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Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code editors to code in Pharo

by Richard Sargent

isr wrote > I'm a long-time lurker on this list, and still more of an > intermediate-squeaker (is that a word?) rather than pharo (although I > have used this off and on since pharo-5), so I feel like a bit of an > imposter jumping into this thread (long-time lisper). Like you, I am primarily a lurker in the Pharo lists. Some of your comments below I agree with and some I don't. I hope can explain clearly enough why I don't. I've been fortunate enough to work in Smalltalk exclusively since late 1991. Each year that goes by sees me gain a new and deeper understanding. Things I thought I new well turn out to have much more to them than I previously thought, even after multiple "rinse and repeat" cycles. > That said, and without wishing to ruffle any feathers nor cause any > rancour (if I do, I apologise), may I humbly disagree with some of the > opinions mentioned by some certainly more accomplished Smalltalkers > than me. > > Sven said: >> Everybody is of course totally free to do whatever they want, but really, >> why the hell would you want to do that ? >> You lose so much by doing that, I do not even know where to start. >> A big part of what makes Pharo (or any Smalltalk) special is the IDE >> written in itself. > > Esteban said: >> Honestly, Pharo without the environment (and the âlive objectsâ approach) >> is just another dynamic language without much interest. > > There's a distinction between "how you enter source code" and "the > full live object environment" paradigm. > > No matter how you setup your smalltalk, at some point, you have to > talk to your system. Tell it to subclass Object because I want to add > a new class. Or add a new method to an existing class. Or just execute > this code right now, as is (Workspace/Playground). Etc, etc. The "system" isn't an object. It is a collaborative network of objects. You don't tell the /system/ to subclass Object, you tell /Object/ to define the subclass. To help provide a more complete context, let's go back to the beginning to what Goldberg and Robson said in their preface to /Smalltalk-80 The Language and Its Implementation/. "Smalltalk is designed so that every component in the system that is accessible to the user can be presented in a meaningful way for observation and manipulation." As developers, we are users and subject to the same goals and ambitions. Observation for us is navigating the code to understand while manipulation for us is producing new code (or changed code). But, keep in mind that the word manipulation means a lot more than just writing. > There are numerous text editor widgets sprinkled throughout > squeak/cuis/pharo's set of "tools" which enable you to do exactly that > - talk to the system. > > These various editor widgets distinguish themselves slightly by > binding Self to something convenient (in the browser, for example), > but other than that - they're just text widgets. > > The magic only happens once you take the text, and tell the system to > **do something with it**. Save, Do-it, print-it, etc. > > Up to that point, its just text. Dumb, simple, plain text. That's only true because you have chosen it to be. And that is the crux of this whole discussion. Dead bits are useless. Smalltalk is about live objects. (As I said, it took me a long time to really, deeply understand that. And I still see someone come along and prove me wrong. Wrong in the sense that I didn't understand it nearly as well as I thought. Someone shows the world an idea and my understanding takes an octave jump.) > So, in a real sense, does it matter where you enter that dumb, simple, > plain text? Yes, it does matter. When every keystroke changes the meaning of that "dumb, simple, plain text", yes, it matters. There are Smalltalk text editors that insert annotations into the text being presented to communicate information to you, from as simple as indicating a declared variable is unused or an expression references an undefined variable, to more complex concepts. There are Smalltalk editors that know what potential receivers implement selectors and variables (including globally accessible objects) matching what you have typed so far and can offer you suggestions, including spelling corrections, as you type. > As long as there is an immediate, simple, failsafe way to sending that > text to the system to "do something with me", then you still have the > same live environment. Surely? How can it be? Live, yes, for some definition of live. But, lively? Not so. (The people at feenk.com have shown an entirely new level of liveliness that I find simply fascinating. Each new thing rings with an echo of "What will they think of next?" coupled with "I can't wait to see what they think of next!".) > At that point, it doesn't matter (from the point of view of having a > "live system") whether the dumb, simple, plain text was initially > entered, from keyboard to screen, via the smalltalk process or another > external process. > > One can certainly argue that simple fileouts, editing, and filingin is > too clunky a process. But, for example, having a fuse filesystem > exporting the live contents of the class hierarchy: > > - every time you read "/Class-as-Dir/Method-as-file", the current > source is queried from the live smalltalk system > > - every time you write to that file the smalltalk system is updated > > Surely this would keep much of the same "liveness-in-spirit"? With the > added advantages of: > > - spreading a little of the cpu burden around the various cores > (although this isn't really a cpu-intensive task anyway, but this > might apply more if we had out-of-image graphical inspectors which > also communicated via fuse) > > - taking advantage of the **vastly** more advanced text editing > widgets available outside of pharo > > Certainly, this is what Craig Latta webdav system is trying to get at. > I think its an interesting area to explore, and does not in any way > distract from "liveness" or "smalltalk'iness". > > Ok, rant over :) > > > -- > Regards, > Imran Sher Rafique > > On Thu, 24 Jan 2019 at 05:54, Sven Van Caekenberghe < > sven@ > > wrote: >> >> >> >> > On 24 Jan 2019, at 12:10, Dimitris Chloupis < > kilon.alios@ > > wrote: >> > >> > Often we have users of emacs and vim that request a way to use their >> favorite shortcuts or features. Some even ask "Would not be nice if I >> could use my favorite code editor with Pharo ?" >> > >> > Actually not only you can do it, its also very easy. So the following >> video tutorial explains in the first 3 minutes how to do this and then >> spends another 10 min talking about how this could be automated to be >> completely automatic and instantaneous. >> > >> > https://youtu.be/3YfRhDafIxs >> >> Everybody is of course totally free to do whatever they want, but really, >> why the hell would you want to do that ? >> >> You lose so much by doing that, I do not even know where to start. >> >> A big part of what makes Pharo (or any Smalltalk) special is the IDE >> written in itself. >> >> Editing a .st file has always been possible, it is masochism. >> >> There is for example https://github.com/dmatveev/shampoo-emacs which >> already makes a bit more sense (but even then). >> >> Really, why do you think all these big IDE environments exist in the >> first place ? >> >> Sven >> >> -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Jan. 25, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code editors to code in Pharo

by eftomi

Well, who am I to judge, but developers nowadays use tools which engage "muscle memory" to jump from one functionality of the editor to the other and developer brains are used to work on the problem at hand. All this to the extent that the mouse cannot be grasped with muscle memory alone and then the brain is interrupted. Roughly speaking. I have a very practical question - is it possible to open Calypso, browse for a package that I forgot the name but will recall it when I see it, choose one of its classes, jump to its class methods, and start to edit one of them - all with the keyboard, without the mouse? I searched for all possible keystrokes but didn't find all the necessary keys to do all that. I believe going into a more attractive direction for today's developers would not need too many resources, only a well thought set of shortcut commands and a couple of tiny details would do. If time permits me to contribute on that, I will. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Jan. 25, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code editors to code in Pharo

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Well written, well said, Torsten, exactly my point. > On 25 Jan 2019, at 20:52, Torsten Bergmann <astares(a)gmx.de> wrote: > > Hi, > > Maybe Pharo's switch to Tonel remind people now on Java or C# class files and thats why they ask for the "traditional editing". > But remember that Kent Beck once said: "I mean, source code in files; how quaint, how seventies!". Tonel is a readable storage format, > you could have the source code even in a database (with an ENVY and STORE like approach) > > And ouch .... that video really hurts and I think it will be more disturbing than helpful especially to many newbees > now trying to use their favourite text editor for Pharo coding instead of really learning about a very flexible IDE and workflow with > browsing, interactively inspecting and refactorings. > > Abusing an external text editor is a slap in the face of anyone building good tooling support into Smalltalk over many years. > I know Dimitris tried to help people (as often) - but I guess this video really gives a false impression and guides people the wrong way. > > Sorry - but I'm reminded on pictures like this: > > https://i1.wp.com/ecbiz168.inmotionhosting.com/~perfor21/performancemanagem… > > Dont get me wrong: VisualStudio/VisualStudio Code, Eclipse, IntelliJ and others are nice, I use them too for other languages or tasks. Nicely done - but still > too static. Often I wished only half of the money invested into such IDE's could have been spend on better Smalltalk tooling. > > Remember: once VisualAge for Java got a price as the first usuable Java IDE (when people used Notepad to write *.java files) - but underneath it was > fully coded in Smalltalk and the Java debugger was the Smalltalk debugger running the java subset of bytecodes. At that time VisualAge for Smalltalk > was the base for the full VisualAge series (VisualAge for Java, Visual Age for C++ and others). > > But Smalltalk at that time unfortunately was expensive, licensing a problem and big vendors had to prove one can do deliver similar things with Java too - leading > to Eclipse and others. But the best part on Eclipse was not Java - it was the pluggability concept. The extension point mechanisms of the platform provide > a clear separation leading to a nice ecosystem of available plugins - but still it is hard to write and debug a custom extension. > > A Smalltalk environment is still more dynamic, more lively where you can browse, inspect and adjust nearly anything. And yes - you can even shoot yourself in the foot. > And yes we know Pharo does not provide fancy widgets yet or latest text editing features - but this is a tribute to community resources. > > From my experience: if one free's his mind and gives up traditional programming habits learned in mainstream languages he will enjoy the Pharo journey > much more. > > Bye > T. > >

Jan. 25, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code editors to code in Pharo

by Torsten Bergmann

Hi, Maybe Pharo's switch to Tonel remind people now on Java or C# class files and thats whyÂ they ask for the "traditional editing". But remember that Kent Beck once said: "I mean, source code in files; how quaint, how seventies!". Tonel is a readable storage format, you could have the source code even in a database (with an ENVY and STORE like approach)Â And ouch .... that video really hurts and I think it will be more disturbing than helpful especially to many newbees now trying to use their favourite text editor for Pharo coding instead of really learning about a very flexible IDE and workflow with browsing, interactively inspectingÂ and refactorings. Abusing an external text editor is a slap in the face of anyone building good tooling support into Smalltalk over many years.Â I knowÂ DimitrisÂ tried to help people (as often) - but I guess this video really gives a false impression and guides people the wrong way. Â Sorry - but I'm reminded on pictures like this: Â Â https://i1.wp.com/ecbiz168.inmotionhosting.com/~perfor21/performancemanagem… Dont get me wrong: VisualStudio/VisualStudio Code, Eclipse, IntelliJ and others are nice, I use them too for other languages or tasks. Nicely done - but still too static. Often I wished only half of the money invested into such IDE's could have been spend on better Smalltalk tooling. Â Remember: once VisualAge for Java got a price as the first usuable Java IDE (when people used Notepad to write *.java files) - but underneath it was fully coded in Smalltalk and theÂ Java debugger was the Smalltalk debugger running the java subset of bytecodes. At that time VisualAge for Smalltalk was the base for the full VisualAge series (VisualAge for Java, Visual Age for C++ and others). But Smalltalk at that time unfortunately was expensive, licensing a problem and big vendorsÂ had to prove one can do deliver similar things with Java too - leading to Eclipse and others. But the best part on EclipseÂ was not Java - it was the pluggability concept. The extension point mechanisms of the platform provide a clear separation leading to a nice ecosystem of available plugins - but still it is hard to write and debug a custom extension.Â A Smalltalk environment is still more dynamic, more lively where you can browse, inspect and adjust nearly anything. And yes - you can even shoot yourself in the foot. And yes we know Pharo does not provide fancy widgets yet or latest text editing features - but this is a tribute to community resources. >From my experience: if one free's his mind and gives up traditional programming habits learned in mainstream languages he will enjoy the Pharo journey much more. Bye T. Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â

Jan. 25, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Corrupted fonts in P7 after loading Glamorous Toolkit

by serge.stinckwich＠gmail.com

I have recently also some font problems on my new macbook pro with Pharo 6.1. When I load Roassal and try to run one example, my image crash (with errors related to Cairo). This does not happen with Pharo 7.0 Dunno if this related to my new macbook, Pharo 6.1 VM or my update to last version of Mojave ... Sent from my iPhone > On 25 Jan 2019, at 16:55, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > > Hi - I just noticed that when I loaded the Glamorous toolkit and was playing around, when I went to look in the Pharo menus they are all corrupted (the odd character is some type of glyph). Opening a playground and doing some code completion shows that method names have the same random character glyphed. > > Anyone else seen this? Is is it something about loading GT? > > This is on OSX > > Tim

Jan. 25, 2019

unsub

by bruno barske

Jan. 25, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code editors to code in Pharo

by Denis Kudriashov

Hi. Now settings browser includes all Commander based shortcuts which is all calypso and Iceberg shortcuts in current image. In addition there is a special spotter menu in Calypso to find any available command (not only shortcut based). Ð¿Ñ, 25 ÑÐ½Ð². 2019 Ð³., 15:45 Tim Mackinnon tim(a)testit.works: > > > On 25 Jan 2019, at 13:36, Esteban Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I think this feature is so convenient that it should not only be > visible, but have a menu item of its own. > > > It did originally have a menu entry - however when PRâd I agreed with > Denis to take it out as it kind of cluttered the context menu. > > The old Nautilus had a keystrokes menu that listed them all for you - but > I think we have lost that in Calypso? There are some that appear in the > settings, but Iâm not sure its all of them. > > Tim >

Jan. 25, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Corrupted fonts in P7 after loading Glamorous Toolkit

by Hilaire

I did got this effect with GToolkit. I am not sure it is related to GToolkit as I installed immediately this package, though. Hilaire Le 25/01/2019 Ã 16:55, Tim Mackinnon a Ã©critÂ : > Hi - I just noticed that when I loaded the Glamorous toolkit and was playing around, when I went to look in the Pharo menus they are all corrupted (the odd character is some type of glyph). Opening a playground and doing some code completion shows that method names have the same random character glyphed. > > Anyone else seen this? Is is it something about loading GT? > > This is on OSX > > Tim -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

Jan. 25, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Corrupted fonts in P7 after loading Glamorous Toolkit

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Hi Tim, I also reported back an earlier problem (title 'Pharo 7 RC - Changing to larger font breaks scrolling in code browsers'). I also saw some weirdness with fonts (I made them bigger). There is indeed some way to reset things, but I can't remember it myself. Sven > On 25 Jan 2019, at 17:01, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > > Actually - I just remembered that I saved my image right after loading GT (and before playing with it) and so quitting without saving shows that it started out fine. So following some of the examples seems to have corrupted something? (In retrospect I should have saved with a new name - so Iâll have to see if I can repro it if its not something already known). But I recall some discussion around Freetype fonts or something - so wondering if anyone has any thoughts, otherwise Iâll log a bug. > > Tim > >> On 25 Jan 2019, at 15:58, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: >> >> It looks like this: >> >> <PastedGraphic-2.png> >> >> And this: >> >> <PastedGraphic-1.png> >> >> >> <PastedGraphic-3.png> >> >>> On 25 Jan 2019, at 15:55, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: >>> >>> Hi - I just noticed that when I loaded the Glamorous toolkit and was playing around, when I went to look in the Pharo menus they are all corrupted (the odd character is some type of glyph). Opening a playground and doing some code completion shows that method names have the same random character glyphed. >>> >>> Anyone else seen this? Is is it something about loading GT? >>> >>> This is on OSX >>> >>> Tim >> >

Jan. 25, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Corrupted fonts in P7 after loading Glamorous Toolkit

by Sean P. DeNigris

Tim Mackinnon wrote > But I recall some discussion around Freetype fonts or something That was my thought as well. Maybe try reloading Freetype fonts (IIRC you can uncheck and recheck in settings) ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Jan. 25, 2019