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Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] [OT] (slightly) What makes other dialects "enjoyable" for you? (WAS: difference between double dispatch...)

by phil＠highoctane.be

I second that. A locked up Pharo IDE is infuriating. A dead/broken keyboard is proof of this. I have been using Jetbrains IDEA for a while now and love the embedded terminal, the Ctrl-Tab for tools and Ctrl-f12 for jumping to a method + the shift shift global search (kind of spotter) that matches on like WCH which could find WebComponentHandler for example. And refactorings that cover a ton of situations neatly. Cool feature is also restart of a test when in the middle of debugging. Phil On Thu, Apr 11, 2019, 15:33 jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de <jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> wrote: > +1 on the long term support and stability topic. > > ... and if I remember correctly, either Stephane or Marcus once talked > about plans for some kind of LTS version at ESUG two or three years ago...? > > > Am 11.04.19 um 15:29 schrieb Mariano Martinez Peck: > > Hi Esteban, > > We talk this privately a couple of weeks ago, but I thought it was worth > writing again here. As for other IDE's being enjoyable, I can only talk > about VASmalltalk. If there is ONE thing I enjoy from it, is the stability. > May be ugly, may be too-windows, may be full of menus you don't understand > what they do, but it's really rock solid. > Pharo has been doing a LOT of progress on so many areas and its expected > to decrease a bit on stability. Unless you are Oracle and can hire 100 > engineers. > So, my small recommendation to you back then was to make at least ONE > release (called LTS or whatever) were you just focus on stability and bugs. > No new features. No new framework. Just stability. Make it rock solid. Then > after that release, you can keep moving forward, but that would give > companies and really really stable Pharo to rely on. > > Best, > > -- > Mariano Martinez Peck > Email: marianopeck(a)gmail.com > Twitter: @MartinezPeck > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariano-mart%C3%ADnez-peck/ > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de <jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de> > Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de > D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com > Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 > > > >

April 11, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] [OT] (slightly) What makes other dialects "enjoyable" for you? (WAS: difference between double dispatch...)

by Norbert Hartl

> Am 11.04.2019 um 15:29 schrieb Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com>: > > Hi Esteban, > > We talk this privately a couple of weeks ago, but I thought it was worth writing again here. As for other IDE's being enjoyable, I can only talk about VASmalltalk. If there is ONE thing I enjoy from it, is the stability. May be ugly, may be too-windows, may be full of menus you don't understand what they do, but it's really rock solid. > Pharo has been doing a LOT of progress on so many areas and its expected to decrease a bit on stability. Unless you are Oracle and can hire 100 engineers. > So, my small recommendation to you back then was to make at least ONE release (called LTS or whatever) were you just focus on stability and bugs. No new features. No new framework. Just stability. Make it rock solid. Then after that release, you can keep moving forward, but that would give companies and really really stable Pharo to rely on. > For the provision of an LTS version we need more engineers. If there are enough companies that need a rock solid stable version then the consortium will have enough money to hire engineers for that. I would put a virtual machine that we can control much higher on the list of things we should have. Norbert > Best, > > -- > Mariano Martinez Peck > Email: marianopeck(a)gmail.com > Twitter: @MartinezPeck > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariano-mart%C3%ADnez-peck/

April 11, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] [OT] (slightly) What makes other dialects "enjoyable" for you? (WAS: difference between double dispatch...)

by jtuchel＠objektfabrik.de

+1 on the long term support and stability topic. ... and if I remember correctly, either Stephane or Marcus once talked about plans for some kind of LTS version at ESUG two or three years ago...? Am 11.04.19 um 15:29 schrieb Mariano Martinez Peck: > Hi Esteban, > > We talk this privately a couple of weeks ago, but I thought it was > worth writing again here. As for other IDE's being enjoyable, I can > only talk about VASmalltalk. If there is ONE thing I enjoy from it, is > the stability. May be ugly, may be too-windows, may be full of menus > you don't understand what they do, but it's really rock solid. > Pharo has been doing a LOT of progress on so many areas and its > expected to decrease a bit on stability. Unless you are Oracle and can > hire 100 engineers. > So, my small recommendation to you back then was to make at least ONE > release (called LTS or whatever) were you just focus on stability and > bugs. No new features. No new framework. Just stability. Make it rock > solid. Then after that release, you can keep moving forward, but that > would give companies and really really stable Pharo to rely on. > > Best, > -- > Mariano Martinez Peck > Email: marianopeck(a)gmail.com <mailto:marianopeck@gmail.com> > Twitter: @MartinezPeck > LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariano-mart%C3%ADnez-peck/ -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

April 11, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] [OT] (slightly) What makes other dialects "enjoyable" for you? (WAS: difference between double dispatch...)

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Hi Esteban, We talk this privately a couple of weeks ago, but I thought it was worth writing again here. As for other IDE's being enjoyable, I can only talk about VASmalltalk. If there is ONE thing I enjoy from it, is the stability. May be ugly, may be too-windows, may be full of menus you don't understand what they do, but it's really rock solid. Pharo has been doing a LOT of progress on so many areas and its expected to decrease a bit on stability. Unless you are Oracle and can hire 100 engineers. So, my small recommendation to you back then was to make at least ONE release (called LTS or whatever) were you just focus on stability and bugs. No new features. No new framework. Just stability. Make it rock solid. Then after that release, you can keep moving forward, but that would give companies and really really stable Pharo to rely on. Best, -- Mariano Martinez Peck Email: marianopeck(a)gmail.com Twitter: @MartinezPeck LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariano-mart%C3%ADnez-peck/

April 11, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Richard Kenneth Eng is NOT Mr. Smalltalk

by Tim Mackinnon

Thanks guys - I think some useful clarifications came out of this - and I hope it doesnât dent anyoneâs enthusiasm to spreading the good word about all useful technology and approaches. > On 11 Apr 2019, at 08:28, Michael Zeder <post(a)michael-j-zeder.de> wrote: > > > >> How about we just move on? > > Thanks. I have responded in private to persons who asked for it, to not further flood the list. > > To close this thread, I feel it may be necessary to say something conciliatory: So, apology to Richard for being rude and loud. I was pushing for reactions, and since you sought the lime light yourself, I was particularly harsh. > > >> ... everyone focuses on the merits of their respective languages/approaches - IÂ´m more interested seeing energy invested in the next cool things in all languages. IÂ´m also keen for us also finishing off the bits we still in progress. And I hope we can constructively share ideas ... > > Fully agreed. I stand by my points, public appearance of a community is a concern. A seclusive "obscure" small niche language which makes a "silly" picture in web searches and bashes and lashes out on big languages (for good/bad reasons) is not appealing and does not market itself well. > (Since a criticized again, apology again for the tone) >

April 11, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Richard Kenneth Eng is NOT Mr. Smalltalk

by Michael Zeder

> How about we just move on? Thanks. I have responded in private to persons who asked for it, to not further flood the list. To close this thread, I feel it may be necessary to say something conciliatory: So, apology to Richard for being rude and loud. I was pushing for reactions, and since you sought the lime light yourself, I was particularly harsh. > ... everyone focuses on the merits of their respective > languages/approaches - Iâm more interested seeing energy invested > in the next cool things in all languages. Iâm also keen for us also > finishing off the bits we still in progress. And I hope we can > constructively share ideas ... Fully agreed. I stand by my points, public appearance of a community is a concern. A seclusive "obscure" small niche language which makes a "silly" picture in web searches and bashes and lashes out on big languages (for good/bad reasons) is not appealing and does not market itself well. (Since a criticized again, apology again for the tone)

April 11, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Richard Kenneth Eng is NOT Mr. Smalltalk

by john pfersich

+1 /*âââââââââââââââââ-*/ Sent from my iPhone https://boincstats.com/signature/-1/user/51616339056/sig.png See https://objectnets.net and https://objectnets.org > On Apr 10, 2019, at 12:38, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > > How about we just move on? I donât see much usefulness in arguing over older stuff - Iâm sure you/we/them will have different opinions on levels of incorrectness - honestly itâs not worth it. > > I think youâve defended your corner fine , but I would much prefer that everyone focuses on the merits of their respective languages/approaches - Iâm more interested seeing energy invested in the next cool things in all languages. Iâm also keen for us also finishing off the bits we still in progress. And I hope we can constructively share ideas ... > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On 10 Apr 2019, at 19:25, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Just to prove that I'm a very reasonable person, I make this unconditional >> offer... >> >> If Michael can identify which of my JavaScript and Python articles are in >> error and point out the specific falsehoods, I will correct them. I presume >> that not ALL of my criticisms are unjustified. >> >> This should assuage any concerns that JavaScript and Python developers who >> read my articles are mislead and think I don't know what I'm talking about. >> I trust this will prevent Smalltalk (and Pharo) from being placed in a bad >> light. >> >> See? I can be very accommodating. I look forward to the suggested >> amendments. >> >> >> >> horrido wrote >>> BTW, I've also said many unkind things about Python. And C++. And Scala >>> and >>> Swift. But I'm being criticized for what I've said about JavaScript? >>> Really??? >>> >>> There is certainly no hint of bias here. >>> >>> >>> >>> Michael J. Zeder wrote >>>> Hey Ben, >>>> >>>> I leave it with this answer, as you suggested, thank you for picking up >>>> the ball! >>>> First, I admit again, I have thought about it one whole day, if and how >>>> I should do this "intervention", which is absolutly not my usual style, >>>> but I decided for myself, to be intentionally blunt, provocative, and >>>> parade his virtual presence around here in front of all Pharo users... >>>> In the hope that this kicks off something and, of course, that it will >>>> not be the final word. >>>> >>>> I tried to avoid being seen as the hurt one (seems, that I did not >>>> quite succeed with this). Javascript is most popular, so R.K. Eng >>>> cannot damage this platform with his â let's say... â "opinions", >>>> but he can damage Smalltalk and its small community. So I started with >>>> making noise, not with the story from my client's managers, who >>>> dismissed Pharo, because of his highly ranked Google search results â >>>> last year (But in fact, I was annoyed two days ago, I was googling >>>> actually a very specific topic about compiler optimization in >>>> prototype-based OO, and R.K. Engs ill-informed superficial "lecturing" >>>> rants showed up again at third or fourth place, I think, sigh). >>>> >>>> Short answers to your questions: >>>> >>>> * Yep, one main concern is his connection between Smalltalk advocacy >>>> and discrediting other languages â or making dogmatic, condescending >>>> and un-empirical statements of strong typing over weak typing, or >>>> class-based over prototype-based OO etc. Just separate that clearly. JS >>>> has huge momentum (IMHO absolutly justified), and it would be advisable >>>> to say something like "Hey, you like JS? Then look at ST, it is similar >>>> but the 'original thing', more pure, and takes the basic concepts even >>>> further". >>>> >>>> * I have to correct myself concerning "wrong statements about ST": it >>>> is not so much, that he writes "wrong" things about Pharo, but it is >>>> more that R.K.Eng often uses old 1980ies marketing language (like "It >>>> is just objects all the way down!"). That was nice back then, a >>>> completely new way of thinking, but today, a whole bunch of languages >>>> has sprung up from this legacy (dynamic, OO, introspection etc.), among >>>> them JS, and have taken the concepts to new forms. His superficial >>>> knowledge combined with the over-confident and condescending attitude >>>> scares away interested people. The quote I mentioned ("just object all >>>> the way down") was one of the blog topics the managers, to whom I tried >>>> to advertise Pharo, found ridiculous and laughed at it ("does it work >>>> by magic then? What are the primitives and basic value types then?" >>>> etc). >>>> >>>> * Pushing ones own projects is fine, again. But all his publicity >>>> effort have a strong taste (maybe it is cultural), that he wants >>>> control public perception of the community (and thus steering it). >>>> Being "Mr. Smalltalk" is extremly presumptive, in German it would >>>> usually refer to an official spokesperson (I think actually, for native >>>> English speakers, too...). And if I remember correctly, he did not get >>>> a warm welcome, true, but before that, he showed up without any >>>> Smalltalk background and just proclaimed himself the new >>>> project/marketing manager, without ever asking, what the community >>>> actually needs and what the current state is. >>>> >>>> * The top search results in Google are a major concern for every FOSS >>>> project... >>>> >>>> * If a person constantly and loudly points out that he is "altruistic", >>>> and that his self-initiated work (unasked, and reasonably rejected in >>>> part) would be worth a lot of money, than this is the opposite of >>>> altruistic... Again, maybe a cultural thing. >>>> >>>> But yes, I like to see becoming this a success story. >>>> Thank you! M >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Am Fr, 1. MÃ¤r, 2019 um 6:15 NACHMITTAGS schrieb Ben Coman >>>> < >>> >>>> btc@ >>> >>>> >: >>>>> Hi Michael, >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for your thoughtful followup. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 at 19:59, Michael Zeder < >>> >>>> post@ >>> >>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I have carefully thought about, if I should really go publicly >>>>>> against one person within the community, and to start this "tirade", >>>>>> including the possibility that this causes an escalation, of course >>>>>> you cannot/must not silence a person ("Streisand" effect, did not >>>>>> know the term, but very fitting). But I decided that this kind of >>>>>> public conflicts is what is needed (and will make the community look >>>>>> better, not worse), _if_ a certain point is reached. >>>>> >>>>> I certainly subscribe to the tenet "Community standards do not >>>>> maintain themselves: They're maintained by people actively applying >>>>> them, visibly, in public." [1] >>>>> And I understand the tension in deciding to do so, with the >>>>> accompanying risk of making things worse (been there myself) >>>>> For me what weakened your first post was the name calling and sense >>>>> you were coming from a position of hurt with a story you needed to >>>>> justify by "making him wrong". :) >>>>> Much better second time round. >>>>> >>>>> [1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#not_losing >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I stand by it, but have reconsidered some points: >>>>>> * I do (did) not call for _immediate_ exclusion, but an >>>>>> "admonishment" that if certain behaviour is not about to change >>>>>> fundamentally, the community will have to act (by publicly >>>>>> separating this individual out). >>>>>> * Take older articles down, which start flamewars against other >>>>>> languages, or more precise: separate them from Smalltalk advocacy! >>>>>> If he wants to flame JS (for its various birth defects), fine, but >>>>>> don't connect that with pro-Smalltalk articles, for example. >>>>> >>>>> That seems a reasonable position and a good way to frame it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> * Community efforts shall follow follow some community consensus. >>>>>> Core developers are no dictators, of course, but they are the ones >>>>>> knowing, what the state of the project is, and where _their_ work >>>>>> will lead to. Constantly ignoring this common guidance is >>>>>> detrimental to the community. So either, learn Smalltalk core coding >>>>>> and challenge the leadership, or do accept that there is some common >>>>>> agenda (and there are lots of open tasks: writing tutorials, >>>>>> documentation, make old scientific research available, linking and >>>>>> connecting showcases). >>>>> >>>>> His earlier articles got hammered and its natural that created a >>>>> defensive position for him to disconnect from the community >>>>> leadership. >>>>> The trick as for everyone is to not carry those forever and try >>>>> starting anew. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> * Public opinion does matter. The fact I mentioned Google SEO was >>>>>> indeed the starting point for me, to get into or start this flame >>>>>> war. Here is my story: >>>>>> Two of my clients (medium-sized enterprises) are classical C++/C# >>>>>> Windows development companies. I advertised Pharo to them for an >>>>>> _internal_ tool (their commerical products won't change to Smalltalk >>>>>> of course, but for their own internal dev tasks, Pharo whould have >>>>>> been a nice fit). When the managers got back to me, they had googled >>>>>> it, and told me, this thing sounds very dubious ("unseriÃ¶s"). I >>>>>> enquired, what they had read, and they told me, this "spokesperson" >>>>>> (sic!!!) sounds like a trolling script kid, and they can't employ >>>>>> something which is developed (sic!!!) by such people. After some >>>>>> explanation, I managed to convince them, that this person is just a >>>>>> lonely person, who showed up out of nowhere, is not involved in the >>>>>> actual work, and just produces himself on the internet. But too >>>>>> late, their impression on Smalltalk was already formed by R.K.Engs >>>>>> "blogs" (in the meantime, they rank on top in Google search result). >>>>> >>>>> You should have led with that !!!! An experience has a lot more >>>>> power than an opinion. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> When I did some research of my own yesterday, and saw again, that >>>>>> R.K. Engs dubious blog entries were listed on top, I decided to take >>>>>> action. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I like to answer to your balanced and thoughtful responses: >>>>>> >>>>>>> You may disagree about *how* he does such work, the actual content, >>>>>>> for sure, but that's a feedback better directed to mr. Eng himself. >>>>>> >>>>>> R.K. Eng has made it clear in the past many many times in uncertain >>>>>> wording, that he is not willing to follow community advice in these >>>>>> matters, if his gut is telling him something different... >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Some of that community advice has been delivered fairly >>>>> confrontation-ally and not really conducive to having someone listen. >>>>> >>>>>>> Hopefully I've expressed a balanced enough position that this >>>>>>> doesn't draw too many responses. >>>>>>> >>>>>> yes, you did. thank you. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> I agree "Mr Smalltalk" is quite a presumptive title, but really >>>>>>>> anyone following the mail lists soon gets an idea of who are the >>>>>>>> community merit leaders. >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, I disagree, based on the experience, I have written down >>>>>> above. The internet is very much about who is in the center of the >>>>>> focus (SEO/social media). Anybody new to Smalltalk will at first >>>>>> glance identify our community with this "spokesperson" (as I have >>>>>> experienced with two people, last year already btw) >>>>> >>>>> Point taken. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Maybe it is a language thing, but "Mr. Smalltalk" is _extremely_ >>>>>> presumptive (in German, it means the embodiment of the denoted >>>>>> thing). If a person is not doing very very thorough reading of ages >>>>>> old mail list discussions or is researching, that this person in >>>>>> fact never committed any code to the repos, then any newcomer will >>>>>> think, this "Mr. Smalltalk" is at least a versed and informed >>>>>> Smalltalk developer (which, given his newbie questions he is >>>>>> absolutely not). >>>>> >>>>> Got it. So apart from fighting directly against his presumption to >>>>> the title (which seems difficult) >>>>> would cleaning some other-language-denigration from old articles go >>>>> some way towards mitigating your concern? >>>>> >>>>>>>> You are right he hasn't committed any code, but I've not actually >>>>>>>> seen him claim credit for any code in Pharo, so this point seems >>>>>>>> off. >>>>>> true. but as I just wrote, that is what people presume, given his >>>>>> way and manner of producing himself. If he wrote honestly wrote "I >>>>>> am a fanboy, supporter and advocate of Smalltalk...", great! But he >>>>>> claims he worked many many hours without a dime, but worth many >>>>>> dollars, and had "tremendous success" in creating a new Smalltalk >>>>>> wave. >>>>> >>>>> I'm pretty by many-hours-without-a dime he meant his evangelism. >>>>> If it didn't come across like that, that is probably specific >>>>> copy-edit feedback that would be useful to him. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> * ...is doing SEO to make Google show his own results before FOSS >>>>>>>>> community or sciences pages. >>>>>>>> I think its equally likely that most in our community are too busy >>>>>>>> coding to try getting articles ranked, >>>>>>>> so its more lack of effort by most of us. Most of his articles >>>>>>>> mention Pharo so people end up finding us anyway. >>>>>> might be true (some criticism to the community agenda..? different >>>>>> topic) >>>>>> The thing is, the wrong information are getting more and more in the >>>>>> focus of the internet, pushing aside the community-driven Pharo >>>>>> sites (or real scientific papers or well-done tutorials). >>>>> >>>>> I've read most of his articles. I don't think he gets much factually >>>>> wrong about Pharo (and has corrected those when pointed out). >>>>> It seems your main concern about wrong information is attacks on >>>>> other languages, which is fair. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>> Any money he gets for his writing is not anything that concerns me >>>>>>>> personally. Those articles are his own effort. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, misunderstanding! Of course, he may earn with his writing, >>>>>> whatever he gets for it. >>>>>> I was referring to the "up-coming" Smalltalk Coding Competition. >>>>> >>>>> btw, a few weeks ago when Richard asked for help to program the >>>>> competition, I volunteered. >>>>> I've criticized some of his articles, and maybe there are other >>>>> "better" the money could be spent, >>>>> but I admire he has stuck to his vision and think its a big thing he >>>>> has taken on. >>>>> If its going to happen anyway, for me its better to help make it a >>>>> success than a flop. >>>>> [Sidebar: I haven't managed to do much on it yet since I'm run ragged >>>>> on a personal development course until mid-April >>>>> that includes running a community project of my own... >>>>> https://www.nanpopcode.fun/] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Now, yes, that money doesn't go into his own pockets (would be >>>>>> criminal fraud), but the thing is, he controls this money. >>>>>> Who will be the judges? Who will set parameters for the competition? >>>>>> Transparency? >>>>>> What is the benefit that goes back into the community? Now, it is >>>>>> fine, that he is pushing for things like that, but again, he is >>>>>> doing it without synchronising this effort with what is needed by >>>>>> the community. >>>>> >>>>> He got a reasonable number of supporters on GoFundMe (I wasn't one at >>>>> the time), >>>>> and I believe the majority of the money comes from a few companies >>>>> so I expect its really their opinion that counts about how their >>>>> money is spent. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>> * ...denies community leadership by merit (Pharo core developers >>>>>>>>> do know, what they have created and where they want to go in the >>>>>>>>> future, >>>>>>>> I don't see him claiming leadership of our community or trying to >>>>>>>> set our agenda. >>>>>>>> He just didn't let community criticism of his writing slow him >>>>>>>> down. >>>>>>>> All I observed is that several people bit him and he bit back - >>>>>>>> fairly usual sort of poor communication on both sides (including >>>>>>>> me). >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, as written above, the manner of his web appearance is >>>>>> implicitly a claim of community leadership. Not an exclusive one of >>>>>> course, but he wants to be perceived of one of the most important >>>>>> persons in the community (he told so many times, explicitly). And >>>>>> given my experience, read above, this had already a (negative) >>>>>> success with it. >>>>>> And I think he is setting agenda: "Make Smalltalk great/mainstream >>>>>> again" is the baseline, and that is something, only the core dev >>>>>> team and the community as a whole can decide/make happen (I love >>>>>> Smalltalk, but he promises wrong things, so if, just for example, >>>>>> C++/Qt devs or _modern_ JS devs have a first look at Smalltalk with >>>>>> the expectation they could already do the same thing as in their >>>>>> usual platforms, they will be disappointed --> synchronize a >>>>>> marketing agenda with what this great project currently is about, >>>>>> but he is not willing to cooperate with the core dev team) >>>>> >>>>> Fair enough. Since in a couple of months I'll be helping him out, >>>>> I'll have an opportunity to raise these concerns with him. >>>>> >>>>>>>> Him swearing about a group of Pharo people is good ammunition to >>>>>>>> bring to the mail list to support your point, >>>>>>>> but I also see he was rather provoked. Overall I feel this >>>>>>>> extract was better left in that small corner of the internet >>>>>>>> rather than fan flames here. >>>>>> >>>>>> :) Yeah... no! I think this is really a central point (so I put him >>>>>> in the pillory here with intent). There is something called >>>>>> community/FOSS ethics and structures. >>>>>> He does not show _respect_ towards those people, who did the work, >>>>>> but produces himself, and pushes for things, which the people who >>>>>> devoted their work to this project, told him that it is >>>>>> counter-productive. That is, in the long-run, a very dangerous >>>>>> situation. >>>>> >>>>> I agree, its not great. But he didn't get a warm welcome and some of >>>>> his early interactions were abrasive. >>>>> Considering two extremes, you can either be inclusive and hopefully >>>>> nurture/mold, or exclude and lose any chance at that. >>>>> Like a lot of things, the path is somewhere in the middle and needs a >>>>> bit of give and take on both sides. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> PS: a side note on Javascript (with lower S). wether you love or >>>>>>>>> hate this quirky lovechild of Lisp and Self/Smalltalk, telling JS >>>>>>>>> developers they are stupid and that they should abandon powerful >>>>>>>>> Vue.js, for example, in favor of Amber Smalltalk [cudos to Amber >>>>>>>>> devs! great thing!]) is utterly stupid! >>>>>>>> Agree. But banning everyone in the world for similar stupidity >>>>>>>> would leave the internet awfully quiet. >>>>>> Sure! Again: I am against silencing or banning anybody (and how >>>>>> could you). But if this becomes unbearable, there needs to be a >>>>>> public separation, so he does not drag the project down. People need >>>>>> to speak up against such usurpation. >>>>> >>>>> I appreciate the stand your are taking for the community. >>>>> I've gained from your share of your workplace experience. >>>>> >>>>>>>>> (which in the end are only a self-serving, ego-centric, >>>>>>>>> attention-greedy campaign to promote "Mr. Smalltalk" himself, a >>>>>>>>> total newbie, who claims credit for the work of others). >>>>>>>> Your repeated "claims credit for the work of others" is quite >>>>>>>> provocative and I haven't noticed this in his writings. Could you >>>>>>>> provide a link? >>>>>> >>>>>> See above, maybe it is a cultural thing, but as I told in my >>>>>> experience, all of his appearance screams for being recognized as >>>>>> one of the most important persons in the community (he is >>>>>> condescendingly mocking marketing efforts of the last 40 years, >>>>>> claims that he is the one who will "make smalltalk great again"...) >>>>>> >>>>>> Yes I am provocative this time, not my normal style (and I admit, I >>>>>> was tripped-out by his provocative blog title "Even people who >>>>>> understand prototypal programming do not like it â an inconvienent >>>>>> truth"; that is dripping off arrogance and ignorance... And sheds a >>>>>> bad light on Smalltalk, with which he wants to be identified in the >>>>>> web) >>>>> >>>>> Got it. >>>>> Let me ask to park this thread for the moment, because it can be >>>>> quite distracting if everyone chips in an opinion. >>>>> I think you've made some fair points and I'll put myself on the line >>>>> to discuss them with Richard when I start helping him with his >>>>> competition project. >>>>> >>>>> cheers -ben >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > >

April 10, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Richard Kenneth Eng is NOT Mr. Smalltalk

by Tim Mackinnon

How about we just move on? I donât see much usefulness in arguing over older stuff - Iâm sure you/we/them will have different opinions on levels of incorrectness - honestly itâs not worth it. I think youâve defended your corner fine , but I would much prefer that everyone focuses on the merits of their respective languages/approaches - Iâm more interested seeing energy invested in the next cool things in all languages. Iâm also keen for us also finishing off the bits we still in progress. And I hope we can constructively share ideas ... Sent from my iPhone > On 10 Apr 2019, at 19:25, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Just to prove that I'm a very reasonable person, I make this unconditional > offer... > > If Michael can identify which of my JavaScript and Python articles are in > error and point out the specific falsehoods, I will correct them. I presume > that not ALL of my criticisms are unjustified. > > This should assuage any concerns that JavaScript and Python developers who > read my articles are mislead and think I don't know what I'm talking about. > I trust this will prevent Smalltalk (and Pharo) from being placed in a bad > light. > > See? I can be very accommodating. I look forward to the suggested > amendments. > > > > horrido wrote >> BTW, I've also said many unkind things about Python. And C++. And Scala >> and >> Swift. But I'm being criticized for what I've said about JavaScript? >> Really??? >> >> There is certainly no hint of bias here. >> >> >> >> Michael J. Zeder wrote >>> Hey Ben, >>> >>> I leave it with this answer, as you suggested, thank you for picking up >>> the ball! >>> First, I admit again, I have thought about it one whole day, if and how >>> I should do this "intervention", which is absolutly not my usual style, >>> but I decided for myself, to be intentionally blunt, provocative, and >>> parade his virtual presence around here in front of all Pharo users... >>> In the hope that this kicks off something and, of course, that it will >>> not be the final word. >>> >>> I tried to avoid being seen as the hurt one (seems, that I did not >>> quite succeed with this). Javascript is most popular, so R.K. Eng >>> cannot damage this platform with his â let's say... â "opinions", >>> but he can damage Smalltalk and its small community. So I started with >>> making noise, not with the story from my client's managers, who >>> dismissed Pharo, because of his highly ranked Google search results â >>> last year (But in fact, I was annoyed two days ago, I was googling >>> actually a very specific topic about compiler optimization in >>> prototype-based OO, and R.K. Engs ill-informed superficial "lecturing" >>> rants showed up again at third or fourth place, I think, sigh). >>> >>> Short answers to your questions: >>> >>> * Yep, one main concern is his connection between Smalltalk advocacy >>> and discrediting other languages â or making dogmatic, condescending >>> and un-empirical statements of strong typing over weak typing, or >>> class-based over prototype-based OO etc. Just separate that clearly. JS >>> has huge momentum (IMHO absolutly justified), and it would be advisable >>> to say something like "Hey, you like JS? Then look at ST, it is similar >>> but the 'original thing', more pure, and takes the basic concepts even >>> further". >>> >>> * I have to correct myself concerning "wrong statements about ST": it >>> is not so much, that he writes "wrong" things about Pharo, but it is >>> more that R.K.Eng often uses old 1980ies marketing language (like "It >>> is just objects all the way down!"). That was nice back then, a >>> completely new way of thinking, but today, a whole bunch of languages >>> has sprung up from this legacy (dynamic, OO, introspection etc.), among >>> them JS, and have taken the concepts to new forms. His superficial >>> knowledge combined with the over-confident and condescending attitude >>> scares away interested people. The quote I mentioned ("just object all >>> the way down") was one of the blog topics the managers, to whom I tried >>> to advertise Pharo, found ridiculous and laughed at it ("does it work >>> by magic then? What are the primitives and basic value types then?" >>> etc). >>> >>> * Pushing ones own projects is fine, again. But all his publicity >>> effort have a strong taste (maybe it is cultural), that he wants >>> control public perception of the community (and thus steering it). >>> Being "Mr. Smalltalk" is extremly presumptive, in German it would >>> usually refer to an official spokesperson (I think actually, for native >>> English speakers, too...). And if I remember correctly, he did not get >>> a warm welcome, true, but before that, he showed up without any >>> Smalltalk background and just proclaimed himself the new >>> project/marketing manager, without ever asking, what the community >>> actually needs and what the current state is. >>> >>> * The top search results in Google are a major concern for every FOSS >>> project... >>> >>> * If a person constantly and loudly points out that he is "altruistic", >>> and that his self-initiated work (unasked, and reasonably rejected in >>> part) would be worth a lot of money, than this is the opposite of >>> altruistic... Again, maybe a cultural thing. >>> >>> But yes, I like to see becoming this a success story. >>> Thank you! M >>> >>> >>> >>> Am Fr, 1. MÃ¤r, 2019 um 6:15 NACHMITTAGS schrieb Ben Coman >>> < >> >>> btc@ >> >>> >: >>>> Hi Michael, >>>> >>>> Thanks for your thoughtful followup. >>>> >>>> On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 at 19:59, Michael Zeder < >> >>> post@ >> >>> > >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I have carefully thought about, if I should really go publicly >>>>> against one person within the community, and to start this "tirade", >>>>> including the possibility that this causes an escalation, of course >>>>> you cannot/must not silence a person ("Streisand" effect, did not >>>>> know the term, but very fitting). But I decided that this kind of >>>>> public conflicts is what is needed (and will make the community look >>>>> better, not worse), _if_ a certain point is reached. >>>> >>>> I certainly subscribe to the tenet "Community standards do not >>>> maintain themselves: They're maintained by people actively applying >>>> them, visibly, in public." [1] >>>> And I understand the tension in deciding to do so, with the >>>> accompanying risk of making things worse (been there myself) >>>> For me what weakened your first post was the name calling and sense >>>> you were coming from a position of hurt with a story you needed to >>>> justify by "making him wrong". :) >>>> Much better second time round. >>>> >>>> [1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#not_losing >>>> >>>> >>>>> I stand by it, but have reconsidered some points: >>>>> * I do (did) not call for _immediate_ exclusion, but an >>>>> "admonishment" that if certain behaviour is not about to change >>>>> fundamentally, the community will have to act (by publicly >>>>> separating this individual out). >>>>> * Take older articles down, which start flamewars against other >>>>> languages, or more precise: separate them from Smalltalk advocacy! >>>>> If he wants to flame JS (for its various birth defects), fine, but >>>>> don't connect that with pro-Smalltalk articles, for example. >>>> >>>> That seems a reasonable position and a good way to frame it. >>>> >>>> >>>>> * Community efforts shall follow follow some community consensus. >>>>> Core developers are no dictators, of course, but they are the ones >>>>> knowing, what the state of the project is, and where _their_ work >>>>> will lead to. Constantly ignoring this common guidance is >>>>> detrimental to the community. So either, learn Smalltalk core coding >>>>> and challenge the leadership, or do accept that there is some common >>>>> agenda (and there are lots of open tasks: writing tutorials, >>>>> documentation, make old scientific research available, linking and >>>>> connecting showcases). >>>> >>>> His earlier articles got hammered and its natural that created a >>>> defensive position for him to disconnect from the community >>>> leadership. >>>> The trick as for everyone is to not carry those forever and try >>>> starting anew. >>>> >>>> >>>>> * Public opinion does matter. The fact I mentioned Google SEO was >>>>> indeed the starting point for me, to get into or start this flame >>>>> war. Here is my story: >>>>> Two of my clients (medium-sized enterprises) are classical C++/C# >>>>> Windows development companies. I advertised Pharo to them for an >>>>> _internal_ tool (their commerical products won't change to Smalltalk >>>>> of course, but for their own internal dev tasks, Pharo whould have >>>>> been a nice fit). When the managers got back to me, they had googled >>>>> it, and told me, this thing sounds very dubious ("unseriÃ¶s"). I >>>>> enquired, what they had read, and they told me, this "spokesperson" >>>>> (sic!!!) sounds like a trolling script kid, and they can't employ >>>>> something which is developed (sic!!!) by such people. After some >>>>> explanation, I managed to convince them, that this person is just a >>>>> lonely person, who showed up out of nowhere, is not involved in the >>>>> actual work, and just produces himself on the internet. But too >>>>> late, their impression on Smalltalk was already formed by R.K.Engs >>>>> "blogs" (in the meantime, they rank on top in Google search result). >>>> >>>> You should have led with that !!!! An experience has a lot more >>>> power than an opinion. >>>> >>>> >>>>> When I did some research of my own yesterday, and saw again, that >>>>> R.K. Engs dubious blog entries were listed on top, I decided to take >>>>> action. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I like to answer to your balanced and thoughtful responses: >>>>> >>>>>> You may disagree about *how* he does such work, the actual content, >>>>>> for sure, but that's a feedback better directed to mr. Eng himself. >>>>> >>>>> R.K. Eng has made it clear in the past many many times in uncertain >>>>> wording, that he is not willing to follow community advice in these >>>>> matters, if his gut is telling him something different... >>>>> >>>> >>>> Some of that community advice has been delivered fairly >>>> confrontation-ally and not really conducive to having someone listen. >>>> >>>>>> Hopefully I've expressed a balanced enough position that this >>>>>> doesn't draw too many responses. >>>>>> >>>>> yes, you did. thank you. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> I agree "Mr Smalltalk" is quite a presumptive title, but really >>>>>>> anyone following the mail lists soon gets an idea of who are the >>>>>>> community merit leaders. >>>>> >>>>> Well, I disagree, based on the experience, I have written down >>>>> above. The internet is very much about who is in the center of the >>>>> focus (SEO/social media). Anybody new to Smalltalk will at first >>>>> glance identify our community with this "spokesperson" (as I have >>>>> experienced with two people, last year already btw) >>>> >>>> Point taken. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Maybe it is a language thing, but "Mr. Smalltalk" is _extremely_ >>>>> presumptive (in German, it means the embodiment of the denoted >>>>> thing). If a person is not doing very very thorough reading of ages >>>>> old mail list discussions or is researching, that this person in >>>>> fact never committed any code to the repos, then any newcomer will >>>>> think, this "Mr. Smalltalk" is at least a versed and informed >>>>> Smalltalk developer (which, given his newbie questions he is >>>>> absolutely not). >>>> >>>> Got it. So apart from fighting directly against his presumption to >>>> the title (which seems difficult) >>>> would cleaning some other-language-denigration from old articles go >>>> some way towards mitigating your concern? >>>> >>>>>>> You are right he hasn't committed any code, but I've not actually >>>>>>> seen him claim credit for any code in Pharo, so this point seems >>>>>>> off. >>>>> true. but as I just wrote, that is what people presume, given his >>>>> way and manner of producing himself. If he wrote honestly wrote "I >>>>> am a fanboy, supporter and advocate of Smalltalk...", great! But he >>>>> claims he worked many many hours without a dime, but worth many >>>>> dollars, and had "tremendous success" in creating a new Smalltalk >>>>> wave. >>>> >>>> I'm pretty by many-hours-without-a dime he meant his evangelism. >>>> If it didn't come across like that, that is probably specific >>>> copy-edit feedback that would be useful to him. >>>> >>>>>>>> * ...is doing SEO to make Google show his own results before FOSS >>>>>>>> community or sciences pages. >>>>>>> I think its equally likely that most in our community are too busy >>>>>>> coding to try getting articles ranked, >>>>>>> so its more lack of effort by most of us. Most of his articles >>>>>>> mention Pharo so people end up finding us anyway. >>>>> might be true (some criticism to the community agenda..? different >>>>> topic) >>>>> The thing is, the wrong information are getting more and more in the >>>>> focus of the internet, pushing aside the community-driven Pharo >>>>> sites (or real scientific papers or well-done tutorials). >>>> >>>> I've read most of his articles. I don't think he gets much factually >>>> wrong about Pharo (and has corrected those when pointed out). >>>> It seems your main concern about wrong information is attacks on >>>> other languages, which is fair. >>>> >>>> >>>>>>> Any money he gets for his writing is not anything that concerns me >>>>>>> personally. Those articles are his own effort. >>>>> >>>>> Sorry, misunderstanding! Of course, he may earn with his writing, >>>>> whatever he gets for it. >>>>> I was referring to the "up-coming" Smalltalk Coding Competition. >>>> >>>> btw, a few weeks ago when Richard asked for help to program the >>>> competition, I volunteered. >>>> I've criticized some of his articles, and maybe there are other >>>> "better" the money could be spent, >>>> but I admire he has stuck to his vision and think its a big thing he >>>> has taken on. >>>> If its going to happen anyway, for me its better to help make it a >>>> success than a flop. >>>> [Sidebar: I haven't managed to do much on it yet since I'm run ragged >>>> on a personal development course until mid-April >>>> that includes running a community project of my own... >>>> https://www.nanpopcode.fun/] >>>> >>>> >>>>> Now, yes, that money doesn't go into his own pockets (would be >>>>> criminal fraud), but the thing is, he controls this money. >>>>> Who will be the judges? Who will set parameters for the competition? >>>>> Transparency? >>>>> What is the benefit that goes back into the community? Now, it is >>>>> fine, that he is pushing for things like that, but again, he is >>>>> doing it without synchronising this effort with what is needed by >>>>> the community. >>>> >>>> He got a reasonable number of supporters on GoFundMe (I wasn't one at >>>> the time), >>>> and I believe the majority of the money comes from a few companies >>>> so I expect its really their opinion that counts about how their >>>> money is spent. >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>> * ...denies community leadership by merit (Pharo core developers >>>>>>>> do know, what they have created and where they want to go in the >>>>>>>> future, >>>>>>> I don't see him claiming leadership of our community or trying to >>>>>>> set our agenda. >>>>>>> He just didn't let community criticism of his writing slow him >>>>>>> down. >>>>>>> All I observed is that several people bit him and he bit back - >>>>>>> fairly usual sort of poor communication on both sides (including >>>>>>> me). >>>>> >>>>> Well, as written above, the manner of his web appearance is >>>>> implicitly a claim of community leadership. Not an exclusive one of >>>>> course, but he wants to be perceived of one of the most important >>>>> persons in the community (he told so many times, explicitly). And >>>>> given my experience, read above, this had already a (negative) >>>>> success with it. >>>>> And I think he is setting agenda: "Make Smalltalk great/mainstream >>>>> again" is the baseline, and that is something, only the core dev >>>>> team and the community as a whole can decide/make happen (I love >>>>> Smalltalk, but he promises wrong things, so if, just for example, >>>>> C++/Qt devs or _modern_ JS devs have a first look at Smalltalk with >>>>> the expectation they could already do the same thing as in their >>>>> usual platforms, they will be disappointed --> synchronize a >>>>> marketing agenda with what this great project currently is about, >>>>> but he is not willing to cooperate with the core dev team) >>>> >>>> Fair enough. Since in a couple of months I'll be helping him out, >>>> I'll have an opportunity to raise these concerns with him. >>>> >>>>>>> Him swearing about a group of Pharo people is good ammunition to >>>>>>> bring to the mail list to support your point, >>>>>>> but I also see he was rather provoked. Overall I feel this >>>>>>> extract was better left in that small corner of the internet >>>>>>> rather than fan flames here. >>>>> >>>>> :) Yeah... no! I think this is really a central point (so I put him >>>>> in the pillory here with intent). There is something called >>>>> community/FOSS ethics and structures. >>>>> He does not show _respect_ towards those people, who did the work, >>>>> but produces himself, and pushes for things, which the people who >>>>> devoted their work to this project, told him that it is >>>>> counter-productive. That is, in the long-run, a very dangerous >>>>> situation. >>>> >>>> I agree, its not great. But he didn't get a warm welcome and some of >>>> his early interactions were abrasive. >>>> Considering two extremes, you can either be inclusive and hopefully >>>> nurture/mold, or exclude and lose any chance at that. >>>> Like a lot of things, the path is somewhere in the middle and needs a >>>> bit of give and take on both sides. >>>> >>>>>>>> PS: a side note on Javascript (with lower S). wether you love or >>>>>>>> hate this quirky lovechild of Lisp and Self/Smalltalk, telling JS >>>>>>>> developers they are stupid and that they should abandon powerful >>>>>>>> Vue.js, for example, in favor of Amber Smalltalk [cudos to Amber >>>>>>>> devs! great thing!]) is utterly stupid! >>>>>>> Agree. But banning everyone in the world for similar stupidity >>>>>>> would leave the internet awfully quiet. >>>>> Sure! Again: I am against silencing or banning anybody (and how >>>>> could you). But if this becomes unbearable, there needs to be a >>>>> public separation, so he does not drag the project down. People need >>>>> to speak up against such usurpation. >>>> >>>> I appreciate the stand your are taking for the community. >>>> I've gained from your share of your workplace experience. >>>> >>>>>>>> (which in the end are only a self-serving, ego-centric, >>>>>>>> attention-greedy campaign to promote "Mr. Smalltalk" himself, a >>>>>>>> total newbie, who claims credit for the work of others). >>>>>>> Your repeated "claims credit for the work of others" is quite >>>>>>> provocative and I haven't noticed this in his writings. Could you >>>>>>> provide a link? >>>>> >>>>> See above, maybe it is a cultural thing, but as I told in my >>>>> experience, all of his appearance screams for being recognized as >>>>> one of the most important persons in the community (he is >>>>> condescendingly mocking marketing efforts of the last 40 years, >>>>> claims that he is the one who will "make smalltalk great again"...) >>>>> >>>>> Yes I am provocative this time, not my normal style (and I admit, I >>>>> was tripped-out by his provocative blog title "Even people who >>>>> understand prototypal programming do not like it â an inconvienent >>>>> truth"; that is dripping off arrogance and ignorance... And sheds a >>>>> bad light on Smalltalk, with which he wants to be identified in the >>>>> web) >>>> >>>> Got it. >>>> Let me ask to park this thread for the moment, because it can be >>>> quite distracting if everyone chips in an opinion. >>>> I think you've made some fair points and I'll put myself on the line >>>> to discuss them with Richard when I start helping him with his >>>> competition project. >>>> >>>> cheers -ben >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

April 10, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Richard Kenneth Eng is NOT Mr. Smalltalk

by Herby VojÄÃk

On 28. 2. 2019 18:02, Esteban Maringolo wrote: > Hi Michael, > > I share the belief that beyond some point pushing for something can > backfire, and if you keep going then you enter into the trolls or > fanatics zone. > > However I don't believe the community has to do something, or exclude > anybody. In a wild place like the web, all efforts to exclude, silence > or ban are futile, so it's up to each one to judge. Transliterating a > local saying: "When John speaks about Peter, it says more about John > than about Peter.". > > Regards, > > Esteban A. Maringolo +1 Herby

April 10, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Richard Kenneth Eng is NOT Mr. Smalltalk

by horrido

Just to prove that I'm a very reasonable person, I make this unconditional offer... If Michael can identify which of my JavaScript and Python articles are in error and point out the specific falsehoods, I will correct them. I presume that not ALL of my criticisms are unjustified. This should assuage any concerns that JavaScript and Python developers who read my articles are mislead and think I don't know what I'm talking about. I trust this will prevent Smalltalk (and Pharo) from being placed in a bad light. See? I can be very accommodating. I look forward to the suggested amendments. horrido wrote > BTW, I've also said many unkind things about Python. And C++. And Scala > and > Swift. But I'm being criticized for what I've said about JavaScript? > Really??? > > There is certainly no hint of bias here. > > > > Michael J. Zeder wrote >> Hey Ben, >> >> I leave it with this answer, as you suggested, thank you for picking up >> the ball! >> First, I admit again, I have thought about it one whole day, if and how >> I should do this "intervention", which is absolutly not my usual style, >> but I decided for myself, to be intentionally blunt, provocative, and >> parade his virtual presence around here in front of all Pharo users... >> In the hope that this kicks off something and, of course, that it will >> not be the final word. >> >> I tried to avoid being seen as the hurt one (seems, that I did not >> quite succeed with this). Javascript is most popular, so R.K. Eng >> cannot damage this platform with his â let's say... â "opinions", >> but he can damage Smalltalk and its small community. So I started with >> making noise, not with the story from my client's managers, who >> dismissed Pharo, because of his highly ranked Google search results â >> last year (But in fact, I was annoyed two days ago, I was googling >> actually a very specific topic about compiler optimization in >> prototype-based OO, and R.K. Engs ill-informed superficial "lecturing" >> rants showed up again at third or fourth place, I think, sigh). >> >> Short answers to your questions: >> >> * Yep, one main concern is his connection between Smalltalk advocacy >> and discrediting other languages â or making dogmatic, condescending >> and un-empirical statements of strong typing over weak typing, or >> class-based over prototype-based OO etc. Just separate that clearly. JS >> has huge momentum (IMHO absolutly justified), and it would be advisable >> to say something like "Hey, you like JS? Then look at ST, it is similar >> but the 'original thing', more pure, and takes the basic concepts even >> further". >> >> * I have to correct myself concerning "wrong statements about ST": it >> is not so much, that he writes "wrong" things about Pharo, but it is >> more that R.K.Eng often uses old 1980ies marketing language (like "It >> is just objects all the way down!"). That was nice back then, a >> completely new way of thinking, but today, a whole bunch of languages >> has sprung up from this legacy (dynamic, OO, introspection etc.), among >> them JS, and have taken the concepts to new forms. His superficial >> knowledge combined with the over-confident and condescending attitude >> scares away interested people. The quote I mentioned ("just object all >> the way down") was one of the blog topics the managers, to whom I tried >> to advertise Pharo, found ridiculous and laughed at it ("does it work >> by magic then? What are the primitives and basic value types then?" >> etc). >> >> * Pushing ones own projects is fine, again. But all his publicity >> effort have a strong taste (maybe it is cultural), that he wants >> control public perception of the community (and thus steering it). >> Being "Mr. Smalltalk" is extremly presumptive, in German it would >> usually refer to an official spokesperson (I think actually, for native >> English speakers, too...). And if I remember correctly, he did not get >> a warm welcome, true, but before that, he showed up without any >> Smalltalk background and just proclaimed himself the new >> project/marketing manager, without ever asking, what the community >> actually needs and what the current state is. >> >> * The top search results in Google are a major concern for every FOSS >> project... >> >> * If a person constantly and loudly points out that he is "altruistic", >> and that his self-initiated work (unasked, and reasonably rejected in >> part) would be worth a lot of money, than this is the opposite of >> altruistic... Again, maybe a cultural thing. >> >> But yes, I like to see becoming this a success story. >> Thank you! M >> >> >> >> Am Fr, 1. MÃ¤r, 2019 um 6:15 NACHMITTAGS schrieb Ben Coman >> < > >> btc@ > >> >: >>> Hi Michael, >>> >>> Thanks for your thoughtful followup. >>> >>> On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 at 19:59, Michael Zeder < > >> post@ > >> > >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I have carefully thought about, if I should really go publicly >>>> against one person within the community, and to start this "tirade", >>>> including the possibility that this causes an escalation, of course >>>> you cannot/must not silence a person ("Streisand" effect, did not >>>> know the term, but very fitting). But I decided that this kind of >>>> public conflicts is what is needed (and will make the community look >>>> better, not worse), _if_ a certain point is reached. >>> >>> I certainly subscribe to the tenet "Community standards do not >>> maintain themselves: They're maintained by people actively applying >>> them, visibly, in public." [1] >>> And I understand the tension in deciding to do so, with the >>> accompanying risk of making things worse (been there myself) >>> For me what weakened your first post was the name calling and sense >>> you were coming from a position of hurt with a story you needed to >>> justify by "making him wrong". :) >>> Much better second time round. >>> >>> [1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#not_losing >>> >>> >>>> I stand by it, but have reconsidered some points: >>>> * I do (did) not call for _immediate_ exclusion, but an >>>> "admonishment" that if certain behaviour is not about to change >>>> fundamentally, the community will have to act (by publicly >>>> separating this individual out). >>>> * Take older articles down, which start flamewars against other >>>> languages, or more precise: separate them from Smalltalk advocacy! >>>> If he wants to flame JS (for its various birth defects), fine, but >>>> don't connect that with pro-Smalltalk articles, for example. >>> >>> That seems a reasonable position and a good way to frame it. >>> >>> >>>> * Community efforts shall follow follow some community consensus. >>>> Core developers are no dictators, of course, but they are the ones >>>> knowing, what the state of the project is, and where _their_ work >>>> will lead to. Constantly ignoring this common guidance is >>>> detrimental to the community. So either, learn Smalltalk core coding >>>> and challenge the leadership, or do accept that there is some common >>>> agenda (and there are lots of open tasks: writing tutorials, >>>> documentation, make old scientific research available, linking and >>>> connecting showcases). >>> >>> His earlier articles got hammered and its natural that created a >>> defensive position for him to disconnect from the community >>> leadership. >>> The trick as for everyone is to not carry those forever and try >>> starting anew. >>> >>> >>>> * Public opinion does matter. The fact I mentioned Google SEO was >>>> indeed the starting point for me, to get into or start this flame >>>> war. Here is my story: >>>> Two of my clients (medium-sized enterprises) are classical C++/C# >>>> Windows development companies. I advertised Pharo to them for an >>>> _internal_ tool (their commerical products won't change to Smalltalk >>>> of course, but for their own internal dev tasks, Pharo whould have >>>> been a nice fit). When the managers got back to me, they had googled >>>> it, and told me, this thing sounds very dubious ("unseriÃ¶s"). I >>>> enquired, what they had read, and they told me, this "spokesperson" >>>> (sic!!!) sounds like a trolling script kid, and they can't employ >>>> something which is developed (sic!!!) by such people. After some >>>> explanation, I managed to convince them, that this person is just a >>>> lonely person, who showed up out of nowhere, is not involved in the >>>> actual work, and just produces himself on the internet. But too >>>> late, their impression on Smalltalk was already formed by R.K.Engs >>>> "blogs" (in the meantime, they rank on top in Google search result). >>> >>> You should have led with that !!!! An experience has a lot more >>> power than an opinion. >>> >>> >>>> When I did some research of my own yesterday, and saw again, that >>>> R.K. Engs dubious blog entries were listed on top, I decided to take >>>> action. >>>> >>>> >>>> I like to answer to your balanced and thoughtful responses: >>>> >>>>> You may disagree about *how* he does such work, the actual content, >>>>> for sure, but that's a feedback better directed to mr. Eng himself. >>>> >>>> R.K. Eng has made it clear in the past many many times in uncertain >>>> wording, that he is not willing to follow community advice in these >>>> matters, if his gut is telling him something different... >>>> >>> >>> Some of that community advice has been delivered fairly >>> confrontation-ally and not really conducive to having someone listen. >>> >>>>> Hopefully I've expressed a balanced enough position that this >>>>> doesn't draw too many responses. >>>>> >>>> yes, you did. thank you. >>>> >>>> >>>>>> I agree "Mr Smalltalk" is quite a presumptive title, but really >>>>>> anyone following the mail lists soon gets an idea of who are the >>>>>> community merit leaders. >>>> >>>> Well, I disagree, based on the experience, I have written down >>>> above. The internet is very much about who is in the center of the >>>> focus (SEO/social media). Anybody new to Smalltalk will at first >>>> glance identify our community with this "spokesperson" (as I have >>>> experienced with two people, last year already btw) >>> >>> Point taken. >>> >>> >>>> Maybe it is a language thing, but "Mr. Smalltalk" is _extremely_ >>>> presumptive (in German, it means the embodiment of the denoted >>>> thing). If a person is not doing very very thorough reading of ages >>>> old mail list discussions or is researching, that this person in >>>> fact never committed any code to the repos, then any newcomer will >>>> think, this "Mr. Smalltalk" is at least a versed and informed >>>> Smalltalk developer (which, given his newbie questions he is >>>> absolutely not). >>> >>> Got it. So apart from fighting directly against his presumption to >>> the title (which seems difficult) >>> would cleaning some other-language-denigration from old articles go >>> some way towards mitigating your concern? >>> >>>>>> You are right he hasn't committed any code, but I've not actually >>>>>> seen him claim credit for any code in Pharo, so this point seems >>>>>> off. >>>> true. but as I just wrote, that is what people presume, given his >>>> way and manner of producing himself. If he wrote honestly wrote "I >>>> am a fanboy, supporter and advocate of Smalltalk...", great! But he >>>> claims he worked many many hours without a dime, but worth many >>>> dollars, and had "tremendous success" in creating a new Smalltalk >>>> wave. >>> >>> I'm pretty by many-hours-without-a dime he meant his evangelism. >>> If it didn't come across like that, that is probably specific >>> copy-edit feedback that would be useful to him. >>> >>>>>>> * ...is doing SEO to make Google show his own results before FOSS >>>>>>> community or sciences pages. >>>>>> I think its equally likely that most in our community are too busy >>>>>> coding to try getting articles ranked, >>>>>> so its more lack of effort by most of us. Most of his articles >>>>>> mention Pharo so people end up finding us anyway. >>>> might be true (some criticism to the community agenda..? different >>>> topic) >>>> The thing is, the wrong information are getting more and more in the >>>> focus of the internet, pushing aside the community-driven Pharo >>>> sites (or real scientific papers or well-done tutorials). >>> >>> I've read most of his articles. I don't think he gets much factually >>> wrong about Pharo (and has corrected those when pointed out). >>> It seems your main concern about wrong information is attacks on >>> other languages, which is fair. >>> >>> >>>>>> Any money he gets for his writing is not anything that concerns me >>>>>> personally. Those articles are his own effort. >>>> >>>> Sorry, misunderstanding! Of course, he may earn with his writing, >>>> whatever he gets for it. >>>> I was referring to the "up-coming" Smalltalk Coding Competition. >>> >>> btw, a few weeks ago when Richard asked for help to program the >>> competition, I volunteered. >>> I've criticized some of his articles, and maybe there are other >>> "better" the money could be spent, >>> but I admire he has stuck to his vision and think its a big thing he >>> has taken on. >>> If its going to happen anyway, for me its better to help make it a >>> success than a flop. >>> [Sidebar: I haven't managed to do much on it yet since I'm run ragged >>> on a personal development course until mid-April >>> that includes running a community project of my own... >>> https://www.nanpopcode.fun/] >>> >>> >>>> Now, yes, that money doesn't go into his own pockets (would be >>>> criminal fraud), but the thing is, he controls this money. >>>> Who will be the judges? Who will set parameters for the competition? >>>> Transparency? >>>> What is the benefit that goes back into the community? Now, it is >>>> fine, that he is pushing for things like that, but again, he is >>>> doing it without synchronising this effort with what is needed by >>>> the community. >>> >>> He got a reasonable number of supporters on GoFundMe (I wasn't one at >>> the time), >>> and I believe the majority of the money comes from a few companies >>> so I expect its really their opinion that counts about how their >>> money is spent. >>> >>> >>>>>>> * ...denies community leadership by merit (Pharo core developers >>>>>>> do know, what they have created and where they want to go in the >>>>>>> future, >>>>>> I don't see him claiming leadership of our community or trying to >>>>>> set our agenda. >>>>>> He just didn't let community criticism of his writing slow him >>>>>> down. >>>>>> All I observed is that several people bit him and he bit back - >>>>>> fairly usual sort of poor communication on both sides (including >>>>>> me). >>>> >>>> Well, as written above, the manner of his web appearance is >>>> implicitly a claim of community leadership. Not an exclusive one of >>>> course, but he wants to be perceived of one of the most important >>>> persons in the community (he told so many times, explicitly). And >>>> given my experience, read above, this had already a (negative) >>>> success with it. >>>> And I think he is setting agenda: "Make Smalltalk great/mainstream >>>> again" is the baseline, and that is something, only the core dev >>>> team and the community as a whole can decide/make happen (I love >>>> Smalltalk, but he promises wrong things, so if, just for example, >>>> C++/Qt devs or _modern_ JS devs have a first look at Smalltalk with >>>> the expectation they could already do the same thing as in their >>>> usual platforms, they will be disappointed --> synchronize a >>>> marketing agenda with what this great project currently is about, >>>> but he is not willing to cooperate with the core dev team) >>> >>> Fair enough. Since in a couple of months I'll be helping him out, >>> I'll have an opportunity to raise these concerns with him. >>> >>>>>> Him swearing about a group of Pharo people is good ammunition to >>>>>> bring to the mail list to support your point, >>>>>> but I also see he was rather provoked. Overall I feel this >>>>>> extract was better left in that small corner of the internet >>>>>> rather than fan flames here. >>>> >>>> :) Yeah... no! I think this is really a central point (so I put him >>>> in the pillory here with intent). There is something called >>>> community/FOSS ethics and structures. >>>> He does not show _respect_ towards those people, who did the work, >>>> but produces himself, and pushes for things, which the people who >>>> devoted their work to this project, told him that it is >>>> counter-productive. That is, in the long-run, a very dangerous >>>> situation. >>> >>> I agree, its not great. But he didn't get a warm welcome and some of >>> his early interactions were abrasive. >>> Considering two extremes, you can either be inclusive and hopefully >>> nurture/mold, or exclude and lose any chance at that. >>> Like a lot of things, the path is somewhere in the middle and needs a >>> bit of give and take on both sides. >>> >>>>>>> PS: a side note on Javascript (with lower S). wether you love or >>>>>>> hate this quirky lovechild of Lisp and Self/Smalltalk, telling JS >>>>>>> developers they are stupid and that they should abandon powerful >>>>>>> Vue.js, for example, in favor of Amber Smalltalk [cudos to Amber >>>>>>> devs! great thing!]) is utterly stupid! >>>>>> Agree. But banning everyone in the world for similar stupidity >>>>>> would leave the internet awfully quiet. >>>> Sure! Again: I am against silencing or banning anybody (and how >>>> could you). But if this becomes unbearable, there needs to be a >>>> public separation, so he does not drag the project down. People need >>>> to speak up against such usurpation. >>> >>> I appreciate the stand your are taking for the community. >>> I've gained from your share of your workplace experience. >>> >>>>>>> (which in the end are only a self-serving, ego-centric, >>>>>>> attention-greedy campaign to promote "Mr. Smalltalk" himself, a >>>>>>> total newbie, who claims credit for the work of others). >>>>>> Your repeated "claims credit for the work of others" is quite >>>>>> provocative and I haven't noticed this in his writings. Could you >>>>>> provide a link? >>>> >>>> See above, maybe it is a cultural thing, but as I told in my >>>> experience, all of his appearance screams for being recognized as >>>> one of the most important persons in the community (he is >>>> condescendingly mocking marketing efforts of the last 40 years, >>>> claims that he is the one who will "make smalltalk great again"...) >>>> >>>> Yes I am provocative this time, not my normal style (and I admit, I >>>> was tripped-out by his provocative blog title "Even people who >>>> understand prototypal programming do not like it â an inconvienent >>>> truth"; that is dripping off arrogance and ignorance... And sheds a >>>> bad light on Smalltalk, with which he wants to be identified in the >>>> web) >>> >>> Got it. >>> Let me ask to park this thread for the moment, because it can be >>> quite distracting if everyone chips in an opinion. >>> I think you've made some fair points and I'll put myself on the line >>> to discuss them with Richard when I start helping him with his >>> competition project. >>> >>> cheers -ben > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

April 10, 2019