October 2011 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Consortium News: let's make it real.

by Robert Shiplett

This is terrific good news. Top priority for a "real" Smalltalk system: auto-config that works very reliably across major and minor releases ("very" means fatal errors in any 12 month period over 5 years are less than [ here set a target and publish it and publicly track that performance.] Builds of Cincom VisualWorks with Seaside 2.x were in the usual tradition of loading Smalltalk (Smalltalkers tend to decry that the St environmen is not well-known or appreciated, but just as well that this non-issue was the in-house secret-of-polichinelle ... The challenge of building Smalltalk may have compared well to Java or C++, but what comfort should have been taken in that? That tradional nightmare has been confounding versioning with building. My hope had been that Roel Wuyts and SOUL would lead to a solution through a build agent able to backtrack and achieve a build where one was possible given certain minimal constraits and effectively report the build obstacles without ever dropping into a debugger. Congratulations and this wish: may it almost always build and build well and most often build as intended (and leave - most often - only the in-house developer-engineers living on that bleeding edge.) May Pharo soon be the best "mature" Smalltalk environment (regardless of which dialect leads along the bleeding-edge.) FÃ©licitations & viel GlÃ¼ck !

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: [Pharo-users] Loading Seaside 3.0 cripples System browser

by Lukas Renggli

> The development environment is one of the things that > has attracked me to Squeak and Pharo, though, and it would seem kind of a > loss to not get the benefits of the RefactoringBrowser, which I think > depends on OB. FYI: No. In fact there is no such thing as the "Refactoring Browser". People common refer to the "Refactoring Engine" as the "Refactoring Browser". The original "Refactoring Browser" was broken for decades (nobody used it) and I removed it about 3 years ago from the refactoring code. The refactoring engine is just a model. OmniBrowser is independent of the refactoring engine and vice-versa. Only if you load the package OmniBrowser-Refactoring you connect the two and give the refactoring engine a view. AFAIK, OmniBrowser is the existing view for the refactoring engine at the moment. Lukas -- Lukas Renggli www.lukas-renggli.ch

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Consortium News: let's make it real.

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

And you can also market that you are part of a strong consortium. Stef > >> then what are the benefits for the companies paying the fee (apart of the moral of help build pharo) ? > > I think that the idea of the consortium is to create an entity that provides resources for further development of Pharo. > > It is all good and well to use open source and free stuff (and of course, Pharo will remain open source and free to use), but as a commercial user you have a couple of needs: you want Pharo to remain alive and well, active and growing and you will want support. All that takes resources (money/time). For many well known open source projects there are foundations and/or large companies paying for engineers. Pharo needs some of that as well. > > I think it is a good idea. > > Sven > >

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: [Pharo-users] Loading Seaside 3.0 cripples System browser

by Tangaloor

Thanks, Norbert. If I explicitly load #bleedingEdge from ConfigurationOfOmniBrowser, will then running a load of latestVersion on ConfigurationOfSeaside30 override the loaded version of OmniBrowser? ________________________________ From: Norbert Hartl [via Smalltalk] [ml-node+s1294792n3897086h17(a)n4.nabble.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 2:44 AM To: Joel E. Wilson Subject: Re: Loading Seaside 3.0 cripples System browser For OB in 1.3 you still need to load #bleedingEdge I think. Norbert Am 12.10.2011 um 07:56 schrieb Dale Henrichs <[hidden email]<UrlBlockedError.aspx>>: > Tangaloor, > > Other systems have conditional compilation and Smalltalk has conditional loading ... > > OmniBrowser and its eco system is very brittle ... it seems that they OB is constantly breaking when the underlying system changes (not surprising at one level), but that causes particular problems for Seaside, because it must have one window that is written against OB ... I think that the OB configuration is no longer maintained so it is a shame that this is affecting the use of Seaside30... > > one can load without that particular OB dependency but you need to understand a little more about Seaside and Metacello (you must decide which packages you want over and above the Base system). > > I never load the full system anymore, because of the headaches that OB causes ... it does seem to be constantly broken ... If I had my druthers I would change the Seaside30 configuration so that it was easy to exclude OB, but I am not the only one making decisions about the config ... > > I am a bit busy for the next few days, but if you ping me at the end of the week, I will publish the instructions for loading Seaside30 without OB ... if you google around a bit you will probably find several threads on this topic (and even quite possibly instructions on how to load Seaside30 without OB:)... > > Dale > -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Loading-Seaside-3-0-cripples-System-browser-tp3880813… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Consortium News: let's make it real.

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 12 Oct 2011, at 13:04, GermÃ¡n Arduino wrote: > then what are the benefits for the companies paying the fee (apart of the moral of help build pharo) ? I think that the idea of the consortium is to create an entity that provides resources for further development of Pharo. It is all good and well to use open source and free stuff (and of course, Pharo will remain open source and free to use), but as a commercial user you have a couple of needs: you want Pharo to remain alive and well, active and growing and you will want support. All that takes resources (money/time). For many well known open source projects there are foundations and/or large companies paying for engineers. Pharo needs some of that as well. I think it is a good idea. Sven

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: [Pharo-users] Loading Seaside 3.0 cripples System browser

by Tangaloor

Thanks, Dale. I saw one of those threads: http://forum.world.st/seaside-stable-on-pharo-13-td3746815.html And I'm sure I can find more detailed instructions when I go digging. That thread above refers to me as a naive user, which is pretty accurate. I'm pretty willing to learn how to configure using command-line, though, so that doesn't bother me. The development environment is one of the things that has attracked me to Squeak and Pharo, though, and it would seem kind of a loss to not get the benefits of the RefactoringBrowser, which I think depends on OB. Also, how many of those naive benefits, besides the component configuration, will go away? Do you lose the component halos and other development tools? ________________________________ From: Dale Henrichs [via Smalltalk] [ml-node+s1294792n3896901h82(a)n4.nabble.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 12:56 AM To: Joel E. Wilson Subject: Re: Loading Seaside 3.0 cripples System browser Tangaloor, Other systems have conditional compilation and Smalltalk has conditional loading ... OmniBrowser and its eco system is very brittle ... it seems that they OB is constantly breaking when the underlying system changes (not surprising at one level), but that causes particular problems for Seaside, because it must have one window that is written against OB ... I think that the OB configuration is no longer maintained so it is a shame that this is affecting the use of Seaside30... one can load without that particular OB dependency but you need to understand a little more about Seaside and Metacello (you must decide which packages you want over and above the Base system). I never load the full system anymore, because of the headaches that OB causes ... it does seem to be constantly broken ... If I had my druthers I would change the Seaside30 configuration so that it was easy to exclude OB, but I am not the only one making decisions about the config ... I am a bit busy for the next few days, but if you ping me at the end of the week, I will publish the instructions for loading Seaside30 without OB ... if you google around a bit you will probably find several threads on this topic (and even quite possibly instructions on how to load Seaside30 without OB:)... Dale -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Loading-Seaside-3-0-cripples-System-browser-tp3880813… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Consortium News: let's make it real.

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

On Oct 12, 2011, at 1:04 PM, GermÃ¡n Arduino wrote: > Hi: > > I had the same doubts than Bernat. > > Just to clarify, if a company (even a small one of a single person) decides to use Pharo commercialy, will have the following two options: > > 1. Be part of the consortium and pay the fee; and > 2. Not be part of the consortium and use Pharo for free ? yes we already said it 10 times at least. Pharo will stay free with the same MIT license. > > > I the previous is true, then what are the benefits for the companies paying the fee (apart of the moral of help build pharo) ? Make sure that Pharo make progress not just based on our free time. Build a real system and eco system. Market yourself as part of a powerful community. > > Sorry if I missunderstood something. > > Cheers. > > 2011/10/11 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > > On Oct 11, 2011, at 1:08 PM, Bernat Romagosa wrote: > > > Maybe I didn't understand right, but what you mean is that Pharo is going to end being free of charge for people who use it commercially? > > not at all. > I never say that or even think about it. > > We are talking about consortium participation. The all point is how can we make sure that as a community we structure ourselves and put > money or time on the table. > > > > If so, the fees you propose for single-person companies and small companies look a little bit high to me... I would at least make them depend on the benefits or some other kind of deal. Last year I was trying to set up a small company (a dev + a designer) with a friend of mine, and a fee of 2500â¬ would have definitely been a big barrier for us... > > We should find successful small companies :) > After we should have a free moral license so that companies can contribute. > > > > Also, you need to make very clear how frequently is the company supposed to pay the fee is it one single payment for life, monthly, yearly? > good points. > yearly. > > Stef > > > > > Cheers, > > > > 2011/10/11 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > > > > On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:20 AM, Davorin Rusevljan wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:09 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse > > > <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > >> There some strings attached: We will not be able to pay remote development since this is regulated under the public market french laws > > >> but we will be able to hire people (on french rate if they work in France). We will have to see the legal period to spent the money. > > > > > > this restriction applies to 50k Euro given by INRIA, or to total money > > > collected from all members of consortium? > > > > All money because it will be managed by INRIA as any other INRIA projects (like our team) and we are all following these rules: > > this is not that we cannot but it means that > > - we have to spend 2/4-8 weeks to write done what we want > > - it will be published in the journal official > > - companies will be able to bid > > - then there is a selection phase > > - then you get the work started to the get done > > The problem is that this is lengthly and you have control the result > > > > Now depending on the situation and the money collected we will be able to hire people but they will have to be located in france. > > > > This is why if the consortium is successful (which we hope) the idea is to get out of INRIA > > but this means that there is nothing like a free lunch > > - specific accountant > > - balblbaabablabl > > - and more > > > > Do not hesitate to ask question. > > > > Stef > > > > > > > > Davorin Rusevljan > > > http://www.cloud208.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Bernat Romagosa. > > > >

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Consortium News: let's make it real.

by Marcus Denker

On Oct 12, 2011, at 1:04 PM, GermÃ¡n Arduino wrote: > Hi: > > I had the same doubts than Bernat. > > Just to clarify, if a company (even a small one of a single person) decides to use Pharo commercialy, will have the following two options: > > 1. Be part of the consortium and pay the fee; and > 2. Not be part of the consortium and use Pharo for free ? > Yes. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo Consortium News: let's make it real.

by GermÃ¡n Arduino

Hi: I had the same doubts than Bernat. Just to clarify, if a company (even a small one of a single person) decides to use Pharo commercialy, will have the following two options: 1. Be part of the consortium and pay the fee; and 2. Not be part of the consortium and use Pharo for free ? I the previous is true, then what are the benefits for the companies paying the fee (apart of the moral of help build pharo) ? Sorry if I missunderstood something. Cheers. 2011/10/11 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > > On Oct 11, 2011, at 1:08 PM, Bernat Romagosa wrote: > > > Maybe I didn't understand right, but what you mean is that Pharo is going > to end being free of charge for people who use it commercially? > > not at all. > I never say that or even think about it. > > We are talking about consortium participation. The all point is how can we > make sure that as a community we structure ourselves and put > money or time on the table. > > > > If so, the fees you propose for single-person companies and small > companies look a little bit high to me... I would at least make them depend > on the benefits or some other kind of deal. Last year I was trying to set up > a small company (a dev + a designer) with a friend of mine, and a fee of > 2500â¬ would have definitely been a big barrier for us... > > We should find successful small companies :) > After we should have a free moral license so that companies can contribute. > > > > Also, you need to make very clear how frequently is the company supposed > to pay the fee is it one single payment for life, monthly, yearly? > good points. > yearly. > > Stef > > > > > Cheers, > > > > 2011/10/11 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > > > > On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:20 AM, Davorin Rusevljan wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:09 PM, StÃ©phane Ducasse > > > <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > >> There some strings attached: We will not be able to pay remote > development since this is regulated under the public market french laws > > >> but we will be able to hire people (on french rate if they work in > France). We will have to see the legal period to spent the money. > > > > > > this restriction applies to 50k Euro given by INRIA, or to total money > > > collected from all members of consortium? > > > > All money because it will be managed by INRIA as any other INRIA projects > (like our team) and we are all following these rules: > > this is not that we cannot but it means that > > - we have to spend 2/4-8 weeks to write done what we want > > - it will be published in the journal official > > - companies will be able to bid > > - then there is a selection phase > > - then you get the work started to the get done > > The problem is that this is lengthly and you have control > the result > > > > Now depending on the situation and the money collected we will be able to > hire people but they will have to be located in france. > > > > This is why if the consortium is successful (which we hope) the idea is > to get out of INRIA > > but this means that there is nothing like a free lunch > > - specific accountant > > - balblbaabablabl > > - and more > > > > Do not hesitate to ask question. > > > > Stef > > > > > > > > Davorin Rusevljan > > > http://www.cloud208.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Bernat Romagosa. > > >

Oct. 12, 2011

Re: [Pharo-users] Loading Seaside 3.0 cripples System browser

by Norbert Hartl

For OB in 1.3 you still need to load #bleedingEdge I think. Norbert Am 12.10.2011 um 07:56 schrieb Dale Henrichs <dhenrich(a)vmware.com>: > Tangaloor, > > Other systems have conditional compilation and Smalltalk has conditional loading ... > > OmniBrowser and its eco system is very brittle ... it seems that they OB is constantly breaking when the underlying system changes (not surprising at one level), but that causes particular problems for Seaside, because it must have one window that is written against OB ... I think that the OB configuration is no longer maintained so it is a shame that this is affecting the use of Seaside30... > > one can load without that particular OB dependency but you need to understand a little more about Seaside and Metacello (you must decide which packages you want over and above the Base system). > > I never load the full system anymore, because of the headaches that OB causes ... it does seem to be constantly broken ... If I had my druthers I would change the Seaside30 configuration so that it was easy to exclude OB, but I am not the only one making decisions about the config ... > > I am a bit busy for the next few days, but if you ping me at the end of the week, I will publish the instructions for loading Seaside30 without OB ... if you google around a bit you will probably find several threads on this topic (and even quite possibly instructions on how to load Seaside30 without OB:)... > > Dale > > ----- Original Message ----- > | From: "Tangaloor" <tanga(a)tanga.org> > | To: pharo-users(a)lists.gforge.inria.fr > | Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:59:56 PM > | Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Loading Seaside 3.0 cripples System browser > | > | I'm also having this issue. I'm fairly new to Smalltalk and Pharo. > | I've > | used the Seaside One-click installer and don't remember there being > | issues > | with the System Browser there. I have tried running: > | > | Gofer new > | squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; > | package: 'ConfigurationOfOmniBrowser'; > | load. > | > | (ConfigurationOfOmniBrowser project latestVersion) load. > | > | and > | > | (ConfigurationOfOmniBrowser project version: #stable) load. > | > | And that seems to have a similar set of dependency issues. Also, > | when you > | dig into the version specs, it seems like it's grabbing #stable of > | ConfigurationOfOmniBrowser. I admin that I don't know enough about > | Metacello to know if that's just the version for the > | ConfigurationOfOmniBrowser or if it calls out the specific Monticello > | versions that it is supposed to be grabbing. It does seem like the > | #stable > | label would seem to be a moving target, though, and shouldn't > | necessarily be > | called out inside these package recipes. I'm new to this framework, > | but > | other systems that use auto-build and deployment delivery systems > | often seem > | to try and be very specific about the versions that are depended > | upon. > | > | > | Charles Monteiro wrote: > | > > | > I downloaded the Pharo 1.3 one click. > | > > | > I then attempted to load Seaside using the following mechanism: > | > > | > Gofer new > | > squeaksource: 'MetacelloRepository'; > | > package: 'ConfigurationOfSeaside30'; > | > load. > | > > | > ((Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfSeaside30) project latestVersion) > | > load. > | > > | > It complained twice about some package dependencies i.e. related to > | > RBxxx > | > packages. I proceeded through both and it seemingly terminated > | > fine. > | > Seaside was loaded including the Seaside control panel. However, > | > doing a > | > right mouse over the leftmost panel (Categories) resulted in an > | > MNU. > | > Also stuff like syntax highlighting became inactive. > | > > | > Is there a way to load the latest and greatest Seaside into Pharo > | > 1.3 with > | > "all" pre-req dependencies resolved ? i.e. how can I load Seaside > | > clean ? > | > > | > > | > thanks in advance > | > > | > -Charles > | > > | > | > | -- > | View this message in context: > | http://forum.world.st/Loading-Seaside-3-0-cripples-System-browser-tp3880813… > | Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at > | Nabble.com. > | > | >

Oct. 12, 2011