is useful to provide a baseline (and also in today's world not having one can be a troublesome vacuum). I like GoLang's adaption (https://golang.org/conduct) with the priority of goals spelled out in the "About" introduction, and the way it replaces the "Enforcement" section by "Conflict Resolution" The Linux CoC sidebar has some good points ( https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/process/code-of-conduct-interpretati… ) Maybe our CoC could be as simple as... (https://dart.dev/code-of-conduct) cheers -ben

Sept. 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by Esteban Lorenzano

Offray is right. And no, I was not referring to you but in general :) Esteban > On 19 Sep 2019, at 15:32, PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote: > > Offray > > You may be right, though I donât think so. But âYou have been warnedâ was aimed at me; Iâm sure of that. > > Peter Kenny > > From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas > Sent: 19 September 2019 14:26 > To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct > > Peter, > I think that the comment was referred to the comment made on the PR (not on this list) that was insulting Serge (which I will not repeat). It has been deleted now and only Stephan's response remains[1]. As you can see is addressing someone different, who has no contributions and no name and seemed to create the account just to insult and you can see by his/her empty account without any info and any contributions[2]. > > [1] https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637#issuecomment-532815478 <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637#issuecomment-532815478> > [2] https://github.com/eleitl <https://github.com/eleitl> > So, in my interpretation, Stephan's comment was referred to the user at [2] and Esteban warning was referred to the closing of the issue because of it, so the "you" in the warning was not the singular "you", but the plural one. Because conversation has been split in two places, these mistakes can be done. I think that you raised a valid concern in a civilized manner, are a recognized member of the community and did not insulted Serge, so the comments were not addressing you. > This can be a very sensible approach, as the discussion on the list so far have shown, so the more clarity we can have to elevate the conversation and be respectful with the participants, the better. > Cheers, > Offray > On 19/09/19 8:02 a. m., PBKResearch wrote: >> I think the comments about âsomeone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or just a trollâ are directed at me. My e-mail address is based on the trading name I used at the time I was doing consulting work; my actual name is Peter Kenny, and I use it to sign everything I post in this forum. I have no repositories, because the only code I write is of no general interest. As a member of the community, I was invited by Stephane Ducasse to work up a post I had written to help someone into a pamphlet on web scraping; I think that is still available in Pharo publications. So I am not a troll; I am an elderly but still active user of Pharo, and concerned about developments. There is an English saying about pots and kettles, which Mr Lorenzano might consider before making personal attacks on me. >> >> I did not say anything insulting about Serge Stinckwich. I asked whether he acted with authority when he posted the code, because I genuinely donât know what official position he has in the Pharo world. I still donât know whether the code is in effect as a result of being posted. >> >> âYou have been warnedâ seems like a threat. I do not like being threatened. If comments here, which are relevant to the topic and expressed in moderate language, are no longer welcome, I shall absent myself without waiting to be banned. >> >> Peter Kenny >> >> From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Esteban Lorenzano >> Sent: 19 September 2019 12:49 >> To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct >> >> >> >> >> >>> On 19 Sep 2019, at 12:22, PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk <mailto:peter@pbkresearch.co.uk>> wrote: >>> >>> I donât think this conversation can be closed while things are in the present unclear situation. The github entry at https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md> is still there, and has been there since last May. The github discussion on https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637 <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637> was abruptly closed by Stephane Ducasse, after some intemperate comments about Serge Stinckwich. >> >> Yes it can be closed. >> As we will close ANY thread/issue/PR that directly insults one of the members of the community. >> Even more important: We can close it if thread has been highjacked by someone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or just a troll. >> >> Members can do things right or wrong, as they are human beings. But emitting opinions in the way they were emitted about what they did is a no-go. >> >> So yes, you can discuss anything you want. >> But I personally will moderate any thread that does not discusses things in a civilised way. >> >> So you have been warned :) >> >> Esteban >> >> PS: I will also remember you that the purpose of this community is to make Pharo a great development environment. >> And we are all here because we all pursue that. >> We create a software that is open source and wants to have some social value added. >> >>> This is therefore the only place questions can be asked. >>> >>> We now know that Serge posted the Code without prior discussion with the board. Did he have authority to do this on behalf of the Pharo community? Does the fact that he did so mean it is officially adopted by the community â not just for this mailing list, but for all Pharo activities? If Serge did not have authority, shouldnât it just be removed, at least until the board have discussed it? >>> >>> The PR mentioned above was a proposal by James Foster that, if we need a code of conduct, it should be the ACM code. The PR has now been closed. Does that mean that Jamesâs proposal has been rejected? If so, why? >>> >>> If the conversation is closed now, that means that we are tacitly accepting that the code is there and in force, and also tacitly accepting how it got there. What is necessary is for the board collectively, or someone representing the board, to tell us what the situation is and what is going to happen next â preferably with justifications. >>> >>> Peter Kenny >>> >>> From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org>> On Behalf Of Steve Quezadas >>> Sent: 19 September 2019 03:35 >>> To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>> >>> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] R: Code of Conduct >>> >>> Yeah, I agree. Why is this even here? The thing I like about this maillist is that its very community oriented and everyone here helps each other. It's devoid of all the political-soapbox nonsense that I would find on, say, facebook. Which is why I don't deal with that platform anymore. >>> >>> And most of this is common sense anyway. Yeah, don't harass people and make fun of them or whatever, Like most people on this list doesn't already know that. Im very vocal about certain political and social opinions, am not ashamed about my opinions, am open about it, is currently "unpopular" but don't discuss them here because it's offtopic and I don't want to piss off people in any event. I don't want it turning into another facebook basically. >>> >>> I think we should all close this conversation, it's offtopic and not relevant to any problems this list has in any meaningful way. >>> >>> - Steve >>> >>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kasper Ãsterbye <kasper.osterbye(a)gmail.com <mailto:kasper.osterbye@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> When I read the Code of conduct which is part of Pharo, my reaction was "OK, I don't expect to run into trouble over that one, so no worries". >>>> >>>> After having read the discussion here I would rather it was not there. >>>> >>>> -- Kasper >>>> >> >>

Sept. 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by Esteban Maringolo

Peter, I also understand that Esteban Lorenzano didn't aim the comment at you, and there was a language mismatch in the tone or intention of the last sentence. Let's get back to the discussion of the CoC (if something else must be discussed) and avoid the "you said"/"he said" kind of side-debate that makes us lose focus. Regards, Regards, Esteban A. Maringolo On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:33 AM PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote: > > Offray > > > > You may be right, though I donât think so. But âYou have been warnedâ was aimed at me; Iâm sure of that. > > > > Peter Kenny > > > > From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas > Sent: 19 September 2019 14:26 > To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct > > > > Peter, > > I think that the comment was referred to the comment made on the PR (not on this list) that was insulting Serge (which I will not repeat). It has been deleted now and only Stephan's response remains[1]. As you can see is addressing someone different, who has no contributions and no name and seemed to create the account just to insult and you can see by his/her empty account without any info and any contributions[2]. > > [1] https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637#issuecomment-532815478 > [2] https://github.com/eleitl > > So, in my interpretation, Stephan's comment was referred to the user at [2] and Esteban warning was referred to the closing of the issue because of it, so the "you" in the warning was not the singular "you", but the plural one. Because conversation has been split in two places, these mistakes can be done. I think that you raised a valid concern in a civilized manner, are a recognized member of the community and did not insulted Serge, so the comments were not addressing you. > > This can be a very sensible approach, as the discussion on the list so far have shown, so the more clarity we can have to elevate the conversation and be respectful with the participants, the better. > > Cheers, > > Offray > > On 19/09/19 8:02 a. m., PBKResearch wrote: > > I think the comments about âsomeone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or just a trollâ are directed at me. My e-mail address is based on the trading name I used at the time I was doing consulting work; my actual name is Peter Kenny, and I use it to sign everything I post in this forum. I have no repositories, because the only code I write is of no general interest. As a member of the community, I was invited by Stephane Ducasse to work up a post I had written to help someone into a pamphlet on web scraping; I think that is still available in Pharo publications. So I am not a troll; I am an elderly but still active user of Pharo, and concerned about developments. There is an English saying about pots and kettles, which Mr Lorenzano might consider before making personal attacks on me. > > > > I did not say anything insulting about Serge Stinckwich. I asked whether he acted with authority when he posted the code, because I genuinely donât know what official position he has in the Pharo world. I still donât know whether the code is in effect as a result of being posted. > > > > âYou have been warnedâ seems like a threat. I do not like being threatened. If comments here, which are relevant to the topic and expressed in moderate language, are no longer welcome, I shall absent myself without waiting to be banned. > > > > Peter Kenny > > > > From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Esteban Lorenzano > Sent: 19 September 2019 12:49 > To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct > > > > > > > > > On 19 Sep 2019, at 12:22, PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote: > > > > I donât think this conversation can be closed while things are in the present unclear situation. The github entry at https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md is still there, and has been there since last May. The github discussion on https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637 was abruptly closed by Stephane Ducasse, after some intemperate comments about Serge Stinckwich. > > > > Yes it can be closed. > > As we will close ANY thread/issue/PR that directly insults one of the members of the community. > > Even more important: We can close it if thread has been highjacked by someone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or just a troll. > > > > Members can do things right or wrong, as they are human beings. But emitting opinions in the way they were emitted about what they did is a no-go. > > > > So yes, you can discuss anything you want. > > But I personally will moderate any thread that does not discusses things in a civilised way. > > > > So you have been warned :) > > > > Esteban > > > > PS: I will also remember you that the purpose of this community is to make Pharo a great development environment. > > And we are all here because we all pursue that. > > We create a software that is open source and wants to have some social value added. > > > > This is therefore the only place questions can be asked. > > > > We now know that Serge posted the Code without prior discussion with the board. Did he have authority to do this on behalf of the Pharo community? Does the fact that he did so mean it is officially adopted by the community â not just for this mailing list, but for all Pharo activities? If Serge did not have authority, shouldnât it just be removed, at least until the board have discussed it? > > > > The PR mentioned above was a proposal by James Foster that, if we need a code of conduct, it should be the ACM code. The PR has now been closed. Does that mean that Jamesâs proposal has been rejected? If so, why? > > > > If the conversation is closed now, that means that we are tacitly accepting that the code is there and in force, and also tacitly accepting how it got there. What is necessary is for the board collectively, or someone representing the board, to tell us what the situation is and what is going to happen next â preferably with justifications. > > > > Peter Kenny > > > > From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Steve Quezadas > Sent: 19 September 2019 03:35 > To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] R: Code of Conduct > > > > Yeah, I agree. Why is this even here? The thing I like about this maillist is that its very community oriented and everyone here helps each other. It's devoid of all the political-soapbox nonsense that I would find on, say, facebook. Which is why I don't deal with that platform anymore. > > > > And most of this is common sense anyway. Yeah, don't harass people and make fun of them or whatever, Like most people on this list doesn't already know that. Im very vocal about certain political and social opinions, am not ashamed about my opinions, am open about it, is currently "unpopular" but don't discuss them here because it's offtopic and I don't want to piss off people in any event. I don't want it turning into another facebook basically. > > > > I think we should all close this conversation, it's offtopic and not relevant to any problems this list has in any meaningful way. > > > > - Steve > > > > On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kasper Ãsterbye <kasper.osterbye(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > When I read the Code of conduct which is part of Pharo, my reaction was "OK, I don't expect to run into trouble over that one, so no worries". > > After having read the discussion here I would rather it was not there. > > -- Kasper > >

Sept. 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by PBKResearch

Offray You may be right, though I donât think so. But âYou have been warnedâ was aimed at me; Iâm sure of that. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas Sent: 19 September 2019 14:26 To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct Peter, I think that the comment was referred to the comment made on the PR (not on this list) that was insulting Serge (which I will not repeat). It has been deleted now and only Stephan's response remains[1]. As you can see is addressing someone different, who has no contributions and no name and seemed to create the account just to insult and you can see by his/her empty account without any info and any contributions[2]. [1] https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637#issuecomment-532815478 [2] https://github.com/eleitl So, in my interpretation, Stephan's comment was referred to the user at [2] and Esteban warning was referred to the closing of the issue because of it, so the "you" in the warning was not the singular "you", but the plural one. Because conversation has been split in two places, these mistakes can be done. I think that you raised a valid concern in a civilized manner, are a recognized member of the community and did not insulted Serge, so the comments were not addressing you. This can be a very sensible approach, as the discussion on the list so far have shown, so the more clarity we can have to elevate the conversation and be respectful with the participants, the better. Cheers, Offray On 19/09/19 8:02 a. m., PBKResearch wrote: I think the comments about âsomeone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or just a trollâ are directed at me. My e-mail address is based on the trading name I used at the time I was doing consulting work; my actual name is Peter Kenny, and I use it to sign everything I post in this forum. I have no repositories, because the only code I write is of no general interest. As a member of the community, I was invited by Stephane Ducasse to work up a post I had written to help someone into a pamphlet on web scraping; I think that is still available in Pharo publications. So I am not a troll; I am an elderly but still active user of Pharo, and concerned about developments. There is an English saying about pots and kettles, which Mr Lorenzano might consider before making personal attacks on me. I did not say anything insulting about Serge Stinckwich. I asked whether he acted with authority when he posted the code, because I genuinely donât know what official position he has in the Pharo world. I still donât know whether the code is in effect as a result of being posted. âYou have been warnedâ seems like a threat. I do not like being threatened. If comments here, which are relevant to the topic and expressed in moderate language, are no longer welcome, I shall absent myself without waiting to be banned. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org> <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Esteban Lorenzano Sent: 19 September 2019 12:49 To: Any question about pharo is welcome <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct On 19 Sep 2019, at 12:22, PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk <mailto:peter@pbkresearch.co.uk> > wrote: I donât think this conversation can be closed while things are in the present unclear situation. The github entry at <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md is still there, and has been there since last May. The github discussion on <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637 was abruptly closed by Stephane Ducasse, after some intemperate comments about Serge Stinckwich. Yes it can be closed. As we will close ANY thread/issue/PR that directly insults one of the members of the community. Even more important: We can close it if thread has been highjacked by someone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or just a troll. Members can do things right or wrong, as they are human beings. But emitting opinions in the way they were emitted about what they did is a no-go. So yes, you can discuss anything you want. But I personally will moderate any thread that does not discusses things in a civilised way. So you have been warned :) Esteban PS: I will also remember you that the purpose of this community is to make Pharo a great development environment. And we are all here because we all pursue that. We create a software that is open source and wants to have some social value added. This is therefore the only place questions can be asked. We now know that Serge posted the Code without prior discussion with the board. Did he have authority to do this on behalf of the Pharo community? Does the fact that he did so mean it is officially adopted by the community â not just for this mailing list, but for all Pharo activities? If Serge did not have authority, shouldnât it just be removed, at least until the board have discussed it? The PR mentioned above was a proposal by James Foster that, if we need a code of conduct, it should be the ACM code. The PR has now been closed. Does that mean that Jamesâs proposal has been rejected? If so, why? If the conversation is closed now, that means that we are tacitly accepting that the code is there and in force, and also tacitly accepting how it got there. What is necessary is for the board collectively, or someone representing the board, to tell us what the situation is and what is going to happen next â preferably with justifications. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users < <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org> pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Steve Quezadas Sent: 19 September 2019 03:35 To: Any question about pharo is welcome < <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] R: Code of Conduct Yeah, I agree. Why is this even here? The thing I like about this maillist is that its very community oriented and everyone here helps each other. It's devoid of all the political-soapbox nonsense that I would find on, say, facebook. Which is why I don't deal with that platform anymore. And most of this is common sense anyway. Yeah, don't harass people and make fun of them or whatever, Like most people on this list doesn't already know that. Im very vocal about certain political and social opinions, am not ashamed about my opinions, am open about it, is currently "unpopular" but don't discuss them here because it's offtopic and I don't want to piss off people in any event. I don't want it turning into another facebook basically. I think we should all close this conversation, it's offtopic and not relevant to any problems this list has in any meaningful way. - Steve On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kasper Ãsterbye < <mailto:kasper.osterbye@gmail.com> kasper.osterbye(a)gmail.com> wrote: When I read the Code of conduct which is part of Pharo, my reaction was "OK, I don't expect to run into trouble over that one, so no worries". After having read the discussion here I would rather it was not there. -- Kasper

Sept. 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Peter, I think that the comment was referred to the comment made on the PR (not on this list) that was insulting Serge (which I will not repeat). It has been deleted now and only Stephan's response remains[1]. As you can see is addressing someone different, who has no contributions and no name and seemed to create the account just to insult and you can see by his/her empty account without any info and any contributions[2]. [1] https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637#issuecomment-532815478 [2] https://github.com/eleitl So, in my interpretation, Stephan's comment was referred to the user at [2] and Esteban warning was referred to the closing of the issue because of it, so the "you" in the warning was not the singular "you", but the plural one. Because conversation has been split in two places, these mistakes can be done. I think that you raised a valid concern in a civilized manner, are a recognized member of the community and did not insulted Serge, so the comments were not addressing you. This can be a very sensible approach, as the discussion on the list so far have shown, so the more clarity we can have to elevate the conversation and be respectful with the participants, the better. Cheers, Offray On 19/09/19 8:02 a.Â m., PBKResearch wrote: > > I think the comments about âsomeone that has no name, no repositories, > not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or > just a trollâ are directed at me. My e-mail address is based on the > trading name I used at the time I was doing consulting work; my actual > name is Peter Kenny, and I use it to sign everything I post in this > forum. I have no repositories, because the only code I write is of no > general interest. As a member of the community, I was invited by > Stephane Ducasse to work up a post I had written to help someone into > a pamphlet on web scraping; I think that is still available in Pharo > publications. So I am not a troll; I am an elderly but still active > user of Pharo, and concerned about developments. There is an English > saying about pots and kettles, which Mr Lorenzano might consider > before making personal attacks on me. > > Â > > I did not say anything insulting about Serge Stinckwich. I asked > whether he acted with authority when he posted the code, because I > genuinely donât know what official position he has in the Pharo world. > I still donât know whether the code is in effect as a result of being > posted. > > Â > > âYou have been warnedâ seems like a threat. I do not like being > threatened. If comments here, which are relevant to the topic and > expressed in moderate language, are no longer welcome, I shall absent > myself without waiting to be banned. > > Â > > Peter Kenny > > Â > > *From:*Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> *On Behalf Of > *Esteban Lorenzano > *Sent:* 19 September 2019 12:49 > *To:* Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct > > Â > > Â > > > > On 19 Sep 2019, at 12:22, PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk > <mailto:peter@pbkresearch.co.uk>> wrote: > > Â > > I donât think this conversation can be closed while things are in > the present unclear situation. The github entry > atÂ https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.mdÂ is > still there, and has been there since last May. The github > discussion onÂ https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637Â was > abruptly closed by Stephane Ducasse, after some intemperate > comments about Serge Stinckwich. > > Â > > Yes it can be closed.Â > > As we will close ANY thread/issue/PR that directly insults one of the > members of the community.Â > > Even more important: We can close it if thread has been highjacked by > someone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you > think is a real member of the community or just a troll. > > Â > > Members can do things right or wrong, as they are human beings. But > emitting opinions in the way they were emitted about what they did is > a no-go.Â > > Â > > So yes, you can discuss anything you want.Â > > But I personally will moderate any thread that does not discusses > things in a civilised way. > > Â > > So you have been warned :) > > Â > > Esteban > > Â > > PS: I will also remember you that the purpose of this community is to > make Pharo a great development environment.Â > > And we are all here because we all pursue that. > > Â We create a software that is open source and wants to have some > social value added. > > Â > > This is therefore the only place questions can be asked. > > Â > > We now know that Serge posted the Code without prior discussion > with the board. Did he have authority to do this on behalf of the > Pharo community? Does the fact that he did so mean it is > officially adopted by the community â not just for this mailing > list, but for all Pharo activities? If Serge did not have > authority, shouldnât it just be removed, at least until the board > have discussed it? > > Â > > The PR mentioned above was a proposal by James Foster that, if we > need a code of conduct, it should be the ACM code. The PR has now > been closed. Does that mean that Jamesâs proposal has been > rejected? If so, why? > > Â > > If the conversation is closed now, that means that we are tacitly > accepting that the code is there and in force, and also tacitly > accepting how it got there. What is necessary is for the board > collectively, or someone representing the board, to tell us what > the situation is and what is going to happen next â preferably > with justifications. > > Â > > Peter KennyÂ > > Â > > *From:*Â Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org > <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org>>Â *On Behalf OfÂ *Steve > Quezadas > *Sent:*Â 19 September 2019 03:35 > *To:*Â Any question about pharo is welcome > <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>> > *Subject:*Â Re: [Pharo-users] R: Code of Conduct > > Â > > Yeah, I agree. Why is this even here? The thing I like about this > maillist is that its very community oriented and everyone here > helps each other. It's devoid of all the political-soapbox > nonsense that I would find on, say, facebook. Which is why I don't > deal with that platform anymore.Â > > Â > > And most of this is common sense anyway. Yeah, don't harass people > and make fun of them or whatever, Like most people on this list > doesn't already know that. Im very vocal about certain political > and social opinions, am not ashamed about my opinions, am open > about it, is currently "unpopular" but don't discuss them here > because it's offtopic and I don't want to piss off people in any > event. I don't want it turning into another facebook basically.Â > > Â > > I think we should all close this conversation, it's offtopic and > not relevant to any problems this list has in any meaningfulÂ way.Â > > Â > > - Steve > > Â > > On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kasper Ãsterbye > <kasper.osterbye(a)gmail.com <mailto:kasper.osterbye@gmail.com>> wrote: > > When I read the Code of conduct which is part of Pharo, my > reaction was "OK, I don't expect to run into trouble over that > one, so no worries".Â Â > > After having read the discussion here I would rather it was > not there. > > -- KasperÂ > > Â >

Sept. 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by PBKResearch

I think the comments about âsomeone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or just a trollâ are directed at me. My e-mail address is based on the trading name I used at the time I was doing consulting work; my actual name is Peter Kenny, and I use it to sign everything I post in this forum. I have no repositories, because the only code I write is of no general interest. As a member of the community, I was invited by Stephane Ducasse to work up a post I had written to help someone into a pamphlet on web scraping; I think that is still available in Pharo publications. So I am not a troll; I am an elderly but still active user of Pharo, and concerned about developments. There is an English saying about pots and kettles, which Mr Lorenzano might consider before making personal attacks on me. I did not say anything insulting about Serge Stinckwich. I asked whether he acted with authority when he posted the code, because I genuinely donât know what official position he has in the Pharo world. I still donât know whether the code is in effect as a result of being posted. âYou have been warnedâ seems like a threat. I do not like being threatened. If comments here, which are relevant to the topic and expressed in moderate language, are no longer welcome, I shall absent myself without waiting to be banned. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Esteban Lorenzano Sent: 19 September 2019 12:49 To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct On 19 Sep 2019, at 12:22, PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk <mailto:peter@pbkresearch.co.uk> > wrote: I donât think this conversation can be closed while things are in the present unclear situation. The github entry at <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md is still there, and has been there since last May. The github discussion on <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637 was abruptly closed by Stephane Ducasse, after some intemperate comments about Serge Stinckwich. Yes it can be closed. As we will close ANY thread/issue/PR that directly insults one of the members of the community. Even more important: We can close it if thread has been highjacked by someone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that makes you think is a real member of the community or just a troll. Members can do things right or wrong, as they are human beings. But emitting opinions in the way they were emitted about what they did is a no-go. So yes, you can discuss anything you want. But I personally will moderate any thread that does not discusses things in a civilised way. So you have been warned :) Esteban PS: I will also remember you that the purpose of this community is to make Pharo a great development environment. And we are all here because we all pursue that. We create a software that is open source and wants to have some social value added. This is therefore the only place questions can be asked. We now know that Serge posted the Code without prior discussion with the board. Did he have authority to do this on behalf of the Pharo community? Does the fact that he did so mean it is officially adopted by the community â not just for this mailing list, but for all Pharo activities? If Serge did not have authority, shouldnât it just be removed, at least until the board have discussed it? The PR mentioned above was a proposal by James Foster that, if we need a code of conduct, it should be the ACM code. The PR has now been closed. Does that mean that Jamesâs proposal has been rejected? If so, why? If the conversation is closed now, that means that we are tacitly accepting that the code is there and in force, and also tacitly accepting how it got there. What is necessary is for the board collectively, or someone representing the board, to tell us what the situation is and what is going to happen next â preferably with justifications. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users < <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org> pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Steve Quezadas Sent: 19 September 2019 03:35 To: Any question about pharo is welcome < <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] R: Code of Conduct Yeah, I agree. Why is this even here? The thing I like about this maillist is that its very community oriented and everyone here helps each other. It's devoid of all the political-soapbox nonsense that I would find on, say, facebook. Which is why I don't deal with that platform anymore. And most of this is common sense anyway. Yeah, don't harass people and make fun of them or whatever, Like most people on this list doesn't already know that. Im very vocal about certain political and social opinions, am not ashamed about my opinions, am open about it, is currently "unpopular" but don't discuss them here because it's offtopic and I don't want to piss off people in any event. I don't want it turning into another facebook basically. I think we should all close this conversation, it's offtopic and not relevant to any problems this list has in any meaningful way. - Steve On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kasper Ãsterbye < <mailto:kasper.osterbye@gmail.com> kasper.osterbye(a)gmail.com> wrote: When I read the Code of conduct which is part of Pharo, my reaction was "OK, I don't expect to run into trouble over that one, so no worries". After having read the discussion here I would rather it was not there. -- Kasper

Sept. 19, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Thanks Esteban. I'm more hopeful about where community conversation can take us... let's give it time. Cheers, Offray On 19/09/19 7:43 a.Â m., Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > I reopened while reporting the abuser (and block him).Â > > But frankly, I do not think the discussion will end in anything useful > (here or there). > > Esteban > >> On 19 Sep 2019, at 14:38, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas >> <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com <mailto:offray.luna@mutabit.com>> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> I really liked the way the conversation was advancing on the PR >> before it was used to insult one of the members of the community. I >> don't know if closing the whole thread on the PR is only the way to >> keep the trolls out of it, because it also keeps everyone who is >> trying to make a good contribution from civilized conversation. There >> is another way on GitHub to only keep trolls out while making the >> conversation available for the ones willing to build from it? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Offray >> >> On 19/09/19 6:49 a.Â m., Esteban Lorenzano wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 19 Sep 2019, at 12:22, PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk >>>> <mailto:peter@pbkresearch.co.uk>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I donât think this conversation can be closed while things are in >>>> the present unclear situation. The github entry >>>> atÂ https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.mdÂ is >>>> still there, and has been there since last May. The github >>>> discussion onÂ https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637Â was >>>> abruptly closed by Stephane Ducasse, after some intemperate >>>> comments about Serge Stinckwich. >>> >>> Yes it can be closed.Â >>> As we will close ANY thread/issue/PR that directly insults one of >>> the members of the community.Â >>> Even more important: We can close it if thread has been highjacked >>> by someone that has no name, no repositories, not anything that >>> makes you think is a real member of the community or just a troll. >>> >>> Members can do things right or wrong, as they are human beings. But >>> emitting opinions in the way they were emitted about what they did >>> is a no-go.Â >>> >>> So yes, you can discuss anything you want.Â >>> But I personally will moderate any thread that does not discusses >>> things in a civilised way. >>> >>> So you have been warned :) >>> >>> Esteban >>> >>> PS: I will also remember you that the purpose of this community is >>> to make Pharo a great development environment.Â >>> And we are all here because we all pursue that. >>> Â We create a software that is open source and wants to have some >>> social value added. >>> >>>> This is therefore the only place questions can be asked. >>>> Â >>>> We now know that Serge posted the Code without prior discussion >>>> with the board. Did he have authority to do this on behalf of the >>>> Pharo community? Does the fact that he did so mean it is officially >>>> adopted by the community â not just for this mailing list, but for >>>> all Pharo activities? If Serge did not have authority, shouldnât it >>>> just be removed, at least until the board have discussed it? >>>> Â >>>> The PR mentioned above was a proposal by James Foster that, if we >>>> need a code of conduct, it should be the ACM code. The PR has now >>>> been closed. Does that mean that Jamesâs proposal has been >>>> rejected? If so, why? >>>> Â >>>> If the conversation is closed now, that means that we are tacitly >>>> accepting that the code is there and in force, and also tacitly >>>> accepting how it got there. What is necessary is for the board >>>> collectively, or someone representing the board, to tell us what >>>> the situation is and what is going to happen next â preferably with >>>> justifications. >>>> Â >>>> Peter KennyÂ >>>> Â >>>> *From:*Â Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org >>>> <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org>>Â *On Behalf OfÂ *Steve >>>> Quezadas >>>> *Sent:*Â 19 September 2019 03:35 >>>> *To:*Â Any question about pharo is welcome >>>> <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>> >>>> *Subject:*Â Re: [Pharo-users] R: Code of Conduct >>>> Â >>>> Yeah, I agree. Why is this even here? The thing I like about this >>>> maillist is that its very community oriented and everyone here >>>> helps each other. It's devoid of all the political-soapbox nonsense >>>> that I would find on, say, facebook. Which is why I don't deal with >>>> that platform anymore.Â >>>> Â >>>> And most of this is common sense anyway. Yeah, don't harass people >>>> and make fun of them or whatever, Like most people on this list >>>> doesn't already know that. Im very vocal about certain political >>>> and social opinions, am not ashamed about my opinions, am open >>>> about it, is currently "unpopular" but don't discuss them here >>>> because it's offtopic and I don't want to piss off people in any >>>> event. I don't want it turning into another facebook basically.Â >>>> Â >>>> I think we should all close this conversation, it's offtopic and >>>> not relevant to any problems this list has in any meaningfulÂ way.Â >>>> Â >>>> - Steve >>>> Â >>>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 1:07 PM Kasper Ãsterbye >>>> <kasper.osterbye(a)gmail.com <mailto:kasper.osterbye@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> When I read the Code of conduct which is part of Pharo, my >>>>> reaction was "OK, I don't expect to run into trouble over that >>>>> one, so no worries".Â Â >>>>> >>>>> After having read the discussion here I would rather it was not there. >>>>> >>>>> -- KasperÂ >>>>> >>> >

Sept. 19, 2019