- Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by CÃ©drick BÃ©ler

Hi Lorenzo, Thanks for the explanation. > Le 5 fÃ©vr. 2020 Ã 16:06, Lorenzo <lorenzo(a)edor.it> a Ã©crit : > > Hi Cedrick, > > this version is an evolution of an application that I presented maybe at 3Â° or 4Â° ESUG held and promoted in UniversitÃ Cattolica di Brescia, were I was professor of O.R. > After that, I implemented 3 or 4 new versions using some algorithms I created. > I have been very lucky becouse I found a real application in foot-ball major league in Italy and I undersood the importance this field. Cool, indeed :) > Than, I added genetic algorithm to my implementation in order to optimize the application and (as I had experince in stock exchange field) I developed the application I have sent to Richard. > If you are interested to the application, I should be pleased to share my experience with everyone could be interested, but only if we can SHARE our experiences and, possibly to create commercial application to be sold. Iâm more inclined in open-source projects, but this being said nothing prevents commercial application. > Anyway, if you want to work in this field, I will be happy to share my experience with you Iâm an assistant professor, not really working in this field (itâs Â« only Â» a tool for me to model information with its inherent (epistemic) uncertainty). Iâll contact you offlist to discuss more on the subject, especially on the way you model you fuzzy subsets. Cheers, CÃ©drick > > Lorenzo > > Da: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] Per conto di CÃ©drick BÃ©ler > Inviato: mercoledÃ¬ 5 febbraio 2020 14:32 > A: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>> > Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk > > > >> >> >>> On 5 Feb 2020, at 13:28, Lorenzo <lorenzo(a)edor.it <mailto:lorenzo@edor.it>> wrote: >>> >>> Anyway, if I can say my opinion, the observation ridicolous. >> >> Even though the article is interesting, there is no mention of the word 'Pharo' anywhere in the article, nor in any of the 3 slide presentations. Nor is there any Pharo or even Smalltalk code to be seen. > > > It is interesting indeed and I also agree that at least, if we had some code to see, that would be ok to me, because people can decide to port eventually. > > Iâm interested in all tool that manage uncertainty. Instead of Fuzzy Logic, I chose The Transferable Belief Model [1] 10y ago, (a derivative of Dempster Shafer Theory). > But this is probably different in essence, also it seems that it goes further that fuzzy logic since I see some genetic algorithms mentions. > > Iâd be interested though to look and try your system (and eventually port it to pharo if the licence is MIT). The term fuzzy world sounds nice to me. > > >> >> It is very well possible that you have an application in Pharo, if so, I and everybody on this list would be *very* interesting is learning more about it. > > Sure, also the thread was not easy to get. Do not take it personally, but mailing-list have to be friendly moderated ;-) > > Is your code open source ? > > > Cheers, > > CÃ©drick > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transferable_belief_model <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transferable_belief_model> > > >> >> Sven >>

Feb. 5, 2020

R: Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by Lorenzo

Hi Rich, I share completely your opinion; ST is the real point; let's go on! If you are interested, I have an application (MIDA - Management Integrato Dati Aziendali) which first version has been HP official application for companies in Italy. Ciao package Lorenzo -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di horrido Inviato: mercoledÃ¬ 5 febbraio 2020 15:56 A: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk I see two major points here. First, that this forum is supposedly only for Pharo-related matters (not general Smalltalk-related matters), and second, that people want to see actual source code. I think this is too narrow a viewpoint and here's why. First, the Pharo Smalltalk Users forum is, as far as I can tell, the largest Smalltalk-related forum in the world. This is a testament to the popularity and power of Pharo. So, if you want to reach the *largest Smalltalk audience*, this is unquestionably the best forum to do so. We should not limit ourselves to only Pharo-related matters; this doesn't help the broader Smalltalk community. There are many subscribers here who use other Smalltalks. They may come here simply because the forum is so large. If the size of the Pharo forum was insignificant, why would others bother to come here? I've said this before: a rising tide lifts all boats. We should help each other...Pharo, Squeak, VA Smalltalk, GemStone/S, etc. This is a great community, so let's not sequester ourselves into cliques. Of course, I'm not suggesting that Cincom users come here for user support. Exercise good judgement here. But we can discuss Smalltalk topics of a more general nature. It's a two-way street: Pharo and other Smalltalks can cross-fertilize with each other. That's why Lorenzo's article is so valuable. Second, Lorenzo's article didn't show source code, but it did provide an interesting backdrop. We can see the value of fuzzy logic and how Lorenzo applied it. This may inspire others to follow up on this in whatever way they deem appropriate. Maybe someone will implement fuzzy logic in Pharo! That would be something. I would like to believe that the Pharo community is a generous and gracious one. That would help Smalltalkers everywhere. All for one and one for all. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Feb. 5, 2020

R: Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by Lorenzo

Hi Cedrick, this version is an evolution of an application that I presented maybe at 3Â° or 4Â° ESUG held and promoted in UniversitÃ Cattolica di Brescia, were I was professor of O.R. After that, I implemented 3 or 4 new versions using some algorithms I created. I have been very lucky becouse I found a real application in foot-ball major league in Italy and I undersood the importance this field. Than, I added genetic algorithm to my implementation in order to optimize the application and (as I had experince in stock exchange field) I developed the application I have sent to Richard. If you are interested to the application, I should be pleased to share my experience with everyone could be interested, but only if we can SHARE our experiences and, possibly to create commercial application to be sold. Anyway, if you want to work in this field, I will be happy to share my experience with you Lorenzo Da: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di CÃ©drick BÃ©ler Inviato: mercoledÃ¬ 5 febbraio 2020 14:32 A: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk On 5 Feb 2020, at 13:28, Lorenzo <lorenzo(a)edor.it <mailto:lorenzo@edor.it> > wrote: Anyway, if I can say my opinion, the observation ridicolous. Even though the article is interesting, there is no mention of the word 'Pharo' anywhere in the article, nor in any of the 3 slide presentations. Nor is there any Pharo or even Smalltalk code to be seen. It is interesting indeed and I also agree that at least, if we had some code to see, that would be ok to me, because people can decide to port eventually. Iâm interested in all tool that manage uncertainty. Instead of Fuzzy Logic, I chose The Transferable Belief Model [1] 10y ago, (a derivative of Dempster Shafer Theory). But this is probably different in essence, also it seems that it goes further that fuzzy logic since I see some genetic algorithms mentions. Iâd be interested though to look and try your system (and eventually port it to pharo if the licence is MIT). The term fuzzy world sounds nice to me. It is very well possible that you have an application in Pharo, if so, I and everybody on this list would be *very* interesting is learning more about it. Sure, also the thread was not easy to get. Do not take it personally, but mailing-list have to be friendly moderated ;-) Is your code open source ? Cheers, CÃ©drick [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transferable_belief_model Sven

Feb. 5, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by horrido

I see two major points here. First, that this forum is supposedly only for Pharo-related matters (not general Smalltalk-related matters), and second, that people want to see actual source code. I think this is too narrow a viewpoint and here's why. First, the Pharo Smalltalk Users forum is, as far as I can tell, the largest Smalltalk-related forum in the world. This is a testament to the popularity and power of Pharo. So, if you want to reach the *largest Smalltalk audience*, this is unquestionably the best forum to do so. We should not limit ourselves to only Pharo-related matters; this doesn't help the broader Smalltalk community. There are many subscribers here who use other Smalltalks. They may come here simply because the forum is so large. If the size of the Pharo forum was insignificant, why would others bother to come here? I've said this before: a rising tide lifts all boats. We should help each other...Pharo, Squeak, VA Smalltalk, GemStone/S, etc. This is a great community, so let's not sequester ourselves into cliques. Of course, I'm not suggesting that Cincom users come here for user support. Exercise good judgement here. But we can discuss Smalltalk topics of a more general nature. It's a two-way street: Pharo and other Smalltalks can cross-fertilize with each other. That's why Lorenzo's article is so valuable. Second, Lorenzo's article didn't show source code, but it did provide an interesting backdrop. We can see the value of fuzzy logic and how Lorenzo applied it. This may inspire others to follow up on this in whatever way they deem appropriate. Maybe someone will implement fuzzy logic in Pharo! That would be something. I would like to believe that the Pharo community is a generous and gracious one. That would help Smalltalkers everywhere. All for one and one for all. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Feb. 5, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by CÃ©drick BÃ©ler

> >> On 5 Feb 2020, at 13:28, Lorenzo <lorenzo(a)edor.it> wrote: >> >> Anyway, if I can say my opinion, the observation ridicolous. > > Even though the article is interesting, there is no mention of the word 'Pharo' anywhere in the article, nor in any of the 3 slide presentations. Nor is there any Pharo or even Smalltalk code to be seen. It is interesting indeed and I also agree that at least, if we had some code to see, that would be ok to me, because people can decide to port eventually. Iâm interested in all tool that manage uncertainty. Instead of Fuzzy Logic, I chose The Transferable Belief Model [1] 10y ago, (a derivative of Dempster Shafer Theory). But this is probably different in essence, also it seems that it goes further that fuzzy logic since I see some genetic algorithms mentions. Iâd be interested though to look and try your system (and eventually port it to pharo if the licence is MIT). The term fuzzy world sounds nice to me. > > It is very well possible that you have an application in Pharo, if so, I and everybody on this list would be *very* interesting is learning more about it. Sure, also the thread was not easy to get. Do not take it personally, but mailing-list have to be friendly moderated ;-) Is your code open source ? Cheers, CÃ©drick [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transferable_belief_model <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transferable_belief_model> > > Sven > > >

Feb. 5, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] R: Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 5 Feb 2020, at 13:28, Lorenzo <lorenzo(a)edor.it> wrote: > > Anyway, if I can say my opinion, the observation ridicolous. Even though the article is interesting, there is no mention of the word 'Pharo' anywhere in the article, nor in any of the 3 slide presentations. Nor is there any Pharo or even Smalltalk code to be seen. It is very well possible that you have an application in Pharo, if so, I and everybody on this list would be *very* interesting is learning more about it. Sven

Feb. 5, 2020

About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

by Norbert Hartl

I think it is time again to remind people on this list about a subtle but important difference: pharo is not smalltalk You can read this either way and like it or not. But this is a pharo list which wants to focus on the development and usage of pharo. It is not the place for "all things smalltalk". If you have a smalltalk topic please find the appropriate channel to publish or advocate. There are many smalltalkers out there that do not read this list. So in order to reach the people that are interested in smalltalk there are plenty of better channels to put things there. We know that a bit of off-topic discussion is normal but we want to remind everyone to try keeping that really low or find better channels to put that. Norbert

Feb. 5, 2020

R: Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by Lorenzo

Hi Serge, I suggest you to live in Italy, where burocracy is at it best. Lorenzo Da: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di Serge Stinckwich Inviato: mercoledÃ¬ 5 febbraio 2020 13:15 A: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk Hi Peter, don't want to discuss about that endlessly :-) We receive already all a lot of emails from various lists. There may be a few off-topic messages, but let's try to focus mainly on Pharo on pharo-users mailing-list. There was a message from Stephane about that some days ago and I agree with him. People who want to discuss about merits of Smalltalk, should create a Smalltalk advocacy mailing-list. There is also an off-topic channel on Discord also. Best, On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 1:03 PM PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk <mailto:peter@pbkresearch.co.uk> > wrote: Norbert Is that really all you can see? If you trace back this thread, it began with a post (less than 24 hours ago) by Richard Kenneth Eng, drawing attention to a blog post by Lorenzo, whose title is also the subject of the thread: https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/02/04/fuzzy-thinking-in-smalltalk/ Everything since then has been talking about that or about finding a link to an earlier post by Lorenzo. I found the post interesting; my reaction is to wish there were more details. It is not Pharo, but is a Smalltalk application. I see no reason why you and Serge should say this is not suitable for this group; there are many posts here about non-Pharo Smalltalk activities. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org> > On Behalf Of Norbert Hartl Sent: 05 February 2020 11:23 To: Pharo users users <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk Am 05.02.2020 um 10:53 schrieb Lorenzo < <mailto:lorenzo@edor.it> lorenzo(a)edor.it>: I am sorry; I was not awer of this kind of problem. Do you think that an application in Smalltalk is not interesting for Pharo users even if it has been developped in Pharo? which application? I just read about things you've lost and wordpress problems regarding a blog. Norbert Lorenzo Mehr anzeigen von Norbert Hartl âhâ Mehr anzeigen von Norbert Hartl Int. Research Unit on Modelling/Simulation of Complex Systems (UMMISCO) âSorbonne University (SU) French National Research Institute for Sustainable Development (IRD)â U âniversity of YaoundÃ© Iâ Mehr anzeigen von Norbert Hartl "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." <https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich> https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich â -- Serge Stinckwic âhâ Int. Research Unit on Modelling/Simulation of Complex Systems (UMMISCO) âSorbonne University (SU) French National Research Institute for Sustainable Development (IRD)â U âniversity of YaoundÃ© Iâ, Cameroon "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich â

Feb. 5, 2020

R: Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by Lorenzo

Thank you Peter, I am astonished. Lorenzo Da: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di PBKResearch Inviato: mercoledÃ¬ 5 febbraio 2020 12:59 A: 'Any question about pharo is welcome' <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk Norbert Is that really all you can see? If you trace back this thread, it began with a post (less than 24 hours ago) by Richard Kenneth Eng, drawing attention to a blog post by Lorenzo, whose title is also the subject of the thread: https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/02/04/fuzzy-thinking-in-smalltalk/ Everything since then has been talking about that or about finding a link to an earlier post by Lorenzo. I found the post interesting; my reaction is to wish there were more details. It is not Pharo, but is a Smalltalk application. I see no reason why you and Serge should say this is not suitable for this group; there are many posts here about non-Pharo Smalltalk activities. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org> > On Behalf Of Norbert Hartl Sent: 05 February 2020 11:23 To: Pharo users users <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk Am 05.02.2020 um 10:53 schrieb Lorenzo < <mailto:lorenzo@edor.it> lorenzo(a)edor.it>: I am sorry; I was not awer of this kind of problem. Do you think that an application in Smalltalk is not interesting for Pharo users even if it has been developped in Pharo? which application? I just read about things you've lost and wordpress problems regarding a blog. Norbert Lorenzo <x-redundant-cluster-toggle://0> Mehr anzeigen von Norbert Hartl âhâ <x-redundant-cluster-toggle://1> Mehr anzeigen von Norbert Hartl Int. Research Unit on Modelling/Simulation of Complex Systems (UMMISCO) âSorbonne University (SU) French National Research Institute for Sustainable Development (IRD)â U âniversity of YaoundÃ© Iâ <x-redundant-cluster-toggle://2> Mehr anzeigen von Norbert Hartl "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." <https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich> https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich â

Feb. 5, 2020

R: Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by Lorenzo

I am sorry, but I had just finished to create a SMALLTALK application with Richard and I have asked him for a previous work I have done with him. Anyway, if I can say my opinion, the observation ridicolous. Lorenzo Da: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di Norbert Hartl Inviato: mercoledÃ¬ 5 febbraio 2020 12:23 A: Pharo users users <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk Am 05.02.2020 um 10:53 schrieb Lorenzo <lorenzo(a)edor.it <mailto:lorenzo@edor.it> >: I am sorry; I was not awer of this kind of problem. Do you think that an application in Smalltalk is not interesting for Pharo users even if it has been developped in Pharo? which application? I just read about things you've lost and wordpress problems regarding a blog. Norbert Lorenzo <x-redundant-cluster-toggle://0> Mehr anzeigen von Norbert Hartl âhâ <x-redundant-cluster-toggle://1> Mehr anzeigen von Norbert Hartl Int. Research Unit on Modelling/Simulation of Complex Systems (UMMISCO) âSorbonne University (SU) French National Research Institute for Sustainable Development (IRD)â U âniversity of YaoundÃ© Iâ <x-redundant-cluster-toggle://2> Mehr anzeigen von Norbert Hartl "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." <https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich> https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich â

Feb. 5, 2020