According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most likely name Java *Programming Language of the Year* for 2015. (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.) It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be well-suited. (I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple syntax is very, very important!) I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress. Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on putting Pharo on the JVM?
Maybe one option was to fork VMMaker to generate Pharo VM as java code (although maybe was better Scala than Java). Convert platform code to a JVM language (for example, Scala) and use scalac to compile PharoVM to JVM. Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero -----Mensaje original----- De: "Richard Eng" <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> Enviado: â11/â12/â2015 19:36 Para: "pharo-users@lists.pharo.org" <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> Asunto: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.) It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be well-suited. (I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple syntax is very, very important!) I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress. Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on putting Pharo on the JVM?
What does "on the JVM" mean? Java itself is a crummy cargo cult of a language. The only reason it has traction is for building mobile phone apps. Specifically android. Java isn't the only way to build a mobile phone app on android though. It is perfectly possible to build android applications using other tools. You can even build them using HyperCard thanks to runtime revolution. I would suggest what would be more valuable is a shell that can run pharo apps packaged as mobile apps. Sent from the road
On Dec 11, 2015, at 10:35, Richard Eng <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.)
It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be well-suited.
(I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple syntax is very, very important!)
I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress.
Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on putting Pharo on the JVM?
Yes, Java is a crummy language. Nevertheless, it has traction not only in the Android space, but also in the enterprise space. Just look at IBM (where my brother worked on Java enterprise shit). However, Java is not the most important thing here. It's the Java library ecosystem. That's what everybody is after. And that's why, strategically, it is vital to get Smalltalk/Pharo to tap into that ecosystem. Java may not be the only way to write for Android, but it is, by far, the most popular. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866682.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
It's especially important to strategically, it is vital to get Smalltalk/Pharo to tap into the Java ecosystem if Java itself gets deprecated by Oracle. Everyone who has a lot of enterprise Java code will need something that works on the JVM and will easily interoperate with Java libraries. On 12 December 2015 at 00:03, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, Java is a crummy language. Nevertheless, it has traction not only in the Android space, but also in the enterprise space. Just look at IBM (where my brother worked on Java enterprise shit). However, Java is not the most important thing here. It's the Java library ecosystem. That's what everybody is after. And that's why, strategically, it is vital to get Smalltalk/Pharo to tap into that ecosystem.
Java may not be the only way to write for Android, but it is, by far, the most popular.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866682.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 12-12-15 02:53, EuanM wrote:
It's especially important to strategically, it is vital to get Smalltalk/Pharo to tap into the Java ecosystem if Java itself gets deprecated by Oracle.
Everyone who has a lot of enterprise Java code will need something that works on the JVM and will easily interoperate with Java libraries.
No, it is not important strategically. http://blog.gardeviance.org/2013/01/the-importance-of-maps.html http://blog.gardeviance.org/2015/02/an-introduction-to-wardley-value-chain.h... Stephan
Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont even make the top 20. I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely alive. The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess. Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides to embrace JVM or JS as platforms. And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code. Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message. *Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. * On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most likely name Java *Programming Language of the Year* for 2015. (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.)
It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be well-suited.
(I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple syntax is very, very important!)
I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress.
Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on putting Pharo on the JVM?
At Redmonk <http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2015/07/01/language-rankings-6-15/> , Scala is a top 20 language (position #14). It's a widely used language, too, though not in the same league as Java nor Python. Even Clojure and Groovy are in the top 20. Scala is much, much more popular and widely used than Smalltalk. If Smalltalk could rise to Scala's level, it would be a huge win. The reason Amber and Redline and others have never achieved popularity is primarily due to the lack of proper marketing. There are a gazillion programming languages out there vying for developer attention. Smalltalk is completely lost in the noise. It's a great platform, but if it doesn't have developer /mindshare/, people won't try it. How do you think they'll find their way to Smalltalk/Pharo? By divination? -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866722.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Java cannot do become:, so, that's not going to be a "real" smalltalk. I do work w/ Java & Scala on a project. First, JAR hell -> productivity killer Second, lots of infrastructure needed: IDE, Maven, Artifactory, ... -> another productivity killer Long story short: prototype the thing in Pharo and if good enough, run it there. I've done that for one project of late. Net resut: it takes 5x the engineers and 3x the time to do the same in X than with Pharo. If you want to do Java/Scala, by all means, go there. But why the hell is this going to be so important? Read https://www.quora.com/Of-the-emerging-systems-languages-Rust-D-Go-and-Nim-wh... for lots of pro/cons arguments on other languages (which do not give a shit about Java mean you). Phil On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:41 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
At Redmonk <http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2015/07/01/language-rankings-6-15/
, Scala is a top 20 language (position #14). It's a widely used language, too, though not in the same league as Java nor Python. Even Clojure and Groovy are in the top 20.
Scala is much, much more popular and widely used than Smalltalk. If Smalltalk could rise to Scala's level, it would be a huge win.
The reason Amber and Redline and others have never achieved popularity is primarily due to the lack of proper marketing. There are a gazillion programming languages out there vying for developer attention. Smalltalk is completely lost in the noise. It's a great platform, but if it doesn't have developer /mindshare/, people won't try it. How do you think they'll find their way to Smalltalk/Pharo? By divination?
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866722.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 8:41 PM, phil@highoctane.be <phil@highoctane.be> wrote:
Java cannot do become:, so, that's not going to be a "real" smalltalk.
I do work w/ Java & Scala on a project.
First, JAR hell -> productivity killer
Second, lots of infrastructure needed: IDE, Maven, Artifactory, ... -> another productivity killer
Long story short: prototype the thing in Pharo and if good enough, run it there. I've done that for one project of late. Net resut: it takes 5x the engineers and 3x the time to do the same in X than with Pharo.
A nice insight to a very interesting marketing technique ;) Many know the quote "Plan to throw one away." So you don't need to convince them upfront to adopt a technology unknown to them - but then they see it working and balance that against dollars. I guess if later Pharo encounters some insurmountable barrier, they can still do the originally planned re-inplementation in Java they originally planned - without too much loss of face - but they get to do it from a well worn prototype. cheers -ben
If you want to do Java/Scala, by all means, go there. But why the hell is this going to be so important?
Read https://www.quora.com/Of-the-emerging-systems-languages-Rust-D-Go-and-Nim-wh...
for lots of pro/cons arguments on other languages (which do not give a shit about Java mean you).
Phil
On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:41 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
At Redmonk <http://redmonk.com/sogrady/2015/07/01/language-rankings-6-15/> , Scala is a top 20 language (position #14). It's a widely used language, too, though not in the same league as Java nor Python. Even Clojure and Groovy are in the top 20.
Scala is much, much more popular and widely used than Smalltalk. If Smalltalk could rise to Scala's level, it would be a huge win.
The reason Amber and Redline and others have never achieved popularity is primarily due to the lack of proper marketing. There are a gazillion programming languages out there vying for developer attention. Smalltalk is completely lost in the noise. It's a great platform, but if it doesn't have developer /mindshare/, people won't try it. How do you think they'll find their way to Smalltalk/Pharo? By divination?
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866722.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Hello The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java. The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no phones nor phablets). Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero -----Mensaje original----- De: "Dimitris Chloupis" <kilon.alios@gmail.com> Enviado: â12/â12/â2015 10:25 Para: "Any question about pharo is welcome" <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont even make the top 20. I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely alive. The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess. Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides to embrace JVM or JS as platforms. And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code. Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message. Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote: According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.) It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be well-suited. (I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple syntax is very, very important!) I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress. Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on putting Pharo on the JVM?
Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well. On Android its still a work in progress but its improving On web you can already can use pharo for both the backend (server) and front end (browser-javascript-html-css) So Pharo has already spread on all major platforms , with the exception of Android where there is still work to be done to make it usable. In the dev list there was already an announcement for hiring a developer for one year to work on the Android. So Android is a matter of time too. For anyone that really cares about JVM in general as I already posted he/she can take JNIPort and improve it anyway he/she wants. Its not hard to create support for other languages if one wants to. I created support for python, another dude created support for R programming language who followed a similar approach to mine. But we all have personal reasons and needs for using pharo with other programming languages, I use it to script Blender the 3d application that happens to use python as its scripting language, other may use R for mathematical computations, other do web development, others want to make Android apps and so forth. Its impossible with such small community to fit the needs of every user of pharo or potential user, so it wont happen until like me you are ready to get your hands dirty to make Pharo work well for you. Else you are better coding in other language . On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero < ajaczgz@yahoo.es> wrote:
Hello
The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java.
The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no phones nor phablets).
Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero ------------------------------ De: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> Enviado: â12/â12/â2015 10:25 Para: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM
Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont even make the top 20.
I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely alive.
The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess.
Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides to embrace JVM or JS as platforms.
And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort
https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition
I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code.
Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message.
*Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. *
On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most likely name Java *Programming Language of the Year* for 2015. (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.)
It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be well-suited.
(I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple syntax is very, very important!)
I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress.
Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on putting Pharo on the JVM?
I looked at JNIPort. It's **very** limited in its capabilities. "Improving" it may be an insurmountable task. Redline's approach was very attractive. Relatively clean and elegant, and quite capable. It's a pity James Ladd couldn't get back to the project. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866737.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Well if you want to work on redline and improve it , none will stop you, its a free... software... afterall ;) Simply complaining about things wont change much if anything. Frankly If I ever wanted to use Java libraries for any reason , I would not give up on Pharo just to use another pharo implementation which may or may not work as I expect it. I suspect most Pharoers would agree with me as well :) I rather do this from the comfort of my gorgeous pharo enviroment :) The latest commit in redline was back in October 2013 https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master On the other hand JNIPort had some recent commits by Tudor http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort/commits and it now supports pharo 5. Personally I dont care about making pharo more popular , I care about making pharo more.... pharo. I am very interested into live coding and visual coding. JVM is not invested on these areas, it has a very different mentality so porting pharo there is not something that interests me. Java with its huge popularly does not impress me as much pharo does in terms of flexibility, functionality and directness. I think that is why its difficult to bring pharo to diffirent platforms, the mentality of pharo and mentality of smalltalk is so specific that does not fit easily into other platforms. On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 7:17 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
I looked at JNIPort. It's **very** limited in its capabilities. "Improving" it may be an insurmountable task.
Redline's approach was very attractive. Relatively clean and elegant, and quite capable. It's a pity James Ladd couldn't get back to the project.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866737.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. This mentality says that "if you build it, they will come." Keep improving the platform and eventually people will find it. **Or not.** You don't really care. (As an aside, **how** will they find it???) This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The tool is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while they're welcome to join, *will not be missed if they go elsewhere*. This mentality says that the *size* of the Pharo community is not especially important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as *you're* having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality is that **a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community that grows large enough to support it**. In other words, until the user community reaches **critical mass**, a strong library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the breadth of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited. Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**. kilon.alios wrote
I think that is why its difficult to bring pharo to diffirent platforms, the mentality of pharo and mentality of smalltalk is so specific that does not fit easily into other platforms.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866766.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 12-12-15 22:45, horrido wrote:
Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. ...
Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**.
Oh please, can you stop this nonsense? If you want to learn something about strategy, read the blog I posted earlier about, and create some Wardley maps for us. Your situational awareness is lacking. Strategy means making choices. Stephan
Why is this "nonsense"? Are you saying it's not important to make Pharo applicable to more problem domains? Are you saying that making Pharo useful to more people in the IT community is a dumb idea? What am I missing in terms of situational awareness? Clearly, *I am clueless*, because I don't understand what you're getting at with Wardley maps. "Strategy means making choices." Are you suggesting that you've made hard choices? Whatever those choices are, *the results speak for themselves*. The IT community at large still ignores Smalltalk. Businesses are looking to Java and JavaScript and Python and C++ /before/ they ever look to Pharo. I don't know how you can deny this. I don't know how you can tell me it's working out well for Pharo. Stephan Eggermont wrote
On 12-12-15 22:45, horrido wrote:
Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. ...
Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**.
Oh please, can you stop this nonsense?
If you want to learn something about strategy, read the blog I posted earlier about, and create some Wardley maps for us. Your situational awareness is lacking. Strategy means making choices.
Stephan
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866806.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Why is this "nonsense"? Are you saying it's not important to make Pharo applicable to more problem domains? Are you saying that making Pharo useful to more people in the IT community is a dumb idea?
What am I missing in terms of situational awareness? Clearly,
I am clueless
, because I don't understand what you're getting at with Wardley maps.
"Strategy means making choices." Are you suggesting that you've made hard choices? Whatever those choices are,
the results speak for themselves
Okay, the timing of my post was off. Stephan already answered my question about Wardley maps. Good answer, by the way. horrido wrote * * * *
. The IT community at large still ignores Smalltalk. Businesses are looking to Java and JavaScript and Python and C++ / before / they ever look to Pharo. I don't know how you can deny this. I don't know how you can tell me it's working out well for Pharo.
Stephan Eggermont wrote
On 12-12-15 22:45, horrido wrote:
Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. ...
Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**.
Oh please, can you stop this nonsense?
If you want to learn something about strategy, read the blog I posted earlier about, and create some Wardley maps for us. Your situational awareness is lacking. Strategy means making choices.
Stephan
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866807.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
In the realm of marketing, having a clear objective is key, to unlock the artifact. Being a kid about it, to dig deeper into the inspirations of otexport LD_LIBRARY_PATH="/lib:/usr/lib:/usr/local/lib"hers, ignites it. The kindling, however, must be a positive mental attitude (as espoused by bad brains). Critique is great, but allowing emotions to get behind being negative, let's it run that way. What's positive? YOu can tell every new person that they add to the integrating capacity of a growing modern cloud meta system, with 9 layer stacks and clustered graphs of networked actors...real time. Go for the multi-objective genetic approaches, really and truly. That's the best AI. regards, robert On 12/13/2015 08:47 AM, horrido wrote:
Why is this "nonsense"? Are you saying it's not important to make Pharo applicable to more problem domains? Are you saying that making Pharo useful to more people in the IT community is a dumb idea?
What am I missing in terms of situational awareness? Clearly, *I am clueless*, because I don't understand what you're getting at with Wardley maps.
"Strategy means making choices." Are you suggesting that you've made hard choices? Whatever those choices are, *the results speak for themselves*. The IT community at large still ignores Smalltalk. Businesses are looking to Java and JavaScript and Python and C++ /before/ they ever look to Pharo. I don't know how you can deny this. I don't know how you can tell me it's working out well for Pharo.
Stephan Eggermont wrote
On 12-12-15 22:45, horrido wrote:
Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. ...
Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**. Oh please, can you stop this nonsense?
If you want to learn something about strategy, read the blog I posted earlier about, and create some Wardley maps for us. Your situational awareness is lacking. Strategy means making choices.
Stephan
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866806.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On Dec 12, 2015, at 18:45, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention.
This mentality says that "if you build it, they will come." Keep improving the platform and eventually people will find it. **Or not.** You don't really care. (As an aside, **how** will they find it???)
You are ignoring the fact that Pharo is being taught in multiple universities and people like Stef and have made many âevangelizationâ talks and âbeginnerâ courses in different places. There are screencasts being made and blog posts being written by various people and pushed on hacker news sites (all occasionally), plus other publicity work that escapes me at the moment. It would be great to be able to do more, but our resources are extremely limited. Sadly, thatâs just the way it is and instead of complaining about it we go and do what we do best. For some this is coding, for other this is documenting (had a look at books.pharo.org lately?), for others this is evangelizing.
This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The tool is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while they're welcome to join, *will not be missed if they go elsewhere*.
The goal of Pharo is not to conquer all programmers and programming tasks. This is not a religion, nor the next startup that will revolutionize the world. We cannot be everything to everybody, so yes the people that choose to go elsewhere will not be missed. I prefer to spend my limited resources to where I can have a positive impact.
This mentality says that the *size* of the Pharo community is not especially important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as *you're* having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality is that **a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community that grows large enough to support it**.
Side is not everything. Actually the user community *is* large for the niche product that we have, but much much more important than that is that it is very *active*. I am involved in other communities that are huge but where *nothing* happens (e.g. ROS). We have a good set of base libraries that are actually quite well maintained and the community is very helpful when issues crop up (again, compared to e.g. ROS).
In other words, until the user community reaches **critical mass**, a strong library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the breadth of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited.
Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**.
Give us the money and the influence that e.g. Sun had for Java, or Microsoft for C# or .net, or Apple for Objective C and Swift. Sure we would not have the limits that you speak of. But we are not that. We have *no* resources, compared to what these giants have. So, again, with the limited resources we are doing all that we can, and *having an impact* e.g. http://pharo.org/success On a personal note, your mail sounds accusing and it hurts when I read it, which is why I responded. We are doing what we can with the resources that we have. If you want a positive effect, an outreached hand will yield much better results than a pointing finger. ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD and RyCh labs - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile
Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying to steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation is objective, *not defamatory*. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I look for possible solutions. It is precisely because of limited funding and influence that a group such as yours should be more creative and openminded in how to advance the cause of Smalltalk. For example, I have no resources whatsoever, but in my own way, I've tried hard to advocate for Smalltalk using a marketing strategy. I use whatever is available to me /for free/. I publish articles that are sometimes controversial, but always thought-provoking. *They draw attention to Smalltalk.* They spur debate. Ultimately, the goal is to get people to /think/ about Smalltalk. Otherwise, it gets forgotten. Out of sight, out of mind. Okay, it's good that Pharo is being taught in some schools. But how many schools are there in the world, and how many are NOT teaching Pharo? Look at the United States and Canada, for example. Despite the evangelizing efforts so far, the needle hasn't moved for Smalltalk. At least, not in any way measurable to the public. At some point, one has to ask, "is this working?", and if not, "how can we do things differently?" Why are you afraid to ask these questions? Smalltalk is not a religion. The goal is not to conquer all programmers, nor all programming tasks. But increasing the breadth of applicability so that Smalltalk benefits more of the IT world is surely a worthy ambition. *Right now, it's barely a blip on the radar of most businesses.* That can't be a satisfactory state of affairs. In terms of this discussion, yes, size is everything. Smalltalk's library ecosystem is demonstrably weak. (I dare you to ask me to provide an example.) Why is this okay? A strong ecosystem would make Smalltalk/Pharo much more useful to many more people in the IT world. And how do you build a strong ecosystem? By growing the user community sufficiently large. We've seen this scenario play out over and over and over again...with Python...with Java...with JavaScript...with Scala...and soon with Go. That's why popularity matters. Please, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm trying to change the direction of an ocean liner because I believe it's not moving in the right direction. Obviously, this is a monumental task. One last point: If Stephan's Wardley maps have been used by Pharo recently, then I submit they haven't had the desired effects. Unless Pharo's status quo *is* the desired outcome, in which case, I find that sad. -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866783.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Hello, This is free software Darwin evolution :) If you like Pharo Smalltalk, and it looks like you like it, you need to find your place in the Pharo ecosystem and see where you can add value to the ecosystem. You seem to like advocating, so please continue! This is marketing for Pharo for free, and it can just add visibility or attraction to Pharo, and hopefully help to grow the community. Just be sure to use the right arguments. You like to punch from time to time in the Pharo community, for me it is ok, after all we should have thick skin and strong arguments when using Pharo and not a main stream language About direction of the Pharo development, I guess you already know the free software golden rule expressed by L. Torvalds: "Talk is cheap. Show me the code." So without revealing your own code contribution, your preach on development orientation are useless and you should not waste your time there, or at least not too much. I am myself not always happy with Pharo direction, but as a minor contributor I don't fell legitimate to punch that much, and I adapt myself. Continue on advocating! You will have more fun there. You could write in detail about success stories with Pharo. What about starting with Dr. Geo (http://drgeo.eu) and writing an article about it, I need help to get visibility, especially I am not a native English speaker. Thanks Hilaire Le 13/12/2015 06:10, horrido a écrit :
Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying to steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation is objective, *not defamatory*. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I look for possible solutions.
It is precisely because of limited funding and influence that a group such as yours should be more creative and openminded in how to advance the cause of Smalltalk. For example, I have no resources whatsoever, but in my own way, I've tried hard to advocate for Smalltalk using a marketing strategy. I use whatever is available to me /for free/. I publish articles that are sometimes controversial, but always thought-provoking. *They draw attention to Smalltalk.* They spur debate. Ultimately, the goal is to get people to /think/ about Smalltalk. Otherwise, it gets forgotten. Out of sight, out of mind.
Okay, it's good that Pharo is being taught in some schools. But how many schools are there in the world, and how many are NOT teaching Pharo? Look at the United States and Canada, for example. Despite the evangelizing efforts so far, the needle hasn't moved for Smalltalk. At least, not in any way measurable to the public. At some point, one has to ask, "is this working?", and if not, "how can we do things differently?" Why are you afraid to ask these questions?
Smalltalk is not a religion. The goal is not to conquer all programmers, nor all programming tasks. But increasing the breadth of applicability so that Smalltalk benefits more of the IT world is surely a worthy ambition. *Right now, it's barely a blip on the radar of most businesses.* That can't be a satisfactory state of affairs.
In terms of this discussion, yes, size is everything. Smalltalk's library ecosystem is demonstrably weak. (I dare you to ask me to provide an example.) Why is this okay? A strong ecosystem would make Smalltalk/Pharo much more useful to many more people in the IT world.
And how do you build a strong ecosystem? By growing the user community sufficiently large. We've seen this scenario play out over and over and over again...with Python...with Java...with JavaScript...with Scala...and soon with Go. That's why popularity matters.
Please, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm trying to change the direction of an ocean liner because I believe it's not moving in the right direction. Obviously, this is a monumental task.
One last point: If Stephan's Wardley maps have been used by Pharo recently, then I submit they haven't had the desired effects. Unless Pharo's status quo *is* the desired outcome, in which case, I find that sad.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866783.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu
why don't you spend the time to write such mails into - writing tutorial or - just improving class comments of the well-known classs (such as set, dictionary, booleans, strings), - create videos you would have already an impact. Now you are shouting in the desert and people will just put you on their black list. Stef
bingo !!! +1.000.000.000 The problem is that there is so much hype about marketing thats easy to miss the enormous fact that languages like C, C++, Java and Python are not as popular as they are even with their big flaws without substance , without solving some serious problem that requires serious resources . Foremosts those languages have been evolving for decades , take Python and I am NOT talking the language itself I am talking the most popular python implementation and the oldest , CPython, its 24 years. Let me repeat this... CPython IS 24 years OLD !!!! There is none smalltalk implementation that I am aware of that has been actively developed for so long even though smalltalk as a language is far older than that. Now imagine where Pharo will be in 24 years.... wow.... it blows my mind just trying to imagine. And by the way Python had ZERO marketing , ZERO!!!! Zero funds, zero .... no money.... nada..... nothing Just one dude working his ass off to make a great language for scripting C projects. So in the end its all hard work, as it should be . So back to work improving Pharo :) On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 12:17 PM stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
why don't you spend the time to write such mails into - writing tutorial or - just improving class comments of the well-known classs (such as set, dictionary, booleans, strings), - create videos you would have already an impact. Now you are shouting in the desert and people will just put you on their black list.
Stef
Python has some books with animals on the cover. In the good old days, this mattered :-) Phil On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
bingo !!! +1.000.000.000
The problem is that there is so much hype about marketing thats easy to miss the enormous fact that languages like C, C++, Java and Python are not as popular as they are even with their big flaws without substance , without solving some serious problem that requires serious resources . Foremosts those languages have been evolving for decades , take Python
and I am NOT talking the language itself I am talking the most popular python implementation and the oldest , CPython, its 24 years.
Let me repeat this...
CPython IS 24 years OLD !!!!
There is none smalltalk implementation that I am aware of that has been actively developed for so long even though smalltalk as a language is far older than that.
Now imagine where Pharo will be in 24 years.... wow.... it blows my mind just trying to imagine.
And by the way Python had ZERO marketing , ZERO!!!! Zero funds, zero .... no money.... nada..... nothing
Just one dude working his ass off to make a great language for scripting C projects.
So in the end its all hard work, as it should be .
So back to work improving Pharo :)
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 12:17 PM stepharo <stepharo@free.fr> wrote:
why don't you spend the time to write such mails into - writing tutorial or - just improving class comments of the well-known classs (such as set, dictionary, booleans, strings), - create videos you would have already an impact. Now you are shouting in the desert and people will just put you on their black list.
Stef
Python was in the doldrums for the first 13 years of its life. Then, it exploded onto the scene in 2004 (according to TIOBE). Was this because of continuing improvements to CPython during those 13 years? Really? JavaScript has been around since 1995, but what made it the darling of the web in the past 5 years? Hard work? What hard work? (Serendipitously, Google launched AngularJS in 2009. Maybe this was the impetus?) What about Ruby? Twenty years old, it only exploded onto the scene in 2006. What did Rubyists do in the first 11 years to cause this jump in popularity? If it all came down to hard work, then why didn't Haskell and Erlang and D rise to the top? Are those communities made of laggards and deadbeats? Of course, we should work hard to improve the platform. However, that by itself is no guarantee people will adopt it. Python's success was *serendipitous*, to be sure. To suggest that it was inevitable because of all the work done to improve CPython is not clear. kilon.alios wrote
bingo !!! +1.000.000.000
The problem is that there is so much hype about marketing thats easy to miss the enormous fact that languages like C, C++, Java and Python are not as popular as they are even with their big flaws without substance , without solving some serious problem that requires serious resources . Foremosts those languages have been evolving for decades , take Python
and I am NOT talking the language itself I am talking the most popular python implementation and the oldest , CPython, its 24 years.
Let me repeat this...
CPython IS 24 years OLD !!!!
There is none smalltalk implementation that I am aware of that has been actively developed for so long even though smalltalk as a language is far older than that.
Now imagine where Pharo will be in 24 years.... wow.... it blows my mind just trying to imagine.
And by the way Python had ZERO marketing , ZERO!!!! Zero funds, zero .... no money.... nada..... nothing
Just one dude working his ass off to make a great language for scripting C projects.
So in the end its all hard work, as it should be .
So back to work improving Pharo :)
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 12:17 PM stepharo <
stepharo@
> wrote:
why don't you spend the time to write such mails into - writing tutorial or - just improving class comments of the well-known classs (such as set, dictionary, booleans, strings), - create videos you would have already an impact. Now you are shouting in the desert and people will just put you on their black list.
Stef
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866826.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I /did/ write a Smalltalk tutorial: A Gentle Introduction to Amber <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/a-gentle-introduction-to-amber-8c532631e9a...> . It's not as if Pharo needs one. I'm prepared to write a Redline tutorial, if and when James Ladd gets around to completing Redline. stepharo wrote
why don't you spend the time to write such mails into - writing tutorial or - just improving class comments of the well-known classs (such as set, dictionary, booleans, strings), - create videos you would have already an impact. Now you are shouting in the desert and people will just put you on their black list.
Stef
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866808.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 13-12-15 06:10, horrido wrote:
Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying to steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation is objective, *not defamatory*. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I look for possible solutions.
I see you trying to steer without situational awareness. The great goal is clear, but there are bumps on the road and there is no direct road to Rome. Your analysis of the situation is superficial and not helpful. Marketing is most effective if it is aligned with strategy. I was serious about you having to make those Wardley maps. It all starts with user needs. Take a look at where new smalltalkers can come from (students, old smalltalkers using something else, software reengineering specialists, people from small languages who want an IDE for it, people dissatisfied with their current large community language, etc), make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their needs might be. Do the same for the people in our community (Researchers, independent developers, small group in a large high-tech company, legacy smalltalk group etc). To understand and explain why and when they might be persuaded to use smalltalk, read Mary Lynn Manns & Linda Rising, Fearless Change, Patterns for introducing new ideas Geoffrey A. Moore, Crossing the Chasm and possibly Mack Hanan & Peter Karp, Competing on Value From those user needs, make Wardley maps breaking down user needs in technology and community needs, making them more and more concrete. Identify what we support, where there are gaps and overlap, and what changes to expect. Then decide where you can with minimal effort have the most impact and focus your marketing message there, using a positive story. Measure impact, see what changed and repeat. Stephan
That's an *enormous* amount of work!!! No wonder it hasn't been done yet. I did identify one thing: get high school students (i.e., young people) interested in Smalltalk. That's why I tried (and failed) to launch the Canadian Smalltalk Competition. You should understand that I put a LOT of work into this, *a great deal of sweat and tears*. You have no idea. (Just ask David Buck of Simberon.) I'm only one person; I can only do so much by myself. And unfortunately, I'm coming to the end of the line. Stephan Eggermont wrote
On 13-12-15 06:10, horrido wrote:
Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying to steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation is objective, *not defamatory*. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I look for possible solutions.
I see you trying to steer without situational awareness. The great goal is clear, but there are bumps on the road and there is no direct road to Rome. Your analysis of the situation is superficial and not helpful.
Marketing is most effective if it is aligned with strategy. I was serious about you having to make those Wardley maps. It all starts with user needs. Take a look at where new smalltalkers can come from (students, old smalltalkers using something else, software reengineering specialists, people from small languages who want an IDE for it, people dissatisfied with their current large community language, etc), make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their needs might be. Do the same for the people in our community (Researchers, independent developers, small group in a large high-tech company, legacy smalltalk group etc).
To understand and explain why and when they might be persuaded to use smalltalk, read Mary Lynn Manns & Linda Rising, Fearless Change, Patterns for introducing new ideas Geoffrey A. Moore, Crossing the Chasm and possibly Mack Hanan & Peter Karp, Competing on Value
From those user needs, make Wardley maps breaking down user needs in technology and community needs, making them more and more concrete. Identify what we support, where there are gaps and overlap, and what changes to expect.
Then decide where you can with minimal effort have the most impact and focus your marketing message there, using a positive story. Measure impact, see what changed and repeat.
Stephan
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866813.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Le 13/12/2015 15:13, horrido a écrit :
I did identify one thing: get high school students (i.e., young people) interested in Smalltalk. That's why I tried (and failed) to launch the Canadian Smalltalk Competition. You should understand that I put a LOT of Did you check out what can be done for/with high school students with Dr. Geo, the Pharo interactive geometry application?
Please take a look to the link below, in the second part of the document you have demos about interactive programming with Smalltalk to build mathematics models suited to senior high students http://forum.drgeo.eu/What-s-new-in-Dr-Geo-recently-tp4024786.html Many more fun models are easily do-able, but I am short in time there this recent months. Thanks Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu
On 13-12-15 15:13, horrido wrote:
That's an *enormous* amount of work!!! No wonder it hasn't been done yet.
Indeed.On the other hand, it doesn't need to be perfect. It is much better done in short iterations. The understanding comes from going through this process often and with many different people. Just try it with current java developers and try to identify a segment that would be interested in smalltalk, and see what story we should tell to get some people in that segment to try it out.
I did identify one thing: get high school students (i.e., young people) interested in Smalltalk. That's why I tried (and failed) to launch the Canadian Smalltalk Competition. You should understand that I put a LOT of work into this, *a great deal of sweat and tears*. You have no idea. (Just ask David Buck of Simberon.)
The hope when improving situational awareness is to provide you with marketing opportunities that take less work (each). The amount of time and money that can be quickly spend on marketing is enormous. We are playing the long game, it is essential that you create enough small successes for yourself to stay motivated. Stephan
Just to say that Stephan expressed very eloquently my thoughts !
On Dec 13, 2015, at 08:41, Stephan Eggermont <stephan@stack.nl> wrote:
On 13-12-15 06:10, horrido wrote:
Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying to steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation is objective, *not defamatory*. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I look for possible solutions.
I see you trying to steer without situational awareness. The great goal is clear, but there are bumps on the road and there is no direct road to Rome. Your analysis of the situation is superficial and not helpful.
Marketing is most effective if it is aligned with strategy. I was serious about you having to make those Wardley maps. It all starts with user needs. Take a look at where new smalltalkers can come from (students, old smalltalkers using something else, software reengineering specialists, people from small languages who want an IDE for it, people dissatisfied with their current large community language, etc), make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their needs might be. Do the same for the people in our community (Researchers, independent developers, small group in a large high-tech company, legacy smalltalk group etc).
To understand and explain why and when they might be persuaded to use smalltalk, read Mary Lynn Manns & Linda Rising, Fearless Change, Patterns for introducing new ideas Geoffrey A. Moore, Crossing the Chasm and possibly Mack Hanan & Peter Karp, Competing on Value
From those user needs, make Wardley maps breaking down user needs in technology and community needs, making them more and more concrete. Identify what we support, where there are gaps and overlap, and what changes to expect.
Then decide where you can with minimal effort have the most impact and focus your marketing message there, using a positive story. Measure impact, see what changed and repeat.
Stephan
---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD and RyCh labs - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile
I think I asked this before (at the start of the year), but if I were given an actual real-world *enterprise* customer /whom I could interview/ to get the *full story* of how they came to use Smalltalk, especially if they were coming from a major language such as Java, and what their particular corporate issues were that compelled them to look for a better solution, then I could run with it and write a lengthy story highlighting the unique advantages of Smalltalk in solving these issues. It would be a huge marketing tool /because readers (hopefully, enterprise users) could identify with the story/ and see themselves following the same trajectory toward Smalltalk/Pharo. Perhaps somebody at ESUG or Pharo Consortium could provide such a reference? Stephan Eggermont wrote
make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their needs might be.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866868.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Am 14.12.2015 um 00:50 schrieb horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>:
I think I asked this before (at the start of the year), but if I were given an actual real-world *enterprise* customer /whom I could interview/ to get the *full story* of how they came to use Smalltalk, especially if they were coming from a major language such as Java, and what their particular corporate issues were that compelled them to look for a better solution, then I could run with it and write a lengthy story highlighting the unique advantages of Smalltalk in solving these issues. It would be a huge marketing tool /because readers (hopefully, enterprise users) could identify with the story/ and see themselves following the same trajectory toward Smalltalk/Pharo.
Perhaps somebody at ESUG or Pharo Consortium could provide such a reference?
http://m.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/1978739/jpmorgan-makes-smalltalk-development-su... Norbert
Stephan Eggermont wrote
make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their needs might be.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866868.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
On 14 Dec 2015, at 09:56, Norbert Hartl <norbert@hartl.name> wrote:
Am 14.12.2015 um 00:50 schrieb horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>:
I think I asked this before (at the start of the year), but if I were given an actual real-world *enterprise* customer /whom I could interview/ to get the *full story* of how they came to use Smalltalk, especially if they were coming from a major language such as Java, and what their particular corporate issues were that compelled them to look for a better solution, then I could run with it and write a lengthy story highlighting the unique advantages of Smalltalk in solving these issues. It would be a huge marketing tool /because readers (hopefully, enterprise users) could identify with the story/ and see themselves following the same trajectory toward Smalltalk/Pharo.
Perhaps somebody at ESUG or Pharo Consortium could provide such a reference?
http://m.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/1978739/jpmorgan-makes-smalltalk-development-su...
If you need 'big names': https://gemtalksystems.com/about/customers/ especially the OOCL story is huge (i.e. world wide scale), http://www.gemstone.com/pdf/OOCL_SuccessStory.pdf Now, let's go back to work to make all this possible, it won't happen by itself (improving Pharo and filling all those missing libraries).
Norbert
Stephan Eggermont wrote
make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their needs might be.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866868.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Wow, the article about JPMorgan is extremely thin in terms of details! Most of it is just marketing-speak. It's hard to write a meaningful piece with so little content. Is there anything else that provides substantial content??? NorbertHartl wrote
Am 14.12.2015 um 00:50 schrieb horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
>:
I think I asked this before (at the start of the year), but if I were given an actual real-world *enterprise* customer /whom I could interview/ to get the *full story* of how they came to use Smalltalk, especially if they were coming from a major language such as Java, and what their particular corporate issues were that compelled them to look for a better solution, then I could run with it and write a lengthy story highlighting the unique advantages of Smalltalk in solving these issues. It would be a huge marketing tool /because readers (hopefully, enterprise users) could identify with the story/ and see themselves following the same trajectory toward Smalltalk/Pharo.
Perhaps somebody at ESUG or Pharo Consortium could provide such a reference?
http://m.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/1978739/jpmorgan-makes-smalltalk-development-su...
Norbert
Stephan Eggermont wrote
make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their needs might be.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866868.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4867015.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
2015-12-14 13:57 GMT-03:00 horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com>:
Wow, the article about JPMorgan is extremely thin in terms of details! Most of it is just marketing-speak. It's hard to write a meaningful piece with so little content.
Is there anything else that provides substantial content???
JP Morgan tried to replace most of their Smalltalk code since then, and after many failed attempts they migrated most of the Kapital system to Python, except for the exotics derivatives software, they failed on every attempt. It seems to be too complex and very well solved with the current implementation in Smalltalk. JPMC have thousands of developers and ~100 of them develop with Smalltalk on a VisualWorks+GemBuilder+GemStone/S software. Regards! Esteban A. Maringolo
Too bad JPMorgan didn't stick with Smalltalk. It seems that most of the big success stories come from the 1990s and perhaps early 2000s. It would be *real nice* to have a big success story from the last 10 years; otherwise, it's hard to counter the notion that Smalltalk is hardly used any more. Given what I have to work with, I could only come up with this <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/who-uses-smalltalk-c6fdaa6319a> . It's a little apologetic, but what can I do? Esteban A. Maringolo wrote
2015-12-14 13:57 GMT-03:00 horrido <
horrido.hobbies@
>:
Wow, the article about JPMorgan is extremely thin in terms of details! Most of it is just marketing-speak. It's hard to write a meaningful piece with so little content.
Is there anything else that provides substantial content???
JP Morgan tried to replace most of their Smalltalk code since then, and after many failed attempts they migrated most of the Kapital system to Python, except for the exotics derivatives software, they failed on every attempt. It seems to be too complex and very well solved with the current implementation in Smalltalk.
JPMC have thousands of developers and ~100 of them develop with Smalltalk on a VisualWorks+GemBuilder+GemStone/S software.
Regards!
Esteban A. Maringolo
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4867050.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
kilon.alios wrote
I think that is why its difficult to bring pharo to diffirent platforms, the mentality of pharo and mentality of smalltalk is so specific that does not fit easily into other platforms.
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 5:45 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention.
This mentality says that "if you build it, they will come."
Yes they are coming... http://consortium.pharo.org/
Keep improving the platform and eventually people will find it. **Or not.** You don't really care. (As an aside, **how** will they find it???)
This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The tool is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while they're welcome to join, *will not be missed if they go elsewhere*.
This mentality says that the *size* of the Pharo community is not especially important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as *you're* having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality is that **a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community that grows large enough to support it**.
But fast growth also has its problems... https://www.groovehq.com/blog/scaling Particularly see point 1) "Scaling Shifts Your Teamâs Focus" I believe Pharo is still in a stage where it needs a lot of agility. IF there was suddenly a large influx of newbies, then EITHER: * the experts spend *all* their time answering newbie questions and not moving the platform forward (with a wider pool of disruptive opinions) OR... * the newbies are ignored, get a bad experience, leave, and then "tell everyone else about it". Currently early adopters of Pharo get the benefit of great support from a direct line with the experts, which enhances their good experience which they can report to others. However it takes time to grow a community to have a range of middle experience levels to buffer the experts so they can continue to do *real* work to drive the platform forward. No matter how much you do on marketing, you can't get away from the reality that sustainable *community* growth takes time.
In other words, until the user community reaches **critical mass**, a strong library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the breadth of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited.
But you don't reach critical mass until the library ecosystem is sufficient for the masses. Its catch-22. This "bring them and they will build it" has similar trouble as you concern against "build it and the will come". But if you can serve some limited domains very well, maybe you get enough funds to provide time to build a broader library ecosystem. http://www.inc.com/karl-and-bill/build-your-business-one-customer-at-a-time.... cheers -ben
"Fast growth has its problems." I don't think we need to worry about that. Even if we're successful with a marketing campaign, it will take time to aggregate substantial numbers of new Smalltalkers. It may take years to reach the top 20 on Redmond. (We should be so lucky to have this problem.) Building an ecosystem is not about funding. Developers (and businesses) write new and useful libraries out of need *when they choose to use your programming language*. Ask yourself this: Smalltalk, in its various flavours, has been used commercially for more than three decades. After all this time, why are there still useful libraries missing, libraries that you find in the Java and Python worlds? Can you honestly tell me that over the next 5-10 years, we'll see the gaps in our library ecosystem filled in? I wouldn't bet my lunch money... Ben Coman wrote
This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The tool is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while they're welcome to join, *will not be missed if they go elsewhere*.
This mentality says that the *size* of the Pharo community is not especially important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as *you're* having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality is that **a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community that grows large enough to support it**.
But fast growth also has its problems... https://www.groovehq.com/blog/scaling
Particularly see point 1) "Scaling Shifts Your Teamâs Focus" I believe Pharo is still in a stage where it needs a lot of agility. IF there was suddenly a large influx of newbies, then EITHER: * the experts spend *all* their time answering newbie questions and not moving the platform forward (with a wider pool of disruptive opinions) OR... * the newbies are ignored, get a bad experience, leave, and then "tell everyone else about it".
Currently early adopters of Pharo get the benefit of great support from a direct line with the experts, which enhances their good experience which they can report to others. However it takes time to grow a community to have a range of middle experience levels to buffer the experts so they can continue to do *real* work to drive the platform forward. No matter how much you do on marketing, you can't get away from the reality that sustainable *community* growth takes time.
In other words, until the user community reaches **critical mass**, a strong library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the breadth of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited.
But you don't reach critical mass until the library ecosystem is sufficient for the masses. Its catch-22. This "bring them and they will build it" has similar trouble as you concern against "build it and the will come".
But if you can serve some limited domains very well, maybe you get enough funds to provide time to build a broader library ecosystem. http://www.inc.com/karl-and-bill/build-your-business-one-customer-at-a-time....
cheers -ben
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866835.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Le 12/12/2015 12:51, Dimitris Chloupis a écrit :
Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well.
On Android its still a work in progress but its improving
WIP but you can already get it working Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.drgeo.android Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu
Excerpts from Hilaire's message of 2015-12-13 09:38:33 +0100:
Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years
is there any description about the process involved in porting a pharo application to android? what do i need, how do i start? i am tentatively working on a desktop application, that in the long term i would like to see on the mobile phone, and i'd appreciate any insights and starting points on how this is done. greetings, martin. -- eKita - the online platform for your entire academic life -- chief engineer eKita.co pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se caudium.net societyserver.org secretary beijinglug.org mentor fossasia.org foresight developer foresightlinux.org realss.com unix sysadmin Martin Bähr working in china http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
Yeah I am interesting to this too, I was not aware Dr. Geo was on Android thats great news. Hilaire why I cannot find Dr. Geo for my iPad mini ? Just got an iPad mini as my Christmas present to myself :) I would love to see a blog post by you how to get Pharo working on Android and iOS . Any pointers ? On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:35 PM Martin Bähr < mbaehr@email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
Excerpts from Hilaire's message of 2015-12-13 09:38:33 +0100:
Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years
is there any description about the process involved in porting a pharo application to android? what do i need, how do i start?
i am tentatively working on a desktop application, that in the long term i would like to see on the mobile phone, and i'd appreciate any insights and starting points on how this is done.
greetings, martin.
-- eKita - the online platform for your entire academic life -- chief engineer eKita.co pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se caudium.net societyserver.org secretary beijinglug.org mentor fossasia.org foresight developer foresightlinux.org realss.com unix sysadmin Martin Bähr working in china http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
For iPad, it is gone because I did not renew my developer license, so Apple remove it from the store. Sorry sorry :( Concerning DrGeo on Android, I mostly forgot all the details to build it as I did not update it since a couple of years (3 years). Historically Dmitri Golubuvsky helped me a lot to build it [1]. But I don't think he's working on it anymore. Later Jannick Laval asked me how I did the DrGeo for android, he wanted to try for Pratch, he wrote some notes you may find useful [2] You may want to check the former source repository containing Android package for Dr. Geo, I just open its access for you [3] You may need the event VM glue code[4], not sure this is the most recent one. I am just writing from memory, so I may forget some key points. However, in the long term a lot will have change in Pharo on Android: - What I did was before Athens, I don't think Athens is working now on Android - Bloc will very likely replace Morph, and it may be the think to use for Android perspective. Hilaire [1] https://code.google.com/p/squeakvm-tablet/w/list [2] http://www.phratch.com/archives/408 [3] https://gforge.inria.fr/scm/browser.php?group_id=1308 [4] http://www.squeaksource.com/EventVM.html Le 13/12/2015 16:24, Dimitris Chloupis a écrit :
Yeah I am interesting to this too, I was not aware Dr. Geo was on Android thats great news.
Hilaire why I cannot find Dr. Geo for my iPad mini ? Just got an iPad mini as my Christmas present to myself :)
I would love to see a blog post by you how to get Pharo working on Android and iOS . Any pointers ?
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:35 PM Martin Bähr <mbaehr@email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at <mailto:mbaehr@email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at>> wrote:
Excerpts from Hilaire's message of 2015-12-13 09:38:33 +0100: > Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years
is there any description about the process involved in porting a pharo application to android? what do i need, how do i start?
i am tentatively working on a desktop application, that in the long term i would like to see on the mobile phone, and i'd appreciate any insights and starting points on how this is done.
greetings, martin.
-- eKita - the online platform for your entire academic life -- chief engineer eKita.co pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se <http://pike.lysator.liu.se> caudium.net <http://caudium.net> societyserver.org <http://societyserver.org> secretary beijinglug.org <http://beijinglug.org> mentor fossasia.org <http://fossasia.org> foresight developer foresightlinux.org <http://foresightlinux.org> realss.com <http://realss.com> unix sysadmin Martin Bähr working in china http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu
Thank you very much , I will study them one by one :) On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 5:31 PM Hilaire <hilaire@drgeo.eu> wrote:
For iPad, it is gone because I did not renew my developer license, so Apple remove it from the store. Sorry sorry :(
Concerning DrGeo on Android, I mostly forgot all the details to build it as I did not update it since a couple of years (3 years). Historically Dmitri Golubuvsky helped me a lot to build it [1]. But I don't think he's working on it anymore. Later Jannick Laval asked me how I did the DrGeo for android, he wanted to try for Pratch, he wrote some notes you may find useful [2]
You may want to check the former source repository containing Android package for Dr. Geo, I just open its access for you [3] You may need the event VM glue code[4], not sure this is the most recent one. I am just writing from memory, so I may forget some key points.
However, in the long term a lot will have change in Pharo on Android: - What I did was before Athens, I don't think Athens is working now on Android - Bloc will very likely replace Morph, and it may be the think to use for Android perspective.
Hilaire
[1] https://code.google.com/p/squeakvm-tablet/w/list [2] http://www.phratch.com/archives/408 [3] https://gforge.inria.fr/scm/browser.php?group_id=1308 [4] http://www.squeaksource.com/EventVM.html
Le 13/12/2015 16:24, Dimitris Chloupis a écrit :
Yeah I am interesting to this too, I was not aware Dr. Geo was on Android thats great news.
Hilaire why I cannot find Dr. Geo for my iPad mini ? Just got an iPad mini as my Christmas present to myself :)
I would love to see a blog post by you how to get Pharo working on Android and iOS . Any pointers ?
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:35 PM Martin Bähr <mbaehr@email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at <mailto:mbaehr@email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at>> wrote:
Excerpts from Hilaire's message of 2015-12-13 09:38:33 +0100: > Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years
is there any description about the process involved in porting a pharo application to android? what do i need, how do i start?
i am tentatively working on a desktop application, that in the long term i would like to see on the mobile phone, and i'd appreciate any insights and starting points on how this is done.
greetings, martin.
-- eKita - the online platform for your entire academic life -- chief engineer eKita.co pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se <http://pike.lysator.liu.se> caudium.net <http://caudium.net> societyserver.org <http://societyserver.org> secretary beijinglug.org <http://beijinglug.org> mentor fossasia.org <http://fossasia.org> foresight developer foresightlinux.org <http://foresightlinux.org> realss.com <http://realss.com> unix sysadmin Martin Bähr working in china http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
-- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu
Excerpts from Dimitris Chloupis's message of 2015-12-13 19:37:30 +0100:
Thank you very much , I will study them one by one :)
thank you from me too. i won't be able to work on this soon (need to get the desktop app ready first, which won't happen before the next GSoC, (but it might happen as part of it)) but i appreciate this information being available. greetings, martin. -- eKita - the online platform for your entire academic life -- chief engineer eKita.co pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se caudium.net societyserver.org secretary beijinglug.org mentor fossasia.org foresight developer foresightlinux.org realss.com unix sysadmin Martin Bähr working in china http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/
Where do I get this? I have to say I kind of think Pharo is missing the boat with regards to mobile devices. There is a huge demand for a mobile development platform that allows one to write a mobile app that runs the same on Android and iOS.
On Dec 12, 2015, at 03:51, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
Pharo can already run on iOS
I thought so, too, which is why I wrote this tutorial <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/amber-alert-we-can-do-mobile-apps-34b2d4d3...> for app development. However, there is some question surrounding Amber's viability in the longer term. And the demand for cross-platform apps may not be as big as we believe... tblanchard wrote
Where do I get this?
I have to say I kind of think Pharo is missing the boat with regards to mobile devices. There is a huge demand for a mobile development platform that allows one to write a mobile app that runs the same on Android and iOS.
On Dec 12, 2015, at 03:51, Dimitris Chloupis <
kilon.alios@
> wrote:
Pharo can already run on iOS
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866874.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
I've shipped several cordova/phonegap apps. It can work for a certain level of simplicity - but browser based apps don't scratch my itch. I would be more interested in being able to develop a browser based app in Pharo and deploy it to a phone or tablet.
On Dec 13, 2015, at 17:13, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
I thought so, too, which is why I wrote this tutorial <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/amber-alert-we-can-do-mobile-apps-34b2d4d3...> for app development. However, there is some question surrounding Amber's viability in the longer term.
Todd, have you investigated using Squeak/Pharo at the back-end and Amber at the front end? That's where I'm currently targetting my development work. On 14 December 2015 at 01:59, Todd Blanchard <tblanchard@mac.com> wrote:
I've shipped several cordova/phonegap apps.
It can work for a certain level of simplicity - but browser based apps don't scratch my itch. I would be more interested in being able to develop a browser based app in Pharo and deploy it to a phone or tablet.
On Dec 13, 2015, at 17:13, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
I thought so, too, which is why I wrote this tutorial <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/amber-alert-we-can-do-mobile-apps-34b2d4d3...> for app development. However, there is some question surrounding Amber's viability in the longer term.
I think the market for cross-platform apps is large - but the market for apps that you can't sell is small. Being able to sell the cross-platform apps via the iOS and Android app stores is key, imo. As it is, I target Nintendo 2DS & 3DS, and Blackberry tablet and all Windows as well as iPads, iPhones, Android phones and Android tablets. Bit I still hanker after Cordova just to target the iPhone store. Plus iPhone deals with web-sites awkwardly. You have to present as native, *or* the user has to bookmark each individual page they use. On 14 December 2015 at 01:13, horrido <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
I thought so, too, which is why I wrote this tutorial <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/amber-alert-we-can-do-mobile-apps-34b2d4d3...> for app development. However, there is some question surrounding Amber's viability in the longer term.
And the demand for cross-platform apps may not be as big as we believe...
tblanchard wrote
Where do I get this?
I have to say I kind of think Pharo is missing the boat with regards to mobile devices. There is a huge demand for a mobile development platform that allows one to write a mobile app that runs the same on Android and iOS.
On Dec 12, 2015, at 03:51, Dimitris Chloupis <
kilon.alios@
> wrote:
Pharo can already run on iOS
-- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866874.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
As a person who has posted video of Squeak and Pharo running on Raspberry Pi, I have to disagree with teh statement "Pharo can already run on ... Raspberry PI and works well.". Squeak works well on the Pi, in my experience. It's about an order-of-magnitude more responsive to user input than Pharo, at present. On 12 December 2015 at 11:51, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well.
On Android its still a work in progress but its improving
On web you can already can use pharo for both the backend (server) and front end (browser-javascript-html-css)
So Pharo has already spread on all major platforms , with the exception of Android where there is still work to be done to make it usable. In the dev list there was already an announcement for hiring a developer for one year to work on the Android. So Android is a matter of time too.
For anyone that really cares about JVM in general as I already posted he/she can take JNIPort and improve it anyway he/she wants.
Its not hard to create support for other languages if one wants to. I created support for python, another dude created support for R programming language who followed a similar approach to mine.
But we all have personal reasons and needs for using pharo with other programming languages, I use it to script Blender the 3d application that happens to use python as its scripting language, other may use R for mathematical computations, other do web development, others want to make Android apps and so forth.
Its impossible with such small community to fit the needs of every user of pharo or potential user, so it wont happen until like me you are ready to get your hands dirty to make Pharo work well for you. Else you are better coding in other language .
On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero <ajaczgz@yahoo.es> wrote:
Hello
The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java.
The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no phones nor phablets).
Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero ________________________________ De: Dimitris Chloupis Enviado: â12/â12/â2015 10:25 Para: Any question about pharo is welcome Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM
Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont even make the top 20.
I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely alive.
The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess.
Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides to embrace JVM or JS as platforms.
And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort
https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition
I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code.
Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message.
Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on.
On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.)
It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be well-suited.
(I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple syntax is very, very important!)
I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress.
Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on putting Pharo on the JVM?
I've always thought that squeak should have a set of measured, communicated emotional layer, but inverted. Measure a positive number that is better when it grows, instead of bad. The system could react to that measure, like it's gambling. That would go in the half-layer of the 9 1/2 layer stack. The half is nexxt to the eighth market/cloud layer, below the 9th meta layer. It is the control layer. Every flow network needs a control layer in control theory. Pi 2 or zero with some boards would be something. regards, robert On 12/13/2015 11:48 PM, EuanM wrote:
As a person who has posted video of Squeak and Pharo running on Raspberry Pi, I have to disagree with teh statement "Pharo can already run on ... Raspberry PI and works well.".
Squeak works well on the Pi, in my experience. It's about an order-of-magnitude more responsive to user input than Pharo, at present.
On 12 December 2015 at 11:51, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well.
On Android its still a work in progress but its improving
On web you can already can use pharo for both the backend (server) and front end (browser-javascript-html-css)
So Pharo has already spread on all major platforms , with the exception of Android where there is still work to be done to make it usable. In the dev list there was already an announcement for hiring a developer for one year to work on the Android. So Android is a matter of time too.
For anyone that really cares about JVM in general as I already posted he/she can take JNIPort and improve it anyway he/she wants.
Its not hard to create support for other languages if one wants to. I created support for python, another dude created support for R programming language who followed a similar approach to mine.
But we all have personal reasons and needs for using pharo with other programming languages, I use it to script Blender the 3d application that happens to use python as its scripting language, other may use R for mathematical computations, other do web development, others want to make Android apps and so forth.
Its impossible with such small community to fit the needs of every user of pharo or potential user, so it wont happen until like me you are ready to get your hands dirty to make Pharo work well for you. Else you are better coding in other language .
On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero <ajaczgz@yahoo.es> wrote:
Hello
The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java.
The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no phones nor phablets).
Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero ________________________________ De: Dimitris Chloupis Enviado: â12/â12/â2015 10:25 Para: Any question about pharo is welcome Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM
Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont even make the top 20.
I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely alive.
The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess.
Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides to embrace JVM or JS as platforms.
And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort
https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition
I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code.
Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message.
Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on.
On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.)
It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be well-suited.
(I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple syntax is very, very important!)
I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress.
Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on putting Pharo on the JVM?
That's was it: sanguinity. On 12/14/2015 12:18 AM, Robert Withers wrote:
I've always thought that squeak should have a set of measured, communicated emotional layer, but inverted. Measure a positive number that is better when it grows, instead of bad. The system could react to that measure, like it's gambling.
That would go in the half-layer of the 9 1/2 layer stack. The half is nexxt to the eighth market/cloud layer, below the 9th meta layer. It is the control layer. Every flow network needs a control layer in control theory.
Pi 2 or zero with some boards would be something.
regards, robert
On 12/13/2015 11:48 PM, EuanM wrote:
As a person who has posted video of Squeak and Pharo running on Raspberry Pi, I have to disagree with teh statement "Pharo can already run on ... Raspberry PI and works well.".
Squeak works well on the Pi, in my experience. It's about an order-of-magnitude more responsive to user input than Pharo, at present.
On 12 December 2015 at 11:51, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> wrote:
Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well.
On Android its still a work in progress but its improving
On web you can already can use pharo for both the backend (server) and front end (browser-javascript-html-css)
So Pharo has already spread on all major platforms , with the exception of Android where there is still work to be done to make it usable. In the dev list there was already an announcement for hiring a developer for one year to work on the Android. So Android is a matter of time too.
For anyone that really cares about JVM in general as I already posted he/she can take JNIPort and improve it anyway he/she wants.
Its not hard to create support for other languages if one wants to. I created support for python, another dude created support for R programming language who followed a similar approach to mine.
But we all have personal reasons and needs for using pharo with other programming languages, I use it to script Blender the 3d application that happens to use python as its scripting language, other may use R for mathematical computations, other do web development, others want to make Android apps and so forth.
Its impossible with such small community to fit the needs of every user of pharo or potential user, so it wont happen until like me you are ready to get your hands dirty to make Pharo work well for you. Else you are better coding in other language .
On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero <ajaczgz@yahoo.es> wrote:
Hello
The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java.
The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no phones nor phablets).
Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero ________________________________ De: Dimitris Chloupis Enviado: â12/â12/â2015 10:25 Para: Any question about pharo is welcome Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM
Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont even make the top 20.
I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely alive.
The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess.
Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides to embrace JVM or JS as platforms.
And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort
https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition
I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code.
Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message.
Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on.
On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.)
It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be well-suited.
(I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple syntax is very, very important!)
I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress.
Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on putting Pharo on the JVM?
Looks like there is Pharo engineer position that will take care of ARM. On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 12:30 PM, Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero < ajaczgz@yahoo.es> wrote:
Hello
The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java.
The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no phones nor phablets).
Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero ------------------------------ De: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail.com> Enviado: â12/â12/â2015 10:25 Para: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM
Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont even make the top 20.
I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely alive.
The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess.
Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides to embrace JVM or JS as platforms.
And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort
https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition
I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code.
Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message.
*Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. *
On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote:
According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will most likely name Java *Programming Language of the Year* for 2015. (Both languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.)
It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be well-suited.
(I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A clean, simple syntax is very, very important!)
I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress.
Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus on putting Pharo on the JVM?
participants (17)
-
Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero -
Ben Coman -
Dimitris Chloupis -
Esteban A. Maringolo -
EuanM -
Hilaire -
horrido -
Johan Fabry -
Martin Bähr -
Norbert Hartl -
phil＠highoctane.be -
Richard Eng
-
Robert Withers -
Stephan Eggermont -
stepharo -
Sven Van Caekenberghe -
Todd Blanchard