December 2015 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by stepharo

why don't you spend the time to write such mails into - writing tutorial or - just improving class comments of the well-known classs (such as set, dictionary, booleans, strings), - create videos you would have already an impact. Now you are shouting in the desert and people will just put you on their black list. Stef

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Hilaire

Hello, This is free software Darwin evolution :) If you like Pharo Smalltalk, and it looks like you like it, you need to find your place in the Pharo ecosystem and see where you can add value to the ecosystem. You seem to like advocating, so please continue! This is marketing for Pharo for free, and it can just add visibility or attraction to Pharo, and hopefully help to grow the community. Just be sure to use the right arguments. You like to punch from time to time in the Pharo community, for me it is ok, after all we should have thick skin and strong arguments when using Pharo and not a main stream language About direction of the Pharo development, I guess you already know the free software golden rule expressed by L. Torvalds: "Talk is cheap. Show me the code." So without revealing your own code contribution, your preach on development orientation are useless and you should not waste your time there, or at least not too much. I am myself not always happy with Pharo direction, but as a minor contributor I don't fell legitimate to punch that much, and I adapt myself. Continue on advocating! You will have more fun there. You could write in detail about success stories with Pharo. What about starting with Dr. Geo (http://drgeo.eu) and writing an article about it, I need help to get visibility, especially I am not a native English speaker. Thanks Hilaire Le 13/12/2015 06:10, horrido a Ã©crit : > Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying to > steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising > direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation is > objective, *not defamatory*. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I > look for possible solutions. > > It is precisely because of limited funding and influence that a group such > as yours should be more creative and openminded in how to advance the cause > of Smalltalk. For example, I have no resources whatsoever, but in my own > way, I've tried hard to advocate for Smalltalk using a marketing strategy. I > use whatever is available to me /for free/. I publish articles that are > sometimes controversial, but always thought-provoking. *They draw attention > to Smalltalk.* They spur debate. Ultimately, the goal is to get people to > /think/ about Smalltalk. Otherwise, it gets forgotten. Out of sight, out of > mind. > > Okay, it's good that Pharo is being taught in some schools. But how many > schools are there in the world, and how many are NOT teaching Pharo? Look at > the United States and Canada, for example. Despite the evangelizing efforts > so far, the needle hasn't moved for Smalltalk. At least, not in any way > measurable to the public. At some point, one has to ask, "is this working?", > and if not, "how can we do things differently?" Why are you afraid to ask > these questions? > > Smalltalk is not a religion. The goal is not to conquer all programmers, nor > all programming tasks. But increasing the breadth of applicability so that > Smalltalk benefits more of the IT world is surely a worthy ambition. *Right > now, it's barely a blip on the radar of most businesses.* That can't be a > satisfactory state of affairs. > > In terms of this discussion, yes, size is everything. Smalltalk's library > ecosystem is demonstrably weak. (I dare you to ask me to provide an > example.) Why is this okay? A strong ecosystem would make Smalltalk/Pharo > much more useful to many more people in the IT world. > > And how do you build a strong ecosystem? By growing the user community > sufficiently large. We've seen this scenario play out over and over and over > again...with Python...with Java...with JavaScript...with Scala...and soon > with Go. That's why popularity matters. > > Please, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm trying to change the direction of an > ocean liner because I believe it's not moving in the right direction. > Obviously, this is a monumental task. > > One last point: If Stephan's Wardley maps have been used by Pharo recently, > then I submit they haven't had the desired effects. Unless Pharo's status > quo *is* the desired outcome, in which case, I find that sad. > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866783.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Hilaire

Le 12/12/2015 12:51, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well. > > On Android its still a work in progress but its improving WIP but you can already get it working Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.drgeo.android Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by horrido

Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying to steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation is objective, *not defamatory*. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I look for possible solutions. It is precisely because of limited funding and influence that a group such as yours should be more creative and openminded in how to advance the cause of Smalltalk. For example, I have no resources whatsoever, but in my own way, I've tried hard to advocate for Smalltalk using a marketing strategy. I use whatever is available to me /for free/. I publish articles that are sometimes controversial, but always thought-provoking. *They draw attention to Smalltalk.* They spur debate. Ultimately, the goal is to get people to /think/ about Smalltalk. Otherwise, it gets forgotten. Out of sight, out of mind. Okay, it's good that Pharo is being taught in some schools. But how many schools are there in the world, and how many are NOT teaching Pharo? Look at the United States and Canada, for example. Despite the evangelizing efforts so far, the needle hasn't moved for Smalltalk. At least, not in any way measurable to the public. At some point, one has to ask, "is this working?", and if not, "how can we do things differently?" Why are you afraid to ask these questions? Smalltalk is not a religion. The goal is not to conquer all programmers, nor all programming tasks. But increasing the breadth of applicability so that Smalltalk benefits more of the IT world is surely a worthy ambition. *Right now, it's barely a blip on the radar of most businesses.* That can't be a satisfactory state of affairs. In terms of this discussion, yes, size is everything. Smalltalk's library ecosystem is demonstrably weak. (I dare you to ask me to provide an example.) Why is this okay? A strong ecosystem would make Smalltalk/Pharo much more useful to many more people in the IT world. And how do you build a strong ecosystem? By growing the user community sufficiently large. We've seen this scenario play out over and over and over again...with Python...with Java...with JavaScript...with Scala...and soon with Go. That's why popularity matters. Please, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm trying to change the direction of an ocean liner because I believe it's not moving in the right direction. Obviously, this is a monumental task. One last point: If Stephan's Wardley maps have been used by Pharo recently, then I submit they haven't had the desired effects. Unless Pharo's status quo *is* the desired outcome, in which case, I find that sad. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866783.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Johan Fabry

> On Dec 12, 2015, at 18:45, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. > > This mentality says that "if you build it, they will come." Keep improving > the platform and eventually people will find it. **Or not.** You don't > really care. (As an aside, **how** will they find it???) You are ignoring the fact that Pharo is being taught in multiple universities and people like Stef and have made many âevangelizationâ talks and âbeginnerâ courses in different places. There are screencasts being made and blog posts being written by various people and pushed on hacker news sites (all occasionally), plus other publicity work that escapes me at the moment. It would be great to be able to do more, but our resources are extremely limited. Sadly, thatâs just the way it is and instead of complaining about it we go and do what we do best. For some this is coding, for other this is documenting (had a look at books.pharo.org lately?), for others this is evangelizing. > This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The tool > is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while > they're welcome to join, *will not be missed if they go elsewhere*. The goal of Pharo is not to conquer all programmers and programming tasks. This is not a religion, nor the next startup that will revolutionize the world. We cannot be everything to everybody, so yes the people that choose to go elsewhere will not be missed. I prefer to spend my limited resources to where I can have a positive impact. > This mentality says that the *size* of the Pharo community is not especially > important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as > *you're* having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality is > that **a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community that > grows large enough to support it**. Side is not everything. Actually the user community *is* large for the niche product that we have, but much much more important than that is that it is very *active*. I am involved in other communities that are huge but where *nothing* happens (e.g. ROS). We have a good set of base libraries that are actually quite well maintained and the community is very helpful when issues crop up (again, compared to e.g. ROS). > In other words, until the user community reaches **critical mass**, a strong > library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the breadth > of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited. > > Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming > language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**. Give us the money and the influence that e.g. Sun had for Java, or Microsoft for C# or .net, or Apple for Objective C and Swift. Sure we would not have the limits that you speak of. But we are not that. We have *no* resources, compared to what these giants have. So, again, with the limited resources we are doing all that we can, and *having an impact* e.g. http://pharo.org/success On a personal note, your mail sounds accusing and it hurts when I read it, which is why I responded. We are doing what we can with the resources that we have. If you want a positive effect, an outreached hand will yield much better results than a pointing finger. ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD and RyCh labs - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile

Dec. 13, 2015

NSGA II Genetic algorithm in SmallTalk/Pharo

by abdelghani ALIDRA

Hi, Is there an implementation in Smalltalk/Pharo of the multiObjectives Genetic Algorithm NSGAII?I beleive Gustavo implemented a sort of multiobjective genetic algorithm but I am not sure it was NSGAII. Thanks in advance. Abdelghani

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Stephan Eggermont

On 12-12-15 22:45, horrido wrote: > Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. ... > Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming > language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**. Oh please, can you stop this nonsense? If you want to learn something about strategy, read the blog I posted earlier about, and create some Wardley maps for us. Your situational awareness is lacking. Strategy means making choices. Stephan

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by horrido

Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. This mentality says that "if you build it, they will come." Keep improving the platform and eventually people will find it. **Or not.** You don't really care. (As an aside, **how** will they find it???) This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The tool is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while they're welcome to join, *will not be missed if they go elsewhere*. This mentality says that the *size* of the Pharo community is not especially important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as *you're* having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality is that **a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community that grows large enough to support it**. In other words, until the user community reaches **critical mass**, a strong library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the breadth of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited. Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**. kilon.alios wrote > I think that is why its difficult to bring pharo to diffirent platforms, > the mentality of pharo and mentality of smalltalk is so specific that does > not fit easily into other platforms. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866766.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 12, 2015

auch ne Kalkulationsgrundlage ...

by Hartmut Krasemann

Am 12.12.15 um 18:00 schrieb pharo-users-request(a)lists.pharo.org: > Send Pharo-users mailing list submissions to > pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > pharo-users-request(a)lists.pharo.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > pharo-users-owner(a)lists.pharo.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Pharo-users digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: PharoJVM (Ben Coman) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 22:16:58 +0800 > From: Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> > To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM > Message-ID: > <CAProBTmaNFmR029FA==CYY6deepQG4=b+S2NgqtoWP6ZdaOVZg(a)mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 8:41 PM, phil(a)highoctane.be <phil(a)highoctane.be> wrote: >> Java cannot do become:, so, that's not going to be a "real" smalltalk. >> >> I do work w/ Java & Scala on a project. >> >> First, JAR hell -> productivity killer >> >> Second, lots of infrastructure needed: IDE, Maven, Artifactory, ... -> >> another productivity killer >> >> Long story short: prototype the thing in Pharo and if good enough, run it >> there. I've done that for one project of late. Net resut: it takes 5x the engineers >> and 3x the time to do the same in X than with Pharo. > A nice insight to a very interesting marketing technique ;) Many know > the quote "Plan to throw one away." > So you don't need to convince them upfront to adopt a technology > unknown to them - but then they see it working and balance that > against dollars. I guess if later Pharo encounters some > insurmountable barrier, they can still do the originally planned > re-inplementation in Java they originally planned - without too much > loss of face - but they get to do it from a well worn prototype. > > cheers -ben > >> If you want to do Java/Scala, by all means, go there. But why the hell is >> this going to be so important? >> >> Read >> https://www.quora.com/Of-the-emerging-systems-languages-Rust-D-Go-and-Nim-w… >> >> for lots of pro/cons arguments on other languages (which do not give a shit >> about Java mean you). >> >> >> Phil >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:41 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> At Redmonk >>> <http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2015/07/01/language-rankings-6-15/> >>> , Scala is a top 20 language (position #14). It's a widely used language, >>> too, though not in the same league as Java nor Python. Even Clojure and >>> Groovy are in the top 20. >>> >>> Scala is much, much more popular and widely used than Smalltalk. If >>> Smalltalk could rise to Scala's level, it would be a huge win. >>> >>> The reason Amber and Redline and others have never achieved popularity is >>> primarily due to the lack of proper marketing. There are a gazillion >>> programming languages out there vying for developer attention. Smalltalk >>> is >>> completely lost in the noise. It's a great platform, but if it doesn't >>> have >>> developer /mindshare/, people won't try it. How do you think they'll find >>> their way to Smalltalk/Pharo? By divination? >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: >>> http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866722.html >>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >>> >>> > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-users mailing list > Pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > http://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Pharo-users Digest, Vol 32, Issue 69 > ******************************************* -- signatur Hartmut Krasemann KÃ¶nigsberger Str. 41 c D 22869 Schenefeld Tel. 040.8307097 Mobil 0171.6451283 Krasemann(a)acm.org

Dec. 12, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Dimitris Chloupis

Well if you want to work on redline and improve it , none will stop you, its a free... software... afterall ;) Simply complaining about things wont change much if anything. Frankly If I ever wanted to use Java libraries for any reason , I would not give up on Pharo just to use another pharo implementation which may or may not work as I expect it. I suspect most Pharoers would agree with me as well :) I rather do this from the comfort of my gorgeous pharo enviroment :) The latest commit in redline was back in October 2013 https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master On the other hand JNIPort had some recent commits by Tudor http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort/commits and it now supports pharo 5. Personally I dont care about making pharo more popular , I care about making pharo more.... pharo. I am very interested into live coding and visual coding. JVM is not invested on these areas, it has a very different mentality so porting pharo there is not something that interests me. Java with its huge popularly does not impress me as much pharo does in terms of flexibility, functionality and directness. I think that is why its difficult to bring pharo to diffirent platforms, the mentality of pharo and mentality of smalltalk is so specific that does not fit easily into other platforms. On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 7:17 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I looked at JNIPort. It's **very** limited in its capabilities. "Improving" > it may be an insurmountable task. > > Redline's approach was very attractive. Relatively clean and elegant, and > quite capable. It's a pity James Ladd couldn't get back to the project. > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866737.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Dec. 12, 2015