October 2017 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Thierry Goubier

What about a seaside-based system browser oriented towards code documentation? That would fit both paradigms: html-like reference + live browsing. You could even make it buzzword compliant: have a REST interface to documentation and code. Note how the panes in a system browser could make for a nice URI: just look for pharo://Kernel/Number/mathematical%20functions/raisedTo: And we could even include version numbers, etc.... pharo://6.1/Kernel/Number/mathematical%20functions/raisedTo: Not very different from the github url for the pharo project relevant file... https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/development/src/Kernel.package/… Thierry 2017-10-11 17:01 GMT+02:00 Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < offray.luna(a)mutabit.com>: > Yes. I know them. I mean API docs as static files. I don't really sold on > them compared with a live system and I don't think static API docs are > critical for Pharo success. > > Cheers, > > Offray > > On 11/10/17 09:52, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > Ah and my static website was built with Pillar and Bootstrap, using > bootstrap templates was easy because Pillar supports mustache that makes > html manipulation much easier > > http://www.kilon-alios.com > > Pillar of course is not made for generating websites but itâs an awesome > Pharo library that allows for great degree of freedom so I thought , why > not ? > On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:48, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Docs are available in static online html format , at least the book I was >> working on >> >> Pharo By Example >> >> You can find those links here >> >> https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample >> >> Our documentation system , Pillar , outputs pdf , html and markdown >> files. >> >> If the book in question is built like PBE with CI of Inria where most >> Pharo related official projects are built then it should have at least pdf >> and html with online access so you can easily link to. >> >> Donât quote me on this but I think the html output of pillar generate >> links even for paragraphs you can do an even more process linking to the >> documentation. >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:40, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < >> offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: >> >>> The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. For me seems >>> pretty suboptimal compared to live environment with code browser and >>> GT-Spotter. Regarding the comment on Medium, it also took me little to find >>> #raisedTo:, so the millage can vary. What I was missing was proper books >>> for particular domains, but Pharo books are covering that. I don't know if >>> a Q&A site could improve search-ability for newbies (certainly you can find >>> little stuff in Stack Overflow). >>> >>> My bet is about trying to create more "end user" tools (Grafoscopio is >>> kind of this), besides tools for developers. There is a broad community of >>> people who can be active contributors and members of the community, welcome >>> Pharo and live coding a lot and don't complain that much about stuff that >>> is not already pretty similar to what they already know (being that only >>> English MOOC or online static html docs). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Offray >>> >>> On 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: >>> >>> for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to have your >>> entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has serious issues with code >>> organisation and I find the lack of namespaces quite inconvenient. You have >>> to be careful how to name your classes which does not sound to me very OOP >>> friendly. >>> >>> Also the IDE does not handle spaggetification very well, sure you can >>> find implementors , senders etc but if the execution chain is complex , >>> welcome to spaggeti hell. But that is a problem with most other IDEs if not >>> all as well. Problem is in this case that we have the very good rule of >>> using sort methods which multiplies this problem and makes navigation even >>> harder. Code becomes much easier to read per method and messages but much >>> harder to understand in a bird eye view. >>> >>> Some of that pain has been aleviated with the introduction of GTSpotter >>> which I have praised quite a lot and I will continue to do so. But yeah >>> there are more needed to be done in the department to make Pharo code >>> navigation a more comfortable task. >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way >>>> to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well >>>> documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this >>>> ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >>>> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >>>> >>>> >>>> I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion made by >>>> Richard: https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is- >>>> much-harder-to-find-anything-in-the-environment-c6bdd44f6eea >>>> >>>> My 2 cents. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. >>>>> Personally, I >>>>> > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to >>>>> keep it >>>>> > current) reference page for the class library, something that >>>>> developers can >>>>> > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo >>>>> comes >>>>> > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as >>>>> possible to >>>>> > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). >>>>> > >>>>> > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very >>>>> inefficient. >>>>> > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and >>>>> methods are >>>>> > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is >>>>> just barely >>>>> > useful). >>>>> > >>>>> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic >>>>> way to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât >>>>> well documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me >>>>> this ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >>>>> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >>>>> >>>>> > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In >>>>> fact, >>>>> > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real >>>>> obstacle to >>>>> > Pharo acceptance. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > horrido wrote >>>>> >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following >>>>> paragraph: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather >>>>> >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to >>>>> adapt to >>>>> >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa >>>>> >> 1980â1990), >>>>> >> people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. >>>>> Thatâs >>>>> >> why >>>>> >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had >>>>> retired >>>>> >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN >>>>> scientific >>>>> >> programming. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>>>> >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve >>>>> checked >>>>> >>>> some >>>>> >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now >>>>> Pharo. Of >>>>> >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official >>>>> programming >>>>> >>>> guide >>>>> >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects >>>>> from a >>>>> >>>> language. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference >>>>> documentation for >>>>> >>>> the >>>>> >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python >>>>> >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, >>>>> not >>>>> >>>> even >>>>> >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a >>>>> running >>>>> >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, >>>>> >>> method, >>>>> >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a >>>>> very >>>>> >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is >>>>> actually >>>>> >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles >>>>> that take >>>>> >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >>>>> >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >>>>> >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo >>>>> and many >>>>> >>> more. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>>> >>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo- >>>>> Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo- >>>>> Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Yes. I know them. I mean API docs as static files. I don't really sold on them compared with a live system and I don't think static API docs are critical for Pharo success. Cheers, Offray On 11/10/17 09:52, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > Ah and my static website was built with Pillar and Bootstrap, using > bootstrap templates was easy because Pillar supports mustache that > makes html manipulation much easier > > http://www.kilon-alios.com > > Pillar of course is not made for generating websites but itâs an > awesome Pharo library that allows for great degree of freedom so I > thought , why not ? > On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:48, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com > <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Docs are available in static online html format , at least the > book I was working on > > Pharo By Example > > You can find those links here > > https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample > > Our documentation system , Pillar , outputs pdf , html and > markdown files. > > If the book in question is built like PBE with CI of Inria where > most Pharo related official projects are built then it should have > at least pdf and html with online access so you can easily link to. > > Donât quote me on this but I think the html output of pillar > generate links even for paragraphs you can do an even more process > linking to the documentation. > On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:40, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas > <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com <mailto:offray.luna@mutabit.com>> wrote: > > The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. For me > seems pretty suboptimal compared to live environment with code > browser and GT-Spotter. Regarding the comment on Medium, it > also took me little to find #raisedTo:, so the millage can > vary. What I was missing was proper books for particular > domains, but Pharo books are covering that. I don't know if a > Q&A site could improve search-ability for newbies (certainly > you can find little stuff in Stack Overflow). > > My bet is about trying to create more "end user" tools > (Grafoscopio is kind of this), besides tools for developers. > There is a broad community of people who can be active > contributors and members of the community, welcome Pharo and > live coding a lot and don't complain that much about stuff > that is not already pretty similar to what they already know > (being that only English MOOC or online static html docs). > > Cheers, > > Offray > > > On 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: >> for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to >> have your entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has >> serious issues with code organisation and I find the lack of >> namespaces quite inconvenient. You have to be careful how to >> name your classes which does not sound to me very OOP friendly.Â >> >> Also the IDE does not handle spaggetification very well, sure >> you can find implementors , senders etc but if the execution >> chain is complex , welcome to spaggeti hell. But that is a >> problem with most other IDEs if not all as well. Problem is >> in this case that we have the very good rule of using sort >> methods which multiplies this problem and makes navigation >> even harder. Code becomes much easier to read per method and >> messages but much harder to understand in a bird eye view. >> >> Some of that pain has been aleviated with the introduction of >> GTSpotter which I have praised quite a lot and I will >> continue to do so. But yeah there are more needed to be done >> in the department to make Pharo code navigation a more >> comfortable task.Â >> >> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor Medina Cruz >> <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com <mailto:vitormcruz@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System >> Browser a fantastic way to explore the class library. >> If you find a class or method that isnât well >> documented, write a comment and send a change >> request. Stef told me this ages ago. I might add, if >> you find a bug you should write a test that exercises >> the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking >> system). >> >> >> I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion >> made by Richard: >> https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much-harder-to-find-anythin… >> >> My 2 cents. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich >> <jpfersich(a)gmail.com <mailto:jpfersich@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido >> <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com >> <mailto:horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>> wrote: >> > >> > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of >> pushback on this. Personally, I >> > think it would be very helpful to have a live >> (updatable, so as to keep it >> > current) reference page for the class library, >> something that developers can >> > easily look up what they need. After all, most of >> the power of Pharo comes >> > from the class library and we need to make it as >> accessible as possible to >> > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). >> > >> > Exploring the class library through the System >> Browser is very inefficient. >> > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many >> classes and methods are >> > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory >> remark which is just barely >> > useful). >> > >> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System >> Browser a fantastic way to explore the class library. >> If you find a class or method that isnât well >> documented, write a comment and send a change >> request. Stef told me this ages ago. I might add, if >> you find a bug you should write a test that exercises >> the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking >> system). >> >> > I realize that creating a live reference page is >> not easy to do. In fact, >> > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page >> is a real obstacle to >> > Pharo acceptance. >> > >> > >> > >> > horrido wrote >> >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added >> the following paragraph: >> >> >> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that >> they are rather >> >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and >> not willing to adapt to >> >> new and different ways of doing things. In my >> generation (circa >> >> 1980â1990), >> >> people didnât have a problem with trying different >> technologies. Thatâs >> >> why >> >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years >> ago, after I had retired >> >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems >> programming and FORTRAN scientific >> >> programming. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >> >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >> >> >> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >> >> >> >>> > wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >> >>>> >> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time >> to time Iâve checked >> >>>> some >> >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, >> GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. Of >> >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a >> free, official programming >> >>>> guide >> >>>> and core library reference that any serious >> programmer expects from a >> >>>> language. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >> >>>> >> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he >> came back with: >> >>>> >> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained >> reference documentation for >> >>>> the >> >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this >> one for Python >> >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >> <https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html%29*> >> >>>> >> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core >> library reference, not >> >>>> even >> >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to >> this complaint? >> >>> >> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is >> unique in that a running >> >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ >> documentation (class, >> >>> method, >> >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ >> runnable examples in a very >> >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used >> to, but this is actually >> >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >> >>> >> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books >> and articles that take >> >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >> >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >> >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, >> http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and many >> >>> more. >> >>> >> >>>> Thanks. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Sent from: >> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Sent from: >> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Sent from: >> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > >> >> >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Error loading Seaside Gettext support

by Trussardi Dario Romano

Ciao, > Ciao, > > i load correctly the Gettext support into: Pharo 6.1-64 Latest update: #60510 > > In the image was load the Seaside 3.2 > Now i do: > > (ConfigurationOfSeaside3 project version: #stable ) > load: #( 'Seaside-Gettext-Core' 'Seaside-Gettext-Examples'). > > The system erase the error: > NaturalLanguageTranslator class(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #domainRegistered: > > TextDomainManager class>>registerDomain: > [ self registerDomain: domainName ] in TextDomainManager class>>domainInfoFor: in Block: [ self registerDomain: domainName ] > [ self at: key put: aBlock value ] in Dictionary>>at:ifAbsentPut: in Block: [ self at: key put: aBlock value ] > Dictionary>>at:ifAbsent: > Dictionary>>at:ifAbsentPut: > TextDomainManager class>>domainInfoFor: > TextDomainManager class>>registerCategoryPrefix:domain: > WAGettextExample class>>register > WAGettextExample class>>initialize > Some considerations ? > > Thanks, > > Dario After the error i restart the image and the: WAGettextExample class>>initialize works well. Now i don't understand what i need to do for create the relative .pot file. The WAGettextExample export method reference the: WAGetTextExporter but is not in the system. The GetTextExporter exportTemplate create only the pharo.pot file ( ... the relative pharo.mo works fine ). Thanks for considerations, Dario

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Ah and my static website was built with Pillar and Bootstrap, using bootstrap templates was easy because Pillar supports mustache that makes html manipulation much easier http://www.kilon-alios.com Pillar of course is not made for generating websites but itâs an awesome Pharo library that allows for great degree of freedom so I thought , why not ? On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:48, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Docs are available in static online html format , at least the book I was > working on > > Pharo By Example > > You can find those links here > > https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample > > Our documentation system , Pillar , outputs pdf , html and markdown files. > > If the book in question is built like PBE with CI of Inria where most > Pharo related official projects are built then it should have at least pdf > and html with online access so you can easily link to. > > Donât quote me on this but I think the html output of pillar generate > links even for paragraphs you can do an even more process linking to the > documentation. > On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:40, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < > offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > >> The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. For me seems >> pretty suboptimal compared to live environment with code browser and >> GT-Spotter. Regarding the comment on Medium, it also took me little to find >> #raisedTo:, so the millage can vary. What I was missing was proper books >> for particular domains, but Pharo books are covering that. I don't know if >> a Q&A site could improve search-ability for newbies (certainly you can find >> little stuff in Stack Overflow). >> >> My bet is about trying to create more "end user" tools (Grafoscopio is >> kind of this), besides tools for developers. There is a broad community of >> people who can be active contributors and members of the community, welcome >> Pharo and live coding a lot and don't complain that much about stuff that >> is not already pretty similar to what they already know (being that only >> English MOOC or online static html docs). >> >> Cheers, >> >> Offray >> >> On 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: >> >> for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to have your >> entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has serious issues with code >> organisation and I find the lack of namespaces quite inconvenient. You have >> to be careful how to name your classes which does not sound to me very OOP >> friendly. >> >> Also the IDE does not handle spaggetification very well, sure you can >> find implementors , senders etc but if the execution chain is complex , >> welcome to spaggeti hell. But that is a problem with most other IDEs if not >> all as well. Problem is in this case that we have the very good rule of >> using sort methods which multiplies this problem and makes navigation even >> harder. Code becomes much easier to read per method and messages but much >> harder to understand in a bird eye view. >> >> Some of that pain has been aleviated with the introduction of GTSpotter >> which I have praised quite a lot and I will continue to do so. But yeah >> there are more needed to be done in the department to make Pharo code >> navigation a more comfortable task. >> >> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way >>> to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well >>> documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this >>> ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >>> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >>> >>> >>> I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion made by >>> Richard: >>> https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much-harder-to-find-anythin… >>> >>> My 2 cents. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. >>>> Personally, I >>>> > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to >>>> keep it >>>> > current) reference page for the class library, something that >>>> developers can >>>> > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo >>>> comes >>>> > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as >>>> possible to >>>> > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). >>>> > >>>> > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very >>>> inefficient. >>>> > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods >>>> are >>>> > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just >>>> barely >>>> > useful). >>>> > >>>> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way >>>> to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well >>>> documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this >>>> ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >>>> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >>>> >>>> > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In >>>> fact, >>>> > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle >>>> to >>>> > Pharo acceptance. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > horrido wrote >>>> >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following >>>> paragraph: >>>> >> >>>> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather >>>> >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to >>>> adapt to >>>> >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa >>>> >> 1980â1990), >>>> >> people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. >>>> Thatâs >>>> >> why >>>> >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had >>>> retired >>>> >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN >>>> scientific >>>> >> programming. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>>> >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >>>> >> >>>> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >>>> >> >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve >>>> checked >>>> >>>> some >>>> >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now >>>> Pharo. Of >>>> >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official >>>> programming >>>> >>>> guide >>>> >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects >>>> from a >>>> >>>> language. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference >>>> documentation for >>>> >>>> the >>>> >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python >>>> >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, >>>> not >>>> >>>> even >>>> >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running >>>> >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, >>>> >>> method, >>>> >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a >>>> very >>>> >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is >>>> actually >>>> >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that >>>> take >>>> >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >>>> >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >>>> >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo >>>> and many >>>> >>> more. >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Sent from: >>>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>> >>

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Docs are available in static online html format , at least the book I was working on Pharo By Example You can find those links here https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample Our documentation system , Pillar , outputs pdf , html and markdown files. If the book in question is built like PBE with CI of Inria where most Pharo related official projects are built then it should have at least pdf and html with online access so you can easily link to. Donât quote me on this but I think the html output of pillar generate links even for paragraphs you can do an even more process linking to the documentation. On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:40, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. For me seems > pretty suboptimal compared to live environment with code browser and > GT-Spotter. Regarding the comment on Medium, it also took me little to find > #raisedTo:, so the millage can vary. What I was missing was proper books > for particular domains, but Pharo books are covering that. I don't know if > a Q&A site could improve search-ability for newbies (certainly you can find > little stuff in Stack Overflow). > > My bet is about trying to create more "end user" tools (Grafoscopio is > kind of this), besides tools for developers. There is a broad community of > people who can be active contributors and members of the community, welcome > Pharo and live coding a lot and don't complain that much about stuff that > is not already pretty similar to what they already know (being that only > English MOOC or online static html docs). > > Cheers, > > Offray > > On 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to have your > entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has serious issues with code > organisation and I find the lack of namespaces quite inconvenient. You have > to be careful how to name your classes which does not sound to me very OOP > friendly. > > Also the IDE does not handle spaggetification very well, sure you can find > implementors , senders etc but if the execution chain is complex , welcome > to spaggeti hell. But that is a problem with most other IDEs if not all as > well. Problem is in this case that we have the very good rule of using sort > methods which multiplies this problem and makes navigation even harder. > Code becomes much easier to read per method and messages but much harder to > understand in a bird eye view. > > Some of that pain has been aleviated with the introduction of GTSpotter > which I have praised quite a lot and I will continue to do so. But yeah > there are more needed to be done in the department to make Pharo code > navigation a more comfortable task. > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way >> to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well >> documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this >> ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >> >> >> I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion made by >> Richard: >> https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much-harder-to-find-anythin… >> >> My 2 cents. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. >>> Personally, I >>> > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to >>> keep it >>> > current) reference page for the class library, something that >>> developers can >>> > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo >>> comes >>> > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as >>> possible to >>> > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). >>> > >>> > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very >>> inefficient. >>> > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods >>> are >>> > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just >>> barely >>> > useful). >>> > >>> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way >>> to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well >>> documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this >>> ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >>> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >>> >>> > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In >>> fact, >>> > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle >>> to >>> > Pharo acceptance. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > horrido wrote >>> >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following >>> paragraph: >>> >> >>> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather >>> >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to >>> adapt to >>> >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa >>> >> 1980â1990), >>> >> people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. >>> Thatâs >>> >> why >>> >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had >>> retired >>> >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN >>> scientific >>> >> programming. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>> >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >>> >> >>> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >>> >> >>> >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve >>> checked >>> >>>> some >>> >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. >>> Of >>> >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official >>> programming >>> >>>> guide >>> >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from >>> a >>> >>>> language. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference >>> documentation for >>> >>>> the >>> >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python >>> >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >>> >>>> >>> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not >>> >>>> even >>> >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? >>> >>> >>> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running >>> >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, >>> >>> method, >>> >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a >>> very >>> >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is >>> actually >>> >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >>> >>> >>> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that >>> take >>> >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >>> >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >>> >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and >>> many >>> >>> more. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Thanks. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>>> Sent from: >>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> >>>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> > >>> >>> >> >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Ben Coman

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 3:17 PM, Christophe Demarey < christophe.demarey(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hi Vitor, > > Le 10 oct. 2017 Ã 19:00, Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit > : > > Â« Program Â» folder is the default location where to install apps on >> Windows. >> If a user does not have admin rights, he can simply install it under its >> home directory. >> >> Also there is the UAC Virtualization fiasco that complicates installing >> upgrades. >> http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/ >> 2014-January/091645.html >> >> >> >> Could we *please* install Windows PharoLauncher into user folders? >> >> >> >> Users can choose to install Pharo Launcher where they wish. >> We could choose another default location but not sure it is best option. >> > > Nope, I donât have any option of changing Pharo launcher installation. I > double click the exe and receive a message telling me I need administrative > rights. Can this be changed? Itâs a deal breaker for those using Windows. > > For Windows, Pharo is shipped with an installer. Its only goal is to ask > you where to install Pharo. So yes, the installation directory is > configurable. > Just to be sure, here the link to the installer: http://files.pharo. > org/platform/launcher/pharo_installer-1.0.1.exe > > Hi Christophe, Can you get access to a Windows machine to try this... 1. Create a Standard User account with a password different from the default account... https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn772452(v=ws.11).aspx 2. Log in as the standard user account. 3. Without typing another password, install PharoLauncher from cheers -ben

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. For me seems pretty suboptimal compared to live environment with code browser and GT-Spotter. Regarding the comment on Medium, it also took me little to find #raisedTo:, so the millage can vary. What I was missing was proper books for particular domains, but Pharo books are covering that. I don't know if a Q&A site could improve search-ability for newbies (certainly you can find little stuff in Stack Overflow). My bet is about trying to create more "end user" tools (Grafoscopio is kind of this), besides tools for developers. There is a broad community of people who can be active contributors and members of the community, welcome Pharo and live coding a lot and don't complain that much about stuff that is not already pretty similar to what they already know (being that only English MOOC or online static html docs). Cheers, Offray On 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to have your > entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has serious issues with > code organisation and I find the lack of namespaces quite > inconvenient. You have to be careful how to name your classes which > does not sound to me very OOP friendly.Â > > Also the IDE does not handle spaggetification very well, sure you can > find implementors , senders etc but if the execution chain is complex > , welcome to spaggeti hell. But that is a problem with most other IDEs > if not all as well. Problem is in this case that we have the very good > rule of using sort methods which multiplies this problem and makes > navigation even harder. Code becomes much easier to read per method > and messages but much harder to understand in a bird eye view. > > Some of that pain has been aleviated with the introduction of > GTSpotter which I have praised quite a lot and I will continue to do > so. But yeah there are more needed to be done in the department to > make Pharo code navigation a more comfortable task.Â > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor Medina Cruz > <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com <mailto:vitormcruz@gmail.com>> wrote: > > I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a > fantastic way to explore the class library. If you find a > class or method that isnât well documented, write a comment > and send a change request. Stef told me this ages ago. I might > add, if you find a bug you should write a test that exercises > the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). > > > I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion made by > Richard: > https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much-harder-to-find-anythin… > > My 2 cents. > > > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich > <jpfersich(a)gmail.com <mailto:jpfersich@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido > <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com <mailto:horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on > this. Personally, I > > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so > as to keep it > > current) reference page for the class library, something > that developers can > > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power > of Pharo comes > > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible > as possible to > > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). > > > > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is > very inefficient. > > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes > and methods are > > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark > which is just barely > > useful). > > > I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a > fantastic way to explore the class library. If you find a > class or method that isnât well documented, write a comment > and send a change request. Stef told me this ages ago. I might > add, if you find a bug you should write a test that exercises > the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). > > > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to > do. In fact, > > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real > obstacle to > > Pharo acceptance. > > > > > > > > horrido wrote > >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the > following paragraph: > >> > >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are > rather > >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not > willing to adapt to > >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa > >> 1980â1990), > >> people didnât have a problem with trying different > technologies. Thatâs > >> why > >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after > I had retired > >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and > FORTRAN scientific > >> programming. > >> > >> > >> > >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < > >> > >>> horrido.hobbies@ > >> > >>> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: > >>>> > >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time > Iâve checked > >>>> some > >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and > now Pharo. Of > >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, > official programming > >>>> guide > >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer > expects from a > >>>> language. > >>>> > >>>> > https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* > >>>> > >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back > with: > >>>> > >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference > documentation for > >>>> the > >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for > Python > >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* > <https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html%29*> > >>>> > >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library > reference, not > >>>> even > >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this > complaint? > >>> > >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that > a running > >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation > (class, > >>> method, > >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable > examples in a very > >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but > this is actually > >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. > >>> > >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and > articles that take > >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is > >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, > >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, > http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and many > >>> more. > >>> > >>>> Thanks. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Sent from: > http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Sent from: > http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Sent from: > http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Christophe Demarey

> Le 11 oct. 2017 Ã 12:10, stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl> a Ã©crit : > > On 06-10-17 13:26, Christophe Demarey wrote: >> For those wanted more info on how the adequate VM is computed, here is the process: >> determine the image format version >> find (and optionnaly fetch) a compatible VM (a VM able to run this image format) and run the image to get its Pharo version number >> find (and optionnaly fetch) the appropriate VM for this specific Pharo image version. Sources files are also downloaded with the VM when applicable. >> run the image with the appropriate VM > > Thanks, Christophe. > > It might be useful to regularly check for newer vms, at least the stable ones. VMs are supposed to be backwards compatible. Right. I added an issue: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/issues/42

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by st＠bestley.co.uk

horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. Personally, I > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep it > current) reference page for the class library, something that developers can > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo comes > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as possible to > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). > > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very inefficient. > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods are > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just barely > useful). > > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In fact, > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle to > Pharo acceptance. > I have a simple example compoared with python. I want to programatically find the version number of current instance. In Python I go to the document page e.g. <https://docs.python.org/3/> and search for version. I get a pageful of hits which I can read and find the snswer (ie sys.version) For Pharo what search do I do? You don't need to implement a seach engine Google, Bing etc can do this and with a lot more resopuirces than Pharo can do, but you need the information in a restricted place e.g. one site. and it does not need to be dynamic The first thing I do for a new technology is RTFM. > > > horrido wrote > > Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following paragraph: > > > > The problem I find with today's developers is that they are rather > > closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to adapt to > > new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa > > 1980â1990), > > people didn't have a problem with trying different technologies. That's > > why > > I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had retired > > from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN scientific > > programming. > > > > > > > > Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > >>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < > > > >> horrido.hobbies@ > > > >> > wrote: > >>> > >>> I received this comment from someone who complained: > >>> > >>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time I've checked > >>> some > >>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. Of > >>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official programming > >>> guide > >>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from a > >>> language. > >>> > >>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* > >>> > >>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: > >>> > >>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference documentation for > >>> the > >>> classes that form "the core library", like this one for Python > >>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* > >>> > >>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not > >>> even > >>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? > >> > >> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running > >> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, > >> method, > >> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a very > >> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is actually > >> better and much more powerful than any alternative. > >> > >> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that take > >> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is > >> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, > >> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and many > >> more. > >> > -- Mark

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] TechTalk on Artificial Intelligence & Neural Networks

by Serge Stinckwich

I would like to advertise the TechTalk for colleagues of my lab. They can join Discord using the invitation link ? http://discord.gg/Sj2rhxn On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> wrote: > > Dear All, > > A TechTalk on Artificial Intelligence is soon approaching. > The talk will be about implementing a neural networks in Pharo. > > It is scheduled on Tuesday 17Oct, 2017 (5:00 PM - 7:00 PM (UTC+02:00)) > > I need your input. Which example to you want me to use? > - Data manipulation, or > - Designing a small AI for a game > > Please answer: > https://twitter.com/alexbergel/status/918084438197784578 > > Some info about the event: > https://association.pharo.org/event-2642664 > https://www.facebook.com/events/133683180530368 > > Thanks Marcus Denker and the RMoD crew for their help in organizing it. > > Cheers, > Alexandre > > -- > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > -- Serge Stinckwich UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC/UY1) "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [TechTalk] 17th Oct: Artificial Intelligence

by Marcus Denker

It should use Youtube live Streaming again, so yes. (like the ones here: http://pharo.org/TechTalk <http://pharo.org/TechTalk>) > On 11 Oct 2017, at 14:19, jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de wrote: > > Will this TechTalk be recorded? I will most likely not have time at that time... > > Joachim > > > Am 11.10.17 um 09:47 schrieb Marcus Denker: >> Pharo TechTalk: Artificial Intelligence >> ââââââââââââââââââââââââ >> >> >> A regular chat about Pharo. Happens on Discord. >> Topic: Artificial Intelligence. >> >> This is an interactive mini lecture about AI by Alexandre Bergel. >> >> 17 Oct 2017 >> 5:00 PM - 7:00 PM (UTC+02:00) This is 17h Paris time. >> >> you can download a calendar entry here: >> >> https://association.pharo.org/event-2642664 >> > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de > Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de > D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com > Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 > >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to have your entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has serious issues with code organisation and I find the lack of namespaces quite inconvenient. You have to be careful how to name your classes which does not sound to me very OOP friendly. Also the IDE does not handle spaggetification very well, sure you can find implementors , senders etc but if the execution chain is complex , welcome to spaggeti hell. But that is a problem with most other IDEs if not all as well. Problem is in this case that we have the very good rule of using sort methods which multiplies this problem and makes navigation even harder. Code becomes much easier to read per method and messages but much harder to understand in a bird eye view. Some of that pain has been aleviated with the introduction of GTSpotter which I have praised quite a lot and I will continue to do so. But yeah there are more needed to be done in the department to make Pharo code navigation a more comfortable task. On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way to > explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well > documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this > ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that > exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). > > > I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion made by Richard: > https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much-harder-to-find-anythin… > > My 2 cents. > > > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> >> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. >> Personally, I >> > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep >> it >> > current) reference page for the class library, something that >> developers can >> > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo >> comes >> > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as possible >> to >> > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). >> > >> > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very >> inefficient. >> > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods >> are >> > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just >> barely >> > useful). >> > >> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way >> to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well >> documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this >> ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >> >> > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In >> fact, >> > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle to >> > Pharo acceptance. >> > >> > >> > >> > horrido wrote >> >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following >> paragraph: >> >> >> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather >> >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to adapt >> to >> >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa >> >> 1980â1990), >> >> people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. Thatâs >> >> why >> >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had >> retired >> >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN >> scientific >> >> programming. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >> >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >> >> >> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >> >> >> >>> > wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >> >>>> >> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve checked >> >>>> some >> >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. >> Of >> >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official >> programming >> >>>> guide >> >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from a >> >>>> language. >> >>>> >> >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >> >>>> >> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: >> >>>> >> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference documentation >> for >> >>>> the >> >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python >> >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >> >>>> >> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not >> >>>> even >> >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? >> >>> >> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running >> >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, >> >>> method, >> >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a >> very >> >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is >> actually >> >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >> >>> >> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that >> take >> >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >> >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >> >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and >> many >> >>> more. >> >>> >> >>>> Thanks. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > >> >> >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [TechTalk] 17th Oct: Artificial Intelligence

by jtuchel＠objektfabrik.de

Will this TechTalk be recorded? I will most likely not have time at that time... Joachim Am 11.10.17 um 09:47 schrieb Marcus Denker: > Pharo TechTalk: Artificial Intelligence > ââââââââââââââââââââââââ > > > A regular chat about Pharo. Happens on Discord. > Topic: Artificial Intelligence. > > This is an interactive mini lecture about AI by Alexandre Bergel. > > 17 Oct 2017 > 5:00 PM - 7:00 PM (UTC+02:00) This is 17h Paris time. > > you can download a calendar entry here: > > https://association.pharo.org/event-2642664 > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de Fliederweg 1Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0Â Â Â Â Â Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

Oct. 11, 2017

TechTalk on Artificial Intelligence & Neural Networks

by Alexandre Bergel

Dear All, A TechTalk on Artificial Intelligence is soon approaching. The talk will be about implementing a neural networks in Pharo. It is scheduled on Tuesday 17Oct, 2017 (5:00 PM - 7:00 PM (UTC+02:00)) I need your input. Which example to you want me to use? - Data manipulation, or - Designing a small AI for a game Please answer: https://twitter.com/alexbergel/status/918084438197784578 Some info about the event: https://association.pharo.org/event-2642664 https://www.facebook.com/events/133683180530368 Thanks Marcus Denker and the RMoD crew for their help in organizing it. Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Vitor Medina Cruz

I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion made by Richard: https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much-harder-to-find-anythin… My 2 cents. On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. > Personally, I > > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep > it > > current) reference page for the class library, something that developers > can > > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo > comes > > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as possible > to > > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). > > > > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very > inefficient. > > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods are > > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just > barely > > useful). > > > I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way to > explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well > documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this > ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that > exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). > > > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In fact, > > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle to > > Pharo acceptance. > > > > > > > > horrido wrote > >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following > paragraph: > >> > >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather > >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to adapt > to > >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa > >> 1980â1990), > >> people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. Thatâs > >> why > >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had retired > >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN > scientific > >> programming. > >> > >> > >> > >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < > >> > >>> horrido.hobbies@ > >> > >>> > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: > >>>> > >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve checked > >>>> some > >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. Of > >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official programming > >>>> guide > >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from a > >>>> language. > >>>> > >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* > >>>> > >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: > >>>> > >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference documentation > for > >>>> the > >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python > >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* > >>>> > >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not > >>>> even > >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? > >>> > >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running > >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, > >>> method, > >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a very > >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is > actually > >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. > >>> > >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that > take > >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is > >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, > >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and > many > >>> more. > >>> > >>>> Thanks. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >>>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Vitor Medina Cruz

Hi Christophe, Yes, but: 1- I canât execute it if I donât have administrative rights â I have tried with the provided link. Before I get to the installation directory choice, windows prompt me an error telling me I must be an admin. It is probably some windows policy for all exe files, I know it is possible to bypass this as some applications do (Intellij for example), but it is usually easier to provide a zip; [image: Inline image 1] 2- 7-Zip can open this executable as it were a zip file, thatâs how I manage to install Pharo Launcher. On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 4:17 AM, Christophe Demarey < christophe.demarey(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hi Vitor, > > Le 10 oct. 2017 Ã 19:00, Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit > : > > Â« Program Â» folder is the default location where to install apps on >> Windows. >> If a user does not have admin rights, he can simply install it under its >> home directory. >> >> Also there is the UAC Virtualization fiasco that complicates installing >> upgrades. >> http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/ >> 2014-January/091645.html >> >> >> >> Could we *please* install Windows PharoLauncher into user folders? >> >> >> >> Users can choose to install Pharo Launcher where they wish. >> We could choose another default location but not sure it is best option. >> > > Nope, I donât have any option of changing Pharo launcher installation. I > double click the exe and receive a message telling me I need administrative > rights. Can this be changed? Itâs a deal breaker for those using Windows. > > For Windows, Pharo is shipped with an installer. Its only goal is to ask > you where to install Pharo. So yes, the installation directory is > configurable. > Just to be sure, here the link to the installer: http://files.pharo. > org/platform/launcher/pharo_installer-1.0.1.exe > >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by stephan

On 06-10-17 13:26, Christophe Demarey wrote: > For those wanted more info on how the adequate VM is computed, here is the process: > determine the image format version > find (and optionnaly fetch) a compatible VM (a VM able to run this image format) and run the image to get its Pharo version number > find (and optionnaly fetch) the appropriate VM for this specific Pharo image version. Sources files are also downloaded with the VM when applicable. > run the image with the appropriate VM Thanks, Christophe. It might be useful to regularly check for newer vms, at least the stable ones. VMs are supposed to be backwards compatible. Stephan

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Update of ConfigurationOfGlorp

by stephan

On 06-10-17 17:22, Herby VojÄÃk wrote: > Any chance of incorporating fixes 127 / 129? Sure, as soon as someone tells me they are safe to add. I am just testing Glorp with P3 and Postgres now, and don't have the capacity to verify these changes other than by just reading the delta. Stephan

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] Videos ESUG17 Day1 online

by Tudor Girba

Thanks, Marcus! Doru > On Oct 11, 2017, at 9:50 AM, Marcus Denker <marcus.denker(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Hi, > > The videos of the first day are online: > > https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJ5nSnWzQXi_THfKwhzxFwbXy00YTi0uv > > > More coming soon. > > Marcus > > -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "We can create beautiful models in a vacuum. But, to get them effective we have to deal with the inconvenience of reality."

Oct. 11, 2017

Videos ESUG17 Day1 online

by Marcus Denker

Hi, The videos of the first day are online: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJ5nSnWzQXi_THfKwhzxFwbXy00YTi0uv <https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJ5nSnWzQXi_THfKwhzxFwbXy00YTi0uv> More coming soon. Marcus

Oct. 11, 2017

[TechTalk] 17th Oct: Artificial Intelligence

by Marcus Denker

Pharo TechTalk: Artificial Intelligence ââââââââââââââââââââââââ A regular chat about Pharo. Happens on Discord. Topic: Artificial Intelligence. This is an interactive mini lecture about AI by Alexandre Bergel. 17 Oct 2017 5:00 PM - 7:00 PM (UTC+02:00) This is 17h Paris time. you can download a calendar entry here: https://association.pharo.org/event-2642664

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Christophe Demarey

Hi Vitor, > Le 10 oct. 2017 Ã 19:00, Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit : > > Â« Program Â» folder is the default location where to install apps on Windows. > If a user does not have admin rights, he can simply install it under its home directory. > >> Also there is the UAC Virtualization fiasco that complicates installing upgrades. >> http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-January/091… <http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-January/091…> > >> Could we *please* install Windows PharoLauncher into user folders? > > > Users can choose to install Pharo Launcher where they wish. > We could choose another default location but not sure it is best option. > > Nope, I donât have any option of changing Pharo launcher installation. I double click the exe and receive a message telling me I need administrative rights. Can this be changed? Itâs a deal breaker for those using Windows. > For Windows, Pharo is shipped with an installer. Its only goal is to ask you where to install Pharo. So yes, the installation directory is configurable. Just to be sure, here the link to the installer: http://files.pharo.org/platform/launcher/pharo_installer-1.0.1.exe

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Christophe Demarey

> Le 9 oct. 2017 Ã 15:56, Peter UhnÃ¡k <i.uhnak(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit : > I guess I hate when applications are throwing their garbage into my $HOME (this also goes for VirtualBox, Eclipse, and everyone else). Perfectly understandable. > If I am not accessing the files directly, but they are pretty much always managed by some other applications, then for me they are polluting $HOME. (And yes, I sometimes do launch to image by hand, or manipulate VirtualBox by hand, but that doesn't change the fact that it is not the primary way to work with it.) > > But no worries, I rest my case and I patch it for myself. (So no need to add configuration for this either.) No need to patch, you already have settings to configure where to store images and virtual machines. Regards, Christophe

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Embedded PDF viewer?

by Ben Coman

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 8:58 PM, Manuel Leuenberger > > <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I want to view a PDF within Pharo. I found that Athens has a PDF > canvas, but I have no idea how to use it. Is there a way to view a PDF > within Pharo, so that I can scroll, zoom, click links etc. in the PDF? > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Manuel > > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 3:04 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Hi manuel > > > > So far I do not know if we have this is Pharo. > > I imagine that we would have to build a renderer once we will have the > > PDF reader from Christian library. > > > > Stef > > [Edit: Update license link] > A renderer will have great synergy with PDFTalk, but I think a proof of > concept can be done independently. > I've been poking at this topic for a while looking for options. > Coincidentally a couple of days I discovered the PDFium library. > I haven't had time yet to give it a run, but it seems a good candidate > since... > * Its a successful commercial product by Foxit built into Chrome converted > to open source with Google's backing for use in Chromium > https://www.foxitsoftware.com/company/press.php?id=305 > * Its license is BSD style > *https://github.com/hfiguiere/pdfium/blob/master/LICENSE > <https://github.com/hfiguiere/pdfium/blob/master/LICENSE>* > * Although written in C++ it has a C interface > https://github.com/hfiguiere/pdfium/blob/master/public/fpdfview.h > * Search here on " Function: " to skim through > * Proof of concept seems to only need these key functions... > * void FPDF_RenderPageBitmap( FPDF_BITMAP bitmap,FPDF_PAGE > page, ... ) > * FPDF_BITMAP FPDFBitmap_Create( int width, int height, int > alpha); > * FPDF_PAGE FPDF_LoadPage ( FPDF_DOCUMENT document, int > page_index ) > * FPDF_DOCUMENT FPDF_LoadMemDocument ( const void* data_buf > ... ) > * void FPDF_InitLibrary () > * Has a concise getting started for POC... > https://github.com/hfiguiere/pdfium/blob/master/docs/getting > -started.md > * Maybe useful fork with V8 disabled by default > https://github.com/klokantech/pdfium > * Master repo here > https://pdfium.googlesource.com/pdfium/ > > So Pharo might load a PDF file into a ByteArray, pass that to > FPDF_LoadMemDocument() & FPDF_LoadPage(), > then get a bitmap back from FPDFBitmap_Create() & FPDF_RenderPageBitmap() > and display the result in a Pharo window. > > The rest of this week I'm working 12 hour days on a mine site. I could > try it out once I'm home, but in the meantime is anyone else keen to try > it? > > cheers -ben >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Embedded PDF viewer?

by Ben Coman

> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 8:58 PM, Manuel Leuenberger > <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I want to view a PDF within Pharo. I found that Athens has a PDF canvas, but I have no idea how to use it. Is there a way to view a PDF within Pharo, so that I can scroll, zoom, click links etc. in the PDF? > > > > Cheers, > > Manuel On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 3:04 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi manuel > > So far I do not know if we have this is Pharo. > I imagine that we would have to build a renderer once we will have the > PDF reader from Christian library. > > Stef A renderer will have great synergy with PDFTalk, but I think a proof of concept can be done independently. I've been poking at this topic for a while looking for options. Coincidentally a couple of days I discovered the PDFium library. I haven't had time yet to give it a run, but it seems a good candidate since... * Its a successful commercial product by Foxit built into Chrome converted to open source with Google's backing for use in Chromium https://www.foxitsoftware.com/company/press.php?id=305 * Its license is BSD style https://github.com/hfiguiere/pdfium/tree/master/public * Although written in C++ it has a C interface https://github.com/hfiguiere/pdfium/blob/master/public/fpdfview.h * Search here on " Function: " to skim through * Proof of concept seems to only need these key functions... * void FPDF_RenderPageBitmap( FPDF_BITMAP bitmap,FPDF_PAGE page, ... ) * FPDF_BITMAP FPDFBitmap_Create( int width, int height, int alpha); * FPDF_PAGE FPDF_LoadPage ( FPDF_DOCUMENT document, int page_index ) * FPDF_DOCUMENT FPDF_LoadMemDocument ( const void* data_buf ... ) * void FPDF_InitLibrary () * Has a concise getting started for POC... https://github.com/hfiguiere/pdfium/blob/master/docs/ getting-started.md * Maybe useful fork with V8 disabled by default https://github.com/klokantech/pdfium * Master repo here https://pdfium.googlesource.com/pdfium/ So Pharo might load a PDF file into a ByteArray, pass that to FPDF_LoadMemDocument() & FPDF_LoadPage(), then get a bitmap back from FPDFBitmap_Create() & FPDF_RenderPageBitmap() and display the result in a Pharo window. The rest of this week I'm working 12 hour days on a mine site. I could try it out once I'm home, but in the meantime is anyone else keen to try it? cheers -ben

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem with input to XML Parser - 'Invalid UTF8 encoding'

by monty

I know what the problem is and will have it fixed shortly. Thanks for the report. > Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 at 9:03 AM > From: "Peter Kenny" <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk> > To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem with input to XML Parser - 'Invalid UTF8 encoding' > > Correction - I am misrepresenting Sven. What he said was that Zinc would not > look inside the HTML <head> node to find out about coding. It would of > course use information in the HTTP headers, if any. > > > Peter Kenny wrote > > Henry > > > > Thanks for the explanations. It's a bit clearer now. I'm still not sure > > about how ZnUrl>>retrieveContents manages to decode correctly in this > > case; > > I'm sure I recall Sven saying it didn't (and in his view shouldn't) look > > at > > the HTTP declarations in the header. There is also the mystery of how the > > string reader in the XML-Parser package (XMLURI>>get) does the same trick, > > when it is presumably what XMLHTMLParser>>parseURL: uses and fails. > > > > However, all these are second order problems. It all begins because the > > Corriere web site does strange things with encoding, including using a > > UTF8 > > character in a page coded with 8859-1, as Paul pointed out. In any case, > > reading the page as a string and then parsing it solves my problem, so I > > shall stick to that as a standard procedure. Most importantly, I don't > > think > > there is any indication of a problem in the XML package for Monty to worry > > about. > > > > Thanks again > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > -- > > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by john pfersich

> On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. Personally, I > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep it > current) reference page for the class library, something that developers can > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo comes > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as possible to > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). > > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very inefficient. > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods are > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just barely > useful). > I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In fact, > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle to > Pharo acceptance. > > > > horrido wrote >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following paragraph: >> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to adapt to >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa >> 1980â1990), >> people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. Thatâs >> why >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had retired >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN scientific >> programming. >> >> >> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >>>> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve checked >>>> some >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. Of >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official programming >>>> guide >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from a >>>> language. >>>> >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >>>> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: >>>> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference documentation for >>>> the >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >>>> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not >>>> even >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? >>> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, >>> method, >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a very >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is actually >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >>> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that take >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and many >>> more. >>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Embedded PDF viewer?

by Dimitris Chloupis

Implementation wise this may be possible through a hack, some OS windows can be semi trasparent , this make it possible to overlay one GUI element over the other in this case a PDF with basic scrolling handles. It should be possible with UFFI and some knowledge of OS GUI APIs. Probably much easier than having to implement the entire things in Pharo from scratch which would be ideal. The overlay windows can change size according to the dimension of the Pharo windows so you can fool any pharo user thinking this is actually an internal Pharo window. This way even if the user resize or maximise the pharo window nothing messes up the Pharo gui. On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 12:04 AM Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > I have been thinking about this. I don't know if you can have a VNC > client inside the image that can be used to render a PDF app, but that > would be my first approach, to leverage all the features in the current > PDF readers. > > Cheers, > > Offray > > > On 10/10/17 14:04, Stephane Ducasse wrote: > > Hi manuel > > > > So far I do not know if we have this is Pharo. > > I imagine that we would have to build a renderer once we will have the > > PDF reader from Christian library. > > > > Stef > > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 8:58 PM, Manuel Leuenberger > > <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch> wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> I want to view a PDF within Pharo. I found that Athens has a PDF > canvas, but I have no idea how to use it. Is there a way to view a PDF > within Pharo, so that I can scroll, zoom, click links etc. in the PDF? > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Manuel > >> > >> > > > > >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Custom URI scheme for Pharo

by Dimitris Chloupis

I think I remember this disussed before. By talking with Pharo I assume here about another program talking to Pharo ? Possible not wrriten in Pharo ? If thats the case then you can use whatever IPC works better for your needs. If the communication will be remotely I recommend sockets, for fast local communication I recommend shared memory. They are both very mature technologies , very reliable and cross platform. Now on the URI protocol, I think that will depend what you want to achieve. Any string will be easy to parse with Pharo's regex and trigger the approriate methods. Pharo also have Annoucements, think of it as an event system that awaits to be triggered by an event, usually a Pharo event but I see no reason why it cant listen to external events either. I do not think you will need a middle application , a servel client relation shipe should be more than enough. With my Atlas bridge which is a Pharo library that allows you to use Python libraries I did a neat trick with Pharo that it already communicated with Python via sockets, sending python commands but also Python could communicate back errors , then Pharo would trigger the debugger, display the python error inside the Pharo debugger and the debugger would pop up on the exact pharo command that send the faulty python code. You could then change the pharo command on the spot and it was resent and python continued like the error never happened to retain the all important live coding workflow. I created a tiny protocol to difirentia incoming messages talking about errors from the ones returning python varriable values. Something stupid like "pythonError: blah blah" but it got the job done On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 10:07 PM Manuel Leuenberger < leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch> wrote: > Hi, > > Is there any support from the VM/Application package to add custom URI > schemes to listen to from within Pharo? I would like to have a hyperlink > like âpharo://send?data=fancypantsâ in an arbitrary document that, when > clicked, switches to Pharo and calls a hook I can register. Could someone > give me a hint how to achieve that, or do I have to build a little bridge > application that handles the scheme registration and talks with Pharo > through another channel? Currently, I only need this for OS X. > > Cheers, > Manuel > >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Yes exactly my post was not an effort to diminish the value of Pharo as live coding system. My effort was to reveal my findings because I have been doing a lot of research lately. I am not keen on abandoning the comforts of Pharo live coding wise now that I code in Python. But to get to Pharo level there are many issues to be resolved. I know however that I can get to Pharo level eventually at least on features I really care about. Because I have little interest in proving something better from something else. I would not try this if there were not already a substantial amount of features. I know that you guys did not know this is possible and I do not think thats a bad thing because a year ago I did not know that is possible either. It started as a joke and out of it I created two projects , Atlas and CPPBridge both 100% Pharo code. With atlas I could have settled with inling python syntax but I did not because that was easy instead I parsed Pharo syntax to python syntax to make a deeper integration between Pharo and Python libraries. I think how difficult it is depends on how high you put your barrier of entry, if you go for a full blown live coding system like Pharo has, it will be difficult because there will be several important issues to resolve. As you said those language do not follow a strict live coding workflow. They have live coding features out of need to resolved real time issues. Does C has DLLs because it cares about live coding, obviously not, but the moment you have a library that can at any moment be reloaded you already made the first step down the path. When I said you can do hardcore live coding with ease, I meant that you can live code full time provided you have built some of the functionality. Once you got a basic library running the rest just flows. But if you want to complete neck to neck with Pharo it will be a challange because Pharo does not have live coding feature only at language level but also at IDE level. Again if people did only the easy stuff, we would not have Pharo would we , the fun is in the challenge. If a python coder should be stop by the lack of a live coding enviroment should a Pharo be stopped by the lack of namespaces ? Of course not, languages are there to be extended via third party libraries and the more we challange ourselved the deeper the understanding becomes and the more amazing stuff we can do. On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 2:25 PM Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > kilon.alios wrote > > itâs clear the community is unwilling to deal with such discussions. > > I wouldn't say that... after all this thread has the most posts on this > list > since January 21 ;) I personally learned a lot and was glad to hear all the > points. I thought the last two pretty much captured the situation, which is > that you *can* do live programming in other languages, but the advantage of > Pharo is that it's *about* live programming. I certainly didn't know it was > even possible in some of the other languages mentioned. Yet, practically, > it > seems extremely difficult for a system that tacks something on as a feature > to compete with a system that values that thing at its core. Ironically, > the > biggest barrier seems to be human, in the McLuhan sense that our medium > determines how/what we can think/say. I feel lucky to have discovered > Smalltalk and have cast off (most) of the brain damage from C and C++ ha > ha. > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

No because turing conplete means you have to implement all those live features yourself, I only gave a taste but I return to Python because thats the language I know the most, you can live manipulate objects in so many diffirent ways and mess their structure. Make a method become an instance variable,and instance variable to a method, rename variables , change the signature of your methods but only on specific instance or on the class itself. There is an incredibe large library of object manipulation features there to be tamed. Pharo can do many of those things and more of course. Turing complete would apply to me if I said, Python has no live coding feature, but you can implement those if you want. Thats not what I am saying. Python or C may not call this live coding, they call it dynamic libraries, dynamic loading of modules, exceptions , post mortem debugging (debugger popping up in case of error) , module reloading, execution time compiling and many more. They never mentions the word "live coding" , but the features themselves are directly related and very fundamental requirements for live coding. Those features exists because live coding is a necessity , there will be always scenarios that a coder will want to dynamically change something during execution. There is no big ideology behind it like Pharto , which is why Pharo is the best at live coding, but rather practical needs that users requested to be resolved and the devs of languages were forced to implement them to keep them happy. For example its possible to extend live coding outside the Pharo image, using memory mapped files , the Pharo image can be extended not only to save Pharo live state but also the live state of any C library it depends on. This is crucial when you open the image and then you find something does not work because C live state was not storred which is why we have the session attribute we use to make sure that C libraries are correctly initialize in image startup. My CPPBridge which is 100% Pharo project , if you exclude some C examples , it provide a basic way of a live coding image that can act as an extension to the pharo image and include live C state. So yes I have done my hopework. As a matter of fact each time I hear arguments turing complete wise, I facepalm myself. Because its a louse excuse to support a language. Any tool or library that can save you time its a huge deal. On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 12:40 PM Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Dimitris. > > You opinion about live programming reminds me the common sentence from > developers who don't care about languages at all. Usual argument is: they > all are Turing complete, so who cares. > > 2017-10-10 11:02 GMT+02:00 webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws>: > >> Calm your tits, dude. No need to use Caps Lock that much :-) >> >> I made no value judgements in my post, letting readers decide for >> themselves. >> Nor did I attribute any claims to you. Except "live coding in Python is >> easy", which you did say in some earlier posts. >> >> > My post were not made to pick a fight but rather to inform and demolish >> > the wrong assumptions that other languages CANNOT DO live coding. >> >> Well, many of them kinda can. >> But you see, when live coding is an afterthought, problems appear here and >> there, and some of them are unsolvable. Up to the point that it's easier >> to >> do traditional development process and not bother with live coding at all. >> >> It's almost like saying that you can do point-free style functional >> programming in Python. >> Of course you can (to some extent). There is even a library for that >> (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pointfree/) >> I there much sense in it? I don't think so. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >> >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Nothing is unresovable, some problems will require a lot of more hacking sure, but Pharo VM is implemented in C (yeah I know it suppose to be smalltalk but is actually slang compiled to C) and since everything out there uses C anything out there can do live coding. You can do it in billlion diffirent ways.The question of course is then how easy to do. The answer to that is usual answer as in all things, it depends. But yes it easier indeed to do traditional level coding because lets say face, you have to be aware of the benefits of live coding and you have to really try it beforehand. Plus the idea of having to move a finger to make live coding work properly on the language of choice is less than appealing to most developers. Take for example your instance update problem, you can resolve it 2 ways, python allows you to copy the data of an instance to another in a form of a dictionary or you can exchange live methods between old a new instances in frankenstein way. You also find references and replace them real time keeping track of their object ids. I lately got an idea about a time machine live coding, live coding that does not keep alive the current data and execution but also old data and execution and allows you go backwards in time. I am inspired by implementation of backward debugging and some demos I have seen where data was visualised as it evolved with the ability to move it back in time. This is something that no language I am aware of , including Pharo offers. I am the weirdo researching live coding because after being introduced to Pharo my appetite severely increased. Pharo opened to me a world that never knew it existed. As a resulte I know learn more about language features related to live coding that I never thought it was possible. I implement my own live coding library because I want to learn more about live coding and if possible improve on it but without messing with VMs. I hope I bring some of those features back into Pharo as my giift for introducing me to such a fun way of coding. On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 12:03 PM webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws> wrote: > Calm your tits, dude. No need to use Caps Lock that much :-) > > I made no value judgements in my post, letting readers decide for > themselves. > Nor did I attribute any claims to you. Except "live coding in Python is > easy", which you did say in some earlier posts. > > > My post were not made to pick a fight but rather to inform and demolish > > the wrong assumptions that other languages CANNOT DO live coding. > > Well, many of them kinda can. > But you see, when live coding is an afterthought, problems appear here and > there, and some of them are unsolvable. Up to the point that it's easier to > do traditional development process and not bother with live coding at all. > > It's almost like saying that you can do point-free style functional > programming in Python. > Of course you can (to some extent). There is even a library for that > (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pointfree/) > I there much sense in it? I don't think so. > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

I would love to. As soon as I finish my PhD (that has become my "anguished motto") I will have time for this community endeavors again. Cheers, Offray On 10/10/17 14:02, Stephane Ducasse wrote: > Thanks offray. > I would love to have spanish subtitles. > We will have japanese subtitles > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas > <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: >> Probably is a English native speaker. It really amuse me the amount of >> complain about this. Is something like, please don't show me anything other >> cultures, even if I just need to turn on captions and read(!), like most of >> us did to learn English by ourselves. Whenever I have the opportunity, I see >> movies in their native language and just add subtitles, to lost less in >> translation. Yes, English is the third most spread language and is good for >> intercultural communication, because is the most spread *second* language, >> but sadly, most English native speaker don't even bother about experience >> the minimum of other language and cultures, beyond the "tourist package" and >> even hear another language seems too much effort. Fortunately there is a >> minority of native English speakers that thinks different. >> >> Thanks for the voice translation. It improves a course that was already good >> and totally doable with subtitles. >> >> Keep the good work. Cheers, >> >> Offray >> >> >> On 10/10/17 08:05, Serge Stinckwich wrote: >> >> The MOOC is completely dubbed in English this year, so you don't need >> subtitles. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 1:07 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> Somebody posted this about the Pharo MOOC: >>> >>> https://medium.com/@josephshirk/it-would-be-nice-if-it-were-in-english-b07f… >>> >>> To which I responded: >>> >>> https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-videos-are-like-lecturers-in-university-… >>> >>> Some food for thought. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> >> >> >> -- >> Serge Stinckwich >> UCN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) >> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk >> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ >> >> >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Embedded PDF viewer?

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

I have been thinking about this. I don't know if you can have a VNC client inside the image that can be used to render a PDF app, but that would be my first approach, to leverage all the features in the current PDF readers. Cheers, Offray On 10/10/17 14:04, Stephane Ducasse wrote: > Hi manuel > > So far I do not know if we have this is Pharo. > I imagine that we would have to build a renderer once we will have the > PDF reader from Christian library. > > Stef > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 8:58 PM, Manuel Leuenberger > <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I want to view a PDF within Pharo. I found that Athens has a PDF canvas, but I have no idea how to use it. Is there a way to view a PDF within Pharo, so that I can scroll, zoom, click links etc. in the PDF? >> >> Cheers, >> Manuel >> >> >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Gour

On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:31:55 +0200 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: Hello Stef, > I will ask one guy thursday and let you know. Thanks a lot! > We will release Mooc with english voices (not mine else english > natives would get an heart attack - I have what they call a sexy > french accents ;) I did watch few of your Pharo-related presentations and, although not native, happily survived. :-) Moreover, I'd say that your English is charming! At least, one is sure that the real human is speaking and not some "robot" put on auto-pilot, so if the new Mooc is going to be the same as the current/old one, I'd prefer to download the current files and watched them along with *.srt subtitles? Iow. my point is that the accent is just one part of the talk/teaching, but the energy behind it is much more imporant - this is, my conviction, based on my own teaching experiences. Sincerely, Gour -- >From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool.

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Brad Selfridge

OMG!!! "sexy french accents" - you are too much!!!! ----- Brad Selfridge -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Stephane Ducasse

Hi Gour I do not know. I'm (I neeeeeeeed time) working on a starterKit to be shipped on USB and this script could be used to download during the night the mooc. I also asked Inria if I could use a bittorrent to share the mooc. I do not think that our servers have a ftp access from outside (I cannot upload file when I'm not under our vpn). I'm make a replication on a private provider but I do not know yet how to give access. I will ask one guy thursday and let you know. Stef We will release Mooc with english voices (not mine else english natives would get an heart attack - I have what they call a sexy french accents ;) On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 9:07 PM, Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:02:31 +0200 > Stephane Ducasse > <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thanks offray. >> I would love to have spanish subtitles. >> We will have japanese subtitles > > Is there possibility to access MOOC files via FTP which should be better > interface when one has to donwload many files (I do not use any HTTP download > manager)? > > > Sincerely, > Gour > > p.s. I don't mind about French speakers and/or English subtitles being thankful > that MOOC is available at all freely! > > -- > Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. > Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. > The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because > they have seen the truth. > > >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Stephane Ducasse

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 3:58 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. Personally, I > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep it > current) reference page for the class library, something that developers can > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo comes > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as possible to > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). This is why I started to comment even the classes that we all know You see having a lovely comment on Association, Array, OrderedCollection with all the love we can is the best welcoming. > > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very inefficient. > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods are > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just barely > useful). Totally agree. Now the good aspect is that ANY pharoers can help making such class/method comments great. It takes 5 to 10 min. And I started to add executable examples " 3 + 2 >>> 5 " > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In fact, > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle to > Pharo acceptance. In the past we generate a javadoc but nobody looked at it. > > > > horrido wrote >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following paragraph: >> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to adapt to >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa >> 1980â1990), >> people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. Thatâs >> why >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had retired >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN scientific >> programming. >> >> >> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >>>> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve checked >>>> some >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. Of >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official programming >>>> guide >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from a >>>> language. >>>> >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >>>> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: >>>> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference documentation for >>>> the >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >>>> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not >>>> even >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? >>> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, >>> method, >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a very >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is actually >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >>> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that take >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and many >>> more. >>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Stephane Ducasse

Which reminds me a guy that I tried to convince that become: is not the same as changeClassToThatOf: but he was super smart and knew so this is written in his super smart paper and I smile still now thinking about it. On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:39 AM, Denis Kudriashov <dionisiydk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Dimitris. > > You opinion about live programming reminds me the common sentence from > developers who don't care about languages at all. Usual argument is: they > all are Turing complete, so who cares. > > 2017-10-10 11:02 GMT+02:00 webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws>: >> >> Calm your tits, dude. No need to use Caps Lock that much :-) >> >> I made no value judgements in my post, letting readers decide for >> themselves. >> Nor did I attribute any claims to you. Except "live coding in Python is >> easy", which you did say in some earlier posts. >> >> > My post were not made to pick a fight but rather to inform and demolish >> > the wrong assumptions that other languages CANNOT DO live coding. >> >> Well, many of them kinda can. >> But you see, when live coding is an afterthought, problems appear here and >> there, and some of them are unsolvable. Up to the point that it's easier >> to >> do traditional development process and not bother with live coding at all. >> >> It's almost like saying that you can do point-free style functional >> programming in Python. >> Of course you can (to some extent). There is even a library for that >> (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pointfree/) >> I there much sense in it? I don't think so. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Stephane Ducasse

Webwarrior I can tell you that you made my day :) Thanks for this great testimony. Today we discuss about Pablo because he has a working system being able to upload hot code and migrate instance but also the code on the stack. We will see if we integrate it in Pharo but I want the best hot code loader ever and be able to update the updater while running the updater. Then we want to have a context aware version of this one where you can apply a change that break the UI and revert it. Stef On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 7:05 PM, webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws> wrote: > kilon.alios wrote >> Care to explain what difficulty you experienced in live coding with >> Python. >> Or what Pharo can do that Python canât live code wise ? Maybe I will learn >> something. > > It's funny that one of main reasons why I discovered and started using Pharo > was failure to get live coding working for Python (Jython in particular). > > And now time after time kilon.alios states that live coding in Python is > "easy" and no big deal. > > I will tell you, Pharoers, about code reloading in Python, and let you > decide for yourselves how it compares to Pharo. > > > Out of the box in Python you can execute some Python code and reload modules > with reload() function. > > What reload() does is it reads code from file (in Python each source file > corresponds to module), executes it, and replaces reference to [that module] > in current module. > From that moment, any code in current module, when referencing reloaded > module, will point to new version of it. > > All implicitly imported names will (like from foo import bar, from foo > import *, etc.) will point to old version. Also all other modules except > current will not be affected. > > There are, however, third-party libraries, that take care of it. > > But that's not all. All instances and subclasses of old classes will point > to old versions of classes. > To counter that, instead of replacing old module you could replace its > contents by newer variables/functions and patch classes by replacing their > contents. > Some third-party libraries do that. > > That's still not all. If you store references to functions/methods/classes, > that references will point to old versions. > reimport library takes care of that, but it uses implementation-specific > feature of CPython's GC, which lets you get all references to some object. > Unfortunately, it doesn't work in Jython, and probably in other alternative > Python implementations. > > But wait, what if you rename a class or function, or change its base > class(-es)? > You're out of luck. Theoretically you could handle such change if recent > code change consists of a single rename, but that's it. > > I may have missed some other edge cases and haven't talked about tools > support, but I hope you get the idea. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Gour

On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:02:31 +0200 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks offray. > I would love to have spanish subtitles. > We will have japanese subtitles Is there possibility to access MOOC files via FTP which should be better interface when one has to donwload many files (I do not use any HTTP download manager)? Sincerely, Gour p.s. I don't mind about French speakers and/or English subtitles being thankful that MOOC is available at all freely! -- Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth.

Oct. 10, 2017

Custom URI scheme for Pharo

by Manuel Leuenberger

Hi, Is there any support from the VM/Application package to add custom URI schemes to listen to from within Pharo? I would like to have a hyperlink like âpharo://send?data=fancypantsâ <pharo://send?data=fancypants%E2%80%99> in an arbitrary document that, when clicked, switches to Pharo and calls a hook I can register. Could someone give me a hint how to achieve that, or do I have to build a little bridge application that handles the scheme registration and talks with Pharo through another channel? Currently, I only need this for OS X. Cheers, Manuel

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Embedded PDF viewer?

by Stephane Ducasse

Hi manuel So far I do not know if we have this is Pharo. I imagine that we would have to build a renderer once we will have the PDF reader from Christian library. Stef On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 8:58 PM, Manuel Leuenberger <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch> wrote: > Hi, > > I want to view a PDF within Pharo. I found that Athens has a PDF canvas, but I have no idea how to use it. Is there a way to view a PDF within Pharo, so that I can scroll, zoom, click links etc. in the PDF? > > Cheers, > Manuel > >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Stephane Ducasse

Thanks offray. I would love to have spanish subtitles. We will have japanese subtitles On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > Probably is a English native speaker. It really amuse me the amount of > complain about this. Is something like, please don't show me anything other > cultures, even if I just need to turn on captions and read(!), like most of > us did to learn English by ourselves. Whenever I have the opportunity, I see > movies in their native language and just add subtitles, to lost less in > translation. Yes, English is the third most spread language and is good for > intercultural communication, because is the most spread *second* language, > but sadly, most English native speaker don't even bother about experience > the minimum of other language and cultures, beyond the "tourist package" and > even hear another language seems too much effort. Fortunately there is a > minority of native English speakers that thinks different. > > Thanks for the voice translation. It improves a course that was already good > and totally doable with subtitles. > > Keep the good work. Cheers, > > Offray > > > On 10/10/17 08:05, Serge Stinckwich wrote: > > The MOOC is completely dubbed in English this year, so you don't need > subtitles. > > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 1:07 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Somebody posted this about the Pharo MOOC: >> >> https://medium.com/@josephshirk/it-would-be-nice-if-it-were-in-english-b07f… >> >> To which I responded: >> >> https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-videos-are-like-lecturers-in-university-… >> >> Some food for thought. >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > > > > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UCN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ > >

Oct. 10, 2017

Embedded PDF viewer?

by Manuel Leuenberger

Hi, I want to view a PDF within Pharo. I found that Athens has a PDF canvas, but I have no idea how to use it. Is there a way to view a PDF within Pharo, so that I can scroll, zoom, click links etc. in the PDF? Cheers, Manuel

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Stephane Ducasse

Hi christophe This is why we worked (but never released) on silent Pharo. Stef On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Christophe Demarey <christophe.demarey(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Le 7 oct. 2017 Ã 14:26, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> a Ã©crit : > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Just starting pharolauncher on windows still does not work (if you put it >> into the default "program" folder). >> On start, it tries to create a local direcitory "pharo-local" and does not >> have the permission to do so. >> You need to start it with admin-rights. > > > Why are we making it harder for Windows users in corporate environments by > requiring them to have admin-rights they often won't have, while in Linux > PharoLancher is installed into user folders? > > > Â« Program Â» folder is the default location where to install apps on Windows. > If a user does not have admin rights, he can simply install it under its > home directory. > > Also there is the UAC Virtualization fiasco that complicates installing > upgrades. > http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-January/091… > > Could we *please* install Windows PharoLauncher into user folders? > > > Users can choose to install Pharo Launcher where they wish. > We could choose another default location but not sure it is best option. > > To me, the real problem is: why does Pharo apps (and Pharo Launcher) needs > to write data in the application directory? By example, for Pharo Launcher, > we do not need to load any code nor to backup sessions.

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Vitor Medina Cruz

Ok, the executable is just a zip, why not distribute it as a zip? On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 2:00 PM, Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Â« Program Â» folder is the default location where to install apps on >> Windows. >> If a user does not have admin rights, he can simply install it under its >> home directory. >> >> Also there is the UAC Virtualization fiasco that complicates installing >> upgrades. >> http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/ >> 2014-January/091645.html >> >> >> >> Could we *please* install Windows PharoLauncher into user folders? >> >> >> >> Users can choose to install Pharo Launcher where they wish. >> We could choose another default location but not sure it is best option. >> > > Nope, I donât have any option of changing Pharo launcher installation. I > double click the exe and receive a message telling me I need administrative > rights. Can this be changed? Itâs a deal breaker for those using Windows. > > > On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Peter UhnÃ¡k <i.uhnak(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> why a step backwards? >>> Pharo images are not *data* in the sense is intended for XDG_DATA_HOME. >>> In practice, an image is more like a document Pharo can readâ¦ data >>> files are configurations, etc. an app needs to work properly in the local >>> environment. >>> Pharo images instead, are modifiable/editable/whatever euphemism you want >>> â¦ thatâs why we considered more like VMWare considers their Virtual >>> Machines, then they belong to some place in the home directory that is of >>> easy access. >>> >> >> I guess I hate when applications are throwing their garbage into my $HOME >> (this also goes for VirtualBox, Eclipse, and everyone else). >> If I am not accessing the files directly, but they are pretty much always >> managed by some other applications, then for me they are polluting $HOME. >> (And yes, I sometimes do launch to image by hand, or manipulate VirtualBox >> by hand, but that doesn't change the fact that it is not the primary way to >> work with it.) >> >> But no worries, I rest my case and I patch it for myself. (So no need to >> add configuration for this either.) >> >> Peter >> > >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Vitor Medina Cruz

> > Â« Program Â» folder is the default location where to install apps on > Windows. > If a user does not have admin rights, he can simply install it under its > home directory. > > Also there is the UAC Virtualization fiasco that complicates installing > upgrades. > http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists. > pharo.org/2014-January/091645.html > > > > Could we *please* install Windows PharoLauncher into user folders? > > > > Users can choose to install Pharo Launcher where they wish. > We could choose another default location but not sure it is best option. > Nope, I donât have any option of changing Pharo launcher installation. I double click the exe and receive a message telling me I need administrative rights. Can this be changed? Itâs a deal breaker for those using Windows. On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Peter UhnÃ¡k <i.uhnak(a)gmail.com> wrote: > why a step backwards? >> Pharo images are not *data* in the sense is intended for XDG_DATA_HOME. >> In practice, an image is more like a document Pharo can readâ¦ data files >> are configurations, etc. an app needs to work properly in the local >> environment. >> Pharo images instead, are modifiable/editable/whatever euphemism you want >> â¦ thatâs why we considered more like VMWare considers their Virtual >> Machines, then they belong to some place in the home directory that is of >> easy access. >> > > I guess I hate when applications are throwing their garbage into my $HOME > (this also goes for VirtualBox, Eclipse, and everyone else). > If I am not accessing the files directly, but they are pretty much always > managed by some other applications, then for me they are polluting $HOME. > (And yes, I sometimes do launch to image by hand, or manipulate VirtualBox > by hand, but that doesn't change the fact that it is not the primary way to > work with it.) > > But no worries, I rest my case and I patch it for myself. (So no need to > add configuration for this either.) > > Peter >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by phil＠highoctane.be

A Bluebook updated picture would be great. And I am sure Roassal could produce it right away. Phil On Oct 10, 2017 15:58, "horrido" <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. Personally, I > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep it > current) reference page for the class library, something that developers > can > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo comes > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as possible to > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). > > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very inefficient. > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods are > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just > barely > useful). > > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In fact, > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle to > Pharo acceptance. > > > > horrido wrote > > Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following > paragraph: > > > > The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather > > closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to adapt to > > new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa > > 1980â1990), > > people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. Thatâs > > why > > I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had retired > > from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN > scientific > > programming. > > > > > > > > Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > >>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < > > > >> horrido.hobbies@ > > > >> > wrote: > >>> > >>> I received this comment from someone who complained: > >>> > >>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve checked > >>> some > >>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. Of > >>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official programming > >>> guide > >>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from a > >>> language. > >>> > >>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* > >>> > >>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: > >>> > >>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference documentation > for > >>> the > >>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python > >>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* > >>> > >>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not > >>> even > >>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? > >> > >> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running > >> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, > >> method, > >> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a very > >> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is > actually > >> better and much more powerful than any alternative. > >> > >> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that take > >> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is > >> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, > >> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and > many > >> more. > >> > >>> Thanks. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > >

Oct. 10, 2017

[Off topic] Re: FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Ben Coman

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 9:19 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > Probably is a English native speaker. > Next they'll be asking to covert the example from kilometres to miles ;) cheers -ben > It really amuse me the amount of complain about this. Is something like, > please don't show me anything other cultures, even if I just need to turn > on captions and read(!), like most of us did to learn English by ourselves. > Its the downside of being a native english speaker. There is less need to learn a second language. Thus we go crazy earlier while all you non-native english speakers continue to take over the world... https://www.livescience.com/12917-learning-language-bilingual-protects-alzh… cheers -ben > Whenever I have the opportunity, I see movies in their native language and > just add subtitles, to lost less in translation. Yes, English is the third > most spread language and is good for intercultural communication, because > is the most spread *second* language, but sadly, most English native > speaker don't even bother about experience the minimum of other language > and cultures, beyond the "tourist package" and even hear another language > seems too much effort. Fortunately there is a minority of native English > speakers that thinks different. > > Thanks for the voice translation. It improves a course that was already > good and totally doable with subtitles. > > Keep the good work. Cheers, > > Offray > > On 10/10/17 08:05, Serge Stinckwich wrote: > > The MOOC is completely dubbed in English this year, so you don't need > subtitles. > > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 1:07 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Somebody posted this about the Pharo MOOC: >> https://medium.com/@josephshirk/it-would-be-nice-if-it-were- >> in-english-b07f6445f23 >> >> To which I responded: >> https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-videos-are-like- >> lecturers-in-university-49a68c23cf01 >> >> Some food for thought. >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >> > > > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UCN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ > > >

Oct. 10, 2017

Error loading Seaside Gettext support

by dario.trussardi＠tiscali.it

Ciao, Â Â Â i load correctly the Gettext support into:Â Â Â Pharo 6.1-64 Latest update: #60510 Â Â Â In the image was load the Seaside 3.2 Â Â Â Now i do: Â Â Â (ConfigurationOfSeaside3 project version: #stable ) Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â load: #( 'Seaside-Gettext-Core' 'Seaside-Gettext-Examples'). Â Â Â The system erase the error: NaturalLanguageTranslator class(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #domainRegistered: TextDomainManager class>>registerDomain: [ self registerDomain: domainName ] in TextDomainManager class>>domainInfoFor: in Block: [ self registerDomain: domainName ] [ self at: key put: aBlock value ] in Dictionary>>at:ifAbsentPut: in Block: [ self at: key put: aBlock value ] Dictionary>>at:ifAbsent: Dictionary>>at:ifAbsentPut: TextDomainManager class>>domainInfoFor: TextDomainManager class>>registerCategoryPrefix:domain: WAGettextExample class>>register WAGettextExample class>>initialize Â Â Â Some considerations ? Â Â Â Thanks, Â Â Â Â Â Â Dario

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by horrido

Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. Personally, I think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep it current) reference page for the class library, something that developers can easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo comes from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as possible to less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very inefficient. This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods are simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just barely useful). I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In fact, it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle to Pharo acceptance. horrido wrote > Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following paragraph: > > The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather > closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to adapt to > new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa > 1980â1990), > people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. Thatâs > why > I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had retired > from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN scientific > programming. > > > > Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < > >> horrido.hobbies@ > >> > wrote: >>> >>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >>> >>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve checked >>> some >>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. Of >>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official programming >>> guide >>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from a >>> language. >>> >>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >>> >>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: >>> >>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference documentation for >>> the >>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python >>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >>> >>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not >>> even >>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? >> >> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running >> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, >> method, >> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a very >> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is actually >> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >> >> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that take >> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and many >> more. >> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Probably is a English native speaker. It really amuse me the amount of complain about this. Is something like, please don't show me anything other cultures, even if I just need to turn on captions and read(!), like most of us did to learn English by ourselves. Whenever I have the opportunity, I see movies in their native language and just add subtitles, to lost less in translation. Yes, English is the third most spread language and is good for intercultural communication, because is the most spread *second* language, but sadly, most English native speaker don't even bother about experience the minimum of other language and cultures, beyond the "tourist package" and even hear another language seems too much effort. Fortunately there is a minority of native English speakers that thinks different. Thanks for the voice translation. It improves a course that was already good and totally doable with subtitles. Keep the good work. Cheers, Offray On 10/10/17 08:05, Serge Stinckwich wrote: > The MOOC is completely dubbed in English this year, so you don't need > subtitles. > > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 1:07 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com > <mailto:horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Somebody posted this about the Pharo MOOC: > https://medium.com/@josephshirk/it-would-be-nice-if-it-were-in-english-b07f… > <https://medium.com/@josephshirk/it-would-be-nice-if-it-were-in-english-b07f…> > > To which I responded: > https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-videos-are-like-lecturers-in-university-… > <https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-videos-are-like-lecturers-in-university-…> > > Some food for thought. > > > > -- > Sent from: > http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html> > > > > > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UCN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) > Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk > http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Serge Stinckwich

The MOOC is completely dubbed in English this year, so you don't need subtitles. On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 1:07 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Somebody posted this about the Pharo MOOC: > https://medium.com/@josephshirk/it-would-be-nice-if-it-were-in-english- > b07f6445f23 > > To which I responded: > https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-videos-are- > like-lecturers-in-university-49a68c23cf01 > > Some food for thought. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > -- Serge Stinckwich UCN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] how to update a pane in a customized inspector

by Steven Costiou

It works :) Thanks :) Yes that is the video i was looking for :) Le 2017-10-10 13:26, Andrei Chis a Ã©crit : > Hi, > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I am trying to customize an inspector with a code browser, and I have in a compose method of my own browser the following: >> >> [...] >> >> browser transmit >> from: #methods; >> fromOutsidePort: #entity; >> to: #source; >> when: [ :method | method notNil ]; >> andShow: [ :a :method :object | self sourceOf: method for: object in: a ]. >> >> browser transmit >> from: #links; >> fromOutsidePort: #entity; >> to: #selectedLink; >> when: [ :link | link notNil ]; >> andShow: [ :a :link | self inspectSelectedLink: link inPresenter: a ]. >> >> [...] >> >> Is there an easy way to update the #source pane whenever one of my links is selected in my #link pane ? >> >> In my case, the source code is displayed first, and when i select a link in the #link pane i want to highlight specific parts of this source code and the easiest way would be to re-trigger the first block above. I did not try it, but it seems that i could retrieve the #source pane and the selected method manually and re-trigger the method from the second block (i.e. when a link is selected), but i am not sure that is the right way to do it... > > If you know the interval that you want to highlight when selecting a link, you can create a transmission from the #selection port of the #link pane to the #selectionInterval port of the #source pane. If you go to GLMBasicExamples, textPortsExamples and textSelection show how to use the selectionInterval port. > >> Also i was wondering if there was a video of the moldable inspector tutorial from pharo days 17 somewhere on the web, because i did not find it on youtube. > Not sure if the Pharo Days videos are available but you can see the same presentation from ESUG here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj5IWvAYSlw > > Cheers, > Andrei

Oct. 10, 2017

FYI about Pharo MOOC

by horrido

Somebody posted this about the Pharo MOOC: https://medium.com/@josephshirk/it-would-be-nice-if-it-were-in-english-b07f… To which I responded: https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-videos-are-like-lecturers-in-university-… Some food for thought. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] how to update a pane in a customized inspector

by Andrei Chis

Hi, On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:31 AM, Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io> wrote: > Hi, > > I am trying to customize an inspector with a code browser, and I have in a > compose method of my own browser the following: > > [...] > > browser transmit > from: #methods; > fromOutsidePort: #entity; > to: #source; > when: [ :method | method notNil ]; > andShow: [ :a :method :object | self sourceOf: method for: > object in: a ]. > > browser transmit > from: #links; > fromOutsidePort: #entity; > to: #selectedLink; > when: [ :link | link notNil ]; > andShow: [ :a :link | self inspectSelectedLink: link > inPresenter: a ]. > > [...] > > Is there an easy way to update the #source pane whenever one of my links > is selected in my #link pane ? > > In my case, the source code is displayed first, and when i select a link > in the #link pane i want to highlight specific parts of this source code > and the easiest way would be to re-trigger the first block above. I did not > try it, but it seems that i could retrieve the #source pane and the > selected method manually and re-trigger the method from the second block > (i.e. when a link is selected), but i am not sure that is the right way to > do it... > If you know the interval that you want to highlight when selecting a link, you can create a transmission from the #selection port of the #link pane to the #selectionInterval port of the #source pane. If you go to GLMBasicExamples, textPortsExamples and textSelection show how to use the selectionInterval port. > > > Also i was wondering if there was a video of the moldable inspector > tutorial from pharo days 17 somewhere on the web, because i did not find it > on youtube. > Not sure if the Pharo Days videos are available but you can see the same presentation from ESUG here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wj5IWvAYSlw Cheers, Andrei

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Sean P. DeNigris

kilon.alios wrote > itâs clear the community is unwilling to deal with such discussions. I wouldn't say that... after all this thread has the most posts on this list since January 21 ;) I personally learned a lot and was glad to hear all the points. I thought the last two pretty much captured the situation, which is that you *can* do live programming in other languages, but the advantage of Pharo is that it's *about* live programming. I certainly didn't know it was even possible in some of the other languages mentioned. Yet, practically, it seems extremely difficult for a system that tacks something on as a feature to compete with a system that values that thing at its core. Ironically, the biggest barrier seems to be human, in the McLuhan sense that our medium determines how/what we can think/say. I feel lucky to have discovered Smalltalk and have cast off (most) of the brain damage from C and C++ ha ha. ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Denis Kudriashov

Hi Dimitris. You opinion about live programming reminds me the common sentence from developers who don't care about languages at all. Usual argument is: they all are Turing complete, so who cares. 2017-10-10 11:02 GMT+02:00 webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws>: > Calm your tits, dude. No need to use Caps Lock that much :-) > > I made no value judgements in my post, letting readers decide for > themselves. > Nor did I attribute any claims to you. Except "live coding in Python is > easy", which you did say in some earlier posts. > > > My post were not made to pick a fight but rather to inform and demolish > > the wrong assumptions that other languages CANNOT DO live coding. > > Well, many of them kinda can. > But you see, when live coding is an afterthought, problems appear here and > there, and some of them are unsolvable. Up to the point that it's easier to > do traditional development process and not bother with live coding at all. > > It's almost like saying that you can do point-free style functional > programming in Python. > Of course you can (to some extent). There is even a library for that > (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pointfree/) > I there much sense in it? I don't think so. > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

Oct. 10, 2017

how to update a pane in a customized inspector

by Steven Costiou

Hi, I am trying to customize an inspector with a code browser, and I have in a compose method of my own browser the following: [...] browser transmit from: #methods; fromOutsidePort: #entity; to: #source; when: [ :method | method notNil ]; andShow: [ :a :method :object | self sourceOf: method for: object in: a ]. browser transmit from: #links; fromOutsidePort: #entity; to: #selectedLink; when: [ :link | link notNil ]; andShow: [ :a :link | self inspectSelectedLink: link inPresenter: a ]. [...] Is there an easy way to update the #source pane whenever one of my links is selected in my #link pane ? In my case, the source code is displayed first, and when i select a link in the #link pane i want to highlight specific parts of this source code and the easiest way would be to re-trigger the first block above. I did not try it, but it seems that i could retrieve the #source pane and the selected method manually and re-trigger the method from the second block (i.e. when a link is selected), but i am not sure that is the right way to do it... Also i was wondering if there was a video of the moldable inspector tutorial from pharo days 17 somewhere on the web, because i did not find it on youtube.

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by webwarrior

Calm your tits, dude. No need to use Caps Lock that much :-) I made no value judgements in my post, letting readers decide for themselves. Nor did I attribute any claims to you. Except "live coding in Python is easy", which you did say in some earlier posts. > My post were not made to pick a fight but rather to inform and demolish > the wrong assumptions that other languages CANNOT DO live coding. Well, many of them kinda can. But you see, when live coding is an afterthought, problems appear here and there, and some of them are unsolvable. Up to the point that it's easier to do traditional development process and not bother with live coding at all. It's almost like saying that you can do point-free style functional programming in Python. Of course you can (to some extent). There is even a library for that (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pointfree/) I there much sense in it? I don't think so. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

And not to worry I wonât bother with discussing such issues again itâs clear the community is unwilling to deal with such discussions. I have no problem with that , itâs a free world. On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 at 03:41, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I never claimed that Python , which refers to CPython to the vast majority > of python coders, is offering live coding out of the box. The fact that you > have to reload modules manually would make such claims ridiculous. > > From the very first post I was crystal clear that there is a need for > creating a library that handles live coding for you and gave general > instructions of what this library will have to do. > > My claim is that Python and other languages CAN do live coding. > > I NEVER claimed also that Python is a live coding environment which it > stores in an image format. In short Python IS NOT Pharo. Period. > > Can python reload modules ? Yes > Can python trigger the debugger in case of error ? Yes > Can python replace methods and variables during execution ? Yes > Can python recompile individual methods and classes and replace their > previous instances ? Yes > Can python make you coffee ? Nope > Etc etc > > Depending how deep you want to go live coding wise your live coding > library will enlarge. > > From my experience around 100 lines of code are enough to offer most of > Pharoâs basic live coding functionality. Such task that needs to happen > only once and then simply reused in each project that wants to utilize live > coding , for my standards it is easy. It wonât be easy for a beginner > python coder cause he may not even know what OOP is. So obviously I am > referring to experienced coders. It wonât be easy if you want to fully > replicate Pharoâs live coding capabilities , because you will Definetly go > way beyond 100 lines. > > > I stated this before and I will state this again Pharo IS HANDS DOWN THE > BEST LIVE CODING ENVIRONMENT I have ever used. > > My point is that other languages CAN do what Pharo does. Even though they > are NOT live coding environments. They just have the features to be live > coding environments. > > Jython has had a lot of problems using CPython libraries, live coding is > the least of its problems. This is the reason CPython has almost the > monopoly of python coding. > > I just donât like it when other languages are illustrated as garbage and > Pharo as the holy grail. They all have their pros and cons. > > Canât help with Jython , I used it on the premise that I may need Java > libraries, I ended up finding what I wanted in CPython and have not touched > it since. > > My post were not made to pick a fight but rather to inform and demolish > the wrong assumptions that other languages CANNOT DO live coding. > > > If we are to compare them the least we can do is do it in a fair and > sincere way. > On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 at 20:06, webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws> wrote: > >> kilon.alios wrote >> > Care to explain what difficulty you experienced in live coding with >> > Python. >> > Or what Pharo can do that Python canât live code wise ? Maybe I will >> learn >> > something. >> >> It's funny that one of main reasons why I discovered and started using >> Pharo >> was failure to get live coding working for Python (Jython in particular). >> >> And now time after time kilon.alios states that live coding in Python is >> "easy" and no big deal. >> >> I will tell you, Pharoers, about code reloading in Python, and let you >> decide for yourselves how it compares to Pharo. >> >> >> Out of the box in Python you can execute some Python code and reload >> modules >> with reload() function. >> >> What reload() does is it reads code from file (in Python each source file >> corresponds to module), executes it, and replaces reference to [that >> module] >> in current module. >> From that moment, any code in current module, when referencing reloaded >> module, will point to new version of it. >> >> All implicitly imported names will (like from foo import bar, from foo >> import *, etc.) will point to old version. Also all other modules except >> current will not be affected. >> >> There are, however, third-party libraries, that take care of it. >> >> But that's not all. All instances and subclasses of old classes will point >> to old versions of classes. >> To counter that, instead of replacing old module you could replace its >> contents by newer variables/functions and patch classes by replacing their >> contents. >> Some third-party libraries do that. >> >> That's still not all. If you store references to >> functions/methods/classes, >> that references will point to old versions. >> reimport library takes care of that, but it uses implementation-specific >> feature of CPython's GC, which lets you get all references to some object. >> Unfortunately, it doesn't work in Jython, and probably in other >> alternative >> Python implementations. >> >> But wait, what if you rename a class or function, or change its base >> class(-es)? >> You're out of luck. Theoretically you could handle such change if recent >> code change consists of a single rename, but that's it. >> >> I may have missed some other edge cases and haven't talked about tools >> support, but I hope you get the idea. >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >>

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

I never claimed that Python , which refers to CPython to the vast majority of python coders, is offering live coding out of the box. The fact that you have to reload modules manually would make such claims ridiculous. >From the very first post I was crystal clear that there is a need for creating a library that handles live coding for you and gave general instructions of what this library will have to do. My claim is that Python and other languages CAN do live coding. I NEVER claimed also that Python is a live coding environment which it stores in an image format. In short Python IS NOT Pharo. Period. Can python reload modules ? Yes Can python trigger the debugger in case of error ? Yes Can python replace methods and variables during execution ? Yes Can python recompile individual methods and classes and replace their previous instances ? Yes Can python make you coffee ? Nope Etc etc Depending how deep you want to go live coding wise your live coding library will enlarge. >From my experience around 100 lines of code are enough to offer most of Pharoâs basic live coding functionality. Such task that needs to happen only once and then simply reused in each project that wants to utilize live coding , for my standards it is easy. It wonât be easy for a beginner python coder cause he may not even know what OOP is. So obviously I am referring to experienced coders. It wonât be easy if you want to fully replicate Pharoâs live coding capabilities , because you will Definetly go way beyond 100 lines. I stated this before and I will state this again Pharo IS HANDS DOWN THE BEST LIVE CODING ENVIRONMENT I have ever used. My point is that other languages CAN do what Pharo does. Even though they are NOT live coding environments. They just have the features to be live coding environments. Jython has had a lot of problems using CPython libraries, live coding is the least of its problems. This is the reason CPython has almost the monopoly of python coding. I just donât like it when other languages are illustrated as garbage and Pharo as the holy grail. They all have their pros and cons. Canât help with Jython , I used it on the premise that I may need Java libraries, I ended up finding what I wanted in CPython and have not touched it since. My post were not made to pick a fight but rather to inform and demolish the wrong assumptions that other languages CANNOT DO live coding. If we are to compare them the least we can do is do it in a fair and sincere way. On Mon, 9 Oct 2017 at 20:06, webwarrior <reg(a)webwarrior.ws> wrote: > kilon.alios wrote > > Care to explain what difficulty you experienced in live coding with > > Python. > > Or what Pharo can do that Python canât live code wise ? Maybe I will > learn > > something. > > It's funny that one of main reasons why I discovered and started using > Pharo > was failure to get live coding working for Python (Jython in particular). > > And now time after time kilon.alios states that live coding in Python is > "easy" and no big deal. > > I will tell you, Pharoers, about code reloading in Python, and let you > decide for yourselves how it compares to Pharo. > > > Out of the box in Python you can execute some Python code and reload > modules > with reload() function. > > What reload() does is it reads code from file (in Python each source file > corresponds to module), executes it, and replaces reference to [that > module] > in current module. > From that moment, any code in current module, when referencing reloaded > module, will point to new version of it. > > All implicitly imported names will (like from foo import bar, from foo > import *, etc.) will point to old version. Also all other modules except > current will not be affected. > > There are, however, third-party libraries, that take care of it. > > But that's not all. All instances and subclasses of old classes will point > to old versions of classes. > To counter that, instead of replacing old module you could replace its > contents by newer variables/functions and patch classes by replacing their > contents. > Some third-party libraries do that. > > That's still not all. If you store references to functions/methods/classes, > that references will point to old versions. > reimport library takes care of that, but it uses implementation-specific > feature of CPython's GC, which lets you get all references to some object. > Unfortunately, it doesn't work in Jython, and probably in other alternative > Python implementations. > > But wait, what if you rename a class or function, or change its base > class(-es)? > You're out of luck. Theoretically you could handle such change if recent > code change consists of a single rename, but that's it. > > I may have missed some other edge cases and haven't talked about tools > support, but I hope you get the idea. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

Oct. 10, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by webwarrior

kilon.alios wrote > Care to explain what difficulty you experienced in live coding with > Python. > Or what Pharo can do that Python canât live code wise ? Maybe I will learn > something. It's funny that one of main reasons why I discovered and started using Pharo was failure to get live coding working for Python (Jython in particular). And now time after time kilon.alios states that live coding in Python is "easy" and no big deal. I will tell you, Pharoers, about code reloading in Python, and let you decide for yourselves how it compares to Pharo. Out of the box in Python you can execute some Python code and reload modules with reload() function. What reload() does is it reads code from file (in Python each source file corresponds to module), executes it, and replaces reference to [that module] in current module. >From that moment, any code in current module, when referencing reloaded module, will point to new version of it. All implicitly imported names will (like from foo import bar, from foo import *, etc.) will point to old version. Also all other modules except current will not be affected. There are, however, third-party libraries, that take care of it. But that's not all. All instances and subclasses of old classes will point to old versions of classes. To counter that, instead of replacing old module you could replace its contents by newer variables/functions and patch classes by replacing their contents. Some third-party libraries do that. That's still not all. If you store references to functions/methods/classes, that references will point to old versions. reimport library takes care of that, but it uses implementation-specific feature of CPython's GC, which lets you get all references to some object. Unfortunately, it doesn't work in Jython, and probably in other alternative Python implementations. But wait, what if you rename a class or function, or change its base class(-es)? You're out of luck. Theoretically you could handle such change if recent code change consists of a single rename, but that's it. I may have missed some other edge cases and haven't talked about tools support, but I hope you get the idea. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 9, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Peter UhnÃ¡k

> > why a step backwards? > Pharo images are not *data* in the sense is intended for XDG_DATA_HOME. > In practice, an image is more like a document Pharo can readâ¦ data files > are configurations, etc. an app needs to work properly in the local > environment. > Pharo images instead, are modifiable/editable/whatever euphemism you wantâ¦ > thatâs why we considered more like VMWare considers their Virtual > Machines, then they belong to some place in the home directory that is of > easy access. > I guess I hate when applications are throwing their garbage into my $HOME (this also goes for VirtualBox, Eclipse, and everyone else). If I am not accessing the files directly, but they are pretty much always managed by some other applications, then for me they are polluting $HOME. (And yes, I sometimes do launch to image by hand, or manipulate VirtualBox by hand, but that doesn't change the fact that it is not the primary way to work with it.) But no worries, I rest my case and I patch it for myself. (So no need to add configuration for this either.) Peter

Oct. 9, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem with input to XML Parser - 'Invalid UTF8 encoding'

by Peter Kenny

Correction - I am misrepresenting Sven. What he said was that Zinc would not look inside the HTML <head> node to find out about coding. It would of course use information in the HTTP headers, if any. Peter Kenny wrote > Henry > > Thanks for the explanations. It's a bit clearer now. I'm still not sure > about how ZnUrl>>retrieveContents manages to decode correctly in this > case; > I'm sure I recall Sven saying it didn't (and in his view shouldn't) look > at > the HTTP declarations in the header. There is also the mystery of how the > string reader in the XML-Parser package (XMLURI>>get) does the same trick, > when it is presumably what XMLHTMLParser>>parseURL: uses and fails. > > However, all these are second order problems. It all begins because the > Corriere web site does strange things with encoding, including using a > UTF8 > character in a page coded with 8859-1, as Paul pointed out. In any case, > reading the page as a string and then parsing it solves my problem, so I > shall stick to that as a standard procedure. Most importantly, I don't > think > there is any indication of a problem in the XML package for Monty to worry > about. > > Thanks again > > Peter > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 9, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by horrido

Hey, guys, I'm mentioned in this O'Reilly newsletter <http://post.oreilly.com/form/oreilly/viewhtml/9z1zgj2l150hp80ah3enjvhjhqcnr…> !!! All because of the Pharo article. I wonder, is my campaign /actually/ succeeding? If so, I can die happy. ;-) -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 9, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem with input to XML Parser - 'Invalid UTF8 encoding'

by Peter Kenny

Henry Thanks for the explanations. It's a bit clearer now. I'm still not sure about how ZnUrl>>retrieveContents manages to decode correctly in this case; I'm sure I recall Sven saying it didn't (and in his view shouldn't) look at the HTTP declarations in the header. There is also the mystery of how the string reader in the XML-Parser package (XMLURI>>get) does the same trick, when it is presumably what XMLHTMLParser>>parseURL: uses and fails. However, all these are second order problems. It all begins because the Corriere web site does strange things with encoding, including using a UTF8 character in a page coded with 8859-1, as Paul pointed out. In any case, reading the page as a string and then parsing it solves my problem, so I shall stick to that as a standard procedure. Most importantly, I don't think there is any indication of a problem in the XML package for Monty to worry about. Thanks again Peter -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 9, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Christophe Demarey

> Le 6 oct. 2017 Ã 22:43, Gabriel Cotelli <g.cotelli(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit : > > I've tried running it from the terminal and it works!. > > If I double-click it from the file manager and choose "Run in Terminal" it gives the previously commented error. I fear I cannot do much for this problem. I tried on ubuntu and fedora to run but I have no way to run this exe directly. I have no menu Â« Run in terminal Â» . I was only able to create a launcher file (pharo.desktop). Then, by double-clicking on this launcher file, I was able to run the launcher and a pharo 6.1 image without error. Maybe the best would be to use a launcher file (exemple as attachment). Regards, Christophe

Oct. 9, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem with input to XML Parser - 'Invalid UTF8 encoding'

by Henrik Sperre Johansen

In a class named XMLHTMLParser, you may expect that logic to be expanded a bit beyond the basic XML spec though. But since there are multiple potentially correct definitions, there will always be failure cases. Not to mention, in addition to XML/HTTP, HTML4/5 also define (different) meta tags for specifying encoding (+ have different default encodings), so really, the number of potentially correct encodings is even higher. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 9, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem with input to XML Parser - 'Invalid UTF8 encoding'

by Henrik Sperre Johansen

XML expects a prolog in the document itself defining the encoding, if absent, the standard specifies utf-8. So when you use an XML parser to parse an HTML page, it will disregard any HTTP encodings, interpret the contents as an XML document with missing prolog, and try to parse as utf8. When you use ZnUrl getContents however, it respects the HTTP charset header field, which correctly identifies the contents as 8859-1, and lets you correctly read it into an internal string. Subsequently parsing said internal string, the XML parser won't try to do any conversion, and therefore works. Cheers, Henry -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 9, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem with input to XML Parser - 'Invalid UTF8 encoding'

by Peter Kenny

Note: This was sent on Sunday at 19.45 but seems to have disappeared on its way to pharo users. Re-sent just to complete the story. _____________________________________________________ Paul Good to have found the charset discrepancy - that may have something to do with it. But I don't think it has to do with the CâÃ¨ in the body of the page. I have just parsed another page published today, with the same error, and again it fails in parsing the <head> node, so it has not even reached the body. The <head> contains a meta which describes the article - a sort of paraphrase of the article headline - and it fails in the middle of decoding that. The character at which it fails is again $Â«, so that is definitely the cause. Maybe the wrong charset is the explanation of why it messes up that - but I don't know enough about the different charsets to know. Does ISO-8859-1 even contain $Â«? Peter Addendum: I have looked a bit further, and the charset problem lies behind it all. The ISO-8859-1 charset *does* include $Â«, at decimal 171 or hex AB. At the point where it fails, the parser is reading the string 'Â«B', which is hex AB 42 in ISO-8859-1, and the debugger shows that the parser is trying to decode hex AB 42 as a multibyte UTF8 character. So there are two questions remaining: (a) why does the parser try to decode it as UTF8? (b) why does reading the string in before calling the parser get round the problem? -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 9, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 9 Oct 2017, at 10:10, Christophe Demarey <Christophe.Demarey(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > Hi Peter, > >> Le 6 oct. 2017 Ã 21:13, Peter UhnÃ¡k <i.uhnak(a)gmail.com <mailto:i.uhnak@gmail.com>> a Ã©crit : >> >> +1.0.1 :-) >> >> > Pharo Launcher files (images, VMs) are now considered as user Documents (easier to find). Consequently, they are now stored in the standard documents folder, i.e. >> > $HOME/Pharo >> >> This seems like a step backwards. The expected location is $XDG_DATA_HOME/Pharo . Is it possible to change or configure this? why a step backwards? Pharo images are not *data* in the sense is intended for XDG_DATA_HOME. In practice, an image is more like a document Pharo can readâ¦ data files are configurations, etc. an app needs to work properly in the local environment. Pharo images instead, are modifiable/editable/whatever euphemism you wantâ¦ thatâs why we considered more like VMWare considers their Virtual Machines, then they belong to some place in the home directory that is of easy access. > > We decide to consider Pharo Launcher files (virtual machines, images) as user documents. Thatâs why we changed the location of these files on all platforms. > $XDG_DATA_HOME/Pharo is not a document location on linux and there is no standard Documents location. Thatâs why we ended to put Pharo Launcher files in a Pharo folder in the HOME directory. yeah, this. > Maybe it is not the best choice. I like that choice :) > > If we can find an agreement on the best Pharo Launcher documents location on Linux, it can be changed. > > You can already configure where you want to store Pharo Launcher images and vms (2 different settings). yeahâ¦ you can always customise your own working set. Esteban > > Christophe

Oct. 9, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Christophe Demarey

Hi Peter, > Le 6 oct. 2017 Ã 21:13, Peter UhnÃ¡k <i.uhnak(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit : > > +1.0.1 :-) > > > Pharo Launcher files (images, VMs) are now considered as user Documents (easier to find). Consequently, they are now stored in the standard documents folder, i.e. > > $HOME/Pharo > > This seems like a step backwards. The expected location is $XDG_DATA_HOME/Pharo . Is it possible to change or configure this? We decide to consider Pharo Launcher files (virtual machines, images) as user documents. Thatâs why we changed the location of these files on all platforms. $XDG_DATA_HOME/Pharo is not a document location on linux and there is no standard Documents location. Thatâs why we ended to put Pharo Launcher files in a Pharo folder in the HOME directory. Maybe it is not the best choice. If we can find an agreement on the best Pharo Launcher documents location on Linux, it can be changed. You can already configure where you want to store Pharo Launcher images and vms (2 different settings). Christophe

Oct. 9, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Christophe Demarey

> Le 7 oct. 2017 Ã 14:26, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> a Ã©crit : > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 3:38 PM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com <mailto:nicolaihess@gmail.com>> wrote: > Just starting pharolauncher on windows still does not work (if you put it into the default "program" folder). > On start, it tries to create a local direcitory "pharo-local" and does not have the permission to do so. > You need to start it with admin-rights. > > Why are we making it harder for Windows users in corporate environments by requiring them to have admin-rights they often won't have, while in Linux PharoLancher is installed into user folders? Â« Program Â» folder is the default location where to install apps on Windows. If a user does not have admin rights, he can simply install it under its home directory. > Also there is the UAC Virtualization fiasco that complicates installing upgrades. > http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-January/091… <http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/2014-January/091…> > > Could we *please* install Windows PharoLauncher into user folders? Users can choose to install Pharo Launcher where they wish. We could choose another default location but not sure it is best option. To me, the real problem is: why does Pharo apps (and Pharo Launcher) needs to write data in the application directory? By example, for Pharo Launcher, we do not need to load any code nor to backup sessions.

Oct. 9, 2017

Job offers

by Stephane Ducasse

Two jobs in Europe: In Le Mans France, CGI is looking for an OO developer, ideally Smalltalk. CGI is a French IT services company and works in lots of different domains. One clearly needs to be able to work in France, and, most likely in French as well. https://cgi.njoyn.com/cgi/xweb/xweb.asp?CLID=21001&page=jobdetails&JobID=J0… The second is in Kaiserslautern Germany with Bison. Bison is a Swiss and German IT services company similar in many ways to CGI above. http://jobview.monster.com/Software-Developer-m-w-Job-Kaiserslautern-Rheinl… Good Luck!

Oct. 8, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem with input to XML Parser - 'Invalid UTF8 encoding'

by PBKResearch

Paul Good to have found the charset discrepancy - that may have something to do with it. But I don't think it has to do with the CâÃ¨ in the body of the page. I have just parsed another page published today, with the same error, and again it fails in parsing the <head> node, so it has not even reached the body. The <head> contains a meta which describes the article - a sort of paraphrase of the article headline - and it fails in the middle of decoding that. The character at which it fails is again $Â«, so that is definitely the cause. Maybe the wrong charset is the explanation of why it messes up that - but I don't know enough about the different charsets to know. Does ISO-8859-1 even contain $Â«? Peter -----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of Paul DeBruicker Sent: 08 October 2017 18:41 To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem with input to XML Parser - 'Invalid UTF8 encoding' in the HEAD tag of that page with the article they declare it is ISO-8859-1 and not UTF-8. In the page they have a CâÃ¨ The little back-tick next to the C is UTF8 8217 (http://www.codetable.net/decimal/8217) So their encoding is messed up, and maybe the XMLHTMLParser should throw a warning or something if there is a mismatch. Glad you found a work around. In another thread (on SVG Icons) Sven referred to ways of getting input from a URL for XMLDOMParser. I have recently had some problems doing this. I have found a workaround, so it is not urgent, but I thought I should put it on record in case anyone else is bitten by it, and so maybe Monty can look at it. I am using the subclass XMLHTMLParser, and my usual way of invoking it was: 1. XMLHTMLParser parseURL: <urlstring>. This works in most cases, but with one particular site - http://www.corriere.it/....., which is an Italian newspaper - I had frequent failures, with the error message 'Invalid UTF8 encoding'. The parser has the option of parsing a string, which is obtained by other means, so I tried reading it in with Zinc: 2. XMLHTMLParser parse: <urlstring> asZnUrl retrieveContents. And this worked, so clearly the encoding on the site is OK. I realised that the XML-Parser package has its own methods, which reproduce a lot of the functionality of Zinc, so I tried the equivalent: 3. XMLHTMLParser parse: <urlstring> asXMLURI get. To my surprise, this worked equally well. I had expected problems, because presumably forms (1) and (3) use the same UTF8 decoding. For now, I am using the form (3) for all my work, and have not had any problems since. So the message to anyone who is using the form (1) and getting problems is to try (2) or (3) instead. I am using Moose 6.1 (Pharo 6.0 Latest update: #60486) on Windows 10. I think most articles on the Corriere web site will generate the error, but one which has always failed for me is: http://www.corriere.it/esteri/17_ottobre_03/felipe-spagna-catalogna-discorso -8f7ac0d6-a86d-11e7-a090-96160224e787.shtml I tried to trace through the error using the debugger, but it got too confusing. However, I did establish that the failure occurred early in decoding the HTML <head>, in the line beginning <meta name="description".. The only unusual thing at this point is the French-style open-quote: '<'. Whether this could explain the problem I don't know. Any suggestions gratefully received. Peter Kenny </quote> -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 8, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem with input to XML Parser - 'Invalid UTF8 encoding'

by Paul DeBruicker

in the HEAD tag of that page with the article they declare it is ISO-8859-1 and not UTF-8. In the page they have a CâÃ¨ The little back-tick next to the C is UTF8 8217 (http://www.codetable.net/decimal/8217) So their encoding is messed up, and maybe the XMLHTMLParser should throw a warning or something if there is a mismatch. Glad you found a work around. In another thread (on SVG Icons) Sven referred to ways of getting input from a URL for XMLDOMParser. I have recently had some problems doing this. I have found a workaround, so it is not urgent, but I thought I should put it on record in case anyone else is bitten by it, and so maybe Monty can look at it. I am using the subclass XMLHTMLParser, and my usual way of invoking it was: 1. XMLHTMLParser parseURL: <urlstring>. This works in most cases, but with one particular site - http://www.corriere.it/....., which is an Italian newspaper - I had frequent failures, with the error message 'Invalid UTF8 encoding'. The parser has the option of parsing a string, which is obtained by other means, so I tried reading it in with Zinc: 2. XMLHTMLParser parse: <urlstring> asZnUrl retrieveContents. And this worked, so clearly the encoding on the site is OK. I realised that the XML-Parser package has its own methods, which reproduce a lot of the functionality of Zinc, so I tried the equivalent: 3. XMLHTMLParser parse: <urlstring> asXMLURI get. To my surprise, this worked equally well. I had expected problems, because presumably forms (1) and (3) use the same UTF8 decoding. For now, I am using the form (3) for all my work, and have not had any problems since. So the message to anyone who is using the form (1) and getting problems is to try (2) or (3) instead. I am using Moose 6.1 (Pharo 6.0 Latest update: #60486) on Windows 10. I think most articles on the Corriere web site will generate the error, but one which has always failed for me is: http://www.corriere.it/esteri/17_ottobre_03/felipe-spagna-catalogna-discorso -8f7ac0d6-a86d-11e7-a090-96160224e787.shtml I tried to trace through the error using the debugger, but it got too confusing. However, I did establish that the failure occurred early in decoding the HTML <head>, in the line beginning <meta name="description".. The only unusual thing at this point is the French-style open-quote: '<'. Whether this could explain the problem I don't know. Any suggestions gratefully received. Peter Kenny </quote> -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 8, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FileReference#entries caching?

by Alistair Grant

On Sun, Oct 08, 2017 at 07:08:41PM +0200, Guillermo Polito wrote: > > > On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Alistair Grant <akgrant0710(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 08, 2017 at 06:33:08PM +0200, Guillermo Polito wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I don't think that FileSystem is caching entries... > > I haven't seen any code in the Pharo image or FilePlugin that caches > data. > > > > However, we found somehow > > related bug the other day with Mariano and Pablo while running > OSSupprocess > > tests on travis/linux. The bug is as follows. The test was doing: > > > > '/tmp' asFileReference entries do: [...] > > > > And then it was calling 'lsof' over pharo's pid to know files that pharo > has > > open. > > > > funny thing is that lsof was telling us that '/tmp' was open! When we > already > > retrieved the entries and the file reference was collected... > > > > The same in osx or local linux mate running in a virtual box did not > happen :/. > > I was able to reproduce the issue on Ubuntu 16.04 using > Pharo7.0-32bit-d13eed2.image. > > I haven't tracked the cause down, but the problem doesn't exist with the > proposed fix I have for symbolic links (fogbugz 18279 > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18279/isSymlink-seems- > to-be-broken-on-Linux). > This patch also updates the code responsible for iterating over > directories, which is why it can resolve this issue as well. > > > > Nice! How much time until we can integrate such thing ? :D I submitted the code in August. Eliot kindly provided some great feedback with lots of details. I submitted updated code on 6 September. Since then I haven't seen anything from Eliot, so I hope everything is OK. Cheers, Alistair > Cheers, > Alistair > > > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 5:44 PM, Steven R. Baker <steven(a)stevenrbaker.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On 07/10/17 14:22, Peter Uhn?k wrote: > > > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Steven R. Baker < > > steven(a)stevenrbaker.com> wrote: > > > > Is it cached or something? How do I guarantee that I'm > *definitely* > > getting the current state of the directory on disk? > > > > > > This looks extremely strange, I've never seen that inspecting > files/ > > directories would be somehow "out of sync" with the disk, because > it is > > always asking the disk. > > > > > > > > > > Should I not even be using FileReference for this? > > > > > > If you are loading png icons into Pharo, you can consider using > https:/ > > /github.com/peteruhnak/IconFactory/ instead (shameless self > promotion > > :) ) > > > > > > Will definitely switch to this; I wasn't aware of the pattern, but > > obviously I want to follow them where possible. :) > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > [presentation] Guille Polito > > [CNRS-filaire] > > Research Engineer > > > > Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et > > Automatique de Lille > > > > CRIStAL - UMR 9189 > > > > French National Center for Scientific Research > - > > http://www.cnrs.fr > > > > > > Web: http://guillep.github.io > > > > Phone: +33 06 52 70 66 13 > > > > > > > > -- > [presentation] Guille Polito > [CNRS-filaire] > Research Engineer > > Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et > Automatique de Lille > > CRIStAL - UMR 9189 > > French National Center for Scientific Research - > http://www.cnrs.fr > > > Web: http://guillep.github.io > > Phone: +33 06 52 70 66 13 >

Oct. 8, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FileReference#entries caching?

by Guillermo Polito

On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Alistair Grant <akgrant0710(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Sun, Oct 08, 2017 at 06:33:08PM +0200, Guillermo Polito wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I don't think that FileSystem is caching entries... > > I haven't seen any code in the Pharo image or FilePlugin that caches > data. > > > > However, we found somehow > > related bug the other day with Mariano and Pablo while running > OSSupprocess > > tests on travis/linux. The bug is as follows. The test was doing: > > > > '/tmp' asFileReference entries do: [...] > > > > And then it was calling 'lsof' over pharo's pid to know files that pharo > has > > open. > > > > funny thing is that lsof was telling us that '/tmp' was open! When we > already > > retrieved the entries and the file reference was collected... > > > > The same in osx or local linux mate running in a virtual box did not > happen :/. > > I was able to reproduce the issue on Ubuntu 16.04 using > Pharo7.0-32bit-d13eed2.image. > > I haven't tracked the cause down, but the problem doesn't exist with the > proposed fix I have for symbolic links (fogbugz 18279 > https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18279/isSymlink-seems- > to-be-broken-on-Linux). > This patch also updates the code responsible for iterating over > directories, which is why it can resolve this issue as well. > > Nice! How much time until we can integrate such thing ? :D > > Cheers, > Alistair > > > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 5:44 PM, Steven R. Baker <steven(a)stevenrbaker.com > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On 07/10/17 14:22, Peter Uhn?k wrote: > > > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Steven R. Baker < > > steven(a)stevenrbaker.com> wrote: > > > > Is it cached or something? How do I guarantee that I'm > *definitely* > > getting the current state of the directory on disk? > > > > > > This looks extremely strange, I've never seen that inspecting > files/ > > directories would be somehow "out of sync" with the disk, > because it is > > always asking the disk. > > > > > > > > > > Should I not even be using FileReference for this? > > > > > > If you are loading png icons into Pharo, you can consider using > https:/ > > /github.com/peteruhnak/IconFactory/ instead (shameless self > promotion > > :) ) > > > > > > Will definitely switch to this; I wasn't aware of the pattern, but > > obviously I want to follow them where possible. :) > > > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > [presentation] Guille Polito > > [CNRS-filaire] > > Research Engineer > > > > Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et > > Automatique de Lille > > > > CRIStAL - UMR 9189 > > > > French National Center for Scientific Research > - > > http://www.cnrs.fr > > > > > > Web: http://guillep.github.io > > > > Phone: +33 06 52 70 66 13 > > > > -- Guille Polito Research Engineer Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et Automatique de Lille CRIStAL - UMR 9189 French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr <http://www.cnrs.fr>* *Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* <http://guillep.github.io> *Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13

Oct. 8, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Can't find Cairo

by Peter UhnÃ¡k

Make sure you have the same image and lib version (64bit vs 32bit). The paths where Pharo looks are described in CairoLibrary class. CairoLibrary>>unix32ModuleName "On different flavors of linux the path to library may differ depending on OS distro or whether system is 32 or 64 bit. Packages such as snapcraft can also change the path. Look in a number of known locations, or LD_LIBRARY_PATH." (#('/usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu' '/usr/lib32' '/usr/lib'), (((OSEnvironment current getEnv: 'LD_LIBRARY_PATH') ifNil: [ '' ]) substrings: ':')) do: [ :path | | libraryPath | libraryPath := path asFileReference / 'libcairo.so.2'. libraryPath exists ifTrue: [ ^ libraryPath fullName ] ]. self error: 'Cannot locate cairo library. Please check if it installed on your system' CairoLibrary>>unix64ModuleName "On different flavors of linux the path to library may differ depending on OS distro or whether system is 32 or 64 bit. Packages such as snapcraft can also change the path. Look in a number of known locations, or LD_LIBRARY_PATH." (#('/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu' '/usr/lib'), (((OSEnvironment current getEnv: 'LD_LIBRARY_PATH') ifNil: [ '' ]) substrings: ':')) do: [ :path | | libraryPath | libraryPath := path asFileReference / 'libcairo.so.2'. libraryPath exists ifTrue: [ ^ libraryPath fullName ] ]. self error: 'Cannot locate cairo library. Please check if it installed on your system' Cheers, Peter On Sun, Oct 8, 2017 at 6:34 PM, Steven R. Baker <steven(a)stevenrbaker.com> wrote: > Heya, > > I need some help telling Pharo where to find things. I've installed Bloc > into my image, and it can't find cairo. Cairo is installed, but as far > as I can tell Bloc is not looking for it in /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/ > which is where it can be found. > > I don't care to go making symlinks around my system: is there a sensible > way to tell Pharo where to find libcairo? > > Thanks! > > -Steven > > > >

Oct. 8, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] How to make pharo find sqlite?

by phil＠highoctane.be

Oh my, am doing too much Windows at the moment. Phil On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Alistair Grant <akgrant0710(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 01:28:06PM +0200, Herby Voj????k wrote: > > phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > > >What about > > > > > >LD_LIBRARY_PATH=<sqlite3place>;$LD_LIBRARYPATH ./pharo-ui some.image > > > > > >Phil > > > > Thanks for answer, did not help. > > > > In fact it must be something different. As can be seen in the stack, it > > fails during finalizers, and as can be seen by looking at > > UDBCSQLite3DatabaseExternalObject class>>finalizeResourceData: code, the > > method it calls is sqlite close. It is hardly the first method that is > > should call... > > > > I suspect something around image save / load. Again. Lots of errors in > those > > parts. But may be something else, as it kicks in only when SQLite-using > > tests starts to run. :-( > > > > Herby > > > > P.S.: I saw there is a similar thread out there, but it has problems with > > 32bit loaded by 64bit vm; but here, I have 32bit linux, so the vm > installed > > should be 32bit. > > > Sorry I'm a bit late to the party... > > I'm using Glorp / UDBCSQLite3 on Ubuntu 16.04 without any problems > (admittedly 64 bit Ubuntu, but as you say, that shouldn't matter). > > Just in case you copy-and-pasted the code, Phil's example has a typo: > the path separator is a colon (:), not semicolon (;). > > Install libsqlite3-dev and adding /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu to > LD_LIBRARY_PATH is all I had to do to get it to work (no changes to > UDBCSQLite3Library>>library). Actually LD_LIBRARY_PATH normally > shouldn't be required, but I'm running inside a snap container, which is > an unusual environment. > > > > > root@32bit-agent:~# find / -name '*libsqlite*' -type f > 2>>/dev/null > > /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libsqlite3.so.0.8.6 > > It seems strange that there isn't libsqlite3.so. I think the real > solution would be to find out why libsqlite3.so doesn't exist, but after > installing libsqlite3-dev, a workaround would be to try creating a > symbolic link from libsqlite3.so.0.8.6 to libsqlite3.so. > > > > Cheers, > Alistair > > >

Oct. 8, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FileReference#entries caching?

by Alistair Grant

On Sun, Oct 08, 2017 at 06:33:08PM +0200, Guillermo Polito wrote: > Hi, > > I don't think that FileSystem is caching entries... I haven't seen any code in the Pharo image or FilePlugin that caches data. > However, we found somehow > related bug the other day with Mariano and Pablo while running OSSupprocess > tests on travis/linux. The bug is as follows. The test was doing: > > '/tmp' asFileReference entries do: [...] > > And then it was calling 'lsof' over pharo's pid to know files that pharo has > open. > > funny thing is that lsof was telling us that '/tmp' was open! When we already > retrieved the entries and the file reference was collected... > > The same in osx or local linux mate running in a virtual box did not happen :/. I was able to reproduce the issue on Ubuntu 16.04 using Pharo7.0-32bit-d13eed2.image. I haven't tracked the cause down, but the problem doesn't exist with the proposed fix I have for symbolic links (fogbugz 18279 https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18279/isSymlink-seems-to-be-broken-on-Lin…) This patch also updates the code responsible for iterating over directories, which is why it can resolve this issue as well. Cheers, Alistair > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 5:44 PM, Steven R. Baker <steven(a)stevenrbaker.com> > wrote: > > > > > On 07/10/17 14:22, Peter Uhn?k wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Steven R. Baker < > steven(a)stevenrbaker.com> wrote: > > Is it cached or something? How do I guarantee that I'm *definitely* > getting the current state of the directory on disk? > > > This looks extremely strange, I've never seen that inspecting files/ > directories would be somehow "out of sync" with the disk, because it is > always asking the disk. > > > > > Should I not even be using FileReference for this? > > > If you are loading png icons into Pharo, you can consider using https:/ > /github.com/peteruhnak/IconFactory/ instead (shameless self promotion > :) ) > > > Will definitely switch to this; I wasn't aware of the pattern, but > obviously I want to follow them where possible. :) > > > Peter > > > > > > > -- > [presentation] Guille Polito > [CNRS-filaire] > Research Engineer > > Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et > Automatique de Lille > > CRIStAL - UMR 9189 > > French National Center for Scientific Research - > http://www.cnrs.fr > > > Web: http://guillep.github.io > > Phone: +33 06 52 70 66 13 >

Oct. 8, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Futures, in Scale (was: Re: Embeddable Smalltalk (was: Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk))

by Guillermo Polito

Hi Herby, Scale does not implement futures by itself. It uses the ones implemented in taskit: https://github.com/sbragagnolo/taskit On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Herby VojÄÃk <herby(a)mailbox.sk> wrote: > Hi, > > I have looked at Scale b/c of different question, and I see it uses > futures. > > I'd like to ask if those futures are one-off, or is there any consensus on > how futures should look like in Pharo. The reason I ask is b/c Amber > already has something like that - Promises, which do not use the native JS > API directly (though it is inspired), but do have an API of their own; and > since those concepts seems to be similar (or maybe are the same, just > called differently), if the API used shouldn't be sort-of standardized / > used the same way in all occasions. > > Herby > > P.S.: Including state-of-the-art Promises.st from Amber master branch to > get a picture: > > Smalltalk createPackage: 'Kernel-Promises'! > Object subclass: #Promise > instanceVariableNames: '' > package: 'Kernel-Promises'! > > !Promise class methodsFor: 'composites'! > > all: aCollection > "Returns a Promise resolved with results of sub-promises." > <inlineJS: 'return Promise.all($recv(aCollection)._asArray())'> > ! > > any: aCollection > "Returns a Promise resolved with first result of sub-promises." > <inlineJS: 'return Promise.race($recv(aCollection)._asArray())'> > ! ! > > !Promise class methodsFor: 'instance creation'! > > forBlock: aBlock > "Returns a Promise that is resolved with the value of aBlock, > and rejected if error happens while evaluating aBlock." > ^ self new then: aBlock > ! > > new > "Returns a dumb Promise resolved with nil." > <inlineJS: 'return Promise.resolve()'> > ! > > new: aBlock > "Returns a Promise that is eventually resolved or rejected. > Pass a block that is called with one argument, model. > You should call model value: ... to resolve the promise > and model signal: ... to reject the promise. > If error happens during run of the block, > promise is rejected with that error as well." > <inlineJS: 'return new Promise(function (resolve, reject) { > var model = {value: resolve, signal: reject}; > aBlock._value_(model); > })'> > ! > > signal: anObject > "Returns a Promise rejected with anObject." > <inlineJS: 'return $recv(anObject)._in_(function (x) {return > Promise.reject(x)})'> > ! > > value: anObject > "Returns a Promise resolved with anObject." > <inlineJS: 'return $recv(anObject)._in_(function (x) {return > Promise.resolve(x)})'> > ! ! > > Trait named: #TThenable > package: 'Kernel-Promises'! > > !TThenable methodsFor: 'promises'! > > catch: aBlock > <inlineJS: 'return self.then(null, function (err) {return > $core.seamless(function () { > return aBlock._value_(err); > })})'> > ! > > on: aClass do: aBlock > <inlineJS: 'return self.then(null, function (err) {return > $core.seamless(function () { > if (err._isKindOf_(aClass)) return aBlock._value_(err); > else throw err; > })})'> > ! > > on: aClass do: aBlock catch: anotherBlock > ^ (self on: aClass do: aBlock) catch: anotherBlock > ! > > then: aBlockOrArray > "Accepts a block or array of blocks. > Each of blocks in the array or the singleton one is > used in .then call to a promise, to accept a result > and transform it to the result for the next one. > In case a block has more than one argument > and result is an array, first n-1 elements of the array > are put into additional arguments beyond the first. > The first argument always contains the result as-is." > <inlineJS: ' > var array = Array.isArray(aBlockOrArray) ? aBlockOrArray : [aBlockOrArray]; > return array.reduce(function (soFar, aBlock) { > return soFar.then(typeof aBlock === "function" && aBlock.length > 1 ? > function (result) {return $core.seamless(function () { > if (Array.isArray(result)) { > return aBlock._valueWithPossibleArgum > ents_([result].concat(result.slice(0, aBlock.length-1))); > } else { > return aBlock._value_(result); > } > })} : > function (result) {return $core.seamless(function () { > return aBlock._value_(result); > })} > ); > }, self)'> > ! > > then: aBlockOrArray catch: anotherBlock > ^ (self then: aBlockOrArray) catch: anotherBlock > ! > > then: aBlockOrArray on: aClass do: aBlock > ^ (self then: aBlockOrArray) on: aClass do: aBlock > ! > > then: aBlockOrArray on: aClass do: aBlock catch: anotherBlock > ^ ((self then: aBlockOrArray) on: aClass do: aBlock) catch: > anotherBlock > ! ! > > Promise setTraitComposition: {TThenable} asTraitComposition! > ! ! > > > > phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > >> https://github.com/guillep/Scale <https://github.com/guillep/Scale> is >> quite cool for quick scripts on *nix. >> >> Now for embeddable, yes it would help. Bootstrapping will be helpful but >> the current main issue is the VM interpret loop that is in the current >> VMs. >> >> It is not an intrinsic problem. Telepharo is also a great step to enable >> that to exist. >> >> Phil >> >> On Oct 7, 2017 13:05, "Herby VojÄÃk" <herby(a)mailbox.sk >> <mailto:herby@mailbox.sk>> wrote: >> >> Ben Coman wrote: >> >> Nice article. I like the way you've structured it and pushed the >> "updated" angle. >> >> I feel a bit too strong a claim is laid on Pharo producing the >> CogVM. >> Much of the Cog + Spur + 64bit VM work was originally done for >> Squeak >> with Pharo riding the coat-tails of that work. Lately Pharo >> community >> has been involved in improving VM with hotspot optimisation with >> Sista >> and moving towards making Pharo embeddable.. (@Clement, is >> "hotspot >> >> >> Hi, this made me curious. I always had the problem with Amber (and, >> all the rest of Smalltalks in similar vein) that it is hard to use >> to one-off scripting, as it presumes existence of the not really >> small class library (objects, classes, collections, etc.). This >> disadvantaged it IMO in the field of "can I just embed it here and >> script it with a few lines?" scenarios. >> >> Did you (the Pharo community that is "moving towards making Pharo >> embeddable") find some way to work this around? >> >> cheers -ben >> >> >> Herby >> >> >> >> > -- Guille Polito Research Engineer Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et Automatique de Lille CRIStAL - UMR 9189 French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr <http://www.cnrs.fr>* *Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* <http://guillep.github.io> *Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13

Oct. 8, 2017

Can't find Cairo

by Steven R. Baker

Heya, I need some help telling Pharo where to find things. I've installed Bloc into my image, and it can't find cairo. Cairo is installed, but as far as I can tell Bloc is not looking for it in /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/ which is where it can be found. I don't care to go making symlinks around my system: is there a sensible way to tell Pharo where to find libcairo? Thanks! -Steven

Oct. 8, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FileReference#entries caching?

by Guillermo Polito

Hi, I don't think that FileSystem is caching entries... However, we found somehow related bug the other day with Mariano and Pablo while running OSSupprocess tests on travis/linux. The bug is as follows. The test was doing: '/tmp' asFileReference entries do: [...] And then it was calling 'lsof' over pharo's pid to know files that pharo has open. funny thing is that lsof was telling us that '/tmp' was open! When we already retrieved the entries and the file reference was collected... The same in osx or local linux mate running in a virtual box did not happen :/. On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 5:44 PM, Steven R. Baker <steven(a)stevenrbaker.com> wrote: > > > On 07/10/17 14:22, Peter UhnÃ¡k wrote: > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Steven R. Baker <steven(a)stevenrbaker.com> > wrote: > >> Is it cached or something? How do I guarantee that I'm *definitely* >> getting the current state of the directory on disk? > > > This looks extremely strange, I've never seen that inspecting > files/directories would be somehow "out of sync" with the disk, because it > is always asking the disk. > > > > Should I not even be using FileReference for this? >> > > If you are loading png icons into Pharo, you can consider using > https://github.com/peteruhnak/IconFactory/ instead (shameless self > promotion :) ) > > > Will definitely switch to this; I wasn't aware of the pattern, but > obviously I want to follow them where possible. :) > > Peter > > > -- Guille Polito Research Engineer Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et Automatique de Lille CRIStAL - UMR 9189 French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr <http://www.cnrs.fr>* *Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* <http://guillep.github.io> *Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13

Oct. 8, 2017

Problem with input to XML Parser - 'Invalid UTF8 encoding'

by PBKResearch

In another thread (on SVG Icons) Sven referred to ways of getting input from a URL for XMLDOMParser. I have recently had some problems doing this. I have found a workaround, so it is not urgent, but I thought I should put it on record in case anyone else is bitten by it, and so maybe Monty can look at it. I am using the subclass XMLHTMLParser, and my usual way of invoking it was: 1. XMLHTMLParser parseURL: <urlstring>. This works in most cases, but with one particular site - http://www.corriere.it/....., which is an Italian newspaper - I had frequent failures, with the error message 'Invalid UTF8 encoding'. The parser has the option of parsing a string, which is obtained by other means, so I tried reading it in with Zinc: 2. XMLHTMLParser parse: <urlstring> asZnUrl retrieveContents. And this worked, so clearly the encoding on the site is OK. I realised that the XML-Parser package has its own methods, which reproduce a lot of the functionality of Zinc, so I tried the equivalent: 3. XMLHTMLParser parse: <urlstring> asXMLURI get. To my surprise, this worked equally well. I had expected problems, because presumably forms (1) and (3) use the same UTF8 decoding. For now, I am using the form (3) for all my work, and have not had any problems since. So the message to anyone who is using the form (1) and getting problems is to try (2) or (3) instead. I am using Moose 6.1 (Pharo 6.0 Latest update: #60486) on Windows 10. I think most articles on the Corriere web site will generate the error, but one which has always failed for me is: http://www.corriere.it/esteri/17_ottobre_03/felipe-spagna-catalogna-discorso -8f7ac0d6-a86d-11e7-a090-96160224e787.shtml I tried to trace through the error using the debugger, but it got too confusing. However, I did establish that the failure occurred early in decoding the HTML <head>, in the line beginning <meta name="description".. The only unusual thing at this point is the French-style open-quote: '<'. Whether this could explain the problem I don't know. Any suggestions gratefully received. Peter Kenny

Oct. 8, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] How to make pharo find sqlite?

by Alistair Grant

On Sat, Sep 30, 2017 at 01:28:06PM +0200, Herby Voj????k wrote: > phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: > >What about > > > >LD_LIBRARY_PATH=<sqlite3place>;$LD_LIBRARYPATH ./pharo-ui some.image > > > >Phil > > Thanks for answer, did not help. > > In fact it must be something different. As can be seen in the stack, it > fails during finalizers, and as can be seen by looking at > UDBCSQLite3DatabaseExternalObject class>>finalizeResourceData: code, the > method it calls is sqlite close. It is hardly the first method that is > should call... > > I suspect something around image save / load. Again. Lots of errors in those > parts. But may be something else, as it kicks in only when SQLite-using > tests starts to run. :-( > > Herby > > P.S.: I saw there is a similar thread out there, but it has problems with > 32bit loaded by 64bit vm; but here, I have 32bit linux, so the vm installed > should be 32bit. Sorry I'm a bit late to the party... I'm using Glorp / UDBCSQLite3 on Ubuntu 16.04 without any problems (admittedly 64 bit Ubuntu, but as you say, that shouldn't matter). Just in case you copy-and-pasted the code, Phil's example has a typo: the path separator is a colon (:), not semicolon (;). Install libsqlite3-dev and adding /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu to LD_LIBRARY_PATH is all I had to do to get it to work (no changes to UDBCSQLite3Library>>library). Actually LD_LIBRARY_PATH normally shouldn't be required, but I'm running inside a snap container, which is an unusual environment. > root@32bit-agent:~# find / -name '*libsqlite*' -type f 2>>/dev/null > /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libsqlite3.so.0.8.6 It seems strange that there isn't libsqlite3.so. I think the real solution would be to find out why libsqlite3.so doesn't exist, but after installing libsqlite3-dev, a workaround would be to try creating a symbolic link from libsqlite3.so.0.8.6 to libsqlite3.so. Cheers, Alistair

Oct. 8, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] What does RMoD stand for?

by Stephane Ducasse

It stands for nothing :) just Remodularisation dropping letters and making sure that they are not thousands of other people in the web having the same name :). On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > >> On 7 Oct 2017, at 13:06, Rene Paul Mages (ramix) <pharo(a)rmages.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> Le 07/10/2017 Ã 12:59, horrido a Ã©crit : >>> It is bizarre. Nowhere on the web can I find any reference to what INRIA's >>> *RMoD* acronym stands for. >> >> Please try this request : >> >> https://tinyurl.com/INRIA-Rmod > > But it is strange that their main page does not say (AFAICS). > > It is something like Research into Modular Systems, but I am just guessing ;-) > >> -- >> Amicalement. >> Rene Paul Mages ( GnuPG_key 1024D/2CC455D9 ) >> http://www.linux-azur.org/ramix >> http://blog.pharo.fr >> http://nosoftwarepatents.wikidot.com >> >> >> > >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Embeddable Smalltalk (was: Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Stephane Ducasse

I would love to have pharo embeddable from C. But we are not yet there. Now we worked and will continue to make sure that Pharo can work in readonly mode and we will have a tiny core. Stef On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 2:43 PM, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 7:05 PM, Herby VojÄÃk <herby(a)mailbox.sk> wrote: >> >> Ben Coman wrote: >>> >>> Nice article. I like the way you've structured it and pushed the >>> "updated" angle. >>> >>> I feel a bit too strong a claim is laid on Pharo producing the CogVM. >>> Much of the Cog + Spur + 64bit VM work was originally done for Squeak >>> with Pharo riding the coat-tails of that work. Lately Pharo community >>> has been involved in improving VM with hotspot optimisation with Sista >>> and moving towards making Pharo embeddable.. (@Clement, is "hotspot >> >> >> Hi, this made me curious. I always had the problem with Amber (and, all >> the rest of Smalltalks in similar vein) that it is hard to use to one-off >> scripting, as it presumes existence of the not really small class library >> (objects, classes, collections, etc.). This disadvantaged it IMO in the >> field of "can I just embed it here and script it with a few lines?" >> scenarios. >> >> Did you (the Pharo community that is "moving towards making Pharo >> embeddable") find some way to work this around? > > > Embeddable here is no so much for one-off scripting, but more becoming an > integrated part of an application driven by an event loop of a game engine > rather than the existing VM event loop. I'd expect much of the class > library to be available here, so your question is orthogonal. > > I've seen discussion of projects for Pharo work from the command line, but I > don't know their status. > > cheers -ben

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FocusFrog

by Sean P. DeNigris

Steven R. Baker wrote > I am not sure how to manage projects, or even how someone goes about > importing this stuff. It looks like you've already grasped package management. The next level up in project management is Metacello, which let's you declare the dependency relationships between packages and outside projects. For git repos, one creates a BaselineOf instead of the old ConfigurationOf. The difference between a baseline and a config is that the latter needs to have additional metadata because for example, the config itself could be hosted anywhere (e.g. in a different repo than the project), and it also needs to specify which package/dependency versions make up a particular version of your project. For git, the baseline relies on some assumptions to eliminate some declarations. For example, the baseline gets committed right with the rest of the project. Thus, if you have the baseline, you already know the repo, so that is omitted. Also, since git defines a snapshot of package versions via a particular commit, so you don't need that additional version info. ATM, you might still create a ConfigurationOf for integration with some tools, so for example, your project could appear and be loadable via the Project Catalog tool. But the configuration would be a thin wrapper which probably just delegates by declaring a baseline from a particular commit. Also, it would be good to provide an obvious access point to open the tool. `FocusFrogMainModel new openWithSpec` is a basic snippet that does the trick. You might want to document that with a class-side method (if you tag it with <script> it will be run-able from the code browser UI) and/or make it available from the World Menu. Lastly, when I tried to open the tool, I got errors because the icons were not initialized properly. HTH! ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 7, 2017

So how do you use Live Coding ?

by Dimitris Chloupis

I think this deserves a seperate thread by itself, I was wondering what tricks , ideas and workflows you guys have come up with using live coding in Pharo ? What you like ? what you dont like ? What kinda of libraries you have made to enhance your live coding workflow ? What ideas you have that could enhance live coding workflow , inside and outside Pharo ? Any opinion is welcomed whether you just started coding in Pharo or coding in it for many years , I welcome any kind of brainstorming as long as it is relevant to live coding itself. Offray already was kind enough to share his workflow but I am sure other have something to add as well Its important to share because I am thinking of making a special mention in the Pharo wiki about live coding workflows so anything you share will be copy pasted there to help other people to get deeper into live coding If you can please offer practical examples , will make it easier for me and others to understand. So dont be shy, sharing is caring ;)

Oct. 7, 2017

FocusFrog

by Steven R. Baker

Hey all! Thanks for the help on all of my little issues. I've been plugging away at FocusFrog, my application for Getting Things Done.Â I have pushed the current code (mostly UI stuff in there just now) to GitLab: https://gitlab.com/srbaker/FocusFrog I am not sure how to manage projects, or even how someone goes about importing this stuff. If anyone of you cares to pull that down and provide suggestions, I will be more than happy to take them! Currently, I'm fixing up the view switching when you click the sidebar buttons, and improving the task item views. Is there a document somewhere about how you're supposed to publish things for Pharo? I'd like to make sure this follows the "established best practices." Cheers! -Steven

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FileReference#entries caching?

by Steven R. Baker

On 07/10/17 14:22, Peter UhnÃ¡k wrote: > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 1:02 PM, Steven R. Baker > <steven(a)stevenrbaker.com <mailto:steven@stevenrbaker.com>> wrote: > > Is it cached or something? How do I guarantee that I'm *definitely* > getting the current state of the directory on disk? > > > This looks extremely strange, I've never seen that inspecting > files/directories would be somehow "out of sync" with the disk, > because it is always asking the disk. > > > > Should I not even be using FileReference for this? > > > If you are loading png icons into Pharo, you can consider > usingÂ https://github.com/peteruhnak/IconFactory/ instead (shameless > self promotion :) ) Will definitely switch to this; I wasn't aware of the pattern, but obviously I want to follow them where possible. :) > Peter

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Equals and HashCode Builder

by Sean P. DeNigris

Noury Bouraqadi-2 wrote > The code + tests are here > http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~CAR/ReusableBricks/packages/Equals I forked to https://github.com/seandenigris/Pharo-Equals with a baseline to make it easier to try out/possibly-integrate. ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Indeed if you google "live coding" you get a lot of audio visual related tools. I have to confess because I am working with graphics, live coding is pretty much bread and butter of my workflow , cannot imagine myself working without it. When you step out of audio visual and other live performance arts you barely see "live coding" mentioned if not at all. The only exception I know is RunRev's LiveCode , similar to Pharo in the general idea, used to be closed source but now there is an open source version and Apple's Swift's Playgrounds which were inspired by a Smalltalk like demo. Fragmantation is indeed an issue with all programming languages including Pharo but on the other hand is a necessarily evil for innovation because my experience is that where there is unity there is also stagnation of progress but this enters philosophical ground I rather not venture into. On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 6:18 PM Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > I think that there are some communities that are more receptive of live > coding, beyond programmers. Scientist, journalists, hacktivists, data > visualizers, musicians, come to mind and I have a better experience and > more openness to live coding with them that with the "classical > programmer/coder". With our recent Data Journalism Handbook, adaptation in > Grafoscopio [1] and our recurrent Data Week hackathon+workshops[2], we're > trying to reach new audiences and communities. > [1] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/ > [2] http://mutabit.com/dataweek/ > > Cheers, > > Offray > > > On 07/10/17 07:40, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > Yes I agree with this > > Pharo is a live coding BASED enviroment. For Pharo live coding is not just > an easy to use feature it based its entire mentality around the idea of > live coding. > > Even though Smalltalk borrowed live coding and image format from Lisp we > are more "pure" in that regard even compared to Lisp. > > But one thing to note here is that live coding is not really that useful > when used always. At least for me I rely a lot on it for debugging and > experimenting. But when I work based on a plan , or code just works I do > not care so much about it. > > So my workflow in the end is semi-live coding because I dont feel I need > live coding 24/7 to be super productive. > > Of course that creates some barriers in the end when tools are not made to > work 24/7 on a live coding context. To that extend Pharo is definetly > superior and a true live coding enviroment. > > You are suprised that you can do live coding in C++ but I was trully > shocked. > > My saga to do live coding in C++ started as a joke, something to use to > mock C++ ugliness and weakness. But oh boy it did slap it back to my face. > > The process is again simple, you wrap eveything inside a main loop,and > call in this loop functions (C has no objects obvious) or methods if you > use C++ from DLLs. Those DLLs obviously contain 99.9% of your code. Because > a DLL can be reloaded it allows you not to stop executing and replace code > on the fly. The main loop is wrapped inside an exception to make sure the > an error will never crash your application, C/C++ exceptions are more > powerful than Pharo live coding in that regard because in Pharo if you do > anything bad with UFFI and crash it , it will crash for sure. > > If you keep the DLL small and you use tons of small dlls your compile > times will be almost instantenous. You can also with very view lines detect > date signature change in source file and trigger background compilation. > Again few lines of code. The last mountain is live state, in this case the > executable pass a single pointer and instead of the executable handling the > memory its actually the dlls that handle it but the executable because it > cannot crash or exit will keep the live state running. You can also use > memory mapped file to store live state as they perform pure memory dumps. > > All in all you will end up with 100 lines of code that can be wrapped into > a library and reused in the next project with zero setup. Its an one time > pain. > > Will I would recommend C++ over Pharo for live coding .... helll no.... > C++ obviously misses a hugely important live coding ingredient which is > reflection. We do live coding because we want to interact with those > objects ask questions about what is going on and why our code does not work > as intended > > However Python has no such limitation following a very similar design to > Smalltalk and being much more powerful language than C++. Python follow > very closely the Smalltalk paradigm even though there is not a single > mention of Smalltalk , anywhere in the Python community or of live coding. > > Live coding in C++ has become a huge deal in game development mainly > because game development tend to want to change things on the fly and games > are so big with extremely long compile times. Unreal has made a huge deal > over its ability to hot reload C++ code in its editor , though I do not > like its approach so much. > > Bottom line is yes its easy and simple to do live coding in other > languages, not recommended so much in C++ because of its static compiled > nature and lack of reflection but for dynamic language like Python it can > come pretty close and I speak from experience. > > At least I have not found something in Python that made me wish I was > live coding in Pharo so far, but then yes I still think its better to have > a full blown live coding. Also from my limited understanding I have figured > out that pretty much every language out there allows for reloading code > which is pretty much a very large requirement for live coding. > > So yes you can live code to an extend, lesser in languages like C++ , more > so in language like Python, Ruby etc. Can you get the Pharo experience ? In > a dynamic language with the creation of a live coding library you could get > pretty close but never exactly the same. > > Pharo still is the undisputed king of live coding. > > Why live coding is not a huge thing in coding in general, I am willing to > bet it has more to do with coder mentality than language limitation. When > you are used to "dead code" workflow it difficult to switch. I struggle a > lot to get use to the live coding workflow of Pharo because I had to rewire > my brain. But in the end you cannot avoid live coding, there will be always > scenarios you would want to change things on the fly, reload code, store > live state etc. > > In the end it more a coder flaw than it is a language flaw. I know we love > to blame languages for our mistakes. > > But in our back of our head we all know we debate over languages that we > barely use only 0.000001% of their true potential. We are too lazy and > sometimes we need someone to slam our face to the truth to actually see it. > And by we I dont mean the Pharo community but human nature by itself. > That's exactly what Pharo did for me that motivated me exploring live > coding in other languages. > > If it was not for Pharo I would still be doing the old slow method of > correct, compile, restart and repeat till you hate yourself. > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 1:57 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> > My point is that indeed you can do with EASE live coding in a numerous >> languages, at least to my experience. I have tried only Python and C/C++. >> >> Until I came upon this thread, I never knew you could do live coding in >> Python and C/C++. And I was a professional C/C++ programmer for over 15 >> years! >> >> It is certainly a well-kept secret. I have found very little information >> on >> the web about doing live coding in these languages (in fact, none). This >> leads me to believe that the vast majority of Python and C/C++ developers >> don't know about, or don't do, live coding. >> >> Whether it's "easy" is rather subjective. I suspect it's not as easy nor >> as >> convenient as in Pharo. If it were, then live coding ought to be much more >> prevalent in the Python and C/C++ communities. After all, what developer >> doesn't want to improve their productivity or increase their velocity of >> development? >> >> The key differentiator here, I think, is that live coding is baked into >> Pharo/Smalltalk, thus making it natural to use. It is not natural for >> Python >> and C/C++ programmers. It would be difficult to convince the IT industry >> to >> adopt live coding en masse. >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >> >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Ok. Glad to help. In the thread I mentioned some of the specific difficulties I had implementing Grafoscopio's idea in Python[1] (in one word: fragmentation, of technologies and computing paradigms) [1] http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/grafoscopio-idea-and-ini… Cheers, Offray On 07/10/17 10:17, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > Well I was refering to live coding itself, but you are correct, I have > not tried combining with literate coding hence why I was curious about > the difficulties you ecountered. I did not know that you focused so > much Grafoscopio on iterate coding. Thanks for enlighting me.Â > > I never implied that Python was easier in everything compared to > Pharo. Afterall kinda misses a huge chunk which is the IDE itself.Â > > There lies the challange of live coding as I initially said that we > each use it in a diffirent way. Thanks for the link also very > enlighting and it is what i wanted, an actual use case.Â > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 5:49 PM Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas > <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com <mailto:offray.luna@mutabit.com>> wrote: > > > > On 06/10/17 21:00, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > Again very generic statements , and I see you refer to tools and > > libraries instead of OOP. We talking here Pharo vs Python on the > > language level because Python obviously does not come with an > IDE. But > > then Pharo does not come with literate programming tools or > libraries > > as well. > > No. We were talking about things "that Pharo can do that Python > can't do > or is most difficult". And, for me that includes the (community & > computing) environment provided by Pharo that allow you to go from and > idea to its implementation. In my case the idea was to provide an > experience which mix outlining (a la Leo Editor) with literate > computing > (a la Jupyter, IPython) [1]. Even if the original pieces where already > there in Python, mixing them was a nighmare (at least 3 years ago) and > Pharo was more empowering for going from idea to prototype and now > Pharo > has literate *computing* (not literate programming [2]) tools. > Grafoscopio is one of them. GT Documenter, in alpha now, is promising. > You can not have a single document for complex books in Jupyter. You > need to split/storage a single work in a "pile of files" metaphor. You > can, today, with Grafoscopio put a 300 pages long PDF in a single > notebook. So yes, there are things that are more complex in one > technology that in other (of course all computer languages are the > same > at enough distance, because all them are Turing complete and all > that stuff) > > [1] > http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/on-deepness-and-complexi… > [2] > http://blog.fperez.org/2013/04/literate-computing-and-computational.html > > > > > I rather not go down the rabbit hole of third party libraries > because > > obviously I cannot participate in a discussion about libraries and > > areas of coding, I know nothing about. Plus Python has countless of > > libraries which makes a very longer discussion even if I was > familiar > > with them and Pharo has much less but still quite a lot of libraries > > as well. > > One of the advantages of being in a community is learning from others > experiences. You said that in your experience you have not found a > place > where Python were more difficult that in Pharo. I have shown that in > *my* experience there are. And agree, is unwise to discuss about > places > where one has no experience, when is better to learn from those > who have it. > > Cheers, > > Offray > >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

I think that there are some communities that are more receptive of live coding, beyond programmers. Scientist, journalists, hacktivists, data visualizers, musicians, come to mind and I have a better experience and more openness to live coding with them that with the "classical programmer/coder". With our recent Data Journalism Handbook, adaptation in Grafoscopio [1] and our recurrent Data Week hackathon+workshops[2], we're trying to reach new audiences and communities. [1] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/ [2] http://mutabit.com/dataweek/ Cheers, Offray On 07/10/17 07:40, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > Yes I agree with this > > Pharo is a live coding BASED enviroment. For Pharo live coding is not > just an easy to use feature it based its entire mentality around the > idea of live coding. > > Even though Smalltalk borrowed live coding and image format from Lisp > we are more "pure" in that regard even compared to Lisp.Â > > But one thing to note here is that live coding is not really that > useful when used always. At least for me I rely a lot on it for > debugging and experimenting. But when I work based on a plan , or code > just works I do not care so much about it.Â > > So my workflow in the end is semi-live coding because I dont feel I > need live coding 24/7 to be super productive.Â > > Of course that creates some barriers in the end when tools are not > made to work 24/7 on a live coding context. To that extend Pharo is > definetly superior and a true live coding enviroment. > > You are suprised that you can do live coding in C++ but I was trully > shocked.Â > > My saga to do live coding in C++ started as a joke, something to use > to mock C++ ugliness and weakness. But oh boy it did slap it back to > my face.Â > > The process is again simple, you wrap eveything inside a main loop,and > call in this loop functions (C has no objects obvious) or methods if > you use C++ from DLLs. Those DLLs obviously contain 99.9% of your > code. Because a DLL can be reloaded it allows you not to stop > executing and replace code on the fly. The main loop is wrapped inside > an exception to make sure the an error will never crash your > application, C/C++ exceptions are more powerful than Pharo live coding > in that regard because in Pharo if you do anything bad with UFFI and > crash it , it will crash for sure.Â > > If you keep the DLL small andÂ you use tons of small dlls your compile > times will be almost instantenous. You can also with very view lines > detect date signature change in source file and trigger background > compilation. Again few lines of code. The last mountain is live state, > in this case the executable pass a single pointer and instead of the > executable handling the memory its actually the dlls that handle it > but the executable because it cannot crash or exit will keep the live > state running. You can also use memory mapped file to store live state > as they perform pure memory dumps.Â > > All in all you will end up with 100 lines of code that can be wrapped > into a library and reused in the next project with zero setup. Its an > one time pain.Â > > Will I would recommend C++ over Pharo for live coding .... helll > no.... C++ obviously misses a hugely important live coding ingredient > which is reflection. We do live coding because we want to interact > with those objects ask questions about what is going on and why our > code does not work as intended > > However Python has no such limitation following a very similar design > to Smalltalk and being much more powerful language than C++. Python > follow very closely the Smalltalk paradigm even though there is not a > single mention of Smalltalk , anywhere in the Python community or of > live coding. > Â > Live coding in C++ has become a huge deal in game development mainly > because game development tend to want to change things on the fly and > games are so big with extremely long compile times. Unreal has made a > huge deal over its ability to hot reload C++Â code in its editor , > though I do not like its approach so much. > > Bottom line is yes its easy and simple to do live coding in other > languages, not recommended so much in C++ because of its static > compiled nature and lack of reflection but for dynamic language like > Python it can come pretty close and I speak from experience.Â > > At least I have not found something in Python that made me wish I was > liveÂ coding in Pharo so far, but then yes I still think its better to > have a full blown live coding. Also from my limited understanding I > have figured out that pretty much every language out there allows for > reloading code which is pretty much a very large requirement for live > coding.Â > > So yes you can live code to an extend, lesser in languages like C++ , > more so in language like Python, Ruby etc. Can you get the Pharo > experience ? In a dynamic language with the creation of a live coding > library you could get pretty close but never exactly the same. > > Pharo still is the undisputed king of live coding.Â > > Why live coding is not a huge thing in coding in general, I am willing > to bet it has more to do with coder mentality than language > limitation. When you are used to "deadÂ code" workflow it difficult to > switch. I struggle a lot to get use to the live coding workflow of > Pharo because I had to rewire my brain. But in the end you cannot > avoid live coding, there will be always scenarios you would want to > change things on the fly, reload code, store live state etc.Â > > In the end it more a coder flaw than it is a language flaw. I know we > love to blame languages for our mistakes.Â > > But in our back of our head we all know we debate over languages that > we barely use only 0.000001% of their true potential. We are too lazy > and sometimes we need someone to slam our face to the truth to > actually see it. And by we I dont mean the Pharo community but human > nature by itself.Â That's exactly what Pharo did for me that motivated > me exploring live coding in other languages.Â > > If it was not for Pharo I would still be doing the old slow method of > correct, compile, restart and repeat till you hate yourself.Â > > On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 1:57 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com > <mailto:horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > My point is that indeed you can do with EASE live coding in a > numerous > languages, at least to my experience. I have tried only Python and > C/C++. > > Until I came upon this thread, I never knew you could do live > coding in > Python and C/C++. And I was a professional C/C++ programmer for > over 15 > years! > > It is certainly a well-kept secret. I have found very little > information on > the web about doing live coding in these languages (in fact, > none). This > leads me to believe that the vast majority of Python and C/C++ > developers > don't know about, or don't do, live coding. > > Whether it's "easy" is rather subjective. I suspect it's not as > easy nor as > convenient as in Pharo. If it were, then live coding ought to be > much more > prevalent in the Python and C/C++ communities. After all, what > developer > doesn't want to improve their productivity or increase their > velocity of > development? > > The key differentiator here, I think, is that live coding is baked > into > Pharo/Smalltalk, thus making it natural to use. It is not natural > for Python > and C/C++ programmers. It would be difficult to convince the IT > industry to > adopt live coding en masse. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Well I was refering to live coding itself, but you are correct, I have not tried combining with literate coding hence why I was curious about the difficulties you ecountered. I did not know that you focused so much Grafoscopio on iterate coding. Thanks for enlighting me. I never implied that Python was easier in everything compared to Pharo. Afterall kinda misses a huge chunk which is the IDE itself. There lies the challange of live coding as I initially said that we each use it in a diffirent way. Thanks for the link also very enlighting and it is what i wanted, an actual use case. On Sat, Oct 7, 2017 at 5:49 PM Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > > > On 06/10/17 21:00, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > Again very generic statements , and I see you refer to tools and > > libraries instead of OOP. We talking here Pharo vs Python on the > > language level because Python obviously does not come with an IDE. But > > then Pharo does not come with literate programming tools or libraries > > as well. > > No. We were talking about things "that Pharo can do that Python can't do > or is most difficult". And, for me that includes the (community & > computing) environment provided by Pharo that allow you to go from and > idea to its implementation. In my case the idea was to provide an > experience which mix outlining (a la Leo Editor) with literate computing > (a la Jupyter, IPython) [1]. Even if the original pieces where already > there in Python, mixing them was a nighmare (at least 3 years ago) and > Pharo was more empowering for going from idea to prototype and now Pharo > has literate *computing* (not literate programming [2]) tools. > Grafoscopio is one of them. GT Documenter, in alpha now, is promising. > You can not have a single document for complex books in Jupyter. You > need to split/storage a single work in a "pile of files" metaphor. You > can, today, with Grafoscopio put a 300 pages long PDF in a single > notebook. So yes, there are things that are more complex in one > technology that in other (of course all computer languages are the same > at enough distance, because all them are Turing complete and all that > stuff) > > [1] > > http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/on-deepness-and-complexi… > [2] > http://blog.fperez.org/2013/04/literate-computing-and-computational.html > > > > > I rather not go down the rabbit hole of third party libraries because > > obviously I cannot participate in a discussion about libraries and > > areas of coding, I know nothing about. Plus Python has countless of > > libraries which makes a very longer discussion even if I was familiar > > with them and Pharo has much less but still quite a lot of libraries > > as well. > > One of the advantages of being in a community is learning from others > experiences. You said that in your experience you have not found a place > where Python were more difficult that in Pharo. I have shown that in > *my* experience there are. And agree, is unwise to discuss about places > where one has no experience, when is better to learn from those who have > it. > > Cheers, > > Offray > > >

Oct. 7, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

On 06/10/17 21:00, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > Again very generic statements , and I see you refer to tools and > libraries instead of OOP. We talking here Pharo vs Python on the > language level because Python obviously does not come with an IDE. But > then Pharo does not come with literate programming tools or libraries > as well. No. We were talking about things "that Pharo can do that Python can't do or is most difficult". And, for me that includes the (community & computing) environment provided by Pharo that allow you to go from and idea to its implementation. In my case the idea was to provide an experience which mix outlining (a la Leo Editor) with literate computing (a la Jupyter, IPython) [1]. Even if the original pieces where already there in Python, mixing them was a nighmare (at least 3 years ago) and Pharo was more empowering for going from idea to prototype and now Pharo has literate *computing* (not literate programming [2]) tools. Grafoscopio is one of them. GT Documenter, in alpha now, is promising. You can not have a single document for complex books in Jupyter. You need to split/storage a single work in a "pile of files" metaphor. You can, today, with Grafoscopio put a 300 pages long PDF in a single notebook. So yes, there are things that are more complex in one technology that in other (of course all computer languages are the same at enough distance, because all them are Turing complete and all that stuff) [1] http://mutabit.com/offray/static/blog/output/posts/on-deepness-and-complexi… [2] http://blog.fperez.org/2013/04/literate-computing-and-computational.html > > I rather not go down the rabbit hole of third party libraries because > obviously I cannot participate in a discussion about libraries and > areas of coding, I know nothing about. Plus Python has countless of > libraries which makes a very longer discussion even if I was familiar > with them and Pharo has much less but still quite a lot of libraries > as well. One of the advantages of being in a community is learning from others experiences. You said that in your experience you have not found a place where Python were more difficult that in Pharo. I have shown that in *my* experience there are. And agree, is unwise to discuss about places where one has no experience, when is better to learn from those who have it. Cheers, Offray

Oct. 7, 2017