October 2017 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Esteban A. Maringolo

You're mixing modularization, namespacing, packaging and parametrization. If we're speaking about modules/namespaces I rather call them as such, not Pink Elephant. Having an agreement on the terms semantic is important for any communication. To me a module is not a factorization for the bootstrap process nor the proper packaging to enable partial loading, a module must be reified as such. The only Smalltalks I remember had something closer to a module were VisualSmalltalk and maybe VisualWorks binary parcels can be thought as modules, but strictly speaking none of them implement modules as such. Only Modtalk tried to do that, but the project seems defunct now. Regards, Esteban A. Maringolo 2017-10-13 12:00 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > Modularisation is coming whether you like it or not > its called > > Bootstrap > > And the more modular the image will get the more will get closer to > namespaces anyway. So frankly all I have to do is wait and if I can of > course contribute ;) > > You can call it Bootstrap or the Pink Elephant for all I care, in the end > for me its about having multi layer system. That's all I care. > > But you wont get an argument from me the more about the fact that the more > we wait the harder will get but again, I am not a Bootstrap contributor so I > have no right to complain. I really admire those people :D > > Modularisation for personal project is super easy to do,if you do it from > the start that is, its the existing code that is a pain in the hat to > modularise when until fairly recently even colors were hard coded into the > IDE. > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 3:55 PM Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> 2017-10-13 5:55 GMT-03:00 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: >> > >> >> Am 13.10.2017 um 10:24 schrieb stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl>: >> >> >> >> On 13-10-17 09:55, Thierry Goubier wrote: >> >>> Because namespaces, by essence, come with serious issues. I won't take >> >>> someone seriously on namespaces until he can cite those faithfully. >> >> >> >> Let's start with the misconception that namespaces are about >> >> modularisation >> >> >> > +1 >> >> +1 to this as well. >> >> Having modularization is like having security, very hard to add them >> later if you didn't include it in the original design. >> >> I'm using VisualWorks these days, and I find its namespaces something >> more of a hassle than a real use. >> >> If we could name Classes with a dot, that could solve most of what >> namespaces are used for in practice: avoiding name colissions. >> That's why most of the popular frameworks have prefixes like Zn, WA, >> RB, and so on and so forth. But now I'm used to prefixes, I don't need >> them. :) >> >> Modularity is a different beast, if you look at how some modules work >> in JS, like AMD, you see that in practice they avoid collisions by >> importin what they need from a module, and assign it to a "namespace" >> (it is not, but works as such), so they get modules first, and >> namespacing later. >> >> Regards, >> >> Esteban. >> >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Ricardo Pacheco

Great, I will have a look at them. I registered to participate in the MOOC starting on Oct 16, so look forward to contribute back a bit. Ricardo -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Dimitris Chloupis

Modularisation is coming whether you like it or not its called Bootstrap And the more modular the image will get the more will get closer to namespaces anyway. So frankly all I have to do is wait and if I can of course contribute ;) You can call it Bootstrap or the Pink Elephant for all I care, in the end for me its about having multi layer system. That's all I care. But you wont get an argument from me the more about the fact that the more we wait the harder will get but again, I am not a Bootstrap contributor so I have no right to complain. I really admire those people :D Modularisation for personal project is super easy to do,if you do it from the start that is, its the existing code that is a pain in the hat to modularise when until fairly recently even colors were hard coded into the IDE. On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 3:55 PM Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2017-10-13 5:55 GMT-03:00 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: > > > >> Am 13.10.2017 um 10:24 schrieb stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl>: > >> > >> On 13-10-17 09:55, Thierry Goubier wrote: > >>> Because namespaces, by essence, come with serious issues. I won't take > >>> someone seriously on namespaces until he can cite those faithfully. > >> > >> Let's start with the misconception that namespaces are about > modularisation > >> > > +1 > > +1 to this as well. > > Having modularization is like having security, very hard to add them > later if you didn't include it in the original design. > > I'm using VisualWorks these days, and I find its namespaces something > more of a hassle than a real use. > > If we could name Classes with a dot, that could solve most of what > namespaces are used for in practice: avoiding name colissions. > That's why most of the popular frameworks have prefixes like Zn, WA, > RB, and so on and so forth. But now I'm used to prefixes, I don't need > them. :) > > Modularity is a different beast, if you look at how some modules work > in JS, like AMD, you see that in practice they avoid collisions by > importin what they need from a module, and assign it to a "namespace" > (it is not, but works as such), so they get modules first, and > namespacing later. > > Regards, > > Esteban. > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Pillar (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Hi, I have created a document in Grafoscopio. The source file is a single Grafoscopio notebook in STON [1] (~600kb), the output is a single Pandoc's Markdown file[2] (~500kb), and you can produce the output as a PDF file like in [3] (~13Mb). Pandoc has a lot of maturity and a community with a lot of momentum, dedicated mainly to light documentation. If we have support for Pandoc's Markdown on Pharo, we can leverage on that knowledge and tools without reinventing the wheel. Of course using AST and a lot of infrastructure behind Pillar can be used, without falling in love with its syntax. [1] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/doc/tip/mapeda.ston [2] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/doc/tip/mapeda.markdown [3] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/uv/mapeda.pdf Cheers, Offray On 13/10/17 08:21, H. Hirzel wrote: > Interoperability with pandoc is desirable > > Some people want MSWord documents and they provide input in the form > of MSWord documents. > Or LibreOffice ODT. > > pandoc handles that well for a subset of MSWord options. > > pandoc allows you as well to write a custom output format -- in this > case Pillar. > > E.g. conversion from MSWord docx to Pillar is possible. > > It would need somebody to look into the issue of doing some Lua scripting. > pandoc has Lua embedded for output generation. > > > --Hannes > > > P.S. I will have some time later for Pillar issues (not Lua), but the > document model and generation of slides. Still open issue on my list > is rendering Pillar on Morphic, in particular slide. > > > On 10/13/17, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Why exporting to latex, html and markdown is not enough for you ? >> >> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:05 PM Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:18:54 +0000 >>> Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Well there is a move towards Pillar for class and method commands so >>>> who knows maybe we will have that soon enough ;) >>> Let me say that I'm very happy seeing that Pillar is moving forward (e.g. >>> addition of support for footnotes) as well as plan for the future (*.epub >>> support) since I'm considering whether it could serve as single-source >>> markup >>> for all of one's writings? >>> >>> After migrating from Python-powered static-site-generator (to Hugo) and >>> rst >>> markup I was considering to use AsciiDoc(tor) markup for all my content, >>> but, >>> so far, due to using Emacsm settled to use org-mode instead. Haven't >>> tried >>> with >>> slides (yet), but there is Pandoc support for it. >>> >>> Therefore, I'd rather see Pillar support in Pandoc which would buy us >>> even >>> more >>> import/export capabilities for free instead of focusing on single formats >>> like >>> *.odt, *.epub etc. >>> >>> Pillar with 1st class support in Pandoc would, imho, improve status of >>> Pharo >>> itself making it along with Pillar exceelent tool for development as well >>> as >>> for all writing needs - articles, books, documentation, >>> slide-presentations. >>> >>> But it would be nice to make it more transparent where/how can one submit >>> feature request for Pillar? >>> >>> Fogbugs issue trakcer is certainly not the ideal place these days... >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Gour >>> >>> -- >>> Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities >>> he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no >>> one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment. >>> >>> >>> >>> >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Vitor Medina Cruz

I completely agree with Ben. As for Dimitris, I have some points: There numerous reason why this kind of thinking is fundamental flawed, if > not completely wrong > > 1) How you get people to run in this race ? > > 2) What makes you think that people participating in the race doing to get > first or even finish ? > > 3) How you are certain that those barriers are not the very reason people > participate ? > > The fundamental problem is that if you base your assumption that people > are motivated on avoidance of pain, this is a very popular argument by the > way, you going to be severely disapointed. From the very first fact that > there is a 90% chance that right now that you use almost 100% of your time > one of the worst software to be ever created. > > Microsoft Windows. > > Of course you can throw claims to me that peope use Windows because that > is whatâs popular and widely available, but then so is MacOS is by far the > easiest to use OS out there. When you pit Windows vs Macos a such taboo > subject , fuel to so many flame wars, there is one thing that both sides > agree on and that is that MacOS is far easier to use , perdiod. The rest of > the debate which OS is the best is up in the air and frankly not the point > of my argument. > I think you are missing one point here: people get used to Windows, using windows with all itâs quirks and nonsenses became strong reinforced habits for most people, and that is something REALLY hard change. The fact is , we love pain, we love barriers, we love doors that slam into > our face. We love challange. But only if we find it interesting. > See, I think thatâs not the point, the point is that people are very resistant to any change in their habits, so much thatâs usually better to short-circuit into their habits to make a change instead of trying to force a hard change on them. That is why I think Ben point of view is not flawed at all, on the contrary, removing barriers is a way to make Pharo seems more like what people are habituated, short-circuiting peoples habits into Pharo usage. Withing time, people better understanding of Pharo may trigger small, but incremental, changes to itâs habits to get the âA-ha!!!â moment where live code and all wonders of Pharo make sense. I frankly read very loosely the rest of you answer ( :) :P ), but I get you are not interested in making Pharo popular rather than get really interested, open minded people on borad so to make it even more amazing, but I also disagree here (in part :) ). There are lotâs of people who could do better for the community if the entrance were easier, more popularity could means more opportunity in job field and, in a more philosophical matter, a way to make the whole current programming field better. Of course, with more popularity comes disadvantages as well, some of which you already said, which can be addressed, but if this is price to pay I personally think it is worth it. On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 4:00 AM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > That is a familiar path, but still an obstacle for people to get over in >> trying Pharo - i.e. its a barrier of entry. I've previously referred to >> this article by JoelOnSoftware, but to pull out a key part... "Think of >> these barriers as an obstacle course that people have to run before you can >> count them as your customers. If you start out with a field of 1000 >> runners, about half of them will trip on the tires; half of the survivors >> wonât be strong enough to jump the wall; half of those survivors will fall >> off the rope ladder into the mud, and so on, until only 1 or 2 people >> actually overcome all the hurdles. With 8 or 9 barriers, everybody will >> have one non-negotiable deal killer. This calculus means that eliminating >> barriers to switching is the most important thing you have to do if you >> want to take over an existing market, because eliminating just one barrier >> will likely double your sales. Eliminate two barriers, and youâll double >> your sales again." >> >> > > ****WARNING LONG POST AHEAD**** > > There numerous reason why this kind of thinking is fundamental flawed, if > not completely wrong > > 1) How you get people to run in this race ? > 2) What makes you think that people participating in the race doing to get > first or even finish ? > 3) How you are certain that those barriers are not the very reason people > participate ? > > The fundamental problem is that if you base your assumption that people > are motivated on avoidance of pain, this is a very popular argument by the > way, you going to be severely disapointed. From the very first fact that > there is a 90% chance that right now that you use almost 100% of your time > one of the worst software to be ever created. > > Microsoft Windows. > > Of course you can throw claims to me that peope use Windows because that > is what's popular and widely available, but then so is MacOS is by far the > easiest to use OS out there. When you pit Windows vs Macos a such taboo > subject , fuel to so many flame wars, there is one thing that both sides > agree on and that is that MacOS is far easier to use , perdiod. The rest of > the debate which OS is the best is up in the air and frankly not the point > of my argument. > > The fact is , we love pain, we love barriers, we love doors that slam into > our face. We love challange. But only if we find it interesting. > > Of course Windows is not the only example (C/C++ , Java , Web dev, > computer games and the list is just endless)of the machocistic nature of > human beings. I dont need to look far, my own story about how I started > coding is more than enough . I am going to ramble about my initiation to > the realm of coding , so feel free to ignore the rest of my post but what > the hell here we go. > > From an early age , no idea when, I was exposed to the idea of the > computer. Never used one before or saw on in person other than what I saw > in the TV I asked my father to get me one and he agreed on the ground that > I wont use it just to play games but to learn how to code. My father had no > idea what coding is, had no idea what technology is, to this day he hates > technology and he refuses to learn even how to close a window. None , > friend , relative or random stranger I knew used a computer. > > So I got this weird thing called computer and turned it on, of course > motivated to play games like any other kind in my age, I was 9 years old at > the time, december 1988. But I had a sense of honor even from that age so I > had to keep my promise. So I did and I was fascinated by it, to the degree > that I was coding as much I was playing games. Problem is that it was > mainly masochistic venture. I had one book and one book alone, none that > had any clue how to show how to turn this thing on and of course no > internet, no schools, no magazines I could afford to buy or even know where > to buy them . So in 3 years, I made nothing special, only tiny fragments of > code and I was still struggling with basic concept like looping. > > Yes, looping. > > But I already was doing things that a greek kid did not suppose to do and > I did not even fit the geek stereotype at the time (not that the term > existed at the time, I still does not exist in my language), I had tons of > friends, I was anything but shy , I was the craziest nosiest kid suffering > from the annoying syndrom of hyperactivity and with very lmited attention > span. > > I was the absolute worst candidate to learn how to code, yet I did . Sort > of. Then my father decided to send me, after me begging on my knees, on a > prrivate school, that just opened near our neighborhood for learning. At > the time time I only still had the same computer, Amstrad CPC 6128 and knew > the very basics of Locomotive Basic which was used also by the computer as > a bash like language for its OS. > > I went 3 years, the first year I did ok, an average student even though I > had by far the most experience than other kids we learned GWBASIC. The > second year I did terrible, we learned DBASE and the third we learned > CLIPPER and blow any other student completely away, I was the only to > graduate with 99.8% and our teacher was super strict on the matter of > grades. But I wanted more. > > So I went and learned C++ and assembly because why not and when I told my > teacher that, he was looking me with his eye wide open, took me quite a > lenghy discussion to convince him that this was true. > > The reason why the first year I did average was that it was too easy. I > was already familiar with Basic , sure I was struggling with basic concepts > when I started but under the wing of the teacher (he was a great teacher, > professional coder and highly skilled at helping you understand even the > most difficult concepts) and full access to multiple books in few months > became a walk in the park. The second year was a disaster, partly because > our teacher decided to hire a relative of his to teach us DBASE and the guy > was a moron wasting his time with telling jokes. The truth is that I did > not like and still dont like database coding. Clipper I fall in love with > it at the time because still a database orientated language but our teacher > tought us, his relative got sacked as soon as he learned that he sucked, > that happened one year after because none of the kids had the courage to go > tell him and it was probably a parent the told him and did so well I was > even offered to make a database for a considerable amount of money. Said > no. Again not interested. > > My story is nothing special, I heard it in slightly diffirent versions by > countless others in a similar situation however my point is not to brag, > because lets face it I was just merely learning languages and not doing any > serious coding , my point is that the drive behind it was the pain. Was the > obstacles. Was the challange. > > Pharo for me is also the same story. At the time I was coding in Python, > super easy, got the job done, had no intention learning another language > because why bother when they all look the same and they would have been > much less powerful than Python. I was super happy with Python and still is > one of my favorite language as you all know. Then I saw people on forums > rambling about this weird language called Lisp , I was interested, google a > tutorial , saw the parentheses , said "hell no!" and carried on coding in > python. Then even more people claiming that it was so amazing, that it can > cure cancer and make you super sexy. I always wanted to be super sexy so I > said, ok lets give this a serious try. So I bought a book called "Land of > Lisp" very fun to read, terrible teaching material, messy and all over the > place. Community was terrible too (Common Lisp), at least some people, > rude, snobs, evangelistic and plain stupid. A minority of people but still > enough to ruin your day.Then I was introduced to emacs, another super > painful experience, thoroughly enjoyed and one day I mentioned how cool it > would be if one could combine the simplicity of Lisp with emacs but via a > GUI IDE and without elisp which was hog slow. People immediately > recommended Squeak, I though they were messing with me because none would > pick such a ridiculous name for a language. Looked to me like a toy > language for kids and then it hit my face like a train. > > Pain, pain and more pain. > > But it was well worth, I was completely blown away from the elegance of > Smalltalk. > > The learning curve of Smalltalk and Lisp are plain insane. Made learningh > DOS Assembly a walk in the park in comparison. > > But frankly thats half of the fun. > > Many obstacles, many challanges. > > And there lies my point that an obstacle is a good thing when it becomes > an interesting challange. You have to have at least a degree of masochism > to learn how to code in any language. Of course the question is what makes > an interesting challange and welcome to the abyss that is called "human > brain". None knows and we are not anywhere close in finding out. > > What we know is that documentation is super important , whether you are a > masochist or not, you need it to progress. Problems is that documentation > is hard to create and maintain, again masochism required. So we should not > just worry about making it easier for people to reach documentation we > should make it easier for people to maintain it. Because even masochism has > its limits. Those limits are as far it is a pleasureable pain. > > So congratulations to anyone reading this long post , you already proven > my point. > > Thus, let embrace the pain of Pharo and the pain of smalltalk and instead > of trying to make it easy, boring and usual. Lets turn it to a challange, > lets turn it to a painful yet pleasureable experience > > I think to that extend we in a very good path, I think Pharo is definetly > a fun experience to use and learn. > > A huge plus also for Pharo is the community and how welcoming it is, we > take for granted but my experience with Python was not the best either. I > joined the IRC channel, other than having to endure the stupidity of "say > lol 3 times and you are banned" , too many wars over languages and how > superior Python is than anything else. Guido is god and blah blah blah... > No thanks. > > People here are open minded, still "religious" about Smaltalk but they > actually want to help , not to teach, actually help. > > I think we are a bit too obsessed on how to make Pharo popular, > Smalltalkers suffer from this insecurity of the "failure" of the "best > language of the world" not only to become popular but also to convince > coders that "is not a a relic of the past". > > But we are fine, documentation is doing grear, Pharo is improving rapidly > , the community is welcoming as ever. All we need is embrace our successes > and our failures, reject the hype, consider the crticism and accept it or > reject it and generally carry on doing what we all love. > > Improving Pharo. > > ;) >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Pillar (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by H. Hirzel

Interoperability with pandoc is desirable Some people want MSWord documents and they provide input in the form of MSWord documents. Or LibreOffice ODT. pandoc handles that well for a subset of MSWord options. pandoc allows you as well to write a custom output format -- in this case Pillar. E.g. conversion from MSWord docx to Pillar is possible. It would need somebody to look into the issue of doing some Lua scripting. pandoc has Lua embedded for output generation. --Hannes P.S. I will have some time later for Pillar issues (not Lua), but the document model and generation of slides. Still open issue on my list is rendering Pillar on Morphic, in particular slide. On 10/13/17, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Why exporting to latex, html and markdown is not enough for you ? > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:05 PM Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:18:54 +0000 >> Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > Well there is a move towards Pillar for class and method commands so >> > who knows maybe we will have that soon enough ;) >> >> Let me say that I'm very happy seeing that Pillar is moving forward (e.g. >> addition of support for footnotes) as well as plan for the future (*.epub >> support) since I'm considering whether it could serve as single-source >> markup >> for all of one's writings? >> >> After migrating from Python-powered static-site-generator (to Hugo) and >> rst >> markup I was considering to use AsciiDoc(tor) markup for all my content, >> but, >> so far, due to using Emacsm settled to use org-mode instead. Haven't >> tried >> with >> slides (yet), but there is Pandoc support for it. >> >> Therefore, I'd rather see Pillar support in Pandoc which would buy us >> even >> more >> import/export capabilities for free instead of focusing on single formats >> like >> *.odt, *.epub etc. >> >> Pillar with 1st class support in Pandoc would, imho, improve status of >> Pharo >> itself making it along with Pillar exceelent tool for development as well >> as >> for all writing needs - articles, books, documentation, >> slide-presentations. >> >> But it would be nice to make it more transparent where/how can one submit >> feature request for Pillar? >> >> Fogbugs issue trakcer is certainly not the ideal place these days... >> >> >> Sincerely, >> Gour >> >> -- >> Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities >> he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no >> one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment. >> >> >> >> >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Andrew Glynn

I agree with you that difficulty is half the fun, assuming you're a developer - developers solve problems, so if there weren't any we'd be a bit out of luck.Â Â For myself I've somehow never, in a 26+ year career, worked on maintaining code. I've only ever written new code. in factÂ Â I usually wind up with the things nobody, me included, has a clue of how to do, tending to make them even more difficult.Â Â On a project last year the 'technical unknowns' could be boiled down from the 5 page document I was given to one word, 'everything', including what the customer (the government, unsurprisingly), actually meant by any of the terms used in the requirements, since even common networking terms like VPN mean something different to government employees, apparently, than to anyone else in the world. It's rewriting the same or incredibly similar rote code because we start from the same basic point on every project that gets on my nerves; writing new and often difficult code, or learning new and often difficult languages, even learning unfamiliar domain specific terminology, are the reasons I'm still a developer.Â Â Difficulty though ought to come with a bit of power.Â Â JavaScript can be extremely difficult, but when it's difficult and the result is that a page widget appears in the right place, it doesn't feel like much of an accomplishment.Â Â Electron apps can be difficult, though the difficulty isn't in writing them, but in building them and getting them to actually run, especially if you're supporting Mac as well as Windows. Unless I'm writing a VM (which I haven't done very much of at all) the difficulties with CLANG, SLANG, along with about a dozen other tools, just to build a simple application, doesn't feel like much of an accomplishment either. At least not to me, I guess it does to some people though.Â Â I have noticed a squeaky wheel effect: technologies that 'just work' get quickly forgotten, because there aren't 3 million people on slashdot or wherever asking questions about how to get them to work. JINI (now Apache River) is a good example (especially in Java, where not much 'just works'), when the new cars that automagically connect your cell phone and tablet to their own 4G were designed, they had to write JINI clients for C and whatever other languages they use, because that's what does all the automagic.Â Â But not many people even remember it exists. One thing I do disagree with you on is that people prefer Windows. It seems to me that Windows is more popular due to price, and maybe due to the relative ease of controlling access centrally, more than anything, and even given the lower prices on (at least as far as obvious specs go) equivalent machines, I can't think of anyone I know off the top of my head who would use Windows if they could afford a Mac, and everyone I know who can, does use one. Â I had to write a Mac app for Charles Schwab that would run on any home Mac (down to G4 based Macs with a half gig of RAM that could run at best OS X 10.5) with equivalent features to a Windows app that required 16GB RAM to load and 24GB to run decently, because the majority of the professional stock traders who use Windows all day at work have Macs at home (of course they can largely afford them). Â If I'm not developing or testing I admittedly most often use a Macbook myself.Â Â I do use Windows on my tablet, since it can run a full version of Win 10 x64 (not the useless RT version) and therefore nearly any Windows program.Â Â I won the tablet at HP at the xmas party though, and with a quad-core Atom CPU and 8GB RAM it's not really an average tablet. Even then, I only use it if stuck somewhere for a while with nothing to do.Â So I have to admit, if I'm not developing I don't enjoy difficulty much.Â Â Nor do most of the end users I know.Â I do know a few masochists who prefer Linux to Mac, most of whom don't run a UI.Â Â The few who do use MATE, which while being both ugly and lacking any notable capabilities, never mind applications, doesn't use much memory. Â Exactly why a third of a GB of RAM is relevant today I'm not sure, when both Atom and Sublime Text use more memory than Ubuntu, Kubuntu or OS X for that matter, but they seem to feel it's radically important.Â Â Sublime Text makes me think of Hegel's definition of The Sublime: "the night where all cows are black" âº. I'll use Linux if my Thinkpad is handier. It runs OEL with KDE, so it's not difficult (unless you want anything by Adobe, lol), and it's pretty quick. Though ironically the Macbook is still quicker, though it has half the RAM and an i7 that's 2 generations older.Â Â I visited a friend at the IBM lab I used to work at a few months ago, and since they know me pretty well at security, I had no problem getting a visitor badge.Â Â Walking through the area where they write among other things, DB2 UDB, InfoSphere, WebSphere and associated products, and all of ibm.com I glanced in the cubicles as I went to my friend's desk, and the majority of the developers were using Macbooks. The only people with Thinkpads were managers.Â Â So maybe developers like difficulty, but not quite as much with things that are supposed to be already developed.Â Â It could just be easier to give them Macbooks than to try to get security to let them have local admin rights on Windows ... Best quote I've seen on Windows, particularly given the source:Â "With luck, this will start Windows, and a dialogue box will appear and tell you the default drive onto which IADS will be installed.Â Â If Windows doesn't start up, you could always try launching Windows manually."Â - IADS Manual, U.S. Army. Â Since IADS requires Windows 7 at minimum, exactly how you 'launch it manually' is beyond me, but then again I'm not in the military, and they seem to be able to write software in ADA (software that runs, even).Â Â Although the Army writes IADS, it's used by virtually every government department, not only in the U.S. but in Canada as well - it's AFAIK the only open source, free, true WYSIWYG SGML editor, and given FrameMaker is $999 a license, free becomes relevant when you have a lot of employees. It has to have the worst name of any software in the world, excepting maybe Eclipse VIATRA. cheersAndrew GlynnÂ Â Â -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 07:00:46 +0000Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern SmalltalkTo: Any question about pharo is welcome <pha ro-users(a)lists.pharo.org>Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org>From: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail .com> > That is a familiar path, but still an obstacle for people to get over > in trying Pharo - i.e. its a barrier of entry.Â I've previously > referred to this article by JoelOnSoftware, but to pull out a key > part... "Think of these barriers as an obstacle course that people > have to run before you can count them as your customers. If you start > out with a field of 1000 runners, about half of them will trip on the > tires; half of the survivors wonât be strong enough to jump the wall; > half of those survivors will fall off the rope ladder into the mud, > and so on, until only 1 or 2 people actually overcome all the > hurdles. With 8 or 9 barriers, everybody will have one non-negotiable > deal killer.Â This calculus means that eliminating barriers to > switching is the most important thing you have to do if you want to > take over an existing market, because eliminating just one barrier > will likely double your sales. Eliminate two barriers, and youâll > double your sales again." > Â ****WARNING LONG POST AHEAD****Â There numerous reason why this kind of thinking is fundamental flawed, if not completely wrong 1) How you get people to run in this race ? 2) What makes you think that people participating in the race doing to get first or even finish ? 3) How you are certain that those barriers are not the very reason people participate ? The fundamental problem is that if you base your assumption that people are motivated on avoidance of pain, this is a very popular argument by the way, you going to be severely disapointed. From the very first fact that there is a 90% chance that right now that you use almost 100% of your time one of the worst software to be ever created.Â Microsoft Windows.Â Of course you can throw claims to me that peope use Windows because that is what's popular and widely available, but then so is MacOS is by far the easiest to use OS out there. When you pit Windows vs Macos a such taboo subject , fuel to so many flame wars, there is one thing that both sides agree on and that is that MacOS is far easier to use , perdiod. The rest of the debate which OS is the best is up in the air and frankly not the point of my argument.Â The fact is , we love pain, we love barriers, we love doors that slam into our face. We love challange. But only if we find it interesting.Â Of course Windows is not the only exampleÂ Â (C/C++ , Java , Web dev, computer games and the list is just endless)of the machocistic nature of human beings. I dont need to look far, my own story about how I started coding is more than enough . I am going to ramble about my initiation to the realm of coding , so feel free to ignore the rest of my post but what the hell here we go.Â >From an early age , no idea when, I was exposed to the idea of the computer. Never used one before or saw on in person other than what I saw in the TV I asked my father to get me one and he agreed on the ground that I wont use it just to play games but to learn how to code. My father had no idea what coding is, had no idea what technology is, to this day he hates technology and he refuses to learn even how to close a window. None , friend , relative or random stranger I knew used a computer. So I got this weird thing called computer and turned it on, of course motivated to play games like any other kind in my age, I was 9 years old at the time, december 1988. But I had a sense of honor even from that age so I had to keep my promise. So I did and I was fascinated by it, to the degree that I was coding as much I was playing games. Problem is that it was mainly masochistic venture. I had one book and one book alone, none that had any clue how to show how to turn this thing on and of course no internet, no schools, no magazines I could afford to buy or even know where to buy them . So in 3 years, I made nothing special, only tiny fragments of code and I was still struggling with basic concept like looping. Yes, looping. Â But I already was doing things that a greek kid did not suppose to do and I did not even fit the geek stereotype at the time (not that the term existed at the time, I still does not exist in my language), I had tons of friends, I was anything but shy , I was the craziest nosiest kid suffering from the annoying syndrom of hyperactivity and with very lmited attention span.Â I was the absolute worst candidate to learn how to code, yet I did . Sort of. Then my father decided to send me, after me begging on my knees, on a prrivate school, that just opened near our neighborhood for learning. At the time time I only still had the same computer, Amstrad CPC 6128 and knew the very basics of Locomotive Basic which was used also by the computer as a bash like language for its OS.Â I went 3 years, the first year I did ok, an average student even though I had by far the most experience than other kids we learned GWBASIC. The second year I did terrible, we learned DBASE and the third we learned CLIPPER and blow any other student completely away, I was the only to graduate with 99.8% and our teacher was super strict on the matter of grades. But I wanted more.Â So I went and learned C++ and assembly because why not and when I told my teacher that, he was looking me with his eye wide open, took me quite a lenghy discussion to convince him that this was true.Â The reason why the first year I did average was that it was too easy. I was already familiar with Basic , sure I was struggling with basic concepts when I started butÂ Â under the wing of the teacher (he was a great teacher, professional coder and highly skilled at helping you understand even the most difficult concepts) and full access to multiple books in few months became a walk in the park. The second year was a disaster, partly because our teacher decided to hire a relative of his to teach us DBASE and the guy was a moron wasting his time with telling jokes. The truth is that I did not like and still dont like database coding. Clipper I fall in love with it at the time because still a database orientated language but our teacher tought us, his relative got sacked as soon as he learned that he sucked, that happened one year after because none of the kids had the courage to go tell him and it was probably a parent the told him and did so well I was even offered to make a database for a considerable amount of money. Said no. Again not interested.Â My story is nothing special, I heard it in slightly diffirent versions by countless others in a similar situation however my point isÂ not to brag, because lets face it I was just merely learning languages and not doing any serious coding , my point is that the drive behind it was the pain. Was the obstacles. Was the challange.Â Pharo for me is also the same story. At the time I was coding in Python, super easy, got the job done, had no intention learning another language because why bother when they all look the same and they would have been much less powerful than Python. I was super happy with Python and still is one of my favorite language as you all know. Then I saw people on forums rambling about this weird language called Lisp , I was interested, google a tutorial , saw the parentheses , said "hell no!" and carried on coding in python. Then even more people claiming that it was so amazing, that it can cure cancer and make you super sexy. I always wanted to be super sexy so I said, ok lets give this a serious try. So I bought a book called "Land of Lisp" very fun to read, terrible teaching material, messy and all over the place. Community was terrible too (Common Lisp), at least some people, rude, snobs, evangelistic and plain stupid. A minority of people but still enough to ruin your day.Then I was introduced to emacs, another super painful experience, thoroughly enjoyed and one day I mentioned how cool it would be if one could combine the simplicity of Lisp with emacs but via a GUI IDE and without elisp which was hog slow. People immediately recommended Squeak, I though they were messing with me because none would pick such a ridiculous name for a language. Looked to me like a toy language for kids and then it hit my face like a train.Â Pain, pain and more pain.Â But it was well worth, I was completely blown away from the elegance of Smalltalk. The learning curve of Smalltalk and Lisp are plain insane. Made learningh DOS Assembly a walk in the park in comparison.Â But frankly thats half of the fun.Â Many obstacles, many challanges.Â And there lies my point that an obstacle is a good thing when it becomes an interesting challange. You have to have at least a degree of masochism to learn how to code in any language. Of course the question is what makes an interesting challange and welcome to the abyss that is called "human brain". None knows and we are not anywhere close in finding out.Â What we know is that documentation is super important , whether you are a masochist or not, you need it to progress. Problems is that documentation is hard to create and maintain, again masochism required. So we should not just worry about making it easier for people to reach documentation we should make it easier for people to maintain it. Because even masochism has its limits. Those limits are as far it is a pleasureable pain.Â So congratulations to anyone reading this long post , you already proven my point. Thus, let embrace the pain of Pharo and the pain of smalltalk and instead of trying to make it easy, boring and usual. Lets turn it to a challange, lets turn it to a painful yet pleasureable experienceÂ I think to that extend we in a very good path, I think Pharo is definetly a fun experience to use and learn.Â A huge plus also for Pharo is the community and how welcoming it is, we take for granted but my experience with Python was not the best either. I joined the IRC channel, other than having to endure the stupidity of "say lol 3 times and you are banned" , too many wars over languages and how superior Python is than anything else. Guido is god and blah blah blah... No thanks.Â People here are open minded, still "religious" about Smaltalk but they actually want to help , not to teach, actually help.Â I think we are a bit too obsessed on how to make Pharo popular, Smalltalkers suffer from this insecurity of the "failure" of the "best language of the world" not only to become popular but also to convince coders that "is not a a relic of the past".Â Â But we are fine, documentation is doing grear, Pharo is improving rapidly , the community is welcoming as ever. All we need is embrace our successes and our failures, reject the hype, consider the crticism and accept it or reject it and generally carry on doing what we all love.Â Improving Pharo.Â ;)

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2017-10-13 5:55 GMT-03:00 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: > >> Am 13.10.2017 um 10:24 schrieb stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl>: >> >> On 13-10-17 09:55, Thierry Goubier wrote: >>> Because namespaces, by essence, come with serious issues. I won't take >>> someone seriously on namespaces until he can cite those faithfully. >> >> Let's start with the misconception that namespaces are about modularisation >> > +1 +1 to this as well. Having modularization is like having security, very hard to add them later if you didn't include it in the original design. I'm using VisualWorks these days, and I find its namespaces something more of a hassle than a real use. If we could name Classes with a dot, that could solve most of what namespaces are used for in practice: avoiding name colissions. That's why most of the popular frameworks have prefixes like Zn, WA, RB, and so on and so forth. But now I'm used to prefixes, I don't need them. :) Modularity is a different beast, if you look at how some modules work in JS, like AMD, you see that in practice they avoid collisions by importin what they need from a module, and assign it to a "namespace" (it is not, but works as such), so they get modules first, and namespacing later. Regards, Esteban.

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Ben Coman

I played C019SD-W1-S1-EN-V1.mp4 and as well as the english voice, in the background I can still hear your original french voice. I'm curious the reasoning for this. cheers -ben On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 3:59 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I'm about to release the en versions. > you can find them unofficially on http://www.stephaneducasse.eu/MOOC/ > > Stef > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 10:10 PM, Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > > On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:31:55 +0200 > > Stephane Ducasse > > <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hello Stef, > > > >> I will ask one guy thursday and let you know. > > > > Thanks a lot! > > > >> We will release Mooc with english voices (not mine else english > >> natives would get an heart attack - I have what they call a sexy > >> french accents ;) > > > > I did watch few of your Pharo-related presentations and, although not > native, > > happily survived. :-) > > > > Moreover, I'd say that your English is charming! At least, one is sure > that the > > real human is speaking and not some "robot" put on auto-pilot, so if the > new > > Mooc is going to be the same as the current/old one, I'd prefer to > download > > the current files and watched them along with *.srt subtitles? > > > > Iow. my point is that the accent is just one part of the talk/teaching, > but the > > energy behind it is much more imporant - this is, my conviction, based > on my > > own teaching experiences. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > Gour > > > > -- > > From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion > > bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, > > intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost > > one falls down again into the material pool. > > > > > > > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Zinc release?

by Herby VojÄÃk

Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > >> On 12 Oct 2017, at 15:58, Herby VojÄÃk<herby(a)mailbox.sk> wrote: >> >> There are a few fixes out there for Zinc, not to mention convenience like ZnEntity class>> json:. Don't you consider releasing the new version (as I tried to update it by hand, it is not that easy, it has more components, to load HTTP I had to update Character-Encoding as well, so probably better if bumped as a group)? >> >> Herby > > That's what configurations are for, to track the latest development release in a consistent way. You just do > > ConfigurationOfZincHTTPComponents project bleedingEdge load. > > Provided you loaded a recent configuration. I'm nort sure I want the bleeding edge loaded, albeit for recent configuration, for the production code (thought not mission criticial about lives or millions of $$$). Also I don't know if configurations are updated after each change out there (it must be done by hand I presume). So I was asking if there isn't a time to release another stable one. If not, and I still want not the true bleeding edge, but a "it works for me" snapshot in time, to load specific version of ConfigurationOf... and the issue ... project bleedingEdge load? Will it load only those version that were bleedingEdge at that time? > See the class comment of ConfigurationOfZincHTTPComponents for more info. > > Sven > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] How to recover selections in a fastlist after an update

by Steven Costiou

Hi Ben, sure. This is my browser entry point: adaptationsBrowser | browser | browser := GLMTabulator new. browser row: [ :r | r column: #adaptations; column: #objects; column: #methods ]. browser row: #diff. browser transmit to: #adaptations; andShow: [ :a :adaptations | self adaptations: adaptations in: a ]. ^ browser adaptations: adaptations in: composite | list | list := composite fastList. list title: 'Adaptations'. list display: adaptations. adaptationsList := list. So my problem is that this adaptation list may change overtime. So periodically the #step method is called, the adaptation collection is updated and i also call #update to refresh the browser. However, if an adaptation was selected in the list, then calling #update will reset this selection. Le 2017-10-13 13:33, Ben Coman a Ã©crit : > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 5:53 PM, Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I am using fastlists in a browser inspired from glmexamples, and when i use a stepping and that i update the browser (update method) all selections in lists are lost. >> >> Is there an automatic way to recover the selections or does it have to be handled in my code ? If so, i don't understand how to recover my selection, if i kept the fastlist in a var, doing list selection: myObject does not do anything. >> >> Steven. > Sorry I don't know the answer, I don't know much about this part of Pharo, but I'd like to learn more. Would it be possible for you to attach a minimal code example, so when an answer does come in, I'll have a chance to learn more about fastlist? > > cheers -ben

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Dimitris Chloupis

I am against the very idea of special syntax. Even python uses special syntax as nothing more than syntactic sugar to make the code more readable from the point of view of not everything looking the same. I agree with the concept of everything being an Object. I also dont like the idea that we tend to not have a clear cut border between the IDE and the language/library. Of course I think IDE functionality as much as namespaces is concerned (within the borders of my understanding) is essential. But should be seperate and the IDE act mostly as a visualisation tool and automation tool. My problem , is that the Pharo operates on a global space , so lets say i do what I said above I still dont avoid name collisions. Because MyInstance outside MyModule should diffirent from MyInstance inside MyModule. It could become possible by masking the names from the user. So that there is no conflict between MyModule MyInstance and MyModule2 MyInstance unless you introduce of couse similar to python the optional feature of collapsing the scope. We already have Packages which tie in with Metacello, so I was think about Modules or however we want to call them as a layer between. I am fine with metacello personally. Its the name collisions that only concerns me and not forcing me to use unique names. Of course a module can contain other modules. I know how to do this for my projects , I would manipulate the IDE into displaying Modules as a seperate row in System Browswer , Packages will continue being the the up most container. And for name of a class I would add the name of the Module to the class , if I wanted to keep supporting the existing enviroment , but hack it so it appears to the user as 2 seperate things so for user will see MyModule MyInsance myMessage: but it Would be for the system MyModuleMyInstance myMessage: which would make sense from naming persepctive even to an outsider not using the module system and would not require for him to install the modue library and essentially MyModule MyInstance act as you said via Message not understood as a reference to MyModuleMyInstance . A unary message returning a reference to an instance or class or other object. of course you will have a class like ModuleGenerator to handle the technical details for you Version control , dependencies and other technicallities would be handled normally as usually by Metacello with MyModule pointing also to the correct configuration , baseline, whatever. At least thats my general idea of it. On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 2:16 PM Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Kilon, > > then the discussion is a bit different. As your example points out, the > syntax is already there, but the notion of a module is still open and ties > into the package management. > > I've played a bit with Metacello to have a working "project" concept > synchronized with Metacello, and I could imagine providing module like > objects (the baseline itself?) giving access to more generic names instead > of the internal, prefixed ones. > > One suggestion maybe: what about trying it for yourself with one of your > projects? With a kind of overall class which has the name of the module, > and automatically adding methods to it (or a #doesNotUnderstand: that > handles those) for all the classes in the module, removing from the class > name the prefix? It would allow an experiment, to see how the code looks > like and if it is understandable, or if a special syntax is necessary. > > Thierry > > > 2017-10-13 11:51 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > >> to be more specific what I mean because apparently I may know nothing >> about namespaces , I was talking in terms of Python's module and package >> system >> >> even though python uses special syntax "import" to import a module, a >> source file, the real functionality is actually a method but of an object >> dealing with the handling of modules and packages , packages are basically >> file directories containing mutliple modules >> >> as soon as you do the import the syntax is the usual object syntax >> >> so >> >> Dog.bark() >> >> can be anything >> 1) A class method call, Dog being the class >> 2) A instance method call, Dog being the instance >> 3) or a function call, Dog being the function , which is also an object >> (methods in python are basically function object taking the reference to an >> instance as first argument, hence why the weird syntax of adding self as >> first argument when we define instance method) and Dog is the module >> imported. >> >> of course in case (3) you can collapse the module "name" so you can do >> only bark() if you import via "from Dog import *" which means from module >> Dog import every object. >> But from import is frown upon in the python world because obviously it >> makes it easier to have name collision which is what the module system try >> to avoid in the first place. >> >> So the equivelant of pharo would be >> >> MyModule MyInstance myMessage: >> >> or if you include packages as well >> >> MyPackage MyModule MyInstance myMessage: >> >> which follows pharo syntax and OO design. That's my general idea at least. >> >> Please enlighten me :) >> >> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 12:30 PM Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 11:31 AM Thierry Goubier < >>> thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> 2017-10-13 10:12 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: >>>> >>>>> fair enough you think namespaces are not the right solution, what you >>>>> think is the right solution then ? >>>>> >>>> >>>> I told you. Namespaces are a solution, but they come with issues. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Then I misunderstood you but I am geniouly interested in what those >>> problems are and I think the infromation is something others will find >>> interesting as well. >>> >>> No. In the HPC world, a common held position is that Fortran code is 30% >>>> faster than C++. >>>> >>> >>> Cannot even rememeber the last time a 3d graphics developers mentioned >>> Fortran.I occasional frequent forums and mailing lists plus keeping in >>> contact with Blender developers. >>> >>> I have heard that Fortran can outperform C++ in numeric computation >>> around the percentage you mentioned but first time I heard that its >>> generally faster. >>> >>> Language Benchmark seems to strongly disagree >>> >>> >>> http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=ifc&lang2=gpp >>> >>> of its widely criticized but then what benchmark is not >>> >>> >>>> Remember that part of my job is to write compilers. >>>> >>>> >>> I knew that you write compilers (SmaCC) I did not realise you are a pro >>> and especially on ones that generate highly optimised machine code >>> >>> >>>> I'm also consider a guy to talk to when someone has deep issues with >>>> some of the new features of C++... even if I don't do C++, I can often >>>> reframe what the feature means in the overall scheme of programming >>>> languages. >>>> >>> >>> On other hand I have close to zero experience on compilers >>> . >>> >>> >>>> I find it very interesting. I consider that current compilers are very >>>> good optimising code that is written in a language that obscures the >>>> developper intent in the first place. >>>> >>> >>> I lost you there, you mean compilers for other languages than C++ ? >>> >>> As I told you, I work in a world where performance is paramount and C++ >>>> is strongly criticized for the fact its incidental complexity makes it very >>>> very hard to reach or maintain performance levels (compared to Fortran, >>>> say). >>>> >>>> Thierry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> And I "work" in a world that C++ is the undisputed king , that's 3d >>> graphics , though I must admit I try to stick with Python as much as I can. >>> >>> In any case my point was that if namespaces can be done in a badly >>> design language , should be possible in Pharo and easier. Not ease, just >>> easier. >>> >>> Of course that's just a wild assumption but I hope this thread do not >>> only disaprove my assumption but said a light in the real challanges of >>> namespace implementation >>> >>> >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] How to recover selections in a fastlist after an update

by Ben Coman

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 5:53 PM, Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io> wrote: > Hi, > > I am using fastlists in a browser inspired from glmexamples, and when i > use a stepping and that i update the browser (update method) all selections > in lists are lost. > > Is there an automatic way to recover the selections or does it have to be > handled in my code ? If so, i don't understand how to recover my selection, > if i kept the fastlist in a var, doing list selection: myObject does not do > anything. > > Steven. > Sorry I don't know the answer, I don't know much about this part of Pharo, but I'd like to learn more. Would it be possible for you to attach a minimal code example, so when an answer does come in, I'll have a chance to learn more about fastlist? cheers -ben

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Pillar

by Gour

On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 10:43:27 +0000 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Why exporting to latex, html and markdown is not enough for you ? Well, I usuallyconsider latex/html as more suitable as output formats, while standard markdown is semantically too poor for input format, but I'll test how Pillar's outputs are suitable as Pandoc's inputs. Sincerely, Gour -- It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though faultily, than another's duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous.

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Thierry Goubier

Hi Kilon, then the discussion is a bit different. As your example points out, the syntax is already there, but the notion of a module is still open and ties into the package management. I've played a bit with Metacello to have a working "project" concept synchronized with Metacello, and I could imagine providing module like objects (the baseline itself?) giving access to more generic names instead of the internal, prefixed ones. One suggestion maybe: what about trying it for yourself with one of your projects? With a kind of overall class which has the name of the module, and automatically adding methods to it (or a #doesNotUnderstand: that handles those) for all the classes in the module, removing from the class name the prefix? It would allow an experiment, to see how the code looks like and if it is understandable, or if a special syntax is necessary. Thierry 2017-10-13 11:51 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > to be more specific what I mean because apparently I may know nothing > about namespaces , I was talking in terms of Python's module and package > system > > even though python uses special syntax "import" to import a module, a > source file, the real functionality is actually a method but of an object > dealing with the handling of modules and packages , packages are basically > file directories containing mutliple modules > > as soon as you do the import the syntax is the usual object syntax > > so > > Dog.bark() > > can be anything > 1) A class method call, Dog being the class > 2) A instance method call, Dog being the instance > 3) or a function call, Dog being the function , which is also an object > (methods in python are basically function object taking the reference to an > instance as first argument, hence why the weird syntax of adding self as > first argument when we define instance method) and Dog is the module > imported. > > of course in case (3) you can collapse the module "name" so you can do > only bark() if you import via "from Dog import *" which means from module > Dog import every object. > But from import is frown upon in the python world because obviously it > makes it easier to have name collision which is what the module system try > to avoid in the first place. > > So the equivelant of pharo would be > > MyModule MyInstance myMessage: > > or if you include packages as well > > MyPackage MyModule MyInstance myMessage: > > which follows pharo syntax and OO design. That's my general idea at least. > > Please enlighten me :) > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 12:30 PM Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 11:31 AM Thierry Goubier < >> thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> 2017-10-13 10:12 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: >>> >>>> fair enough you think namespaces are not the right solution, what you >>>> think is the right solution then ? >>>> >>> >>> I told you. Namespaces are a solution, but they come with issues. >>> >>> >> >> Then I misunderstood you but I am geniouly interested in what those >> problems are and I think the infromation is something others will find >> interesting as well. >> >> No. In the HPC world, a common held position is that Fortran code is 30% >>> faster than C++. >>> >> >> Cannot even rememeber the last time a 3d graphics developers mentioned >> Fortran.I occasional frequent forums and mailing lists plus keeping in >> contact with Blender developers. >> >> I have heard that Fortran can outperform C++ in numeric computation >> around the percentage you mentioned but first time I heard that its >> generally faster. >> >> Language Benchmark seems to strongly disagree >> >> http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php? >> lang=ifc&lang2=gpp >> >> of its widely criticized but then what benchmark is not >> >> >>> Remember that part of my job is to write compilers. >>> >>> >> I knew that you write compilers (SmaCC) I did not realise you are a pro >> and especially on ones that generate highly optimised machine code >> >> >>> I'm also consider a guy to talk to when someone has deep issues with >>> some of the new features of C++... even if I don't do C++, I can often >>> reframe what the feature means in the overall scheme of programming >>> languages. >>> >> >> On other hand I have close to zero experience on compilers >> . >> >> >>> I find it very interesting. I consider that current compilers are very >>> good optimising code that is written in a language that obscures the >>> developper intent in the first place. >>> >> >> I lost you there, you mean compilers for other languages than C++ ? >> >> As I told you, I work in a world where performance is paramount and C++ >>> is strongly criticized for the fact its incidental complexity makes it very >>> very hard to reach or maintain performance levels (compared to Fortran, >>> say). >>> >>> Thierry >>> >>> >> >> And I "work" in a world that C++ is the undisputed king , that's 3d >> graphics , though I must admit I try to stick with Python as much as I can. >> >> In any case my point was that if namespaces can be done in a badly design >> language , should be possible in Pharo and easier. Not ease, just easier. >> >> Of course that's just a wild assumption but I hope this thread do not >> only disaprove my assumption but said a light in the real challanges of >> namespace implementation >> >>

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

by Dimitris Chloupis

Thanks for the insight Andrew , I heard of VisualAge Smalltalk but not of C++ and Java, very interesting :) On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:44 PM Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > VA (VisualAge) for C++ and for Java were two IBM products, the latter > being the predecessor to Eclipse. They were both available on OS/2 and > Windows NT variants (2000 mainly), and the C++ version on AIX. Whichever > platform the C++ version was run on, you could target any supported runtime > platform. They were all (along with VisualAge Smalltalk, now maintained and > sold by Instantiations and currently at version 9.0, and VisualAge > Generator - a Cobol version) written in IBM Smalltalk. > > I still use VA C++, Java, and occasionally VA Smalltalk, albeit the latter > at v. 6.02, in a VM running OS/2 (well, Ecomstation, but it's the same as > OS/2 4.5, just updated for more recent hardware - interestingly Arca Noae > released a version 5.0, the first official (i.e. called OS/2 version since > 2004, in June of this year). > > I use them for prototyping and quickly creating cross-VM client/server > apps that allow me to generate virtual network traffic without using tons > of memory for each VM (much of what I do involves monitoring network > protocols such as BGP, and without traffic to exercise the virtualized > aggregated service routers, I can't demonstrate the code without carrying 6 > 75lb servers on my back). > > I can run Lotus Domino plus 10-12 server apps written in VA C++ in a VM > with one or two vCPU's and 256MB RAM. On the client, I can run a couple > dozen Java clients, connecting either to the C++ servers or Domino, in > 128MB. I put a screenshot of the CPP and Java versions below. > > For Smalltalk code, Pharo is better than VA, certainly better than the > 6.02 version, but for C++ or Java, as long as you don't mind prototyping in > an old Java version (lacking the syntactic parmesan, mainly), they're still > better than anything else. Both incrementally compile/precompile in-memory > on save the way ST does, but that's fairly rare in C++. Both have ways of > writing arbitrary test code similar to a playground, which is also rare in > either language. Both also have data access libraries that are far faster > and easier to use than JPA, never mind CMP. VA Java also includes an > ancient version of WebSphere for J2EE. > > CORBA (Common Object Request Broker Architecture) is a complex way of > exchanging objects/data between languages. I've seen interviewers who > are/were developers actually shake if I mention it. However both the C++ > and Java versions handled most of the details without any fuss. > > All the build/deploy tooling was in the environment. With the app I > mentioned, lacking those environments it's maybe not *impossible*, but > likely at least close to 'infinitely improbable' to get the thing built > properly, never mind actually change the code and configs. The junior > developer from that project is a friend of mine's little brother, he's > *still* at the company that paid to have it built, and it's now 15 years > later, just so it will keep running. Ironically he was fresh out of school > at the time and basically worked as a gopher, he didn't write or even debug > a line of code. After we finished the project I taught him how to > modify/build it using those tools, and they're still the only thing he can > use. > > cheers > Andrew > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > *Date*: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 07:26:13 +0000 > *Subject*: Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on" > *To*: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > <Any%20question%20about%20pharo%20is%20welcome%20%3cpharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org%3e> > > > Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > > > *From*: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com > <Dimitris%20Chloupis%20%3ckilon.alios(a)gmail.com%3e>> > What is a VA Java ? and a VA C++ ? > > Call me an idiot or insane but I am in favor of combiding languages, > though I only have heard of COBRA never used it. > > I am a lawyer by profession, I know fellow lawyers still using DOS and > QBasic databases and yes under windows ...... sadly very common for > businesses here. Ah the pleasures of technology but nothing comes close to > the pleasure of rejecting it. > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 12:49 AM Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I know about personalization being a lot of work, particularly with > Eclipse. I copied the text out of the âsummaryâ page in About Eclipse into > Kate, and it was 1233 lines long, lol. > > > > I was one of two team leads on what was probably the most complex > application Iâve worked on, using VA Java and VA C++ with CORBA to exchange > objects (the need to combine both was due to legacy issues). Siemens now > owns the application, which was successful enough to bankrupt its closest > competitor, but the binary jars in the latest version are still dated 2002, > and every addition has been made via .the WS* API we included, which if I > remember correctly, uses version 1.x of WebSphere. Iâm a bit surprised it > still runs at all tbh, but its security must be horrible by now. > > > > Eclipseâs only saving grace is EMF/CDO, and a few projects built on them, > IMHO. > > > > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for > Windows 10 > > > > *From: *Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > *Sent: *Thursday, October 12, 2017 2:05 PM > *To: *Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > *Subject: *Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on" > > > > It's a mentality issue, modern programming languages provide the material > necessary to create innovative environments but their communities just > simply does not care. A language designer may introduce a feature in a > language that is super useful. Still people may not use it. > > > > And let's face it even with Pharo nothing beats a personalized > environment, of course personalisation is a lot of work. Hence why people > avoid it. > > > > Essentially boiling down to cooking your own food instead of getting it > from a shop. When you begin to learn how to cook , its kinda sucks, but the > more you cook the better it tastes. Of course it takes time to get there > and hence why so few people cook. > > > > Eclispe , which I will disagree with your that is not the worst IDE, > started as a smalltalk IDE and then it got Eclipsed. I am sure those people > had a "build on" environment , still it got messy. We can blame porting to > Java, but can we really blame Java for the mess that is called > "Eclipse".... ehhhh.... nope. > > > > I once saw a youtube video about a musician using windows sounds (the > standard sounds we all know of) to make a very nice music piece. He did > all that using multiple instances of windows media player. Just pause > reading think about this for a minute. That's the real essence of creativity > > > > Use something very limited and come up with something amazing. The > software industry is not about creativity for the most part. On the other > hand I that work with 3d its amazing how fast super cool new technologies > pop around like mushrooms. Every year we have massive improvements in > libraries and tools. But the coding for 3d graphics is all about creativity > , artists are not very forgiving for ugly GUI, limited features and > innovation stagnation. Artists want to be inspired by the tools they use. > But then that's the creativity realm. Creativity pays the bills in this > case, lack of it , game is not fun, rendering or animation is not fun, you > can lose millions. > > > > Of course in the creativity realm , there is too much innovation and > unless you keep up you are kicked out the door, yesterday. Which brings > down to the problem of complexity and how you deal with it. And I don't > mean about bad complexity , aka web dev, I am talking about good > complexity. Features you cannot ignore because other will use before you > and you are left behind etc. > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 7:13 PM Peter Fisk <peter.fisk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Thanks for posting this. > > > > It is one of the best descriptions of the state of the software industry > that I have seen. > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > https://medium.com/@dasein42/building-with-versus-building-on-c51aa3034c71 > > > > This is an article not *specifically* about Pharo, rather on the state of the industry > in general and how it got that way, but positing Pharo as a way to learn > building-*on* rather than building-*with*, where in the latter case on > every project you start at essentially the same place. > > > > As a result it does put in front of people a fair amount of info on Pharo, > and challenges them to try it. > > > > cheers > > Andrew Glynn > > > > > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Pillar (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Dimitris Chloupis

Why exporting to latex, html and markdown is not enough for you ? On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:05 PM Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:18:54 +0000 > Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Well there is a move towards Pillar for class and method commands so > > who knows maybe we will have that soon enough ;) > > Let me say that I'm very happy seeing that Pillar is moving forward (e.g. > addition of support for footnotes) as well as plan for the future (*.epub > support) since I'm considering whether it could serve as single-source > markup > for all of one's writings? > > After migrating from Python-powered static-site-generator (to Hugo) and rst > markup I was considering to use AsciiDoc(tor) markup for all my content, > but, > so far, due to using Emacsm settled to use org-mode instead. Haven't tried > with > slides (yet), but there is Pandoc support for it. > > Therefore, I'd rather see Pillar support in Pandoc which would buy us even > more > import/export capabilities for free instead of focusing on single formats > like > *.odt, *.epub etc. > > Pillar with 1st class support in Pandoc would, imho, improve status of > Pharo > itself making it along with Pillar exceelent tool for development as well > as > for all writing needs - articles, books, documentation, > slide-presentations. > > But it would be nice to make it more transparent where/how can one submit > feature request for Pillar? > > Fogbugs issue trakcer is certainly not the ideal place these days... > > > Sincerely, > Gour > > -- > Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities > he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no > one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment. > > > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

by Andrew Glynn

VA (VisualAge) for C++ and for Java were two IBM products, the latter being the predecessor to Eclipse.Â Â They were both available on OS/2 and Windows NT variants (2000 mainly), and the C++ version on AIX.Â Â Whichever platform the C++ version was run on, you could target any supported runtime platform.Â Â They were all (along with VisualAge Smalltalk, now maintained and sold by Instantiations and currently at version 9.0, and VisualAge Generator - a Cobol version) written in IBM Smalltalk. I still use VA C++, Java, and occasionally VA Smalltalk, albeit the latter at v. 6.02, in a VM running OS/2 (well, Ecomstation, but it's the same as OS/2 4.5, just updated for more recent hardware - interestingly Arca Noae released a version 5.0, the first official (i.e. called OS/2 version since 2004, in June of this year). Â I use them for prototyping and quickly creating cross-VM client/server apps that allow me to generate virtual network traffic without using tons of memory for each VM (much of what I do involves monitoring network protocols such as BGP, and without traffic to exercise the virtualized aggregated service routers, I can't demonstrate the code without carrying 6 75lb servers on my back). Â I can run Lotus Domino plus 10-12 server apps written in VA C++ in a VM with one or two vCPU's and 256MB RAM.Â Â On the client, I can run a couple dozen Java clients, connecting either to the C++ servers or Domino, in 128MB.Â Â I put a screenshot of the CPP and Java versions below. For Smalltalk code, Pharo is better than VA, certainly better than the 6.02 version, but for C++ or Java, as long as you don't mind prototyping in an old Java version (lacking the syntactic parmesan, mainly), they're still better than anything else. Both incrementally compile/precompile in-memory on save the way ST does, but that's fairly rare in C++.Â Â Both have ways of writing arbitrary test code similar to a playground, which is also rare in either language. Both also have data access libraries that are far faster and easier to use than JPA, never mind CMP.Â Â VA Java also includes an ancient version of WebSphere for J2EE. CORBAÂ (Common Object Request Broker Architecture) is a complex way of exchanging objects/data between languages.Â Â I've seen interviewers who are/were developers actually shake if I mention it.Â Â However both the C++ and Java versions handled most of the details without any fuss.Â Â Â All the build/deploy tooling was in the environment. With the app I mentioned, lacking those environments it's maybe not impossible, but likely at least close to 'infinitely improbable' to get the thing built properly, never mind actually change the code and configs.Â Â The junior developer from that project is a friend of mine's little brother, he's still at the company that paid to have it built, and it's now 15 years later, just so it will keep running. Ironically he was fresh out of school at the time and basically worked as a gopher, he didn't write or even debug a line of code.Â Â After we finished the project I taught him how to modify/build it using those tools, and they're still the only thing he can use.Â Â cheersAndrew Â -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 07:26:13 +0000Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org>Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org>From: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon. alios(a)gmail.com>What is a VA Java ? and a VA C++ ?Â Call me an idiot or insane but I am in favor of combiding languages, though I only have heard of COBRA never used it.Â I am a lawyer by profession, I know fellow lawyers still using DOS and QBasic databases and yes under windows ...... sadly very common for businesses here. Ah the pleasures of technology but nothing comes close to the pleasure of rejecting it.Â On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 12:49 AM Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I know about personalization being a lot of work, particularly with > Eclipse.Â I copied the text out of the âsummaryâ page in About > Eclipse into Kate, and it was 1233 lines long, lol.Â Â > Â > I was one of two team leads on what was probably the most complex > application Iâve worked on, using VA Java and VA C++ with CORBA to > exchange objects (the need to combine both was due to legacy > issues).Â Siemens now owns the application, which was successful > enough to bankrupt its closest competitor, but the binary jars in the > latest version are still dated 2002, and every addition has been made > via .the WS* API we included, which if I remember correctly, uses > version 1.x of WebSphere.Â Iâm a bit surprised it still runs at all > tbh, but its security must be horrible by now. > Â > Eclipseâs only saving grace is EMF/CDO, and a few projects built on > them, IMHO. > Â > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > Â > From: Dimitris Chloupis > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 2:05 PM > To: Any question about pharo is welcome > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"Â > It's a mentality issue, modern programming languages provide the > material necessary to create innovative environments but their > communities just simply does not care. A language designer may > introduce a feature in a language that is super useful. Still people > may not use it.Â > Â > And let's face it even with Pharo nothing beats a personalized > environment, of course personalisation is a lot of work. Hence why > people avoid it.Â Â > Â > Essentially boiling down to cooking your own food instead of getting > it from a shop. When you begin to learn how to cook , its kinda > sucks, but the more you cook the better it tastes. Of course it takes > time to get there and hence why so few people cook.Â > Â > Eclispe , which I will disagree with your that is not the worst IDE, > started as a smalltalk IDE and then it got Eclipsed. I am sure those > people had a "build on" environment , still it got messy. We can > blame porting to Java, but can we really blame Java for the mess that > is called "Eclipse".... ehhhh.... nope.Â > Â > I once saw a youtube video about a musician using windows sounds (the > standard sounds we all know of) to makeÂ a very nice music piece. He > did all that using multiple instances of windows media player. Just > pause reading think about this for a minute. That's the real essence > of creativity > Â > Use something very limited and come up with something amazing. The > software industry is not about creativity for the most part. On the > other hand I that work with 3d its amazing how fast super cool new > technologies pop around like mushrooms. Every year we have massive > improvements in libraries and tools. But the coding for 3d graphics > is all about creativity , artists are not very forgiving for ugly > GUI, limited features and innovation stagnation. Artists want to be > inspired by the tools they use. But then that's the creativity realm. > Creativity pays the bills in this case, lack of it , game is not fun, > rendering or animation is not fun, you can lose millions.Â > Â > Of course in the creativity realm , there is too much innovation and > unless you keep up you are kicked out the door, yesterday. Which > brings down to the problem of complexity and how you deal with it. > And I don't mean about bad complexity , aka web dev, I am talking > about good complexity. Features you cannot ignore because other will > use before you and you are left behind etc.Â > Â > Â > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 7:13 PM Peter Fisk <peter.fisk(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > Thanks for posting this. > Â > It is one of the best descriptions of the state of the software > industry that I have seen. > Â > Â > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > https://medium.com/@dasein42/building-with-versus-building-on-c51aa30 > 34c71Â This is an article not specifically about Pharo, rather on the > state of the industry > in general and how it got that way, but positing Pharo as a way to > learn > building-on rather than building-with, where in the latter case on > every project you start at essentially the same place.Â Â As a result > it does put in front of people a fair amount of info on Pharo, and > challenges them to try it. > Â cheersAndrew Glynn > Â > Â

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Pillar (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Cyril Ferlicot

On ven. 13 oct. 2017 at 12:05, Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:18:54 +0000 > Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Well there is a move towards Pillar for class and method commands so > > who knows maybe we will have that soon enough ;) > > Let me say that I'm very happy seeing that Pillar is moving forward (e.g. > addition of support for footnotes) as well as plan for the future (*.epub > support) since I'm considering whether it could serve as single-source > markup > for all of one's writings? > > After migrating from Python-powered static-site-generator (to Hugo) and rst > markup I was considering to use AsciiDoc(tor) markup for all my content, > but, > so far, due to using Emacsm settled to use org-mode instead. Haven't tried > with > slides (yet), but there is Pandoc support for it. > > Therefore, I'd rather see Pillar support in Pandoc which would buy us even > more > import/export capabilities for free instead of focusing on single formats > like > *.odt, *.epub etc. > > Pillar with 1st class support in Pandoc would, imho, improve status of > Pharo > itself making it along with Pillar exceelent tool for development as well > as > for all writing needs - articles, books, documentation, > slide-presentations. > > But it would be nice to make it more transparent where/how can one submit > feature request for Pillar? Hi, I don't have much time so, fast answer: https://github.com/pillar-markup/pillar/issues > > Fogbugs issue trakcer is certainly not the ideal place these days... > > > Sincerely, > Gour > > -- > Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities > he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no > one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment. > > > > -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr http://www.synectique.eu 2 rue Jacques PrÃ©vert 01, 59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France

Oct. 13, 2017

Pillar (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Gour

On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:18:54 +0000 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Well there is a move towards Pillar for class and method commands so > who knows maybe we will have that soon enough ;) Let me say that I'm very happy seeing that Pillar is moving forward (e.g. addition of support for footnotes) as well as plan for the future (*.epub support) since I'm considering whether it could serve as single-source markup for all of one's writings? After migrating from Python-powered static-site-generator (to Hugo) and rst markup I was considering to use AsciiDoc(tor) markup for all my content, but, so far, due to using Emacsm settled to use org-mode instead. Haven't tried with slides (yet), but there is Pandoc support for it. Therefore, I'd rather see Pillar support in Pandoc which would buy us even more import/export capabilities for free instead of focusing on single formats like *.odt, *.epub etc. Pillar with 1st class support in Pandoc would, imho, improve status of Pharo itself making it along with Pillar exceelent tool for development as well as for all writing needs - articles, books, documentation, slide-presentations. But it would be nice to make it more transparent where/how can one submit feature request for Pillar? Fogbugs issue trakcer is certainly not the ideal place these days... Sincerely, Gour -- Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment.

Oct. 13, 2017

How to recover selections in a fastlist after an update

by Steven Costiou

Hi, I am using fastlists in a browser inspired from glmexamples, and when i use a stepping and that i update the browser (update method) all selections in lists are lost. Is there an automatic way to recover the selections or does it have to be handled in my code ? If so, i don't understand how to recover my selection, if i kept the fastlist in a var, doing list selection: myObject does not do anything. Steven.

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Dimitris Chloupis

to be more specific what I mean because apparently I may know nothing about namespaces , I was talking in terms of Python's module and package system even though python uses special syntax "import" to import a module, a source file, the real functionality is actually a method but of an object dealing with the handling of modules and packages , packages are basically file directories containing mutliple modules as soon as you do the import the syntax is the usual object syntax so Dog.bark() can be anything 1) A class method call, Dog being the class 2) A instance method call, Dog being the instance 3) or a function call, Dog being the function , which is also an object (methods in python are basically function object taking the reference to an instance as first argument, hence why the weird syntax of adding self as first argument when we define instance method) and Dog is the module imported. of course in case (3) you can collapse the module "name" so you can do only bark() if you import via "from Dog import *" which means from module Dog import every object. But from import is frown upon in the python world because obviously it makes it easier to have name collision which is what the module system try to avoid in the first place. So the equivelant of pharo would be MyModule MyInstance myMessage: or if you include packages as well MyPackage MyModule MyInstance myMessage: which follows pharo syntax and OO design. That's my general idea at least. Please enlighten me :) On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 12:30 PM Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 11:31 AM Thierry Goubier < > thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> 2017-10-13 10:12 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: >> >>> fair enough you think namespaces are not the right solution, what you >>> think is the right solution then ? >>> >> >> I told you. Namespaces are a solution, but they come with issues. >> >> > > Then I misunderstood you but I am geniouly interested in what those > problems are and I think the infromation is something others will find > interesting as well. > > No. In the HPC world, a common held position is that Fortran code is 30% >> faster than C++. >> > > Cannot even rememeber the last time a 3d graphics developers mentioned > Fortran.I occasional frequent forums and mailing lists plus keeping in > contact with Blender developers. > > I have heard that Fortran can outperform C++ in numeric computation around > the percentage you mentioned but first time I heard that its generally > faster. > > Language Benchmark seems to strongly disagree > > http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=ifc&lang2=gpp > > of its widely criticized but then what benchmark is not > > >> Remember that part of my job is to write compilers. >> >> > I knew that you write compilers (SmaCC) I did not realise you are a pro > and especially on ones that generate highly optimised machine code > > >> I'm also consider a guy to talk to when someone has deep issues with some >> of the new features of C++... even if I don't do C++, I can often reframe >> what the feature means in the overall scheme of programming languages. >> > > On other hand I have close to zero experience on compilers > . > > >> I find it very interesting. I consider that current compilers are very >> good optimising code that is written in a language that obscures the >> developper intent in the first place. >> > > I lost you there, you mean compilers for other languages than C++ ? > > As I told you, I work in a world where performance is paramount and C++ is >> strongly criticized for the fact its incidental complexity makes it very >> very hard to reach or maintain performance levels (compared to Fortran, >> say). >> >> Thierry >> >> > > And I "work" in a world that C++ is the undisputed king , that's 3d > graphics , though I must admit I try to stick with Python as much as I can. > > In any case my point was that if namespaces can be done in a badly design > language , should be possible in Pharo and easier. Not ease, just easier. > > Of course that's just a wild assumption but I hope this thread do not only > disaprove my assumption but said a light in the real challanges of > namespace implementation > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Dimitris Chloupis

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 11:31 AM Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2017-10-13 10:12 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > >> fair enough you think namespaces are not the right solution, what you >> think is the right solution then ? >> > > I told you. Namespaces are a solution, but they come with issues. > > Then I misunderstood you but I am geniouly interested in what those problems are and I think the infromation is something others will find interesting as well. No. In the HPC world, a common held position is that Fortran code is 30% > faster than C++. > Cannot even rememeber the last time a 3d graphics developers mentioned Fortran.I occasional frequent forums and mailing lists plus keeping in contact with Blender developers. I have heard that Fortran can outperform C++ in numeric computation around the percentage you mentioned but first time I heard that its generally faster. Language Benchmark seems to strongly disagree http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=ifc&lang2=gpp of its widely criticized but then what benchmark is not > Remember that part of my job is to write compilers. > > I knew that you write compilers (SmaCC) I did not realise you are a pro and especially on ones that generate highly optimised machine code > I'm also consider a guy to talk to when someone has deep issues with some > of the new features of C++... even if I don't do C++, I can often reframe > what the feature means in the overall scheme of programming languages. > On other hand I have close to zero experience on compilers . > I find it very interesting. I consider that current compilers are very > good optimising code that is written in a language that obscures the > developper intent in the first place. > I lost you there, you mean compilers for other languages than C++ ? As I told you, I work in a world where performance is paramount and C++ is > strongly criticized for the fact its incidental complexity makes it very > very hard to reach or maintain performance levels (compared to Fortran, > say). > > Thierry > > And I "work" in a world that C++ is the undisputed king , that's 3d graphics , though I must admit I try to stick with Python as much as I can. In any case my point was that if namespaces can be done in a badly design language , should be possible in Pharo and easier. Not ease, just easier. Of course that's just a wild assumption but I hope this thread do not only disaprove my assumption but said a light in the real challanges of namespace implementation

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Dimitris Chloupis

"Let's start with the misconception that namespaces are about modularisation Stephan " Well I can only for speak for Python because is where I used namespaces the most and the language I am most experienced with. Namespaces in python are merely objects that come with a collection of method speciallised in the handling of source code files , individuals and in collection with all the objects contained in them , cause everything in python apart from the core synstax are object. Last time I checked, objects even in Pharo are abour modularistation so it stands to reason that at least in Python namespaces are too. Maybe your refer to something else ?

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Norbert Hartl

> Am 13.10.2017 um 10:24 schrieb stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl>: > > On 13-10-17 09:55, Thierry Goubier wrote: >> Because namespaces, by essence, come with serious issues. I won't take >> someone seriously on namespaces until he can cite those faithfully. > > Let's start with the misconception that namespaces are about modularisation > +1 Norbert

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Thierry Goubier

2017-10-13 10:12 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > fair enough you think namespaces are not the right solution, what you > think is the right solution then ? > I told you. Namespaces are a solution, but they come with issues. > > As much I hate C++ , no I will have to disagree with your there, bad > language design sure, but many of the "bad design" choices they make are > based on the fact that this is a pure performance orientated language. Oh > and we still wait for the real C++ alternative. Rust people claim they are > close, D people claim they are close, everyone claims its very close, but > still no alternative. Well I dont count C becaue its not OO, even if you > claim C++ an abomination of OOP. I can guarantee that the dude that will > come up with a language as fast as C++ and much better design he is going > to make a fortune. In the mean time , those that have to use C++ will > continue to use C++ and wait for the extemely remote competition to catch > up. In the mean time C++ is the undisputed king in its speciality. > No. In the HPC world, a common held position is that Fortran code is 30% faster than C++. Remember that part of my job is to write compilers. I'm also consider a guy to talk to when someone has deep issues with some of the new features of C++... even if I don't do C++, I can often reframe what the feature means in the overall scheme of programming languages. > > Unfortunately coming up with a top performance language is a lot more than > language design, live coding and OOP. Took ages for C and C++ to get to the > level of optimisation they are nowdays. That's no easy feat even if you or > I dont find interesting. > I find it very interesting. I consider that current compilers are very good optimising code that is written in a language that obscures the developper intent in the first place. > > So yes the modules that C++ will come up with, will be as ugly as hell, > templates that suppose to be there as an alternative to dynamic typing etc > are ugly as hell, but I dont see much protest in getting them removed. And > there cases you cannot even use these "improvements" because ... well > performance issues. While other languages worry how many times slower they > are compared to C++, C++ worries about how much percentage of performance > it loses with each added feature. C++ exits in a diffirent universe than > the one that Smalltalk, Python, Ruby etc exist on and is a very lonely one. > As I told you, I work in a world where performance is paramount and C++ is strongly criticized for the fact its incidental complexity makes it very very hard to reach or maintain performance levels (compared to Fortran, say). Thierry > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 10:55 AM Thierry Goubier < > thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Kilon, >> >> disclaimer: I've used Parcplace Smalltlk without namespaces, then >> VisualWorks with namespaces. >> >> 2017-10-13 9:08 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: >> >>> Personally I dont get it, we find the path to bootstrap the pharo image >>> clear and we cannot see the path to namespaces ? >>> >> >> Because namespaces, by essence, come with serious issues. I won't take >> someone seriously on namespaces until he can cite those faithfully. >> >> >>> >>> it makes zero sense to me >>> >>> Plus what you say, countless and countless of implementation of >>> namespaces out there. And again what you say about perfection. >>> >>> If C++ can improve, If C++ can dream of namespaces planning the >>> introduction of modules(in future version) in replacement (not removal) of >>> his awful header file format.... I think we got the excuse to be confident >>> we can come up with something decent. >>> >> >> C++ is about adding incidental complexity to the development process, >> i.e. how to make something complex where it could be done in a simpler way. >> >> So I'd be very wary of any innovation coming from that direction. >> >> >>> >>> We develop a freaking IDE for crying out loud. >>> >>> No it wont be a walk in the park, no it wont get done in one or next >>> version, and no it cannot be an individual our outside effort. But we have >>> the community super qualified to do it. >>> >> >> And qualified enough maybe to also see it doesn't make that much of sense. >> >> Please remember that the design of a programming language consists not >> just in a laundry list of features, but also in making judicious choices of >> what to *omit* and, more importantly, in establishing design principles >> that are easy to understand [Steele, 2003] >> >> Thierry >> >> >>> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:51 AM Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 8:52 PM, Sean P. DeNigris < >>>> sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> horrido wrote >>>>> > Having separate namespaces would be really good. >>>>> > VisualWorks has them. Why not Pharo? >>>>> >>>>> I can't remember ever hearing disagreement on this subject. It seems >>>>> the >>>>> only questions have been: 1) how to do them *right*, >>>> >>>> >>>> The default position would be leveraging someone else's experience, so >>>> this begs the question, what is wrong in namespace implementations in VW, >>>> Gemstone, Squeak (as our immediate neighbours, then plus Dolphin, >>>> SmalltalkX, other languages) >>>> Are there been any research papers around comparing these? >>>> >>>> I found the "Pharo on Gemstone VM" talk impressive. The "develop on >>>> Pharo deploy on Gemstone" philosophy seems like a nice synergy for Pharo's >>>> commercial future. So a naive approach would be to do namespaces just like >>>> Gemstone. Maybe its not the best, but would it be "good enough" -- >>>> perfection being the enemy of done and all that jazz. >>>> >>>> cheers -ben >>>> >>>> >>>>> and 2) where they fall on the endless prioritized todo list >>>>> >>>>

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by stephan

On 13-10-17 09:55, Thierry Goubier wrote: > Because namespaces, by essence, come with serious issues. I won't take > someone seriously on namespaces until he can cite those faithfully. Let's start with the misconception that namespaces are about modularisation Stephan

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Dimitris Chloupis

fair enough you think namespaces are not the right solution, what you think is the right solution then ? As much I hate C++ , no I will have to disagree with your there, bad language design sure, but many of the "bad design" choices they make are based on the fact that this is a pure performance orientated language. Oh and we still wait for the real C++ alternative. Rust people claim they are close, D people claim they are close, everyone claims its very close, but still no alternative. Well I dont count C becaue its not OO, even if you claim C++ an abomination of OOP. I can guarantee that the dude that will come up with a language as fast as C++ and much better design he is going to make a fortune. In the mean time , those that have to use C++ will continue to use C++ and wait for the extemely remote competition to catch up. In the mean time C++ is the undisputed king in its speciality. Unfortunately coming up with a top performance language is a lot more than language design, live coding and OOP. Took ages for C and C++ to get to the level of optimisation they are nowdays. That's no easy feat even if you or I dont find interesting. So yes the modules that C++ will come up with, will be as ugly as hell, templates that suppose to be there as an alternative to dynamic typing etc are ugly as hell, but I dont see much protest in getting them removed. And there cases you cannot even use these "improvements" because ... well performance issues. While other languages worry how many times slower they are compared to C++, C++ worries about how much percentage of performance it loses with each added feature. C++ exits in a diffirent universe than the one that Smalltalk, Python, Ruby etc exist on and is a very lonely one. On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 10:55 AM Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Kilon, > > disclaimer: I've used Parcplace Smalltlk without namespaces, then > VisualWorks with namespaces. > > 2017-10-13 9:08 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > >> Personally I dont get it, we find the path to bootstrap the pharo image >> clear and we cannot see the path to namespaces ? >> > > Because namespaces, by essence, come with serious issues. I won't take > someone seriously on namespaces until he can cite those faithfully. > > >> >> it makes zero sense to me >> >> Plus what you say, countless and countless of implementation of >> namespaces out there. And again what you say about perfection. >> >> If C++ can improve, If C++ can dream of namespaces planning the >> introduction of modules(in future version) in replacement (not removal) of >> his awful header file format.... I think we got the excuse to be confident >> we can come up with something decent. >> > > C++ is about adding incidental complexity to the development process, i.e. > how to make something complex where it could be done in a simpler way. > > So I'd be very wary of any innovation coming from that direction. > > >> >> We develop a freaking IDE for crying out loud. >> >> No it wont be a walk in the park, no it wont get done in one or next >> version, and no it cannot be an individual our outside effort. But we have >> the community super qualified to do it. >> > > And qualified enough maybe to also see it doesn't make that much of sense. > > Please remember that the design of a programming language consists not > just in a laundry list of features, but also in making judicious choices of > what to *omit* and, more importantly, in establishing design principles > that are easy to understand [Steele, 2003] > > Thierry > > >> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:51 AM Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 8:52 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> horrido wrote >>>> > Having separate namespaces would be really good. >>>> > VisualWorks has them. Why not Pharo? >>>> >>>> I can't remember ever hearing disagreement on this subject. It seems the >>>> only questions have been: 1) how to do them *right*, >>> >>> >>> The default position would be leveraging someone else's experience, so >>> this begs the question, what is wrong in namespace implementations in VW, >>> Gemstone, Squeak (as our immediate neighbours, then plus Dolphin, >>> SmalltalkX, other languages) >>> Are there been any research papers around comparing these? >>> >>> I found the "Pharo on Gemstone VM" talk impressive. The "develop on >>> Pharo deploy on Gemstone" philosophy seems like a nice synergy for Pharo's >>> commercial future. So a naive approach would be to do namespaces just like >>> Gemstone. Maybe its not the best, but would it be "good enough" -- >>> perfection being the enemy of done and all that jazz. >>> >>> cheers -ben >>> >>> >>>> and 2) where they fall on the endless prioritized todo list >>>> >>>

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Christophe Demarey

Hi Ben, > Le 13 oct. 2017 Ã 06:20, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> a Ã©crit : > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 3:43 PM, Christophe Demarey <christophe.demarey(a)inria.fr <mailto:christophe.demarey@inria.fr>> wrote: > Hi Vitor, > >> Le 11 oct. 2017 Ã 13:44, Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com <mailto:vitormcruz@gmail.com>> a Ã©crit : >> >> Hi Christophe, >> >> Yes, but: >> 1- I canât execute it if I donât have administrative rights >> > > ok. That the point I missed. > I think I will add a zip file with PharoLauncher for windows for user like you not having admin rights. > > Might this be a "portable" app, where downloaded images and VMs are stored next to the PharoLancher application, configured by a startup-setting file? > > > Alternatively... > searching around I found this... > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/18990418/nsis-require-admin-permission <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/18990418/nsis-require-admin-permission> > https://github.com/NSIS-Dev/Documentation/blob/master/Reference/RequestExec… <https://github.com/NSIS-Dev/Documentation/blob/master/Reference/RequestExec…> Good catch. probably by using RequestExecutionLevel = highest should solve the problem. > Also, when PharoLauncher is installed by an administrator and later used by a standard user, I guess there may be problems with Pharo needing to write changes to a restricted location?? Maybe that can be dealt with by... when a new user runs PharoLauncher from the start menu, copy it to their user folder $LocalAppdata\Programs\PharoLauncher > and run PharoLauncher from there where they have privilege to write? > https://stackoverflow.com/questions/31641818/install-application-files-to-s… <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/31641818/install-application-files-to-s…> Yes, you could have problems but I do not think that adding more complexity to the installer is the way to go. I would rather prefer, in preference order: 1/ Pharo Launcher do not need to write data, 2/ if files need to be written, they should go to a Pharo data folder (e.g. $LocalAppdata\Programs\PharoLauncher) or to the user apps setting folder. What I would like is that a Pharo image writes data where it should > > btw, where are the NSIS source files accessible? https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-build-scripts/tree/master/windows-in… > Can they be dropped in the PharoLauncher git repo? No because they are shared and used with other Pharo build scripts. Thanks for the information. Cheers, Christophe

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Thierry Goubier

Hi Kilon, disclaimer: I've used Parcplace Smalltlk without namespaces, then VisualWorks with namespaces. 2017-10-13 9:08 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > Personally I dont get it, we find the path to bootstrap the pharo image > clear and we cannot see the path to namespaces ? > Because namespaces, by essence, come with serious issues. I won't take someone seriously on namespaces until he can cite those faithfully. > > it makes zero sense to me > > Plus what you say, countless and countless of implementation of namespaces > out there. And again what you say about perfection. > > If C++ can improve, If C++ can dream of namespaces planning the > introduction of modules(in future version) in replacement (not removal) of > his awful header file format.... I think we got the excuse to be confident > we can come up with something decent. > C++ is about adding incidental complexity to the development process, i.e. how to make something complex where it could be done in a simpler way. So I'd be very wary of any innovation coming from that direction. > > We develop a freaking IDE for crying out loud. > > No it wont be a walk in the park, no it wont get done in one or next > version, and no it cannot be an individual our outside effort. But we have > the community super qualified to do it. > And qualified enough maybe to also see it doesn't make that much of sense. Please remember that the design of a programming language consists not just in a laundry list of features, but also in making judicious choices of what to *omit* and, more importantly, in establishing design principles that are easy to understand [Steele, 2003] Thierry > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:51 AM Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > >> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 8:52 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> >> wrote: >> >>> horrido wrote >>> > Having separate namespaces would be really good. >>> > VisualWorks has them. Why not Pharo? >>> >>> I can't remember ever hearing disagreement on this subject. It seems the >>> only questions have been: 1) how to do them *right*, >> >> >> The default position would be leveraging someone else's experience, so >> this begs the question, what is wrong in namespace implementations in VW, >> Gemstone, Squeak (as our immediate neighbours, then plus Dolphin, >> SmalltalkX, other languages) >> Are there been any research papers around comparing these? >> >> I found the "Pharo on Gemstone VM" talk impressive. The "develop on >> Pharo deploy on Gemstone" philosophy seems like a nice synergy for Pharo's >> commercial future. So a naive approach would be to do namespaces just like >> Gemstone. Maybe its not the best, but would it be "good enough" -- >> perfection being the enemy of done and all that jazz. >> >> cheers -ben >> >> >>> and 2) where they fall on the endless prioritized todo list >>> >>

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

by Thierry Goubier

Hi Andrew, Stephane, thanks for the read. It was interesting, albeit a bit confusing at times. I do like your evaluation of the thesis. 2017-10-12 23:10 GMT+02:00 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com>: > Thanks Andrew I read it fast and I will reread it. It is really > interesting to me because I never took the time to understand "worse > is better". > Reading through "worse is better", and the follow-up "worse is better is worse" by the same author, I'm not sure there is much to understand ;) Apart if you want to study how a misunderstood quote can become a driving force in software development... Thierry > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > https://medium.com/@dasein42/building-with-versus-building- > on-c51aa3034c71 > > > > > > This is an article not specifically about Pharo, rather on the state of > the > > industry > > in general and how it got that way, but positing Pharo as a way to learn > > building-on rather than building-with, where in the latter case on > > every project you start at essentially the same place. > > > > > > As a result it does put in front of people a fair amount of info on > Pharo, > > and challenges them to try it. > > > > > > cheers > > > > Andrew Glynn > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

by Dimitris Chloupis

What is a VA Java ? and a VA C++ ? Call me an idiot or insane but I am in favor of combiding languages, though I only have heard of COBRA never used it. I am a lawyer by profession, I know fellow lawyers still using DOS and QBasic databases and yes under windows ...... sadly very common for businesses here. Ah the pleasures of technology but nothing comes close to the pleasure of rejecting it. On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 12:49 AM Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I know about personalization being a lot of work, particularly with > Eclipse. I copied the text out of the âsummaryâ page in About Eclipse into > Kate, and it was 1233 lines long, lol. > > > > I was one of two team leads on what was probably the most complex > application Iâve worked on, using VA Java and VA C++ with CORBA to exchange > objects (the need to combine both was due to legacy issues). Siemens now > owns the application, which was successful enough to bankrupt its closest > competitor, but the binary jars in the latest version are still dated 2002, > and every addition has been made via .the WS* API we included, which if I > remember correctly, uses version 1.x of WebSphere. Iâm a bit surprised it > still runs at all tbh, but its security must be horrible by now. > > > > Eclipseâs only saving grace is EMF/CDO, and a few projects built on them, > IMHO. > > > > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for > Windows 10 > > > > *From: *Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > *Sent: *Thursday, October 12, 2017 2:05 PM > *To: *Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > *Subject: *Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on" > > > > It's a mentality issue, modern programming languages provide the material > necessary to create innovative environments but their communities just > simply does not care. A language designer may introduce a feature in a > language that is super useful. Still people may not use it. > > > > And let's face it even with Pharo nothing beats a personalized > environment, of course personalisation is a lot of work. Hence why people > avoid it. > > > > Essentially boiling down to cooking your own food instead of getting it > from a shop. When you begin to learn how to cook , its kinda sucks, but the > more you cook the better it tastes. Of course it takes time to get there > and hence why so few people cook. > > > > Eclispe , which I will disagree with your that is not the worst IDE, > started as a smalltalk IDE and then it got Eclipsed. I am sure those people > had a "build on" environment , still it got messy. We can blame porting to > Java, but can we really blame Java for the mess that is called > "Eclipse".... ehhhh.... nope. > > > > I once saw a youtube video about a musician using windows sounds (the > standard sounds we all know of) to make a very nice music piece. He did > all that using multiple instances of windows media player. Just pause > reading think about this for a minute. That's the real essence of creativity > > > > Use something very limited and come up with something amazing. The > software industry is not about creativity for the most part. On the other > hand I that work with 3d its amazing how fast super cool new technologies > pop around like mushrooms. Every year we have massive improvements in > libraries and tools. But the coding for 3d graphics is all about creativity > , artists are not very forgiving for ugly GUI, limited features and > innovation stagnation. Artists want to be inspired by the tools they use. > But then that's the creativity realm. Creativity pays the bills in this > case, lack of it , game is not fun, rendering or animation is not fun, you > can lose millions. > > > > Of course in the creativity realm , there is too much innovation and > unless you keep up you are kicked out the door, yesterday. Which brings > down to the problem of complexity and how you deal with it. And I don't > mean about bad complexity , aka web dev, I am talking about good > complexity. Features you cannot ignore because other will use before you > and you are left behind etc. > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 7:13 PM Peter Fisk <peter.fisk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Thanks for posting this. > > > > It is one of the best descriptions of the state of the software industry > that I have seen. > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > https://medium.com/@dasein42/building-with-versus-building-on-c51aa3034c71 > > > > This is an article not *specifically* about Pharo, rather on the state of the industry > in general and how it got that way, but positing Pharo as a way to learn > building-*on* rather than building-*with*, where in the latter case on > every project you start at essentially the same place. > > > > As a result it does put in front of people a fair amount of info on Pharo, > and challenges them to try it. > > > > cheers > > Andrew Glynn > > > > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Dimitris Chloupis

I could help with the Greek subtitles but I am fundamental against the idea of learning anything code wise in a non english language. It does much more damage than good. Congrats for making it so accessible and all your hard work :) On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 9:42 AM Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 21:59:53 +0200 > Stephane Ducasse > <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > I'm about to release the en versions. > > you can find them unofficially on http://www.stephaneducasse.eu/MOOC/ > > I've downloaded one and can I safelyassume that the 'new' videos are same > content as the old ones jsut with the English voice dubbed over? > > In that case, I'd prefer to use/watch old ones with the subtitles. > > > Sincerely, > Gour > > -- > He who is satisfied with gain which comes of its own accord, who > is free from duality and does not envy, who is steady in both > success and failure, is never entangled, although performing actions. > > > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Dimitris Chloupis

Personally I dont get it, we find the path to bootstrap the pharo image clear and we cannot see the path to namespaces ? it makes zero sense to me Plus what you say, countless and countless of implementation of namespaces out there. And again what you say about perfection. If C++ can improve, If C++ can dream of namespaces planning the introduction of modules(in future version) in replacement (not removal) of his awful header file format.... I think we got the excuse to be confident we can come up with something decent. We develop a freaking IDE for crying out loud. No it wont be a walk in the park, no it wont get done in one or next version, and no it cannot be an individual our outside effort. But we have the community super qualified to do it. On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 8:51 AM Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 8:52 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> > wrote: > >> horrido wrote >> > Having separate namespaces would be really good. >> > VisualWorks has them. Why not Pharo? >> >> I can't remember ever hearing disagreement on this subject. It seems the >> only questions have been: 1) how to do them *right*, > > > The default position would be leveraging someone else's experience, so > this begs the question, what is wrong in namespace implementations in VW, > Gemstone, Squeak (as our immediate neighbours, then plus Dolphin, > SmalltalkX, other languages) > Are there been any research papers around comparing these? > > I found the "Pharo on Gemstone VM" talk impressive. The "develop on Pharo > deploy on Gemstone" philosophy seems like a nice synergy for Pharo's > commercial future. So a naive approach would be to do namespaces just like > Gemstone. Maybe its not the best, but would it be "good enough" -- > perfection being the enemy of done and all that jazz. > > cheers -ben > > >> and 2) where they fall on the endless prioritized todo list >> >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

> That is a familiar path, but still an obstacle for people to get over in > trying Pharo - i.e. its a barrier of entry. I've previously referred to > this article by JoelOnSoftware, but to pull out a key part... "Think of > these barriers as an obstacle course that people have to run before you can > count them as your customers. If you start out with a field of 1000 > runners, about half of them will trip on the tires; half of the survivors > wonât be strong enough to jump the wall; half of those survivors will fall > off the rope ladder into the mud, and so on, until only 1 or 2 people > actually overcome all the hurdles. With 8 or 9 barriers, everybody will > have one non-negotiable deal killer. This calculus means that eliminating > barriers to switching is the most important thing you have to do if you > want to take over an existing market, because eliminating just one barrier > will likely double your sales. Eliminate two barriers, and youâll double > your sales again." > > ****WARNING LONG POST AHEAD**** There numerous reason why this kind of thinking is fundamental flawed, if not completely wrong 1) How you get people to run in this race ? 2) What makes you think that people participating in the race doing to get first or even finish ? 3) How you are certain that those barriers are not the very reason people participate ? The fundamental problem is that if you base your assumption that people are motivated on avoidance of pain, this is a very popular argument by the way, you going to be severely disapointed. From the very first fact that there is a 90% chance that right now that you use almost 100% of your time one of the worst software to be ever created. Microsoft Windows. Of course you can throw claims to me that peope use Windows because that is what's popular and widely available, but then so is MacOS is by far the easiest to use OS out there. When you pit Windows vs Macos a such taboo subject , fuel to so many flame wars, there is one thing that both sides agree on and that is that MacOS is far easier to use , perdiod. The rest of the debate which OS is the best is up in the air and frankly not the point of my argument. The fact is , we love pain, we love barriers, we love doors that slam into our face. We love challange. But only if we find it interesting. Of course Windows is not the only example (C/C++ , Java , Web dev, computer games and the list is just endless)of the machocistic nature of human beings. I dont need to look far, my own story about how I started coding is more than enough . I am going to ramble about my initiation to the realm of coding , so feel free to ignore the rest of my post but what the hell here we go. >From an early age , no idea when, I was exposed to the idea of the computer. Never used one before or saw on in person other than what I saw in the TV I asked my father to get me one and he agreed on the ground that I wont use it just to play games but to learn how to code. My father had no idea what coding is, had no idea what technology is, to this day he hates technology and he refuses to learn even how to close a window. None , friend , relative or random stranger I knew used a computer. So I got this weird thing called computer and turned it on, of course motivated to play games like any other kind in my age, I was 9 years old at the time, december 1988. But I had a sense of honor even from that age so I had to keep my promise. So I did and I was fascinated by it, to the degree that I was coding as much I was playing games. Problem is that it was mainly masochistic venture. I had one book and one book alone, none that had any clue how to show how to turn this thing on and of course no internet, no schools, no magazines I could afford to buy or even know where to buy them . So in 3 years, I made nothing special, only tiny fragments of code and I was still struggling with basic concept like looping. Yes, looping. But I already was doing things that a greek kid did not suppose to do and I did not even fit the geek stereotype at the time (not that the term existed at the time, I still does not exist in my language), I had tons of friends, I was anything but shy , I was the craziest nosiest kid suffering from the annoying syndrom of hyperactivity and with very lmited attention span. I was the absolute worst candidate to learn how to code, yet I did . Sort of. Then my father decided to send me, after me begging on my knees, on a prrivate school, that just opened near our neighborhood for learning. At the time time I only still had the same computer, Amstrad CPC 6128 and knew the very basics of Locomotive Basic which was used also by the computer as a bash like language for its OS. I went 3 years, the first year I did ok, an average student even though I had by far the most experience than other kids we learned GWBASIC. The second year I did terrible, we learned DBASE and the third we learned CLIPPER and blow any other student completely away, I was the only to graduate with 99.8% and our teacher was super strict on the matter of grades. But I wanted more. So I went and learned C++ and assembly because why not and when I told my teacher that, he was looking me with his eye wide open, took me quite a lenghy discussion to convince him that this was true. The reason why the first year I did average was that it was too easy. I was already familiar with Basic , sure I was struggling with basic concepts when I started but under the wing of the teacher (he was a great teacher, professional coder and highly skilled at helping you understand even the most difficult concepts) and full access to multiple books in few months became a walk in the park. The second year was a disaster, partly because our teacher decided to hire a relative of his to teach us DBASE and the guy was a moron wasting his time with telling jokes. The truth is that I did not like and still dont like database coding. Clipper I fall in love with it at the time because still a database orientated language but our teacher tought us, his relative got sacked as soon as he learned that he sucked, that happened one year after because none of the kids had the courage to go tell him and it was probably a parent the told him and did so well I was even offered to make a database for a considerable amount of money. Said no. Again not interested. My story is nothing special, I heard it in slightly diffirent versions by countless others in a similar situation however my point is not to brag, because lets face it I was just merely learning languages and not doing any serious coding , my point is that the drive behind it was the pain. Was the obstacles. Was the challange. Pharo for me is also the same story. At the time I was coding in Python, super easy, got the job done, had no intention learning another language because why bother when they all look the same and they would have been much less powerful than Python. I was super happy with Python and still is one of my favorite language as you all know. Then I saw people on forums rambling about this weird language called Lisp , I was interested, google a tutorial , saw the parentheses , said "hell no!" and carried on coding in python. Then even more people claiming that it was so amazing, that it can cure cancer and make you super sexy. I always wanted to be super sexy so I said, ok lets give this a serious try. So I bought a book called "Land of Lisp" very fun to read, terrible teaching material, messy and all over the place. Community was terrible too (Common Lisp), at least some people, rude, snobs, evangelistic and plain stupid. A minority of people but still enough to ruin your day.Then I was introduced to emacs, another super painful experience, thoroughly enjoyed and one day I mentioned how cool it would be if one could combine the simplicity of Lisp with emacs but via a GUI IDE and without elisp which was hog slow. People immediately recommended Squeak, I though they were messing with me because none would pick such a ridiculous name for a language. Looked to me like a toy language for kids and then it hit my face like a train. Pain, pain and more pain. But it was well worth, I was completely blown away from the elegance of Smalltalk. The learning curve of Smalltalk and Lisp are plain insane. Made learningh DOS Assembly a walk in the park in comparison. But frankly thats half of the fun. Many obstacles, many challanges. And there lies my point that an obstacle is a good thing when it becomes an interesting challange. You have to have at least a degree of masochism to learn how to code in any language. Of course the question is what makes an interesting challange and welcome to the abyss that is called "human brain". None knows and we are not anywhere close in finding out. What we know is that documentation is super important , whether you are a masochist or not, you need it to progress. Problems is that documentation is hard to create and maintain, again masochism required. So we should not just worry about making it easier for people to reach documentation we should make it easier for people to maintain it. Because even masochism has its limits. Those limits are as far it is a pleasureable pain. So congratulations to anyone reading this long post , you already proven my point. Thus, let embrace the pain of Pharo and the pain of smalltalk and instead of trying to make it easy, boring and usual. Lets turn it to a challange, lets turn it to a painful yet pleasureable experience I think to that extend we in a very good path, I think Pharo is definetly a fun experience to use and learn. A huge plus also for Pharo is the community and how welcoming it is, we take for granted but my experience with Python was not the best either. I joined the IRC channel, other than having to endure the stupidity of "say lol 3 times and you are banned" , too many wars over languages and how superior Python is than anything else. Guido is god and blah blah blah... No thanks. People here are open minded, still "religious" about Smaltalk but they actually want to help , not to teach, actually help. I think we are a bit too obsessed on how to make Pharo popular, Smalltalkers suffer from this insecurity of the "failure" of the "best language of the world" not only to become popular but also to convince coders that "is not a a relic of the past". But we are fine, documentation is doing grear, Pharo is improving rapidly , the community is welcoming as ever. All we need is embrace our successes and our failures, reject the hype, consider the crticism and accept it or reject it and generally carry on doing what we all love. Improving Pharo. ;)

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Gour

On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 21:59:53 +0200 Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I'm about to release the en versions. > you can find them unofficially on http://www.stephaneducasse.eu/MOOC/ I've downloaded one and can I safelyassume that the 'new' videos are same content as the old ones jsut with the English voice dubbed over? In that case, I'd prefer to use/watch old ones with the subtitles. Sincerely, Gour -- He who is satisfied with gain which comes of its own accord, who is free from duality and does not envy, who is steady in both success and failure, is never entangled, although performing actions.

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Stephane Ducasse

Hello It would be super great :) the files are in the github repo https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/PharoMooc/tree/master/Subtitles Stef On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:25 AM, Ricardo Pacheco <ricardo.pacheco.roldan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hello Stephane, I can help with the Spanish subtitles. You can send me a file > with the text, if you have it. My french is basic so please send also the > English fil, to double check. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

Oct. 13, 2017

Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Ben Coman

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 8:52 PM, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > horrido wrote > > Having separate namespaces would be really good. > > VisualWorks has them. Why not Pharo? > > I can't remember ever hearing disagreement on this subject. It seems the > only questions have been: 1) how to do them *right*, The default position would be leveraging someone else's experience, so this begs the question, what is wrong in namespace implementations in VW, Gemstone, Squeak (as our immediate neighbours, then plus Dolphin, SmalltalkX, other languages) Are there been any research papers around comparing these? I found the "Pharo on Gemstone VM" talk impressive. The "develop on Pharo deploy on Gemstone" philosophy seems like a nice synergy for Pharo's commercial future. So a naive approach would be to do namespaces just like Gemstone. Maybe its not the best, but would it be "good enough" -- perfection being the enemy of done and all that jazz. cheers -ben > and 2) where they fall on the endless prioritized todo list >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Ben Coman

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 3:43 PM, Christophe Demarey < christophe.demarey(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hi Vitor, > > Le 11 oct. 2017 Ã 13:44, Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit > : > > Hi Christophe, > > Yes, but: > > 1- I canât execute it if I donât have administrative rights > > ok. That the point I missed. > I think I will add a zip file with PharoLauncher for windows for user like > you not having admin rights. > Might this be a "portable" app, where downloaded images and VMs are stored next to the PharoLancher application, configured by a startup-setting file? Alternatively... searching around I found this... https://stackoverflow.com/questions/18990418/nsis-require-admin-permission https://github.com/NSIS-Dev/Documentation/blob/master/Reference/RequestExec… Also, when PharoLauncher is installed by an administrator and later used by a standard user, I guess there may be problems with Pharo needing to write changes to a restricted location?? Maybe that can be dealt with by... when a new user runs PharoLauncher from the start menu, copy it to their user folder $LocalAppdata\Programs\PharoLauncher and run PharoLauncher from there where they have privilege to write? https://stackoverflow.com/questions/31641818/install-application-files-to-s… btw, where are the NSIS source files accessible? Can they be dropped in the PharoLauncher git repo? HTH cheers -ben

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Ben Coman

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 10:39 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. > That is a familiar path, but still an obstacle for people to get over in trying Pharo - i.e. its a barrier of entry. I've previously referred to this article by JoelOnSoftware, but to pull out a key part... "Think of these barriers as an obstacle course that people have to run before you can count them as your customers. If you start out with a field of 1000 runners, about half of them will trip on the tires; half of the survivors wonât be strong enough to jump the wall; half of those survivors will fall off the rope ladder into the mud, and so on, until only 1 or 2 people actually overcome all the hurdles. With 8 or 9 barriers, everybody will have one non-negotiable deal killer. This calculus means that eliminating barriers to switching is the most important thing you have to do if you want to take over an existing market, because eliminating just one barrier will likely double your sales. Eliminate two barriers, and youâll double your sales again." For example, Stef mentioned that the Pharo web docs were dropped because were't used much. But perhaps their value is not for regular use by the community, but more for outsiders evaluating Pharo, or newcomers transitioning from their old workflow to a Pharo one. In that case their value eliminating one barrier of entry is much greater than measured from the number of page hits. btw, What I like about Richards's articles is that... most of our community's articles are for people already using Pharo, even if only a newcomer of a few days working through an introductory tutorial. Richard's articles target outsiders and one of the side benefits for *me* is that it pulls in critical outside perspectives to remind me of the barriers-of-entry stopping people using Pharo. Take for instance the common angst people have against working in an Image in Smalltalk. There are some legitimate concerns with ending up in a state you can't recreate, which we are addressing this with the bootstrapping projects. But I think we might publicize this better to outsiders. For example... Mr Smith knows nothing about Smalltalk and takes an interest in Pharo. Smith discusses with colleague Jones who presents a poor opinion of the Smalltalk Image approach. So Smith never tries Pharo! Alternatively, if Smith has already read in an FAQ about this common argument and how we address it by our bootstrap process, he can inform Jones', and maybe now we've got two curious newcomers. cheers -ben

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Ricardo Pacheco

Hello Stephane, I can help with the Spanish subtitles. You can send me a file with the text, if you have it. My french is basic so please send also the English fil, to double check. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Zinc release?

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 12 Oct 2017, at 15:58, Herby VojÄÃk <herby(a)mailbox.sk> wrote: > > There are a few fixes out there for Zinc, not to mention convenience like ZnEntity class >> json:. Don't you consider releasing the new version (as I tried to update it by hand, it is not that easy, it has more components, to load HTTP I had to update Character-Encoding as well, so probably better if bumped as a group)? > > Herby That's what configurations are for, to track the latest development release in a consistent way. You just do ConfigurationOfZincHTTPComponents project bleedingEdge load. Provided you loaded a recent configuration. See the class comment of ConfigurationOfZincHTTPComponents for more info. Sven

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

by Andrew Glynn

I know about personalization being a lot of work, particularly with Eclipse. I copied the text out of the âsummaryâ page in About Eclipse into Kate, and it was 1233 lines long, lol. I was one of two team leads on what was probably the most complex application Iâve worked on, using VA Java and VA C++ with CORBA to exchange objects (the need to combine both was due to legacy issues). Siemens now owns the application, which was successful enough to bankrupt its closest competitor, but the binary jars in the latest version are still dated 2002, and every addition has been made via .the WS* API we included, which if I remember correctly, uses version 1.x of WebSphere. Iâm a bit surprised it still runs at all tbh, but its security must be horrible by now. Eclipseâs only saving grace is EMF/CDO, and a few projects built on them, IMHO. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Dimitris Chloupis Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 2:05 PM To: Any question about pharo is welcome Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on" It's a mentality issue, modern programming languages provide the material necessary to create innovative environments but their communities just simply does not care. A language designer may introduce a feature in a language that is super useful. Still people may not use it.Â And let's face it even with Pharo nothing beats a personalized environment, of course personalisation is a lot of work. Hence why people avoid it.Â Â Essentially boiling down to cooking your own food instead of getting it from a shop. When you begin to learn how to cook , its kinda sucks, but the more you cook the better it tastes. Of course it takes time to get there and hence why so few people cook.Â Eclispe , which I will disagree with your that is not the worst IDE, started as a smalltalk IDE and then it got Eclipsed. I am sure those people had a "build on" environment , still it got messy. We can blame porting to Java, but can we really blame Java for the mess that is called "Eclipse".... ehhhh.... nope.Â I once saw a youtube video about a musician using windows sounds (the standard sounds we all know of) to makeÂ a very nice music piece. He did all that using multiple instances of windows media player. Just pause reading think about this for a minute. That's the real essence of creativity Use something very limited and come up with something amazing. The software industry is not about creativity for the most part. On the other hand I that work with 3d its amazing how fast super cool new technologies pop around like mushrooms. Every year we have massive improvements in libraries and tools. But the coding for 3d graphics is all about creativity , artists are not very forgiving for ugly GUI, limited features and innovation stagnation. Artists want to be inspired by the tools they use. But then that's the creativity realm. Creativity pays the bills in this case, lack of it , game is not fun, rendering or animation is not fun, you can lose millions.Â Of course in the creativity realm , there is too much innovation and unless you keep up you are kicked out the door, yesterday. Which brings down to the problem of complexity and how you deal with it. And I don't mean about bad complexity , aka web dev, I am talking about good complexity. Features you cannot ignore because other will use before you and you are left behind etc.Â On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 7:13 PM Peter Fisk <peter.fisk(a)gmail.com> wrote: Thanks for posting this. It is one of the best descriptions of the state of the software industry that I have seen. On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: https://medium.com/@dasein42/building-with-versus-building-on-c51aa3034c71 This is an article not specifically about Pharo, rather on the state of the industry in general and how it got that way, but positing Pharo as a way to learn building-on rather than building-with, where in the latter case on every project you start at essentially the same place. As a result it does put in front of people a fair amount of info on Pharo, and challenges them to try it. cheers Andrew Glynn

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

by Stephane Ducasse

Thanks Andrew I read it fast and I will reread it. It is really interesting to me because I never took the time to understand "worse is better". On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > https://medium.com/@dasein42/building-with-versus-building-on-c51aa3034c71 > > > This is an article not specifically about Pharo, rather on the state of the > industry > in general and how it got that way, but positing Pharo as a way to learn > building-on rather than building-with, where in the latter case on > every project you start at essentially the same place. > > > As a result it does put in front of people a fair amount of info on Pharo, > and challenges them to try it. > > > cheers > > Andrew Glynn

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Stephane Ducasse

On Mon, Oct 9, 2017 at 2:45 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hey, guys, I'm mentioned in this O'Reilly newsletter > <http://post.oreilly.com/form/oreilly/viewhtml/9z1zgj2l150hp80ah3enjvhjhqcnr…> > !!! All because of the Pharo article. > > I wonder, is my campaign /actually/ succeeding? If so, I can die happy. ;-) Great! But do not die yet we have more to do :). Stef

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Libusb binding + HID support for Pharo

by Stephane Ducasse

Hi Julien I will read the small tutorial for sure. I have many PS3 paddle at home waiting for it. Stef On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Julien <julien.delplanque(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > >> >> >> For example, one could get data from a PS3 controller, a mouse, a >> keyboard, an Arduino device, etcâ¦ > > > And did you use it for these kind of devices? Or anything else? > > > There is an example with an HID mouse on the wiki > https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo/wiki/Get-and-parse-HID-reports > > I managed to get data from a PS3 controller but I can not find my code > anymore, I think I lost it. > > It was not that hard to do, I may re-do it one day and write a small > tutorial. > > The only problem with PS3 controller is that the HID descriptor is hidden > (you have to get it from the internet, it is not stored in the device). > > Julien

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Stephane Ducasse

I'm about to release the en versions. you can find them unofficially on http://www.stephaneducasse.eu/MOOC/ Stef On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 10:10 PM, Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:31:55 +0200 > Stephane Ducasse > <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hello Stef, > >> I will ask one guy thursday and let you know. > > Thanks a lot! > >> We will release Mooc with english voices (not mine else english >> natives would get an heart attack - I have what they call a sexy >> french accents ;) > > I did watch few of your Pharo-related presentations and, although not native, > happily survived. :-) > > Moreover, I'd say that your English is charming! At least, one is sure that the > real human is speaking and not some "robot" put on auto-pilot, so if the new > Mooc is going to be the same as the current/old one, I'd prefer to download > the current files and watched them along with *.srt subtitles? > > Iow. my point is that the accent is just one part of the talk/teaching, but the > energy behind it is much more imporant - this is, my conviction, based on my > own teaching experiences. > > > Sincerely, > Gour > > -- > From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion > bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, > intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost > one falls down again into the material pool. > > >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Stephane Ducasse

Tx I wish you the best for your phd. On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:08 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > I would love to. As soon as I finish my PhD (that has become my > "anguished motto") I will have time for this community endeavors again. > > Cheers, > > Offray > > > On 10/10/17 14:02, Stephane Ducasse wrote: >> Thanks offray. >> I would love to have spanish subtitles. >> We will have japanese subtitles >> >> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 3:19 PM, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas >> <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: >>> Probably is a English native speaker. It really amuse me the amount of >>> complain about this. Is something like, please don't show me anything other >>> cultures, even if I just need to turn on captions and read(!), like most of >>> us did to learn English by ourselves. Whenever I have the opportunity, I see >>> movies in their native language and just add subtitles, to lost less in >>> translation. Yes, English is the third most spread language and is good for >>> intercultural communication, because is the most spread *second* language, >>> but sadly, most English native speaker don't even bother about experience >>> the minimum of other language and cultures, beyond the "tourist package" and >>> even hear another language seems too much effort. Fortunately there is a >>> minority of native English speakers that thinks different. >>> >>> Thanks for the voice translation. It improves a course that was already good >>> and totally doable with subtitles. >>> >>> Keep the good work. Cheers, >>> >>> Offray >>> >>> >>> On 10/10/17 08:05, Serge Stinckwich wrote: >>> >>> The MOOC is completely dubbed in English this year, so you don't need >>> subtitles. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 1:07 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>>> Somebody posted this about the Pharo MOOC: >>>> >>>> https://medium.com/@josephshirk/it-would-be-nice-if-it-were-in-english-b07f… >>>> >>>> To which I responded: >>>> >>>> https://medium.com/@richardeng/the-videos-are-like-lecturers-in-university-… >>>> >>>> Some food for thought. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Serge Stinckwich >>> UCN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC) >>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk >>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ >>> >>> >> > >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] "PDFtalk 2.0", "PDFtalk for Gemstone" and "Gemstone Fileout" released

by Manuel Leuenberger

Nice! Now, whoâs is porting it to Pharo and builds a viewer/editor? I need that ;) > On 12 Oct 2017, at 21:12, Christian Haider <christian.haider(a)smalltalked-visuals.com> wrote: > > Hi, > > the second major version of the PDF library for VisualWorks is now available. > The main driver for this was the project to port the library to Gemstone which is available as well. > Also, the tool used for the port. > > Check the project page: https://wiki.pdftalk.de <https://wiki.pdftalk.de/> where you can find more information about the three projects and the release notes. > > Happy hacking, > Christian > > > Smalltalked Visuals GmbH > HRG: HRB 14115 HL Amtsgericht LÃ¼beck > GeschÃ¤ftsfÃ¼hrer: Christian Haider > Media Docks > Willy-Brandt-Allee 31c > 23554 LÃ¼beck, Germany > http://www.smallCharts.de <http://www.smallcharts.de/> > Tel.: +49 (0)170 / 1880 250

Oct. 12, 2017

[ANN] "PDFtalk 2.0", "PDFtalk for Gemstone" and "Gemstone Fileout" released

by Christian Haider

Hi, the second major version of the PDF library for VisualWorks is now available. The main driver for this was the project to port the library to Gemstone which is available as well. Also, the tool used for the port. Check the project page: https://wiki.pdftalk.de where you can find more information about the three projects and the release notes. Happy hacking, Christian Smalltalked Visuals GmbH HRG: HRB 14115 HL Amtsgericht LÃ¼beck GeschÃ¤ftsfÃ¼hrer: Christian Haider Media Docks Willy-Brandt-Allee 31c 23554 LÃ¼beck, Germany <http://www.smallcharts.de/> http://www.smallCharts.de Tel.: +49 (0)170 / 1880 250

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

by Dimitris Chloupis

It's a mentality issue, modern programming languages provide the material necessary to create innovative environments but their communities just simply does not care. A language designer may introduce a feature in a language that is super useful. Still people may not use it. And let's face it even with Pharo nothing beats a personalized environment, of course personalisation is a lot of work. Hence why people avoid it. Essentially boiling down to cooking your own food instead of getting it from a shop. When you begin to learn how to cook , its kinda sucks, but the more you cook the better it tastes. Of course it takes time to get there and hence why so few people cook. Eclispe , which I will disagree with your that is not the worst IDE, started as a smalltalk IDE and then it got Eclipsed. I am sure those people had a "build on" environment , still it got messy. We can blame porting to Java, but can we really blame Java for the mess that is called "Eclipse".... ehhhh.... nope. I once saw a youtube video about a musician using windows sounds (the standard sounds we all know of) to make a very nice music piece. He did all that using multiple instances of windows media player. Just pause reading think about this for a minute. That's the real essence of creativity Use something very limited and come up with something amazing. The software industry is not about creativity for the most part. On the other hand I that work with 3d its amazing how fast super cool new technologies pop around like mushrooms. Every year we have massive improvements in libraries and tools. But the coding for 3d graphics is all about creativity , artists are not very forgiving for ugly GUI, limited features and innovation stagnation. Artists want to be inspired by the tools they use. But then that's the creativity realm. Creativity pays the bills in this case, lack of it , game is not fun, rendering or animation is not fun, you can lose millions. Of course in the creativity realm , there is too much innovation and unless you keep up you are kicked out the door, yesterday. Which brings down to the problem of complexity and how you deal with it. And I don't mean about bad complexity , aka web dev, I am talking about good complexity. Features you cannot ignore because other will use before you and you are left behind etc. On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 7:13 PM Peter Fisk <peter.fisk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks for posting this. > > It is one of the best descriptions of the state of the software industry > that I have seen. > > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > >> https://medium.com/@dasein42/building-with-versus-building-on-c51aa3034c71 >> >> >> This is an article not *specifically* about Pharo, rather on the state of the industry >> in general and how it got that way, but positing Pharo as a way to learn >> building-*on* rather than building-*with*, where in the latter case on >> every project you start at essentially the same place. >> >> >> As a result it does put in front of people a fair amount of info on >> Pharo, and challenges them to try it. >> >> >> cheers >> >> Andrew Glynn >> >> >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

by Peter Fisk

Thanks for posting this. It is one of the best descriptions of the state of the software industry that I have seen. On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > https://medium.com/@dasein42/building-with-versus-building-on-c51aa3034c71 > > > This is an article not *specifically* about Pharo, rather on the state of the industry > in general and how it got that way, but positing Pharo as a way to learn > building-*on* rather than building-*with*, where in the latter case on > every project you start at essentially the same place. > > > As a result it does put in front of people a fair amount of info on Pharo, > and challenges them to try it. > > > cheers > > Andrew Glynn > >

Oct. 12, 2017

"Building-With versus Building-on"

by Andrew Glynn

https://medium.com/@dasein42/building-with-versus-building-on-c51aa3034 c71 This is an article not specifically about Pharo, rather on the state of the industry in general and how it got that way, but positing Pharo as a way to learn building-on rather than building-with, where in the latter case on every project you start at essentially the same place.Â Â As a result it does put in front of people a fair amount of info on Pharo, and challenges them to try it. cheersAndrew Glynn

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Brad

Plus, namespaces are difficult to implement. It could tear your class library to pieces Brad Selfridge 913-269-2385 > On Oct 12, 2017, at 9:10 AM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > For me there is also question 3) How closely they are related to the bootstrap project > > namespaces afterall is all about modularity which is the goal of bootstrap as well . no ? > So maybe we should not view them as a separate project and more as boostrap v2 , after v1 is released of course > Proably Pharo 9 or 10 should be a good period to focus on them. Bootstrap will have matured and stabilize and then we can go the extra step of namespaces. > > Also in Delphi , besides namespaces which is purely a language construct we had "Components" , think of them as namespaces but meant to work convenient in a IDE enviroment. I really like it as an idea and Delphi based its whole library on components. Again pure objects of course, with some metadata for the IDE to use, like category, dependencies etc > > So if namespaces is the bridge between bootstrap and the language , Components can be the bridge between bootsrap and the IDE , because their role was to assembly libraries together via drag and drop and make code like legos. So it can be Components containing namespaces, namespaces containing objects. > > Thats one idea that worked well enough in practice to make Borland very profitable. It applied it both in Delphin and C++ Builder products. The library was called VCL (Visual Component Library) and still exists today after decades of use. > > Metacello also can come to this game on the basis that nowdays everything is online , Components could abstract git and other version controls and offer a convenient drag and drop from the github directly to the comforts of you image with no extra tool needed like Iceberg. > > You can then use Iceberg to commit back to the repo. > > It can really come together quite nicely if Components function as in Delphi, a common protocol for object to communicate for IDE convenience, without braking the existing legacy code in Pharo. > > Well thats just an idea, based on my personal experience. > >> On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 3:53 PM Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: >> horrido wrote >> > Having separate namespaces would be really good. >> > VisualWorks has them. Why not Pharo? >> >> I can't remember ever hearing disagreement on this subject. It seems the >> only questions have been: 1) how to do them *right*, and 2) where they fall >> on the endless prioritized todo list >> >> >> >> ----- >> Cheers, >> Sean >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>

Oct. 12, 2017

Zinc release?

by Herby VojÄÃk

There are a few fixes out there for Zinc, not to mention convenience like ZnEntity class >> json:. Don't you consider releasing the new version (as I tried to update it by hand, it is not that easy, it has more components, to load HTTP I had to update Character-Encoding as well, so probably better if bumped as a group)? Herby

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Libusb binding + HID support for Pharo

by Julien

> > > > For example, one could get data from a PS3 controller, a mouse, a keyboard, an Arduino device, etcâ¦ > > And did you use it for these kind of devices? Or anything else? > There is an example with an HID mouse on the wiki https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo/wiki/Get-and-parse-HID-reports <https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo/wiki/Get-and-parse-HID-reports> I managed to get data from a PS3 controller but I can not find my code anymore, I think I lost it. It was not that hard to do, I may re-do it one day and write a small tutorial. The only problem with PS3 controller is that the HID descriptor is hidden (you have to get it from the internet, it is not stored in the device). Julien

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Libusb binding + HID support for Pharo

by Denis Kudriashov

2017-10-12 13:29 GMT+02:00 Julien <julien.delplanque(a)inria.fr>: > Hello, > > A bit late, there is a Libusb [1] binding (using UFFI) and support for the > Human Interface Device [2] (that uses the binding but is written in pure > Smalltalk) for Pharo. > > Everything is on the github repository [3]. Â« Install Â» and Â« Quick > start Â» sections give you all you need to start using the project. > > One could also have a look at the wiki [4]. > > It works on Linux but hasnât been tested on Mac OS nor Windows (it should > work since libusb library works on these platforms). > > Do not forget to install the 32 bits versions of libusb on your computer. > > The purpose of this library is to provide the ability to use USB devices > directly from Pharo. > Cool project. > > For example, one could get data from a PS3 controller, a mouse, a > keyboard, an Arduino device, etcâ¦ > And did you use it for these kind of devices? Or anything else? > > Cheers, > > Julien > > PS: I realised this project during an internship in TaMÃ¨re SCRL company > [5]. Thanks to them! > > Links: > [1]: http://libusb.info > [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device > [3]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo > [4]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo/wiki > [5]: http://tamere.eu >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

For me there is also question 3) How closely they are related to the bootstrap project namespaces afterall is all about modularity which is the goal of bootstrap as well . no ? So maybe we should not view them as a separate project and more as boostrap v2 , after v1 is released of course Proably Pharo 9 or 10 should be a good period to focus on them. Bootstrap will have matured and stabilize and then we can go the extra step of namespaces. Also in Delphi , besides namespaces which is purely a language construct we had "Components" , think of them as namespaces but meant to work convenient in a IDE enviroment. I really like it as an idea and Delphi based its whole library on components. Again pure objects of course, with some metadata for the IDE to use, like category, dependencies etc So if namespaces is the bridge between bootstrap and the language , Components can be the bridge between bootsrap and the IDE , because their role was to assembly libraries together via drag and drop and make code like legos. So it can be Components containing namespaces, namespaces containing objects. Thats one idea that worked well enough in practice to make Borland very profitable. It applied it both in Delphin and C++ Builder products. The library was called VCL (Visual Component Library) and still exists today after decades of use. Metacello also can come to this game on the basis that nowdays everything is online , Components could abstract git and other version controls and offer a convenient drag and drop from the github directly to the comforts of you image with no extra tool needed like Iceberg. You can then use Iceberg to commit back to the repo. It can really come together quite nicely if Components function as in Delphi, a common protocol for object to communicate for IDE convenience, without braking the existing legacy code in Pharo. Well thats just an idea, based on my personal experience. On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 3:53 PM Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > horrido wrote > > Having separate namespaces would be really good. > > VisualWorks has them. Why not Pharo? > > I can't remember ever hearing disagreement on this subject. It seems the > only questions have been: 1) how to do them *right*, and 2) where they fall > on the endless prioritized todo list > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Libusb binding + HID support for Pharo

by Thierry Goubier

2017-10-12 15:05 GMT+02:00 Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com>: > > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 2:49 PM, Julien <julien.delplanque(a)inria.fr> > wrote: > >> Normally, it should be possible. >> >> Libusb can be compiled for 64bits architectures. I donât know if it >> changes something in the UFFI binding side? >> > > It should not, besides the library's location. > > That was the first hurdle. Easily solved. > And, if you find a case where the binding does not work on 64 bits it is > either: > - a UFFI bug in the type mappings (e.g., a wrong mapping between a type > name and the correct 32/64 bit size and marshalling) > - or a bug in the bindings using the wrong types (e.g., using long > instead of void*) > And the first FFI call fails (the lib init). Thierry > > >> >> Julien >> >> Le 12 oct. 2017 Ã 14:41, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> a >> Ã©crit : >> >> Very cool. Would that be doable to adapt for a 64bits version? >> >> Thierry >> >> 2017-10-12 13:29 GMT+02:00 Julien <julien.delplanque(a)inria.fr>: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> A bit late, there is a Libusb [1] binding (using UFFI) and support for >>> the Human Interface Device [2] (that uses the binding but is written in >>> pure Smalltalk) for Pharo. >>> >>> Everything is on the github repository [3]. Â« Install Â» and Â« Quick >>> start Â» sections give you all you need to start using the project. >>> >>> One could also have a look at the wiki [4]. >>> >>> It works on Linux but hasnât been tested on Mac OS nor Windows (it >>> should work since libusb library works on these platforms). >>> >>> Do not forget to install the 32 bits versions of libusb on your computer. >>> >>> The purpose of this library is to provide the ability to use USB devices >>> directly from Pharo. >>> >>> For example, one could get data from a PS3 controller, a mouse, a >>> keyboard, an Arduino device, etcâ¦ >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Julien >>> >>> PS: I realised this project during an internship in TaMÃ¨re SCRL company >>> [5]. Thanks to them! >>> >>> Links: >>> [1]: http://libusb.info >>> [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device >>> [3]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo >>> [4]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo/wiki >>> [5]: http://tamere.eu >>> >> >> >> > > > -- > > > > Guille Polito > > Research Engineer > > Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et Automatique de Lille > > CRIStAL - UMR 9189 > > French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr > <http://www.cnrs.fr>* > > > *Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* <http://guillep.github.io> > > *Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13 <+33%206%2052%2070%2066%2013> >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Libusb binding + HID support for Pharo

by Guillermo Polito

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 2:49 PM, Julien <julien.delplanque(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Normally, it should be possible. > > Libusb can be compiled for 64bits architectures. I donât know if it > changes something in the UFFI binding side? > It should not, besides the library's location. And, if you find a case where the binding does not work on 64 bits it is either: - a UFFI bug in the type mappings (e.g., a wrong mapping between a type name and the correct 32/64 bit size and marshalling) - or a bug in the bindings using the wrong types (e.g., using long instead of void*) > > Julien > > Le 12 oct. 2017 Ã 14:41, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> a > Ã©crit : > > Very cool. Would that be doable to adapt for a 64bits version? > > Thierry > > 2017-10-12 13:29 GMT+02:00 Julien <julien.delplanque(a)inria.fr>: > >> Hello, >> >> A bit late, there is a Libusb [1] binding (using UFFI) and support for >> the Human Interface Device [2] (that uses the binding but is written in >> pure Smalltalk) for Pharo. >> >> Everything is on the github repository [3]. Â« Install Â» and Â« Quick >> start Â» sections give you all you need to start using the project. >> >> One could also have a look at the wiki [4]. >> >> It works on Linux but hasnât been tested on Mac OS nor Windows (it should >> work since libusb library works on these platforms). >> >> Do not forget to install the 32 bits versions of libusb on your computer. >> >> The purpose of this library is to provide the ability to use USB devices >> directly from Pharo. >> >> For example, one could get data from a PS3 controller, a mouse, a >> keyboard, an Arduino device, etcâ¦ >> >> Cheers, >> >> Julien >> >> PS: I realised this project during an internship in TaMÃ¨re SCRL company >> [5]. Thanks to them! >> >> Links: >> [1]: http://libusb.info >> [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device >> [3]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo >> [4]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo/wiki >> [5]: http://tamere.eu >> > > > -- Guille Polito Research Engineer Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et Automatique de Lille CRIStAL - UMR 9189 French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr <http://www.cnrs.fr>* *Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* <http://guillep.github.io> *Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Sean P. DeNigris

horrido wrote > Having separate namespaces would be really good. > VisualWorks has them. Why not Pharo? I can't remember ever hearing disagreement on this subject. It seems the only questions have been: 1) how to do them *right*, and 2) where they fall on the endless prioritized todo list ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Libusb binding + HID support for Pharo

by Julien

Normally, it should be possible. Libusb can be compiled for 64bits architectures. I donât know if it changes something in the UFFI binding side? Julien > Le 12 oct. 2017 Ã 14:41, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit : > > Very cool. Would that be doable to adapt for a 64bits version? > > Thierry > > 2017-10-12 13:29 GMT+02:00 Julien <julien.delplanque(a)inria.fr <mailto:julien.delplanque@inria.fr>>: > Hello, > > A bit late, there is a Libusb [1] binding (using UFFI) and support for the Human Interface Device [2] (that uses the binding but is written in pure Smalltalk) for Pharo. > > Everything is on the github repository [3]. Â« Install Â» and Â« Quick start Â» sections give you all you need to start using the project. > > One could also have a look at the wiki [4]. > > It works on Linux but hasnât been tested on Mac OS nor Windows (it should work since libusb library works on these platforms). > > Do not forget to install the 32 bits versions of libusb on your computer. > > The purpose of this library is to provide the ability to use USB devices directly from Pharo. > > For example, one could get data from a PS3 controller, a mouse, a keyboard, an Arduino device, etcâ¦ > > Cheers, > > Julien > > PS: I realised this project during an internship in TaMÃ¨re SCRL company [5]. Thanks to them! > > Links: > [1]: http://libusb.info <http://libusb.info/> > [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device> > [3]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo <https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo> > [4]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo/wiki <https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo/wiki> > [5]: http://tamere.eu <http://tamere.eu/>

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Libusb binding + HID support for Pharo

by Julien

Youâre welcome! :-) > Le 12 oct. 2017 Ã 14:36, Guillermo Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit : > > Nice!!! Thanks for sharing :) > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 1:29 PM, Julien <julien.delplanque(a)inria.fr <mailto:julien.delplanque@inria.fr>> wrote: > Hello, > > A bit late, there is a Libusb [1] binding (using UFFI) and support for the Human Interface Device [2] (that uses the binding but is written in pure Smalltalk) for Pharo. > > Everything is on the github repository [3]. Â« Install Â» and Â« Quick start Â» sections give you all you need to start using the project. > > One could also have a look at the wiki [4]. > > It works on Linux but hasnât been tested on Mac OS nor Windows (it should work since libusb library works on these platforms). > > Do not forget to install the 32 bits versions of libusb on your computer. > > The purpose of this library is to provide the ability to use USB devices directly from Pharo. > > For example, one could get data from a PS3 controller, a mouse, a keyboard, an Arduino device, etcâ¦ > > Cheers, > > Julien > > PS: I realised this project during an internship in TaMÃ¨re SCRL company [5]. Thanks to them! > > Links: > [1]: http://libusb.info <http://libusb.info/> > [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device> > [3]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo <https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo> > [4]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo/wiki <https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo/wiki> > [5]: http://tamere.eu <http://tamere.eu/> > > > -- > > Guille Polito > Research Engineer > > Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et Automatique de Lille > CRIStAL - UMR 9189 > French National Center for Scientific Research - http://www.cnrs.fr <http://www.cnrs.fr/> > > Web: http://guillep.github.io <http://guillep.github.io/> > Phone: +33 06 52 70 66 13

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Libusb binding + HID support for Pharo

by Thierry Goubier

Very cool. Would that be doable to adapt for a 64bits version? Thierry 2017-10-12 13:29 GMT+02:00 Julien <julien.delplanque(a)inria.fr>: > Hello, > > A bit late, there is a Libusb [1] binding (using UFFI) and support for the > Human Interface Device [2] (that uses the binding but is written in pure > Smalltalk) for Pharo. > > Everything is on the github repository [3]. Â« Install Â» and Â« Quick > start Â» sections give you all you need to start using the project. > > One could also have a look at the wiki [4]. > > It works on Linux but hasnât been tested on Mac OS nor Windows (it should > work since libusb library works on these platforms). > > Do not forget to install the 32 bits versions of libusb on your computer. > > The purpose of this library is to provide the ability to use USB devices > directly from Pharo. > > For example, one could get data from a PS3 controller, a mouse, a > keyboard, an Arduino device, etcâ¦ > > Cheers, > > Julien > > PS: I realised this project during an internship in TaMÃ¨re SCRL company > [5]. Thanks to them! > > Links: > [1]: http://libusb.info > [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device > [3]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo > [4]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo/wiki > [5]: http://tamere.eu >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Libusb binding + HID support for Pharo

by Guillermo Polito

Nice!!! Thanks for sharing :) On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 1:29 PM, Julien <julien.delplanque(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hello, > > A bit late, there is a Libusb [1] binding (using UFFI) and support for the > Human Interface Device [2] (that uses the binding but is written in pure > Smalltalk) for Pharo. > > Everything is on the github repository [3]. Â« Install Â» and Â« Quick > start Â» sections give you all you need to start using the project. > > One could also have a look at the wiki [4]. > > It works on Linux but hasnât been tested on Mac OS nor Windows (it should > work since libusb library works on these platforms). > > Do not forget to install the 32 bits versions of libusb on your computer. > > The purpose of this library is to provide the ability to use USB devices > directly from Pharo. > > For example, one could get data from a PS3 controller, a mouse, a > keyboard, an Arduino device, etcâ¦ > > Cheers, > > Julien > > PS: I realised this project during an internship in TaMÃ¨re SCRL company > [5]. Thanks to them! > > Links: > [1]: http://libusb.info > [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device > [3]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo > [4]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo/wiki > [5]: http://tamere.eu > -- Guille Polito Research Engineer Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et Automatique de Lille CRIStAL - UMR 9189 French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr <http://www.cnrs.fr>* *Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* <http://guillep.github.io> *Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13

Oct. 12, 2017

[ANN] Libusb binding + HID support for Pharo

by Julien

Hello, A bit late, there is a Libusb [1] binding (using UFFI) and support for the Human Interface Device [2] (that uses the binding but is written in pure Smalltalk) for Pharo. Everything is on the github repository [3]. Â« Install Â» and Â« Quick start Â» sections give you all you need to start using the project. One could also have a look at the wiki [4]. It works on Linux but hasnât been tested on Mac OS nor Windows (it should work since libusb library works on these platforms). Do not forget to install the 32 bits versions of libusb on your computer. The purpose of this library is to provide the ability to use USB devices directly from Pharo. For example, one could get data from a PS3 controller, a mouse, a keyboard, an Arduino device, etcâ¦ Cheers, Julien PS: I realised this project during an internship in TaMÃ¨re SCRL company [5]. Thanks to them! Links: [1]: http://libusb.info <http://libusb.info/> [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device> [3]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo <https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo> [4]: https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo/wiki <https://github.com/tamerescrl/libusb-pharo/wiki> [5]: http://tamere.eu <http://tamere.eu/>

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by horrido

I'll second that. Having separate namespaces would be really good. VisualWorks has them. Why not Pharo? kilon.alios wrote > The one things I trully miss, even know that I am "experieced" Pharo > coder, > depending on your standards, is python namespaces > > I dont care about the dot syntax but containers of containers at language > level that will make me avoid giving weird names to my Pharo classes to > avoid potential collisions is a must have for me. It would also make the > System Browser experience much smoother not only for beginners but also > experts in Pharo. > > Also again under the threat of being thrown tomoatoes (probably justified) > I would not mind a more modular approach to image format, for example > having mutlipe files instead one monolithic. Not as a mandatory thing just > something optional, the ability to break an image to pieces , send those > pieces around so people do not have to close their image to open yours. > Fuel covers this case nicely but again it could become a bit more "out of > the box" and more automatic. . > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 11:22 AM stephan < > stephan@ > > wrote: > >> On 12-10-17 08:30, Markus Stumptner wrote: >> > Just to lead this back to the original question. What you say is >> > undoubtedly true. It is not, however, necessarily something that a >> > beginner will understand or be able to share in. >> >> That is a very important point. It also explains a lot of why we are >> missing certain things that developers coming from other environments >> take for granted: they simply provide less value to experienced >> smalltalkers. And that is indeed a barrier to entry. >> >> I remember sharply my first looking at squeak, and just not >> understanding how I could create a new class or method in a browser. >> Another was that I have been programming in seaside for a year without >> using senders and implementers. Pair programming for an hour with >> Philippe Marschall showed me so much invisible/hidden functionality. >> >> Other (mainstream) environments don't provide the immediate feedback of >> navigating, inspecting and manipulating the whole environment, and >> therefore newcomers have no appropriate expectations (internal model), >> and are clueless on what they are able to do in Pharo. Combined with the >> lack of systematic visual clues and the high density of the class >> library that makes it not easy to learn. >> >> Stephan >> >> >> -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Custom URI scheme for Pharo

by Dimitris Chloupis

I cant argue with that , dealing with C can be quite âan interestingâ experience :D itâs better and probably healthier when it happens at small dosages. On Thu, 12 Oct 2017 at 11:56, Manuel Leuenberger <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch> wrote: > Yes, that was my thread. Thanks for the hint with overlaying a transparent > OS window and controlling it from within Pharo. The overlay solution is not > a priority for me, as it would require me to dive deeper into the macOS > world. I rather live in the Pharo world, for now. :) > > On 12 Oct 2017, at 10:26, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Probably it was your thread but as I said you can make a "hack" and > overlay a system GUI over Pharo GUI This way you can view the PDF, "inside" > Pharo. I think it is even possile to get the handle of the Pharo window > and directly affect it to embed a PDF viewer. > > The second solution is better because you want have to wory about Pharo > window resizing as the PDF will be trully embeded inisde the Pharo window > instead of overlayed. > > I am willing to bet you can avoid the multiple windows anooyance in some > way on another without making your head explode. Unless its not a priority > for you. > > Looks great, well done mate. Keep the creative juices flowing ;) > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 2:02 AM Manuel Leuenberger < > leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch> wrote: > >> Sounds like a nice setup you got there :). >> >> I want to integrate documents displayed in the system viewer, as they >> cannot be displayed within Pharo (Web, PDF, â¦). So hyperlinking is the only >> way I see to get something close. I created a little demo where I injected >> hyperlinks in a PDF like âpharo://click?whatever=youwant'. When you >> click them, a little Objective-C app catches the OS event and forwards it >> to an HTTP server running in Pharo. So I can do things like this: >> >> https://youtu.be/CR_scZSDf3s >> >> On 11 Oct 2017, at 00:24, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> I think I remember this disussed before. >> By talking with Pharo I assume here about another program talking to >> Pharo ? Possible not wrriten in Pharo ? >> >> If thats the case then you can use whatever IPC works better for your >> needs. If the communication will be remotely I recommend sockets, for fast >> local communication I recommend shared memory. They are both very mature >> technologies , very reliable and cross platform. >> >> Now on the URI protocol, I think that will depend what you want to >> achieve. Any string will be easy to parse with Pharo's regex and trigger >> the approriate methods. Pharo also have Annoucements, think of it as an >> event system that awaits to be triggered by an event, usually a Pharo event >> but I see no reason why it cant listen to external events either. >> >> I do not think you will need a middle application , a servel client >> relation shipe should be more than enough. >> >> With my Atlas bridge which is a Pharo library that allows you to use >> Python libraries I did a neat trick with Pharo that it already communicated >> with Python via sockets, sending python commands but also Python could >> communicate back errors , then Pharo would trigger the debugger, display >> the python error inside the Pharo debugger and the debugger would pop up on >> the exact pharo command that send the faulty python code. You could then >> change the pharo command on the spot and it was resent and python continued >> like the error never happened to retain the all important live coding >> workflow. >> >> I created a tiny protocol to difirentia incoming messages talking about >> errors from the ones returning python varriable values. Something stupid >> like "pythonError: blah blah" but it got the job done >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 10:07 PM Manuel Leuenberger < >> leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch> wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Is there any support from the VM/Application package to add custom URI >>> schemes to listen to from within Pharo? I would like to have a hyperlink >>> like âpharo://send?data=fancypantsâ in an arbitrary document that, when >>> clicked, switches to Pharo and calls a hook I can register. Could someone >>> give me a hint how to achieve that, or do I have to build a little bridge >>> application that handles the scheme registration and talks with Pharo >>> through another channel? Currently, I only need this for OS X. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Manuel >>> >>> >> >> >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Custom URI scheme for Pharo

by Manuel Leuenberger

Yes, that was my thread. Thanks for the hint with overlaying a transparent OS window and controlling it from within Pharo. The overlay solution is not a priority for me, as it would require me to dive deeper into the macOS world. I rather live in the Pharo world, for now. :) > On 12 Oct 2017, at 10:26, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Probably it was your thread but as I said you can make a "hack" and overlay a system GUI over Pharo GUI This way you can view the PDF, "inside" Pharo. I think it is even possile to get the handle of the Pharo window and directly affect it to embed a PDF viewer. > > The second solution is better because you want have to wory about Pharo window resizing as the PDF will be trully embeded inisde the Pharo window instead of overlayed. > > I am willing to bet you can avoid the multiple windows anooyance in some way on another without making your head explode. Unless its not a priority for you. > > Looks great, well done mate. Keep the creative juices flowing ;) > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 2:02 AM Manuel Leuenberger <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch <mailto:leuenberger@inf.unibe.ch>> wrote: > Sounds like a nice setup you got there :). > > I want to integrate documents displayed in the system viewer, as they cannot be displayed within Pharo (Web, PDF, â¦). So hyperlinking is the only way I see to get something close. I created a little demo where I injected hyperlinks in a PDF like âpharo://click?whatever=youwant' <>. When you click them, a little Objective-C app catches the OS event and forwards it to an HTTP server running in Pharo. So I can do things like this: > > https://youtu.be/CR_scZSDf3s <https://youtu.be/CR_scZSDf3s> > >> On 11 Oct 2017, at 00:24, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> I think I remember this disussed before. >> By talking with Pharo I assume here about another program talking to Pharo ? Possible not wrriten in Pharo ? >> >> If thats the case then you can use whatever IPC works better for your needs. If the communication will be remotely I recommend sockets, for fast local communication I recommend shared memory. They are both very mature technologies , very reliable and cross platform. >> >> Now on the URI protocol, I think that will depend what you want to achieve. Any string will be easy to parse with Pharo's regex and trigger the approriate methods. Pharo also have Annoucements, think of it as an event system that awaits to be triggered by an event, usually a Pharo event but I see no reason why it cant listen to external events either. >> >> I do not think you will need a middle application , a servel client relation shipe should be more than enough. >> >> With my Atlas bridge which is a Pharo library that allows you to use Python libraries I did a neat trick with Pharo that it already communicated with Python via sockets, sending python commands but also Python could communicate back errors , then Pharo would trigger the debugger, display the python error inside the Pharo debugger and the debugger would pop up on the exact pharo command that send the faulty python code. You could then change the pharo command on the spot and it was resent and python continued like the error never happened to retain the all important live coding workflow. >> >> I created a tiny protocol to difirentia incoming messages talking about errors from the ones returning python varriable values. Something stupid like "pythonError: blah blah" but it got the job done >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 10:07 PM Manuel Leuenberger <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch <mailto:leuenberger@inf.unibe.ch>> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Is there any support from the VM/Application package to add custom URI schemes to listen to from within Pharo? I would like to have a hyperlink like âpharo://send?data=fancypantsâ <> in an arbitrary document that, when clicked, switches to Pharo and calls a hook I can register. Could someone give me a hint how to achieve that, or do I have to build a little bridge application that handles the scheme registration and talks with Pharo through another channel? Currently, I only need this for OS X. >> >> Cheers, >> Manuel >> >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

The one things I trully miss, even know that I am "experieced" Pharo coder, depending on your standards, is python namespaces I dont care about the dot syntax but containers of containers at language level that will make me avoid giving weird names to my Pharo classes to avoid potential collisions is a must have for me. It would also make the System Browser experience much smoother not only for beginners but also experts in Pharo. Also again under the threat of being thrown tomoatoes (probably justified) I would not mind a more modular approach to image format, for example having mutlipe files instead one monolithic. Not as a mandatory thing just something optional, the ability to break an image to pieces , send those pieces around so people do not have to close their image to open yours. Fuel covers this case nicely but again it could become a bit more "out of the box" and more automatic. . On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 11:22 AM stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl> wrote: > On 12-10-17 08:30, Markus Stumptner wrote: > > Just to lead this back to the original question. What you say is > > undoubtedly true. It is not, however, necessarily something that a > > beginner will understand or be able to share in. > > That is a very important point. It also explains a lot of why we are > missing certain things that developers coming from other environments > take for granted: they simply provide less value to experienced > smalltalkers. And that is indeed a barrier to entry. > > I remember sharply my first looking at squeak, and just not > understanding how I could create a new class or method in a browser. > Another was that I have been programming in seaside for a year without > using senders and implementers. Pair programming for an hour with > Philippe Marschall showed me so much invisible/hidden functionality. > > Other (mainstream) environments don't provide the immediate feedback of > navigating, inspecting and manipulating the whole environment, and > therefore newcomers have no appropriate expectations (internal model), > and are clueless on what they are able to do in Pharo. Combined with the > lack of systematic visual clues and the high density of the class > library that makes it not easy to learn. > > Stephan > > >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Custom URI scheme for Pharo

by Dimitris Chloupis

Probably it was your thread but as I said you can make a "hack" and overlay a system GUI over Pharo GUI This way you can view the PDF, "inside" Pharo. I think it is even possile to get the handle of the Pharo window and directly affect it to embed a PDF viewer. The second solution is better because you want have to wory about Pharo window resizing as the PDF will be trully embeded inisde the Pharo window instead of overlayed. I am willing to bet you can avoid the multiple windows anooyance in some way on another without making your head explode. Unless its not a priority for you. Looks great, well done mate. Keep the creative juices flowing ;) On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 2:02 AM Manuel Leuenberger <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch> wrote: > Sounds like a nice setup you got there :). > > I want to integrate documents displayed in the system viewer, as they > cannot be displayed within Pharo (Web, PDF, â¦). So hyperlinking is the only > way I see to get something close. I created a little demo where I injected > hyperlinks in a PDF like âpharo://click?whatever=youwant'. When you click > them, a little Objective-C app catches the OS event and forwards it to an > HTTP server running in Pharo. So I can do things like this: > > https://youtu.be/CR_scZSDf3s > > On 11 Oct 2017, at 00:24, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I think I remember this disussed before. > By talking with Pharo I assume here about another program talking to Pharo > ? Possible not wrriten in Pharo ? > > If thats the case then you can use whatever IPC works better for your > needs. If the communication will be remotely I recommend sockets, for fast > local communication I recommend shared memory. They are both very mature > technologies , very reliable and cross platform. > > Now on the URI protocol, I think that will depend what you want to > achieve. Any string will be easy to parse with Pharo's regex and trigger > the approriate methods. Pharo also have Annoucements, think of it as an > event system that awaits to be triggered by an event, usually a Pharo event > but I see no reason why it cant listen to external events either. > > I do not think you will need a middle application , a servel client > relation shipe should be more than enough. > > With my Atlas bridge which is a Pharo library that allows you to use > Python libraries I did a neat trick with Pharo that it already communicated > with Python via sockets, sending python commands but also Python could > communicate back errors , then Pharo would trigger the debugger, display > the python error inside the Pharo debugger and the debugger would pop up on > the exact pharo command that send the faulty python code. You could then > change the pharo command on the spot and it was resent and python continued > like the error never happened to retain the all important live coding > workflow. > > I created a tiny protocol to difirentia incoming messages talking about > errors from the ones returning python varriable values. Something stupid > like "pythonError: blah blah" but it got the job done > > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 10:07 PM Manuel Leuenberger < > leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Is there any support from the VM/Application package to add custom URI >> schemes to listen to from within Pharo? I would like to have a hyperlink >> like âpharo://send?data=fancypantsâ in an arbitrary document that, when >> clicked, switches to Pharo and calls a hook I can register. Could someone >> give me a hint how to achieve that, or do I have to build a little bridge >> application that handles the scheme registration and talks with Pharo >> through another channel? Currently, I only need this for OS X. >> >> Cheers, >> Manuel >> >> > >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by stephan

On 12-10-17 08:30, Markus Stumptner wrote: > Just to lead this back to the original question.Â What you say is > undoubtedly true.Â It is not, however, necessarily something that a > beginner will understand or be able to share in. That is a very important point. It also explains a lot of why we are missing certain things that developers coming from other environments take for granted: they simply provide less value to experienced smalltalkers. And that is indeed a barrier to entry. I remember sharply my first looking at squeak, and just not understanding how I could create a new class or method in a browser. Another was that I have been programming in seaside for a year without using senders and implementers. Pair programming for an hour with Philippe Marschall showed me so much invisible/hidden functionality. Other (mainstream) environments don't provide the immediate feedback of navigating, inspecting and manipulating the whole environment, and therefore newcomers have no appropriate expectations (internal model), and are clueless on what they are able to do in Pharo. Combined with the lack of systematic visual clues and the high density of the class library that makes it not easy to learn. Stephan

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

That's definetly not a wrong view point, but neither is python's , its all about context. Who you are ? What you want do ? What live coding means to you ? How you want to use it ? How much you want to use it? etc If you want to do Pharo coding the pharo way , then Pharo is your No1 choice, but if you want to Pharo coding the python way , Python is your No1 choice and etc. Thus I never pick sides in language wars , I am participating merely to find things I do not know. Like I just found about become in the VM list, though I still wait for enumarion of classes and reified frame stacks to be explained as well. I am here to learn as much I am here to teach. Well ok , more likely to learn :D For example messages vs method calls. What happens if method calls are executing by reference, does that make them cross message territory?. Meaning you use a name to hide the reference to an object of a method. You change the reference to the method but without changing the name of the call. Or what happens when you extend the MethodObject to cross message territory, is this still "bastardised OOP" or Alan's Keay great regret of naming it "OOP" ? OR is it smalltalkish OOP in python , or is it something more ? Those question do fascinate me.Languages are so fluid, its like clay in our hands. We live in very exciting times. On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 11:08 AM Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2017-10-12 9:28 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > >> >> >> >>> This is what Smalltalk gives you for free. >>> >> Sorrry for being rude but I wll use the two usually heavily annoying >> word, at least for me :D >> >> It depends >> >> See there is a problem for Python here. Ideology. >> >> The zen of python has been both a joke a serious mantra in the python >> world . Its a joke because its obviously oversimplify decision making in >> such a complex subject as language designe but is serious because it >> clearly illustrates the philosophy of its creator, Guido van Rossum. >> >> https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ >> >> Guido is not any less of a rock star to Pythoners than Alan Kay is for >> Smalltalkers. The zen has become so popular that is even included in python >> implementation and can be fetched as the link says using the "import this" >> in any implementation of Python. It's the very sould of python as messages >> and objects are the very soul of Smalltalk. >> >> So the problem here is that a live coding enviroment brakes the second >> rule. "explicit is better than implicit". Because live coding in Pharo and >> Smaltalk is about replacing old instances with new while keeping the state >> it non the less an implicit behavior and especially become is a no go >> scenario for python because not only replaces references to an object it >> also breaks the references to the other object. Of course the old object is >> garbage collected and RIP. Python follows this rule very strictly. >> >> Thus means that not only that Python will not offer a live coding >> enviroment in the future as the basis of its implementation . It means it >> does not want to. It may offer it as part of its extensive library. >> >> That also leads us to the inescapable conclusion that nothing comes free, >> everything has a cost. Because there will be scenarios you dont want to >> lose your old instances or not affect them at all and instead affect only >> the classes or maybe you dont even want to do that and want to do something >> else. >> > > > Hm, we have our own Pharo Zen, which includes a > Explicit is better than implicit. > So we are violating our own (zen)rules :) > > in my point of view, live or interactive coding has not much to do with > explicit or implicit program code. > >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Nicolai Hess

2017-10-12 9:28 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > > > >> This is what Smalltalk gives you for free. >> > Sorrry for being rude but I wll use the two usually heavily annoying word, > at least for me :D > > It depends > > See there is a problem for Python here. Ideology. > > The zen of python has been both a joke a serious mantra in the python > world . Its a joke because its obviously oversimplify decision making in > such a complex subject as language designe but is serious because it > clearly illustrates the philosophy of its creator, Guido van Rossum. > > https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ > > Guido is not any less of a rock star to Pythoners than Alan Kay is for > Smalltalkers. The zen has become so popular that is even included in python > implementation and can be fetched as the link says using the "import this" > in any implementation of Python. It's the very sould of python as messages > and objects are the very soul of Smalltalk. > > So the problem here is that a live coding enviroment brakes the second > rule. "explicit is better than implicit". Because live coding in Pharo and > Smaltalk is about replacing old instances with new while keeping the state > it non the less an implicit behavior and especially become is a no go > scenario for python because not only replaces references to an object it > also breaks the references to the other object. Of course the old object is > garbage collected and RIP. Python follows this rule very strictly. > > Thus means that not only that Python will not offer a live coding > enviroment in the future as the basis of its implementation . It means it > does not want to. It may offer it as part of its extensive library. > > That also leads us to the inescapable conclusion that nothing comes free, > everything has a cost. Because there will be scenarios you dont want to > lose your old instances or not affect them at all and instead affect only > the classes or maybe you dont even want to do that and want to do something > else. > Hm, we have our own Pharo Zen, which includes a Explicit is better than implicit. So we are violating our own (zen)rules :) in my point of view, live or interactive coding has not much to do with explicit or implicit program code.

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

"one of the reasons that Smalltalk historically has been view as insular, living in its own world avoid using non-Smalltalk libraries - because the lose of live coding here is a big impact." I would not say that Smalltalk is viewed as insular. I would say that Smallalk is not viewed at all period. Pharo wise the people who introduced to Pharo have been impressed by it. The same way most Pharoers prefer pharo libraries to c libraries via UFFI , applies to python coders as well. You think a python coder is eager to leave the comforts of his language, think again. In both communities its user with either C experience or motivated to learn C for personal reasons that use the FFIs or other means to import C code. Is it an accident that 99% of C wrapped code libraries for Python are existing C projects ? Some existing for decades and predating Python. A pure Python developers will be as unlikely to use the FFI as a Pharo developer, and by developers I mean users not the people who actually develop Pharo. So no there is nothing wrong with Smalltalk and Smallalk works with C just fine. Python's C API gained quickly reputation among the C people of being easy to us so Python became the go to language for scripting C. This is also why Python offered embeding, because back then Python was slooowwww. This led Guido to claim that Python may be a great choice for scripting C project but choice for replacing high performance code. He did not even intended the language to target anything else than scriptin. Nonetheless that did not stop the community from pop up like mushrooms high performance libraries to that extend that nowdays Python is regarded as the second best choice for high performance computing after C/C++ which if you think about it sounds kinda insane but non the less wrapped optimised C python libraries can easily outperform non optimised C/C++ code. An example being the emarashing truth that Python strings are faster than C++ strings which forces C++ coders to use an external library that optimised them called Boost. So the real irony is that back then embeding Python was recommended, nowdays embdeding Python is frown upon. Instead now its recommended to brake your C project to a library wrapped for Python and import it to Python. Its fascinating to see something that started so humble become so ambitious but that is true power of the community and this is also the true power of Pharo. You can let this misconceptions get in the way and think small like "Python/Pharo cannot do this, or is hard to do" or you can shut up (something I find hard to do) and just do it. As I said , we use only 0.0000001% of the potential of any language out there.

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Custom URI scheme for Pharo

by Manuel Leuenberger

Sure, a system call out would be nicest way to register a handler. Unfortunately, registering custom URI schemes seems to be completely different on every platform, as well as how they receive an activation event. OS X uses a plist, Windows a registry entry, for Linux depends on the distro. So I went for a minimal solution. But it should be doable to provide a platform-aware package that takes case of the installation. > On 12 Oct 2017, at 09:34, Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > Ok, I see. Building a native app and interfacing it from pharo is the most reliable version. I was just thinking that having a system call out it might be easier to make it cross-platform. I would be interested to have that available for all platforms. > > Norbert > > Am 12.10.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Manuel Leuenberger <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch <mailto:leuenberger@inf.unibe.ch>>: > >> That's what I did. Only I used a native Objective-C app, as it provides a simple API to register to the events and will even be started if it's not running yet. >> >> Am 12.10.2017 08:50 schrieb Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name <mailto:norbert@hartl.name>>: >> I think all you need is to do a system call out to the OS in order to register your scheme. For Mac OS it would be sonething like >> >> >> https://superuser.com/questions/548119/how-do-i-configure-custom-url-handle… <https://superuser.com/questions/548119/how-do-i-configure-custom-url-handle…> >> >> And then you can see if it is what you want. Custom handlers associate a url scheme to an application binary. Iâm not sure you can use an image with it. So I would register a shell script and handle the adoption in the script. >> >> Does that help? >> >> Norbert >> >> Am 10.10.2017 um 21:06 schrieb Manuel Leuenberger <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch <mailto:leuenberger@inf.unibe.ch>>: >> >> Hi, >> >> Is there any support from the VM/Application package to add custom URI schemes to listen to from within Pharo? I would like to have a hyperlink like âpharo://send?data=fancypantsâ in an arbitrary document that, when clicked, switches to Pharo and calls a hook I can register. Could someone give me a hint how to achieve that, or do I have to build a little bridge application that handles the scheme registration and talks with Pharo through another channel? Currently, I only need this for OS X. >> >> Cheers, >> Manuel >> >>

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Ann] PharoLauncher v1.0.1 released!

by Christophe Demarey

Hi Vitor, > Le 11 oct. 2017 Ã 13:44, Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> a Ã©crit : > > Hi Christophe, > > Yes, but: > 1- I canât execute it if I donât have administrative rights > ok. That the point I missed. I think I will add a zip file with PharoLauncher for windows for user like you not having admin rights. > âââI have tried with the provided link. Before I get to the installation directory choice, windows prompt me an error telling me I must be an admin. It is probably some windows policy for all exe files, I know it is possible to bypass this as some applications do (Intellij for example), but it is usually easier to provide a zip; > > > <image.png> > > 2- 7-Zip can open this executable as it were a zip file, thatâs how I manage to install Pharo Launcher. I need to think on the best way to handle that. Regards, Christophe.

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Custom URI scheme for Pharo

by Norbert Hartl

Ok, I see. Building a native app and interfacing it from pharo is the most reliable version. I was just thinking that having a system call out it might be easier to make it cross-platform. I would be interested to have that available for all platforms. Norbert > Am 12.10.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Manuel Leuenberger <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch>: > > That's what I did. Only I used a native Objective-C app, as it provides a simple API to register to the events and will even be started if it's not running yet. > > Am 12.10.2017 08:50 schrieb Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: > I think all you need is to do a system call out to the OS in order to register your scheme. For Mac OS it would be sonething like > > > https://superuser.com/questions/548119/how-do-i-configure-custom-url-handle… > > And then you can see if it is what you want. Custom handlers associate a url scheme to an application binary. Iâm not sure you can use an image with it. So I would register a shell script and handle the adoption in the script. > > Does that help? > > Norbert > > Am 10.10.2017 um 21:06 schrieb Manuel Leuenberger <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch>: > > Hi, > > Is there any support from the VM/Application package to add custom URI schemes to listen to from within Pharo? I would like to have a hyperlink like âpharo://send?data=fancypantsâ in an arbitrary document that, when clicked, switches to Pharo and calls a hook I can register. Could someone give me a hint how to achieve that, or do I have to build a little bridge application that handles the scheme registration and talks with Pharo through another channel? Currently, I only need this for OS X. > > Cheers, > Manuel > >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

> This is what Smalltalk gives you for free. > Sorrry for being rude but I wll use the two usually heavily annoying word, at least for me :D It depends See there is a problem for Python here. Ideology. The zen of python has been both a joke a serious mantra in the python world . Its a joke because its obviously oversimplify decision making in such a complex subject as language designe but is serious because it clearly illustrates the philosophy of its creator, Guido van Rossum. https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/ Guido is not any less of a rock star to Pythoners than Alan Kay is for Smalltalkers. The zen has become so popular that is even included in python implementation and can be fetched as the link says using the "import this" in any implementation of Python. It's the very sould of python as messages and objects are the very soul of Smalltalk. So the problem here is that a live coding enviroment brakes the second rule. "explicit is better than implicit". Because live coding in Pharo and Smaltalk is about replacing old instances with new while keeping the state it non the less an implicit behavior and especially become is a no go scenario for python because not only replaces references to an object it also breaks the references to the other object. Of course the old object is garbage collected and RIP. Python follows this rule very strictly. Thus means that not only that Python will not offer a live coding enviroment in the future as the basis of its implementation . It means it does not want to. It may offer it as part of its extensive library. That also leads us to the inescapable conclusion that nothing comes free, everything has a cost. Because there will be scenarios you dont want to lose your old instances or not affect them at all and instead affect only the classes or maybe you dont even want to do that and want to do something else. > So while Python has the flexibility for you to program such a system > yourself, you don't get it for free like Smalltalk. > > >> So it does have a wide application. Python can give you back the >> references to and from an object (via gc module) but the problem is that >> when an object is created its already referenced by many internal stuff so >> it can get messy soon. >> > > Smalltalk handles this for free. You need #become: > https://gbracha.blogspot.com.au/2009/07/miracle-of-become.html > Note one of the comments links to user code that apparently does the same > thing in Python. But again this is Python "allows" you to, not "Python" > gives it to you, but it could be good enough for you. > > First the python example is not an actual become the way I understand it, because not only it does not change the references to the object , it exchanges only the variables not the methods http://wargle.blogspot.gr/2009/07/smalltalks-become-in-python.html __CLASS__ is reference to the class object. __DICT__ is a reference to the instance object dictionary contains basically the names of the variables but not references to the methods themselves . Which means this wont work for live coding. His example works because both classes share the same methods with same code in them but we know this is the polar opposite of live coding. You can get references to the modified methods using this code my_class_ref = (globals()[self.__class__.__name__]) found_methods=[eval("my_class_ref()." + entry,{'my_class_ref':my_class_ref}) for entry in dir(my_class_ref()) if eval("type(my_class_ref()." + entry + ").__name__",{'my_class_ref':my_class_ref}) == 'method'] Globals is used to fetch the reference to the class object. eval is used because names are passed as strings of course and basically eval executes a string as a collection of python commands and returns its value. In this case the value is a reference to an object, a method object. Dir returns all names , including both variables and methods, instance and class, including all superclasses. You do then something similar to get the old methods , and then you iterate checking the names and replacing the references with simple assignments. You end up with a become that is I would say around , if I brake down the list comprehension to multiple lines, 20 lines of code. It wont be still a Smalltalk become but it will support live coding and live replacement of instance objects. > Plus Python is not exactly a high performance language , >> > > We now have this for improved performance... > https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01152610/file/partialReadBarrier.pdf > > Here come the two ugly words "it depends" See what the python becomes does is essentially better than the smalltalk becomes. I know its hard to not throw tomatoes at me but if you take a closer look at the Elito's paper you linked you will see why. Python solution really becomes an object to another because its swaps its contents and not the entity of the object, this includes variables and methods and the class it points to. By entity here I mean its place in memory and by you I mean the person implementing the VM. In Smalltalk becomes is not really become but rather replaceReferences , because it brakes the references to the object and then replace them with references to another object. Unfortunately this creates problems because you have to find to references to the objects and that comes with a cost if thousands of things reference it. Hence why Eliot had to optimise this. But python solution has no cost because you dont have to change the references to the object. And references to the members of an object (variables and methods) have to pass through the reference to the object itself. So python in this cases does not have to optimise,because it deals with a lot less references.. Smalltalk has to. Why Smalltalk does it this way, I do not know , this is VM territory and clearly Eliot outranks me to a great degree on the subject of VM design but I am sure there is a technical reason. > unless you use third party libraries focusing on performance (basically C >> libraries wrapped for Python). >> > > And how does such C libraries impact your live coding? Its not longer > turtles all the way down (or its turtles walking off a cliff) > Of course, the same applies for FFI with Pharo, and one of the reasons > that Smalltalk historically has been view as insular, living in its own > world avoid using non-Smalltalk libraries - because the lose of live coding > here is a big impact. > > cheers -ben > > Sorry I cannot resist :D It depends Technically speaking your are wrong not only for Python but also for Pharo too. The reason being that even in the case of imported c functions they are wrapped inside objects. So it is indeed turtles all the way down. At least to the function level. The arguments passed to the c functions itself are also objects, the access to the memory also objects, pointers are also objects. C data types also object. Of course you need VM primitives to make the actual calls but those are wrapped into objects. So yes the room is full of turtles and there is no escape for you :D Python goes an extra step with its Python C API. This is an API used to build a DLL that is compatibe with Python. Essentially Python then can import this DLL as if it was a python source code file and use it as such. Most of the Python third party libraries use this approach. Cython also uses this approach too. The API forces you to use PyObject which is a C function that wraps a C function around a Python object. So when you access it from Python its now an object. Also remember that in Python , python functions are object too. So there is no escape. I have no idea how Pharo VM does this, I know it supports plugins in a similar function and I suspect that it forces you to wrap then in Smalltalk objects at least at bytecode level but no clue if that is the actual case. Again the experts can jump in and enlighten us. Of course wrapping the C function to be called as an object does not mean that you will wrap all the functions called by the C function. If those C functions are not meant to be used by the user then they wont be objects but they will also not be accessible. Always talking about Python C API. Talking about FFI, whether Pharo (UFFI) or Python (ctypes) there is no way around object creation that I am aware of. So you cannot avoid objects even if you want to. Of couse those object does not necessarily mean they offer you all your usual comfort , they may come with some small letter disclaimers but then we go back to the never ending "it depends" rabbit hole. > > >> In my case its easy to do because I care about live coding my own project >> and do not care about code outside of it, because I wont be changing it >> anyway. But if I had to do this the Pharo way , providing a full live >> enviroment it would be easy because I would have to find a mechanism to >> accomodate for tons of Python code that does not follow live coding >> standards by a long margin. So my goal is not to come up with full blown >> live coding enviroment like Pharo does, that is simply not possible because >> there is like a ton of python code out there and I am sure there so many >> scenarios that live coding in python can go wrong that I am not even aware >> of. But if live code is only for my code and my code alone , I dont think I >> will have any major issues. Afterall even when I use Pharo I use live >> coding strictly for my code and rarely touch the enviroment with the >> exception of once messing with UI theme classes. >> >> But then again I am so new to this that at any point I may come up for a >> solution about this too, who knows :) >> >> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 7:05 PM Pierce Ng <pierce(a)samadhiweb.com> wrote: >> >>> On Sat, Oct 07, 2017 at 01:41:17AM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: >>> > execution. Hence live coding, the Python VM replaces objects lively. >>> Python >>> > can also compile any size of code including individual methods. >>> > That happens with one line of code importlib.reload(mymodule) >>> >>> AFAIK in Python when you modify and reload source, existing instances >>> are not >>> "reshaped" to the modified code. Not live enough. Of course with Python >>> objects >>> it is easy to add per-instance inst-vars, but still this needs to be >>> scripted >>> and doesn't come free with the programming environment. >>> >>> Pierce >>> >>>

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Custom URI scheme for Pharo

by Manuel Leuenberger

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Custom URI scheme for Pharo

by Norbert Hartl

I think all you need is to do a system call out to the OS in order to register your scheme. For Mac OS it would be sonething like https://superuser.com/questions/548119/how-do-i-configure-custom-url-handle… And then you can see if it is what you want. Custom handlers associate a url scheme to an application binary. Iâm not sure you can use an image with it. So I would register a shell script and handle the adoption in the script. Does that help? Norbert > Am 10.10.2017 um 21:06 schrieb Manuel Leuenberger <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch>: > > Hi, > > Is there any support from the VM/Application package to add custom URI schemes to listen to from within Pharo? I would like to have a hyperlink like âpharo://send?data=fancypantsâ in an arbitrary document that, when clicked, switches to Pharo and calls a hook I can register. Could someone give me a hint how to achieve that, or do I have to build a little bridge application that handles the scheme registration and talks with Pharo through another channel? Currently, I only need this for OS X. > > Cheers, > Manuel >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Markus Stumptner

Just to lead this back to the original question.Â What you say is undoubtedly true.Â It is not, however, necessarily something that a beginner will understand or be able to share in.Â So, to a certain degree this may be a trap caused by having the excellent environment.Â The newbie who is not used to it and tries to get somehow organised before diving in will be scared off. (I do realise that this is a matter of the time being available, but the fact remains that people coming from the outside may be held back this apparent lack of information, even though it is only a lack of information external to the image. It's the difference between the converted who are already going with the flow and those who want to dip a toe into the water.) On 12/10/17 01:09, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas wrote: > > The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. For me seems > pretty suboptimal compared to live environment with code browser and > GT-Spotter. Regarding the comment on Medium, it also took me little to > find #raisedTo:, so the millage can vary. What I was missing was > proper books for particular domains, but Pharo books are covering > that. I don't know if a Q&A site could improve search-ability for > newbies (certainly you can find little stuff in Stack Overflow). > > My bet is about trying to create more "end user" tools (Grafoscopio is > kind of this), besides tools for developers. There is a broad > community of people who can be active contributors and members of the > community, welcome Pharo and live coding a lot and don't complain that > much about stuff that is not already pretty similar to what they > already know (being that only English MOOC or online static html docs). > > Cheers, > > Offray > > > On 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: >> for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to have your >> entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has serious issues with >> code organisation and I find the lack of namespaces quite >> inconvenient. You have to be careful how to name your classes which >> does not sound to me very OOP friendly. >> >> Also the IDE does not handle spaggetification very well, sure you can >> find implementors , senders etc but if the execution chain is complex >> , welcome to spaggeti hell. But that is a problem with most other >> IDEs if not all as well. Problem is in this case that we have the >> very good rule of using sort methods which multiplies this problem >> and makes navigation even harder. Code becomes much easier to read >> per method and messages but much harder to understand in a bird eye view. >> >> Some of that pain has been aleviated with the introduction of >> GTSpotter which I have praised quite a lot and I will continue to do >> so. But yeah there are more needed to be done in the department to >> make Pharo code navigation a more comfortable task. >> >> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor Medina Cruz >> <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com <mailto:vitormcruz@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a >> fantastic way to explore the class library. If you find a >> class or method that isnât well documented, write a comment >> and send a change request. Stef told me this ages ago. I >> might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking >> system). >> >> >> I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion made by >> Richard: >> https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much-harder-to-find-anythin… >> >> My 2 cents. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich >> <jpfersich(a)gmail.com <mailto:jpfersich@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido >> <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com >> <mailto:horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>> wrote: >> > >> > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on >> this. Personally, I >> > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, >> so as to keep it >> > current) reference page for the class library, something >> that developers can >> > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power >> of Pharo comes >> > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible >> as possible to >> > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). >> > >> > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is >> very inefficient. >> > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes >> and methods are >> > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark >> which is just barely >> > useful). >> > >> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a >> fantastic way to explore the class library. If you find a >> class or method that isnât well documented, write a comment >> and send a change request. Stef told me this ages ago. I >> might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking >> system). >> >> > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy >> to do. In fact, >> > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a >> real obstacle to >> > Pharo acceptance. >> > >> > >> > >> > horrido wrote >> >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the >> following paragraph: >> >> >> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they >> are rather >> >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not >> willing to adapt to >> >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation >> (circa >> >> 1980â1990), >> >> people didnât have a problem with trying different >> technologies. Thatâs >> >> why >> >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after >> I had retired >> >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and >> FORTRAN scientific >> >> programming. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >> >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >> >> >> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >> >> >> >>> > wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >> >>>> >> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time >> Iâve checked >> >>>> some >> >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and >> now Pharo. Of >> >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, >> official programming >> >>>> guide >> >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer >> expects from a >> >>>> language. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >> >>>> >> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back >> with: >> >>>> >> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference >> documentation for >> >>>> the >> >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for >> Python >> >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >> <https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html%29*> >> >>>> >> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library >> reference, not >> >>>> even >> >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this >> complaint? >> >>> >> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in >> that a running >> >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ >> documentation (class, >> >>> method, >> >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable >> examples in a very >> >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but >> this is actually >> >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >> >>> >> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and >> articles that take >> >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >> >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >> >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, >> http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and many >> >>> more. >> >>> >> >>>> Thanks. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Sent from: >> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >>>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Sent from: >> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Sent from: >> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > >> >> >

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Update of ConfigurationOfGlorp

by Alistair Grant

On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 09:50:46PM +0200, Herby Voj????k wrote: > stephan wrote: > >On 11-10-17 20:33, Herby Voj????k wrote: > >>127 is general, is not sqlite-specific. Fixes any case where primary > >>key is not primitive and has converter. > > > >Should 127 and 129 be merged first, and should current development be > >promoted to release? And why is 128 missing? > > > >Stephan > > > > > > 129 is from different author, who skipped upload of its 127 and 128 > (probably intermediates). > > 127 is mine, fixes IMO overoptimized case for DirectMapping which > unlike its superclass (thus all the other mappings as there is no > other specialization), stopped converting primary keys to db value in > fk->pk relationships. 129 is mine. 129 is dated July 2016 while 127 is dated August 2017, which I guess accounts for why I based 129 on 126. On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 11:31:17AM +0200, stephan wrote: > On 06-10-17 17:22, Herby Voj????k wrote: > >Any chance of incorporating fixes 127 / 129? > > Sure, as soon as someone tells me they are safe to > add. I am just testing Glorp with P3 and Postgres now, > and don't have the capacity to verify these changes > other than by just reading the delta. > > Stephan 129 has been available since July 2016 and was promoted to #development by Pierce in January 2017. I've been using it without any problems since I submitted it in July 2016. Cheers, Alistair

Oct. 12, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Custom URI scheme for Pharo

by Manuel Leuenberger

Sounds like a nice setup you got there :). I want to integrate documents displayed in the system viewer, as they cannot be displayed within Pharo (Web, PDF, â¦). So hyperlinking is the only way I see to get something close. I created a little demo where I injected hyperlinks in a PDF like âpharo://click?whatever=youwant' <pharo://click?whatever=youwant'>. When you click them, a little Objective-C app catches the OS event and forwards it to an HTTP server running in Pharo. So I can do things like this: https://youtu.be/CR_scZSDf3s <https://youtu.be/CR_scZSDf3s> > On 11 Oct 2017, at 00:24, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I think I remember this disussed before. > By talking with Pharo I assume here about another program talking to Pharo ? Possible not wrriten in Pharo ? > > If thats the case then you can use whatever IPC works better for your needs. If the communication will be remotely I recommend sockets, for fast local communication I recommend shared memory. They are both very mature technologies , very reliable and cross platform. > > Now on the URI protocol, I think that will depend what you want to achieve. Any string will be easy to parse with Pharo's regex and trigger the approriate methods. Pharo also have Annoucements, think of it as an event system that awaits to be triggered by an event, usually a Pharo event but I see no reason why it cant listen to external events either. > > I do not think you will need a middle application , a servel client relation shipe should be more than enough. > > With my Atlas bridge which is a Pharo library that allows you to use Python libraries I did a neat trick with Pharo that it already communicated with Python via sockets, sending python commands but also Python could communicate back errors , then Pharo would trigger the debugger, display the python error inside the Pharo debugger and the debugger would pop up on the exact pharo command that send the faulty python code. You could then change the pharo command on the spot and it was resent and python continued like the error never happened to retain the all important live coding workflow. > > I created a tiny protocol to difirentia incoming messages talking about errors from the ones returning python varriable values. Something stupid like "pythonError: blah blah" but it got the job done > > > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 10:07 PM Manuel Leuenberger <leuenberger(a)inf.unibe.ch <mailto:leuenberger@inf.unibe.ch>> wrote: > Hi, > > Is there any support from the VM/Application package to add custom URI schemes to listen to from within Pharo? I would like to have a hyperlink like âpharo://send?data=fancypantsâ <> in an arbitrary document that, when clicked, switches to Pharo and calls a hook I can register. Could someone give me a hint how to achieve that, or do I have to build a little bridge application that handles the scheme registration and talks with Pharo through another channel? Currently, I only need this for OS X. > > Cheers, > Manuel >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Update of ConfigurationOfGlorp

by Herby VojÄÃk

stephan wrote: > On 11-10-17 21:50, Herby VojÄÃk wrote: > >> 129 is from different author, who skipped upload of its 127 and 128 >> (probably intermediates). >> >> 127 is mine, fixes IMO overoptimized case for DirectMapping which >> unlike its superclass (thus all the other mappings as there is no >> other specialization), stopped converting primary keys to db value in >> fk->pk relationships. > > Name: ConfigurationOfGlorp-StephanEggermont.62 > Author: StephanEggermont > Time: 11 October 2017, 10:00:05.488994 pm > UUID: a7105b9b-ac17-0d00-a62f-44e602acb0bc > Ancestors: ConfigurationOfGlorp-StephanEggermont.61 > > Patch for stable/release2/2.0.1 > > Fix error with DirectMapping primary key > not being converted to db type. > > In the metarepos, dbxtalk/glorp and dbxtalk/configurations Thank you very much, sir. :-)

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Ben Coman

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 1:08 AM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Yes sorry for not making this clear. I was wrong in this case. A module > reload will only replace class objects not instance objects. So if you > create a new instance after the reload it will have the updated version but > your old instance would not. > > I try to test something before I make a claim but in this case I failed > because I forgot the obvious. The tiny fact I was reinitialising my objects > in the python project I am currently using live coding, so of course my > instances were updating instantenously because I was in a loop that was > recreating them every few milliseconds. > > When webwarrior mentioned this it draw my supisions and I tested it > outside my code in the interpreter and it became obvious I was wrong. This > why my reply I dont claim he is wrong and I am talking about injecting > methods to old objects. > > I have no problem admitting when I am wrong but in this case maybe I was > not clear enough considering I am responsible for exploding this thread , I > hope in a good way. > > So yes its possible to do in Python but no it is not coming already > available to you, so you can restrain yourself from abandoning Pharo for > Python ;) > > Python is not there yet. I still keep the opinion that is easy to do , > method injection is just regular assignment, you cannot get any easier than > assignment but this means you have to keep track of the instances of a > class and replace their methods. > This is what Smalltalk gives you for free. > The good news is that if you replace just the methods and not the entire > object , you can keep the references to the old instance because keeping > track of the references as well would be trickier. So this way you would > not brake your references and having to rebuild them to point to a new > instance because you continue to use the old instance but with updated > methods. You can do this also with adding / removing / editing variables > and/or methods. > So while Python has the flexibility for you to program such a system yourself, you don't get it for free like Smalltalk. > So it does have a wide application. Python can give you back the > references to and from an object (via gc module) but the problem is that > when an object is created its already referenced by many internal stuff so > it can get messy soon. > Smalltalk handles this for free. You need #become: https://gbracha.blogspot.com.au/2009/07/miracle-of-become.html Note one of the comments links to user code that apparently does the same thing in Python. But again this is Python "allows" you to, not "Python" gives it to you, but it could be good enough for you. > Plus Python is not exactly a high performance language , > We now have this for improved performance... https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01152610/file/partialReadBarrier.pdf > unless you use third party libraries focusing on performance (basically C > libraries wrapped for Python). > And how does such C libraries impact your live coding? Its not longer turtles all the way down (or its turtles walking off a cliff) Of course, the same applies for FFI with Pharo, and one of the reasons that Smalltalk historically has been view as insular, living in its own world avoid using non-Smalltalk libraries - because the lose of live coding here is a big impact. cheers -ben > In my case its easy to do because I care about live coding my own project > and do not care about code outside of it, because I wont be changing it > anyway. But if I had to do this the Pharo way , providing a full live > enviroment it would be easy because I would have to find a mechanism to > accomodate for tons of Python code that does not follow live coding > standards by a long margin. So my goal is not to come up with full blown > live coding enviroment like Pharo does, that is simply not possible because > there is like a ton of python code out there and I am sure there so many > scenarios that live coding in python can go wrong that I am not even aware > of. But if live code is only for my code and my code alone , I dont think I > will have any major issues. Afterall even when I use Pharo I use live > coding strictly for my code and rarely touch the enviroment with the > exception of once messing with UI theme classes. > > But then again I am so new to this that at any point I may come up for a > solution about this too, who knows :) > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 7:05 PM Pierce Ng <pierce(a)samadhiweb.com> wrote: > >> On Sat, Oct 07, 2017 at 01:41:17AM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: >> > execution. Hence live coding, the Python VM replaces objects lively. >> Python >> > can also compile any size of code including individual methods. >> > That happens with one line of code importlib.reload(mymodule) >> >> AFAIK in Python when you modify and reload source, existing instances are >> not >> "reshaped" to the modified code. Not live enough. Of course with Python >> objects >> it is easy to add per-instance inst-vars, but still this needs to be >> scripted >> and doesn't come free with the programming environment. >> >> Pierce >> >>

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] TechTalk on Artificial Intelligence & Neural Networks

by Dimitris Chloupis

I am interested in code analysis so any guidance in this area I love it , AI related of course On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 16:12, Serge Stinckwich <serge.stinckwich(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I would like to advertise the TechTalk for colleagues of my lab. > They can join Discord using the invitation link ? > http://discord.gg/Sj2rhxn > > > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Alexandre Bergel <alexandre.bergel(a)me.com> > wrote: > > > > Dear All, > > > > A TechTalk on Artificial Intelligence is soon approaching. > > The talk will be about implementing a neural networks in Pharo. > > > > It is scheduled on Tuesday 17Oct, 2017 (5:00 PM - 7:00 PM (UTC+02:00)) > > > > I need your input. Which example to you want me to use? > > - Data manipulation, or > > - Designing a small AI for a game > > > > Please answer: > > https://twitter.com/alexbergel/status/918084438197784578 > > > > Some info about the event: > > https://association.pharo.org/event-2642664 > > https://www.facebook.com/events/133683180530368 > > > > Thanks Marcus Denker and the RMoD crew for their help in organizing it. > > > > Cheers, > > Alexandre > > > > -- > > _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: > > Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu > > ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Serge Stinckwich > UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC/UY1) > "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for > machines to execute." > http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Update of ConfigurationOfGlorp

by stephan

On 11-10-17 21:50, Herby VojÄÃk wrote: > 129 is from different author, who skipped upload of its 127 and 128 > (probably intermediates). > > 127 is mine, fixes IMO overoptimized case for DirectMapping which unlike > its superclass (thus all the other mappings as there is no other > specialization), stopped converting primary keys to db value in fk->pk > relationships. Name: ConfigurationOfGlorp-StephanEggermont.62 Author: StephanEggermont Time: 11 October 2017, 10:00:05.488994 pm UUID: a7105b9b-ac17-0d00-a62f-44e602acb0bc Ancestors: ConfigurationOfGlorp-StephanEggermont.61 Patch for stable/release2/2.0.1 Fix error with DirectMapping primary key not being converted to db type. In the metarepos, dbxtalk/glorp and dbxtalk/configurations

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Update of ConfigurationOfGlorp

by Herby VojÄÃk

stephan wrote: > On 11-10-17 20:33, Herby VojÄÃk wrote: >> 127 is general, is not sqlite-specific. Fixes any case where primary >> key is not primitive and has converter. > > Should 127 and 129 be merged first, and should current development be > promoted to release? And why is 128 missing? > > Stephan > > 129 is from different author, who skipped upload of its 127 and 128 (probably intermediates). 127 is mine, fixes IMO overoptimized case for DirectMapping which unlike its superclass (thus all the other mappings as there is no other specialization), stopped converting primary keys to db value in fk->pk relationships.

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Update of ConfigurationOfGlorp

by stephan

On 11-10-17 20:33, Herby VojÄÃk wrote: > 127 is general, is not sqlite-specific. Fixes any case where primary key > is not primitive and has converter. Should 127 and 129 be merged first, and should current development be promoted to release? And why is 128 missing? Stephan

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] X11 options on Ubuntu VM / Athens rendering problems

by Hilaire

We tested it on P6.1 64bits, and this Cairo crash seems to be gone. It may need more testing though. Is it thanks to P6.1 or the 64bits image/VM? It looks strange because it looked like a lib Cairo crash, but in the other hand the faulty C function did not appear to be called from Pharo image. What need to be done porting to P6.1, is mainly image shrinking, fix of several bugs from P6.1 impacting drgeo, working setup for linux/windows/mac. Still some job. Hilaire Le 02/10/2017 Ã 15:19, Stephane Ducasse a Ã©critÂ : > How could we help? > > > On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 9:14 PM, Hilaire<hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> wrote: >> I had situation where the system libcairo:i386 does not work with Dr.Geo[1], >> Pharo crashes with what looks like a Cairo crash! Looks like not a Pharo >> fault, but I am definitely stuck. >> >> It is problematic, it is a system (LinuxMint based) used in Geneva primary >> schools and Dr. Geo was expected to be used there:( >> >> Hilaire >> >> [1]http://forum.world.st/Cairo-related-crash-with-Dr-Geo-tt4952023.html >> >> >> Le 01/10/2017 Ã 19:50, Igor Stasenko a Ã©crit : >>> All these difficulties are good argument to get the appropriate >>> libcairo/libpng shipped with the Linux VM, as done with Windows >>> and MacOSX VM >>> >>> Nah, in my case, there's nothing that can be lableled as "Pharo fault". It >>> is definitely a linux/ubuntu ecosystem fault. - by not providing parallel >>> updates for 32 & 64 bit variant of same library. >> -- >> Dr. Geo >> http://drgeo.eu >> >> >> -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Update of ConfigurationOfGlorp

by Herby VojÄÃk

stephan wrote: > On 06-10-17 17:22, Herby VojÄÃk wrote: >> Any chance of incorporating fixes 127 / 129? > > Sure, as soon as someone tells me they are safe to > add. I am just testing Glorp with P3 and Postgres now, > and don't have the capacity to verify these changes > other than by just reading the delta. > > Stephan > > > 127 is general, is not sqlite-specific. Fixes any case where primary key is not primitive and has converter.

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Well there is a move towards Pillar for class and method commands so who knows maybe we will have that soon enough ;) There is a solution, not a great solution but it can do this. You can kinda do this via metacello and filetree, because when you export to git , it coverts class and method comments to markdown that can be viewed like online documentation . They are saved as README.md which is the standard for github. That means you can use markdown inside the class and method comments , and then convert that to HTML . Tons of markdown to html coverters out there so it would not be a problem. Of course Pharo users may not be happy to read comments in markdown but then markdown has minimal syntax so it should not be such a major issue. The real problem is the class comments itself, if you lack comments talking about automated API reference documentation sounds the least of the problems. Cannot blame developers, documentation is as much work as writting the code and I can understand that some may find it much less pleasant than I do :) I tried my best to help on the documentation department but we need more people because its an effort not only to document but also to keep the documentation updated. One of the perk working in an enviroment improving very fast, but you wont get any complain from me about this ;) On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 6:02 PM Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > Yes. I know them. I mean API docs as static files. I don't really sold on > them compared with a live system and I don't think static API docs are > critical for Pharo success. > > Cheers, > > Offray > > On 11/10/17 09:52, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > Ah and my static website was built with Pillar and Bootstrap, using > bootstrap templates was easy because Pillar supports mustache that makes > html manipulation much easier > > http://www.kilon-alios.com > > Pillar of course is not made for generating websites but itâs an awesome > Pharo library that allows for great degree of freedom so I thought , why > not ? > On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:48, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Docs are available in static online html format , at least the book I was >> working on >> >> Pharo By Example >> >> You can find those links here >> >> https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample >> >> Our documentation system , Pillar , outputs pdf , html and markdown >> files. >> >> If the book in question is built like PBE with CI of Inria where most >> Pharo related official projects are built then it should have at least pdf >> and html with online access so you can easily link to. >> >> Donât quote me on this but I think the html output of pillar generate >> links even for paragraphs you can do an even more process linking to the >> documentation. >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:40, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < >> offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: >> >>> The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. For me seems >>> pretty suboptimal compared to live environment with code browser and >>> GT-Spotter. Regarding the comment on Medium, it also took me little to find >>> #raisedTo:, so the millage can vary. What I was missing was proper books >>> for particular domains, but Pharo books are covering that. I don't know if >>> a Q&A site could improve search-ability for newbies (certainly you can find >>> little stuff in Stack Overflow). >>> >>> My bet is about trying to create more "end user" tools (Grafoscopio is >>> kind of this), besides tools for developers. There is a broad community of >>> people who can be active contributors and members of the community, welcome >>> Pharo and live coding a lot and don't complain that much about stuff that >>> is not already pretty similar to what they already know (being that only >>> English MOOC or online static html docs). >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Offray >>> >>> On 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: >>> >>> for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to have your >>> entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has serious issues with code >>> organisation and I find the lack of namespaces quite inconvenient. You have >>> to be careful how to name your classes which does not sound to me very OOP >>> friendly. >>> >>> Also the IDE does not handle spaggetification very well, sure you can >>> find implementors , senders etc but if the execution chain is complex , >>> welcome to spaggeti hell. But that is a problem with most other IDEs if not >>> all as well. Problem is in this case that we have the very good rule of >>> using sort methods which multiplies this problem and makes navigation even >>> harder. Code becomes much easier to read per method and messages but much >>> harder to understand in a bird eye view. >>> >>> Some of that pain has been aleviated with the introduction of GTSpotter >>> which I have praised quite a lot and I will continue to do so. But yeah >>> there are more needed to be done in the department to make Pharo code >>> navigation a more comfortable task. >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way >>>> to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well >>>> documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this >>>> ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >>>> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >>>> >>>> >>>> I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion made by >>>> Richard: >>>> https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much-harder-to-find-anythin… >>>> >>>> My 2 cents. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. >>>>> Personally, I >>>>> > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to >>>>> keep it >>>>> > current) reference page for the class library, something that >>>>> developers can >>>>> > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo >>>>> comes >>>>> > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as >>>>> possible to >>>>> > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). >>>>> > >>>>> > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very >>>>> inefficient. >>>>> > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and >>>>> methods are >>>>> > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is >>>>> just barely >>>>> > useful). >>>>> > >>>>> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic >>>>> way to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât >>>>> well documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me >>>>> this ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that >>>>> exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >>>>> >>>>> > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In >>>>> fact, >>>>> > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real >>>>> obstacle to >>>>> > Pharo acceptance. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > horrido wrote >>>>> >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following >>>>> paragraph: >>>>> >> >>>>> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather >>>>> >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to >>>>> adapt to >>>>> >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa >>>>> >> 1980â1990), >>>>> >> people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. >>>>> Thatâs >>>>> >> why >>>>> >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had >>>>> retired >>>>> >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN >>>>> scientific >>>>> >> programming. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>>>> >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve >>>>> checked >>>>> >>>> some >>>>> >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now >>>>> Pharo. Of >>>>> >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official >>>>> programming >>>>> >>>> guide >>>>> >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects >>>>> from a >>>>> >>>> language. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference >>>>> documentation for >>>>> >>>> the >>>>> >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python >>>>> >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, >>>>> not >>>>> >>>> even >>>>> >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a >>>>> running >>>>> >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, >>>>> >>> method, >>>>> >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a >>>>> very >>>>> >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is >>>>> actually >>>>> >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles >>>>> that take >>>>> >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >>>>> >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >>>>> >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo >>>>> and many >>>>> >>> more. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>>> >>>> Sent from: >>>>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> Sent from: >>>>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

major mistake i meant to say "providing a full live enviroment it would NOT be easy because I would have to find a mechanism to accomodate for tons of Python code that does not follow live coding standards " On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 8:08 PM Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Yes sorry for not making this clear. I was wrong in this case. A module > reload will only replace class objects not instance objects. So if you > create a new instance after the reload it will have the updated version but > your old instance would not. > > I try to test something before I make a claim but in this case I failed > because I forgot the obvious. The tiny fact I was reinitialising my objects > in the python project I am currently using live coding, so of course my > instances were updating instantenously because I was in a loop that was > recreating them every few milliseconds. > > When webwarrior mentioned this it draw my supisions and I tested it > outside my code in the interpreter and it became obvious I was wrong. This > why my reply I dont claim he is wrong and I am talking about injecting > methods to old objects. > > I have no problem admitting when I am wrong but in this case maybe I was > not clear enough considering I am responsible for exploding this thread , I > hope in a good way. > > So yes its possible to do in Python but no it is not coming already > available to you, so you can restrain yourself from abandoning Pharo for > Python ;) > > Python is not there yet. I still keep the opinion that is easy to do , > method injection is just regular assignment, you cannot get any easier than > assignment but this means you have to keep track of the instances of a > class and repace their methods. The good news is that if you replace just > the methods and not the entire object , you can keep the references to the > old instance because keeping track of the references as well would be > trickier. So this way you would not brake your references and having to > rebuild them to point to a new instance because you continue to use the old > instance but with updated methods. You can do this also with adding / > removing / editing variables and/or methods. So it does have a wide > application. Python can give you back the references to and from an object > (via gc module) but the problem is that when an object is created its > already referenced by many internal stuff so it can get messy soon. Plus > Python is not exactly a high performance language , unless you use third > party libraries focusing on performance (basically C libraries wrapped for > Python). > > In my case its easy to do because I care about live coding my own project > and do not care about code outside of it, because I wont be changing it > anyway. But if I had to do this the Pharo way , providing a full live > enviroment it would be easy because I would have to find a mechanism to > accomodate for tons of Python code that does not follow live coding > standards by a long margin. So my goal is not to come up with full blown > live coding enviroment like Pharo does, that is simply not possible because > there is like a ton of python code out there and I am sure there so many > scenarios that live coding in python can go wrong that I am not even aware > of. But if live code is only for my code and my code alone , I dont think I > will have any major issues. Afterall even when I use Pharo I use live > coding strictly for my code and rarely touch the enviroment with the > exception of once messing with UI theme classes. > > But then again I am so new to this that at any point I may come up for a > solution about this too, who knows :) > > On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 7:05 PM Pierce Ng <pierce(a)samadhiweb.com> wrote: > >> On Sat, Oct 07, 2017 at 01:41:17AM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: >> > execution. Hence live coding, the Python VM replaces objects lively. >> Python >> > can also compile any size of code including individual methods. >> > That happens with one line of code importlib.reload(mymodule) >> >> AFAIK in Python when you modify and reload source, existing instances are >> not >> "reshaped" to the modified code. Not live enough. Of course with Python >> objects >> it is easy to add per-instance inst-vars, but still this needs to be >> scripted >> and doesn't come free with the programming environment. >> >> Pierce >> >>

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Dimitris Chloupis

Yes sorry for not making this clear. I was wrong in this case. A module reload will only replace class objects not instance objects. So if you create a new instance after the reload it will have the updated version but your old instance would not. I try to test something before I make a claim but in this case I failed because I forgot the obvious. The tiny fact I was reinitialising my objects in the python project I am currently using live coding, so of course my instances were updating instantenously because I was in a loop that was recreating them every few milliseconds. When webwarrior mentioned this it draw my supisions and I tested it outside my code in the interpreter and it became obvious I was wrong. This why my reply I dont claim he is wrong and I am talking about injecting methods to old objects. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong but in this case maybe I was not clear enough considering I am responsible for exploding this thread , I hope in a good way. So yes its possible to do in Python but no it is not coming already available to you, so you can restrain yourself from abandoning Pharo for Python ;) Python is not there yet. I still keep the opinion that is easy to do , method injection is just regular assignment, you cannot get any easier than assignment but this means you have to keep track of the instances of a class and repace their methods. The good news is that if you replace just the methods and not the entire object , you can keep the references to the old instance because keeping track of the references as well would be trickier. So this way you would not brake your references and having to rebuild them to point to a new instance because you continue to use the old instance but with updated methods. You can do this also with adding / removing / editing variables and/or methods. So it does have a wide application. Python can give you back the references to and from an object (via gc module) but the problem is that when an object is created its already referenced by many internal stuff so it can get messy soon. Plus Python is not exactly a high performance language , unless you use third party libraries focusing on performance (basically C libraries wrapped for Python). In my case its easy to do because I care about live coding my own project and do not care about code outside of it, because I wont be changing it anyway. But if I had to do this the Pharo way , providing a full live enviroment it would be easy because I would have to find a mechanism to accomodate for tons of Python code that does not follow live coding standards by a long margin. So my goal is not to come up with full blown live coding enviroment like Pharo does, that is simply not possible because there is like a ton of python code out there and I am sure there so many scenarios that live coding in python can go wrong that I am not even aware of. But if live code is only for my code and my code alone , I dont think I will have any major issues. Afterall even when I use Pharo I use live coding strictly for my code and rarely touch the enviroment with the exception of once messing with UI theme classes. But then again I am so new to this that at any point I may come up for a solution about this too, who knows :) On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 7:05 PM Pierce Ng <pierce(a)samadhiweb.com> wrote: > On Sat, Oct 07, 2017 at 01:41:17AM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > execution. Hence live coding, the Python VM replaces objects lively. > Python > > can also compile any size of code including individual methods. > > That happens with one line of code importlib.reload(mymodule) > > AFAIK in Python when you modify and reload source, existing instances are > not > "reshaped" to the modified code. Not live enough. Of course with Python > objects > it is easy to add per-instance inst-vars, but still this needs to be > scripted > and doesn't come free with the programming environment. > > Pierce > >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Pierce Ng

On Sat, Oct 07, 2017 at 01:41:17AM +0000, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > execution. Hence live coding, the Python VM replaces objects lively. Python > can also compile any size of code including individual methods. > That happens with one line of code importlib.reload(mymodule) AFAIK in Python when you modify and reload source, existing instances are not "reshaped" to the modified code. Not live enough. Of course with Python objects it is easy to add per-instance inst-vars, but still this needs to be scripted and doesn't come free with the programming environment. Pierce

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Seaside for html live docs browsing seems a good idea. How do you create something like [1]?: [1] http://files.pharo.org/doc/4.0/#packageList=package.html&classList=package/… Cheers, Offray On 11/10/17 10:31, Marcus Denker wrote: > > >> On 11 Oct 2017, at 17:18, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com >> <mailto:thierry.goubier@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> What about a seaside-based system browser oriented towards code >> documentation? That would fit both paradigms: html-like reference + >> live browsing. >> >> You could even make it buzzword compliant: have a REST interface to >> documentation and code. >> >> Note how the panes in a system browser could make for a nice URI: >> just look for >> >> pharo://Kernel/Number/mathematical%20functions/raisedTo: >> >> And we could even include version numbers, etc.... >> >> pharo://6.1/Kernel/Number/mathematical%20functions/raisedTo: >> >> Not very different from the github url for the pharo project relevant >> file... >> >> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/development/src/Kernel.package/… >> > > There isÂ http://files.pharo.org/doc/, too.Â > > Marcus >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Marcus Denker

> On 11 Oct 2017, at 17:18, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > What about a seaside-based system browser oriented towards code documentation? That would fit both paradigms: html-like reference + live browsing. > > You could even make it buzzword compliant: have a REST interface to documentation and code. > > Note how the panes in a system browser could make for a nice URI: just look for > > pharo://Kernel/Number/mathematical%20functions/raisedTo: > > And we could even include version numbers, etc.... > > pharo://6.1/Kernel/Number/mathematical%20functions/raisedTo: > > Not very different from the github url for the pharo project relevant file... > > https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/development/src/Kernel.package/… <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/development/src/Kernel.package/…> > There is http://files.pharo.org/doc/ <http://files.pharo.org/doc/>, too. Marcus

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 11 Oct 2017, at 17:18, Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > What about a seaside-based system browser oriented towards code documentation? That would fit both paradigms: html-like reference + live browsing. > > You could even make it buzzword compliant: have a REST interface to documentation and code. > > Note how the panes in a system browser could make for a nice URI: just look for > > pharo://Kernel/Number/mathematical%20functions/raisedTo: > > And we could even include version numbers, etc.... > > pharo://6.1/Kernel/Number/mathematical%20functions/raisedTo: > > Not very different from the github url for the pharo project relevant file... > > https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/development/src/Kernel.package/… Indeed. Too bad there are plans to put everything in one file (booo) ;-) > Thierry > > 2017-10-11 17:01 GMT+02:00 Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com>: > Yes. I know them. I mean API docs as static files. I don't really sold on them compared with a live system and I don't think static API docs are critical for Pharo success. > > Cheers, > > Offray > > On 11/10/17 09:52, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: >> Ah and my static website was built with Pillar and Bootstrap, using bootstrap templates was easy because Pillar supports mustache that makes html manipulation much easier >> >> http://www.kilon-alios.com >> >> Pillar of course is not made for generating websites but itâs an awesome Pharo library that allows for great degree of freedom so I thought , why not ? >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:48, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Docs are available in static online html format , at least the book I was working on >> >> Pharo By Example >> >> You can find those links here >> >> https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoByExample >> >> Our documentation system , Pillar , outputs pdf , html and markdown files. >> >> If the book in question is built like PBE with CI of Inria where most Pharo related official projects are built then it should have at least pdf and html with online access so you can easily link to. >> >> Donât quote me on this but I think the html output of pillar generate links even for paragraphs you can do an even more process linking to the documentation. >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:40, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: >> The more I use Pharo, the less I use web documentation. For me seems pretty suboptimal compared to live environment with code browser and GT-Spotter. Regarding the comment on Medium, it also took me little to find #raisedTo:, so the millage can vary. What I was missing was proper books for particular domains, but Pharo books are covering that. I don't know if a Q&A site could improve search-ability for newbies (certainly you can find little stuff in Stack Overflow). >> >> My bet is about trying to create more "end user" tools (Grafoscopio is kind of this), besides tools for developers. There is a broad community of people who can be active contributors and members of the community, welcome Pharo and live coding a lot and don't complain that much about stuff that is not already pretty similar to what they already know (being that only English MOOC or online static html docs). >> >> Cheers, >> >> Offray >> >> On 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: >>> for me it is a yes and no situation, yes its very coold to have your entire system in your fingertips but Pharo has serious issues with code organisation and I find the lack of namespaces quite inconvenient. You have to be careful how to name your classes which does not sound to me very OOP friendly. >>> >>> Also the IDE does not handle spaggetification very well, sure you can find implementors , senders etc but if the execution chain is complex , welcome to spaggeti hell. But that is a problem with most other IDEs if not all as well. Problem is in this case that we have the very good rule of using sort methods which multiplies this problem and makes navigation even harder. Code becomes much easier to read per method and messages but much harder to understand in a bird eye view. >>> >>> Some of that pain has been aleviated with the introduction of GTSpotter which I have praised quite a lot and I will continue to do so. But yeah there are more needed to be done in the department to make Pharo code navigation a more comfortable task. >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >>> >>> I will reference of response of mine to a similar opinion made by Richard: https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much-harder-to-find-anythin… >>> >>> My 2 cents. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 11:59 PM, john pfersich <jpfersich(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > Interestingly, I'm getting a fair amount of pushback on this. Personally, I >>> > think it would be very helpful to have a live (updatable, so as to keep it >>> > current) reference page for the class library, something that developers can >>> > easily look up what they need. After all, most of the power of Pharo comes >>> > from the class library and we need to make it as accessible as possible to >>> > less experienced Pharoers (i.e., beginners). >>> > >>> > Exploring the class library through the System Browser is very inefficient. >>> > This is further exacerbated by the fact that many classes and methods are >>> > simply not well-documented (containing a cursory remark which is just barely >>> > useful). >>> > >>> I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I find the System Browser a fantastic way to explore the class library. If you find a class or method that isnât well documented, write a comment and send a change request. Stef told me this ages ago. I might add, if you find a bug you should write a test that exercises the bug and submit it on fogbugz (the bug tracking system). >>> >>> > I realize that creating a live reference page is not easy to do. In fact, >>> > it's a lot of work. But the absence of such a page is a real obstacle to >>> > Pharo acceptance. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > horrido wrote >>> >> Thanks. I gave your answer verbatim. I also added the following paragraph: >>> >> >>> >> The problem I find with todayâs developers is that they are rather >>> >> closed-minded. They are rigid and inflexible, and not willing to adapt to >>> >> new and different ways of doing things. In my generation (circa >>> >> 1980â1990), >>> >> people didnât have a problem with trying different technologies. Thatâs >>> >> why >>> >> I had no issue with learning Smalltalk 10 years ago, after I had retired >>> >> from a 20-year-long career in C systems programming and FORTRAN scientific >>> >> programming. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>> >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at 14:54, horrido < >>> >> >>> >>> horrido.hobbies@ >>> >> >>> >>> > wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I received this comment from someone who complained: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> *What about the lack of documentation? From time to time Iâve checked >>> >>>> some >>> >>>> SmallTalk implementations like Squeak, GNU-Smalltalk and now Pharo. Of >>> >>>> these, only GNU-SmallTalk appears to have a free, official programming >>> >>>> guide >>> >>>> and core library reference that any serious programmer expects from a >>> >>>> language. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I pointed to Pharo's documentation but then he came back with: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> *Then show me a link of the free, maintained reference documentation for >>> >>>> the >>> >>>> classes that form âthe core libraryâ, like this one for Python >>> >>>> (https://docs.python.org/3/library/index.html)* >>> >>>> >>> >>>> It's true, most Smalltalks do not have a core library reference, not >>> >>>> even >>> >>>> VisualWorks! So what is the proper response to this complaint? >>> >>> >>> >>> The first answer is that Pharo/Smalltalk is unique in that a running >>> >>> system/IDE contains _all_ source code, _all_ documentation (class, >>> >>> method, >>> >>> help, tutorial), _all_ unit tests and _all_ runnable examples in a very >>> >>> easy, accessible way. It takes some getting used to, but this is actually >>> >>> better and much more powerful than any alternative. >>> >>> >>> >>> The second answer is that there are lots of books and articles that take >>> >>> the classic/structured book/paper approach. There is >>> >>> http://books.pharo.org, http://themoosebook.org, >>> >>> http://book.seaside.st/book, http://medium.com/concerning-pharo and many >>> >>> more. >>> >>> >>> >>>> Thanks. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> >>>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> > >>> >>> >> > >

Oct. 11, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Error loading Seaside Gettext support

by Trussardi Dario Romano

Excuse me...... it's for Seaside problematic .... and relative mails ... Sorry, Dario > Ciao, >> Ciao, >> >> i load correctly the Gettext support into: Pharo 6.1-64 Latest update: #60510 >> >> In the image was load the Seaside 3.2 >> Now i do: >> >> (ConfigurationOfSeaside3 project version: #stable ) >> load: #( 'Seaside-Gettext-Core' 'Seaside-Gettext-Examples'). >> >> The system erase the error: >> NaturalLanguageTranslator class(Object)>>doesNotUnderstand: #domainRegistered: >> >> TextDomainManager class>>registerDomain: >> [ self registerDomain: domainName ] in TextDomainManager class>>domainInfoFor: in Block: [ self registerDomain: domainName ] >> [ self at: key put: aBlock value ] in Dictionary>>at:ifAbsentPut: in Block: [ self at: key put: aBlock value ] >> Dictionary>>at:ifAbsent: >> Dictionary>>at:ifAbsentPut: >> TextDomainManager class>>domainInfoFor: >> TextDomainManager class>>registerCategoryPrefix:domain: >> WAGettextExample class>>register >> WAGettextExample class>>initialize >> Some considerations ? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Dario > After the error i restart the image and the: WAGettextExample class>>initialize works well. > > Now i don't understand what i need to do for create the relative .pot file. > > The WAGettextExample export method reference the: WAGetTextExporter but is not in the system. > > The GetTextExporter exportTemplate create only the pharo.pot file ( ... the relative pharo.mo works fine ). > > > Thanks for considerations, > > Dario >

Oct. 11, 2017