December 2010 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by Geert Claes

James Ashley wrote: > > ... > As a complete smalltalk n00b, I just don't have a dog in this "fight." > Here's the summary of what I've seen in this thread... > > Looking in from the outside, I can see that both of you are correct. This > is open source's biggest strength and its greatest weakness. > This is not a fight, it's just a very passionate discussion ... mind you, English is not the first language for a lot people here and even though things may get slightly misconstrued and discussions do sometimes appear to be intense, I bet they'll still gladly have a beer together :) To summarize: - The current list of "ideas to implement" lives here: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/IdeasToImplement - Does the list of ideas have a voting system? No. Why? There is no way to ensure ideas will be implemented according to the votes. - How do we know which ideas are popular? Ideas are discussed on the mailing list. - Can anyone suggest new ideas? Abso-freakin-lutely! So I guess the only thing that may need to be elaborated a bit further is how an idea that has been discussed on the mailing list (e.g. native windows) will make its way to the list of "ideas to implement" and everyone can happily look forward to start the weekend with a beer in hand and smile on their face :) -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Feature-requests-tp3077333p3081581.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 10, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

andres what can I say? Write PEPs take a couple of them that you think are really important, write them get people involved and we see in 6 or 12 months from now. If it succeeds I will be more than happy. Believe me. > If you had actually considered what has been written in this thread, then you'll realize that throwing a bunch of items in an e-mail has nothing to do with feature requests. yes this is about building synergy about an idea. (you see I'm not mean I could have say around an idea that nobody has the financial impact to get real) > I find quite contradictory that one of your main arguments is about not having enough contributors and yet take that attitude instead of getting something positive out of the initiative. But I'm positive: I show you all the features we dream about. Take 3 and build a PEP and succeed building them and we will all be happy. > But I guess I must be wrong, that surely works, It's just me that doesn't understand how. > > AndrÃ©s > > > StÃ©phane Ducasse escribiÃ³: >> so here is my whislist in no order. >> - multiwindowing system >> - native mashup of native elements by os for building widgets >> - new ui framework (with decent coordinate system) a cool sexy widget set (MVP behind). >> - vm callable as dll - bootstrappable >> - distributions + build servers + validated packages >> - better code browsers and tools >> - pretty print as you type >> - cairo backend or opensvg like rendering >> - faster/cleaner monticello >> - new filesystem >> - module system >> - new mop >> - UIbuilder and interpreter >> - good RMI - better JIT >> - cleaner VM code >> - faster system >> - good connection with C libraries >> - clean and extensible event system >> - remote debugger >> - better compiler >> - cross compilation >> - better documentation with example >> - 100% test coverage >> - better library for connection to database >> https >> XML handling >> web services gluing and extracting info >> https support >> network >> - widget for seaside >> - scaffolding for CRUD in Seaside >> - persistency solutions >> - OODMs >> - ERP in Smalltalk >> - ... >> So ok add yours. >

Dec. 10, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by James Ashley

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 7:38 PM, andres <andres(a)lifia.info.unlp.edu.ar> wrote: > If you had actually considered what has been written in this thread, then > you'll realize that throwing a bunch of items in an e-mail has nothing to do > with feature requests. I find quite contradictory that one of your main > arguments is about not having enough contributors and yet take that attitude > instead of getting something positive out of the initiative. But I guess I > must be wrong, that surely works, It's just me that doesn't understand how. As a complete smalltalk n00b, I just don't have a dog in this "fight." Here's the summary of what I've seen in this thread (my apologies for the missing accents, like most Americans, I'm an asshole): Andres: Wouldn't it be great if we let the community contribute and request features?! Stephane: Been there, tried that. Doesn't work. Andres: But let's try it again! Stephane: Fine. Here's my wish-list. Any suggestions about how to pay for it? Andres: Quit being a jerk. Looking in from the outside, I can see that both of you are correct. This is open source's biggest strength and its greatest weakness. Get involved. Do something that makes life better for everyone else. Quit expecting someone else to solve your problems for you. Put together a project on github, or sourceforge, or assembla, or wherever. Get people who love a project and want to contribute. Or just provide contributions yourself. Quit talking, quit planning, and actually *do* something. Odds are, the people who are already involved in the project know what needs to be done...they're just busy with things like Real Life and don't have time. > AndrÃ©s And, yes. This was really directed more toward me than anyone else. -- James

Dec. 10, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by andres

If you had actually considered what has been written in this thread, then you'll realize that throwing a bunch of items in an e-mail has nothing to do with feature requests. I find quite contradictory that one of your main arguments is about not having enough contributors and yet take that attitude instead of getting something positive out of the initiative. But I guess I must be wrong, that surely works, It's just me that doesn't understand how. AndrÃ©s StÃ©phane Ducasse escribiÃ³: > so here is my whislist in no order. > > - multiwindowing system > - native mashup of native elements by os for building widgets > - new ui framework (with decent coordinate system) a cool sexy widget set (MVP behind). > - vm callable as dll > - bootstrappable > - distributions + build servers + validated packages > - better code browsers and tools > - pretty print as you type > - cairo backend or opensvg like rendering > - faster/cleaner monticello > - new filesystem > - module system > - new mop > - UIbuilder and interpreter > - good RMI > - better JIT > - cleaner VM code > - faster system > - good connection with C libraries > - clean and extensible event system > - remote debugger > - better compiler > - cross compilation > - better documentation with example > - 100% test coverage > - better library for > connection to database > https > XML handling > web services gluing and extracting info > https support > network > - widget for seaside > - scaffolding for CRUD in Seaside > - persistency solutions > - OODMs > - ERP in Smalltalk > - ... > > So ok add yours. >

Dec. 10, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by Stefan Marr

On 09 Dec 2010, at 22:30, Igor Stasenko wrote: > 10 man-years :) And thats alone for the better JIT/VM ;) > > > On 9 December 2010 22:24, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> so here is my whislist in no order. >> >> - multiwindowing system >> - native mashup of native elements by os for building widgets >> - new ui framework (with decent coordinate system) a cool sexy widget set (MVP behind). >> - vm callable as dll >> - bootstrappable >> - distributions + build servers + validated packages >> - better code browsers and tools >> - pretty print as you type >> - cairo backend or opensvg like rendering >> - faster/cleaner monticello >> - new filesystem >> - module system >> - new mop >> - UIbuilder and interpreter >> - good RMI >> - better JIT >> - cleaner VM code >> - faster system >> - good connection with C libraries >> - clean and extensible event system >> - remote debugger >> - better compiler >> - cross compilation >> - better documentation with example >> - 100% test coverage >> - better library for >> connection to database >> https >> XML handling >> web services gluing and extracting info >> https support >> network >> - widget for seaside >> - scaffolding for CRUD in Seaside >> - persistency solutions >> - OODMs >> - ERP in Smalltalk >> - ... >> >> So ok add yours. >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. -- Stefan Marr Software Languages Lab Vrije Universiteit Brussel Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr Phone: +32 2 629 2974 Fax: +32 2 629 3525

Dec. 9, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by Igor Stasenko

10 man-years :) On 9 December 2010 22:24, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > so here is my whislist in no order. > > Â Â Â Â - multiwindowing system > Â Â Â Â - native mashup of native elements by os for building widgets > Â Â Â Â - new ui framework (with decent coordinate system) a cool sexy widget set (MVP behind). > Â Â Â Â - vm callable as dll > Â Â Â Â - bootstrappable > Â Â Â Â - distributions + build servers + validated packages > Â Â Â Â - better code browsers and tools > Â Â Â Â - pretty print as you type > Â Â Â Â - cairo backend or opensvg like rendering > Â Â Â Â - faster/cleaner monticello > Â Â Â Â - new filesystem > Â Â Â Â - module system > Â Â Â Â - new mop > Â Â Â Â - UIbuilder and interpreter > Â Â Â Â - good RMI > Â Â Â Â - better JIT > Â Â Â Â - cleaner VM code > Â Â Â Â - faster system > Â Â Â Â - good connection with C libraries > Â Â Â Â - clean and extensible event system > Â Â Â Â - remote debugger > Â Â Â Â - better compiler > Â Â Â Â - cross compilation > Â Â Â Â - better documentation with example > Â Â Â Â - 100% test coverage > Â Â Â Â - better library for > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â connection to database > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â https > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â XML handling > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â web services gluing and extracting info > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â https support > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â network > Â Â Â Â - widget for seaside > Â Â Â Â - scaffolding for CRUD in Seaside > Â Â Â Â - persistency solutions > Â Â Â Â - OODMs > Â Â Â Â - ERP in Smalltalk > Â Â Â Â - ... > > So ok add yours. > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Dec. 9, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

so here is my whislist in no order. - multiwindowing system - native mashup of native elements by os for building widgets - new ui framework (with decent coordinate system) a cool sexy widget set (MVP behind). - vm callable as dll - bootstrappable - distributions + build servers + validated packages - better code browsers and tools - pretty print as you type - cairo backend or opensvg like rendering - faster/cleaner monticello - new filesystem - module system - new mop - UIbuilder and interpreter - good RMI - better JIT - cleaner VM code - faster system - good connection with C libraries - clean and extensible event system - remote debugger - better compiler - cross compilation - better documentation with example - 100% test coverage - better library for connection to database https XML handling web services gluing and extracting info https support network - widget for seaside - scaffolding for CRUD in Seaside - persistency solutions - OODMs - ERP in Smalltalk - ... So ok add yours.

Dec. 9, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> I don't know if feature requests, PEPs or which other scheme may be the better fit. I do believe that having a way of documenting feature requests would be useful. But I also think that the board should agree with that for having something positive going on, and that doesn't seem to be the case. So I guess that's pretty much it. andres we are not against PEPs, we are just frustrated that nothing will come out except if I win to the europe lotery several billion euros and I invest in Pharo (but I do not buy tickets so chances are low). Stef > > Cheers, > AndrÃ©s > > HernÃ¡n Morales Durand escribiÃ³: >> 2010/12/8 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: >>>> I know AndrÃ©s did a lot of good work in and for Smalltalk, he >>>> shouldn't need to present any credentials here. And besides there must >>>> be a nice way to make people listened and to considerate their claims. >>> I know him too and this is not the problem of trust or achievement as a programmer. >>> We consider claim and expectations this is why we sent calls in the past. >>> >>> Now the key question is: is it productive to discuss features if by construction we know that we will not have >>> the manpower to do something? >> Considering the extreme and embarrassing success of, for example, >> Python (even with their crappy syntax and methodologies) over >> Smalltalk, I think yes it is productive to learn from succesfully >> software projects. >> What's wrong with the revisions and improvements process described in >> my previous mail? Why nobody considerate it? >> See for example: >> What is a PEP? >> ============== >> PEP stands for Python Enhancement Proposal. A PEP is a design >> document providing information to the Python community, or describing >> a new feature for Python or its processes or environment. The PEP >> should provide a concise technical specification of the feature and a >> rationale for the feature. >> We intend PEPs to be the primary mechanisms for proposing new >> features, for collecting community input on an issue, and for >> documenting the design decisions that have gone into Python. The PEP >> author is responsible for building consensus within the community and >> documenting dissenting opinions. >> Because the PEPs are maintained as text files in a versioned >> repository, their revision history is the historical record of the >> feature proposal >> (from http://svn.python.org/projects/peps/trunk/pep-0001.txt) >>> We can dream and talk but at the end of the day if we say ok it costs 4 man months and changing all the vms (which I would love to see happening). >>> >>> I have a huge wish list, believe me and the result is gorgeous now the only thing that I can do >>> is to take one of the item and beat it to death and doing it and go to the next one. And I frustrate a lot >>> because these are a lot of tiny steps. >>> >> Ok, what I'm saying is why don't start organizing the proposals, >> evaluations, coordination, decisions, etc. and then the people will >> come. >> Cheers, >

Dec. 9, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by Mariano Martinez Peck

On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 9:46 PM, George Herolyants < george.herolyants(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2010/12/8 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>: > > Now the key question is: is it productive to discuss features if by > construction we know that we will not have > > the manpower to do something? > > I think it is. Who knows, maybe such a wishlist could influence > somebody to make a contribution or some research? +1 I think a wishlist is worth it even if there won't be manpower at that moment.

Dec. 9, 2010

Re: [Pharo-users] Feature requests

by andres

Hi Geert, thanks for your detailed mail. I didn't (still don't) know the exact size of the community. I understand that not having a stable dev-team is definitely a problem and may even forbid things like a commitment to solve "popular" feature requests per release. Yet I'm convinced that knowing what your user's want should be a central part of an open-source project like Pharo, where you are actually building a platform for other people to use and exploit. Most successful open-source projects are those that can built a strong community around them and from my point of view knowing what the community wants is an important step. I believe that if the message is "we are listening to what you want and we will try to achieve it" instead of "do it yourself" you have more chances of creating a healthy community. Cheers, AndrÃ©s

Dec. 9, 2010