- Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-project] Nearly limitless Image: revisited.

by Marcus Denker

On Feb 29, 2012, at 12:59 PM, Janko MivÅ¡ek wrote: > Hi Ted, > > I also support the image as a sole persistence idea and I'm actually > using it for years on VisualWorks. > > For Pharo there seems everyone is avoiding this idea, mostly because of > image corruption fear. Well, we need to improve the robustness of Pharo > image and VM then this fear will vanish. It is obviously doable, if VW > is reliable enough, why not once Pharo? > Someone needs to start fixing and improving. Why not, for example, you? Here is a link: http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/list It's much better than talking. Marcus -- Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de

Feb. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] Nearly limitless Image: revisited.

by Janko MivÅ¡ek

Hi Ted, I also support the image as a sole persistence idea and I'm actually using it for years on VisualWorks. For Pharo there seems everyone is avoiding this idea, mostly because of image corruption fear. Well, we need to improve the robustness of Pharo image and VM then this fear will vanish. It is obviously doable, if VW is reliable enough, why not once Pharo? Best regards Janko S, ted f.a. van gaalen piÅ¡e: > "I first used image persistence but the image grow too large.." > thanks for reminding, Norbert. > > > Hi all, > > perhaps you'll find me an idiot, I don't care. > (i know that I am: (class SelfReflection :o) ) > > Nevertheless, some brainstorming here. > > I've brought this up before, but it seems nobody is interested in this > topic.. why? > > it's about image size. > > Currently, Pharo 1.3-13315 at my 4 Gigabyte Debian amd64 Linux machine > reports > > memory 75,392,160 bytes > old 61,370,144 bytes (81.4%) > young 2,169,692 bytes (2.9000000000000004%) > used 63,539,836 bytes (84.30000000000001%) > free 11,852,324 bytes (15.700000000000001%) > > (nothing peculiar added, just the Seaside package and a few classes of > my own. ) > > So, if i understand this well I have only 11,8 megabytes to play with? > > To begin with: why is only 75 megabyte available in Pharo (or Squeak as > well) > when there is 4 gigabyte physical memory available on my machine?? > > Anyway, IMHO this very limited storage violates the Smalltalk-all-in-one > image ideal, > because with this limited storage one cannot avoid the use of external > data stores > like databases (of course, exception: there always will be import an > export of objects/data) > > External data storage is complex, unreliable and should be something of > the past. > I'd suggest: don't waste time with this. rather improve the Smalltalk > internal data handling. > > I wish to have a very large image so e.q. I can have an entire > company's administration > (client and accounting data etc.) alive in it. > I want to use Collections and descendants, not external databases. > So, everything within the image. > > The beautiful (although opinions may vary) principle > of a Smalltalk environment is Image Persistence, isn't it? > > IMHO this requires: > - virtually unlimited image memory size. > -no external databases like e.g. Mongo or DB2 whatever. > -no persistent external storage at all. > > -You should see the (currently still) faster database performance as a > challenge > to improve the Collection and other related data handling classes > > -You would have to completely restructure the architecture. > or just extend the address width: 64 bits? > > what about an image of virtually unlimited size > gigabytes so > > (for now, if it goes beyond the physical memory size (say 32 GB?) > one could use a VM that works with virtual storage based VM > Virtual storage was first in use successfully with IBM mainframes > in the 1970s (and still is) ) > > on the other hand, I estimate holographic? physical memory > going in Terabytes is about to be available in 5-10 years from now. > blindingly fast, compared with today's standards. > > So, one has about 5 years to come up with such a system :o) > if one does, Smalltalk is ahead of everything then.. > > Don't laugh. One didn't even dream of 4 gigabytes of memory > during the Commodore 64 era. 1982-1994. > > In short: what would have to be changed to enable this? > > Some thoughts and speculations? > Anyone for tennis? > > Thanks > Ted > > > > > > -- Janko MivÅ¡ek Aida/Web Smalltalk Web Application Server http://www.aidaweb.si

Feb. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] Nearly limitless Image: revisited.

by David Graham

On 2/28/12 5:44 PM, Norbert Hartl wrote: > > > You can read the LOOM paper [1] or you can have a look at GemStone [2] > I was interested in this as well. After some googling for the LOOM paper, I discovered it's in the " Smalltalk-80 Bits of History, Words of Advice " (green book). Pages 251-271. http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks/BitsOfHistory/BitsOfHistory.pdf

Feb. 29, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] Nearly limitless Image: revisited.

by Norbert Hartl

Am 28.02.2012 um 23:25 schrieb ted f.a. van gaalen: > In short: what would have to be changed to enable this? > You can read the LOOM paper [1] or you can have a look at GemStone [2] > Some thoughts and speculations? Yes. Predictions about how long it takes for something technical to become true are always too short termed. :) I think that the gap between volatile memory and persistent memory is only a necessity nothing natural. The gap will be closed somewhere in the future. Having a LOOM architecture helps mitigate the effect of the gap if not make it unnoticable. From then on you just need to buy the newest things like SSDs to make it happen sooner. > Anyone for tennis? Sure. Didn't play for a long time and over 500Km is bit far off, don't you think? :) Norbert [1] http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=94112 [2] http://www.gemstone.com/products/gemstone

Feb. 28, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] Nearly limitless Image: revisited.

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

On 28 Feb 2012, at 23:25, ted f.a. van gaalen wrote: > it's about image size. > > Currently, Pharo 1.3-13315 at my 4 Gigabyte Debian amd64 Linux machine reports > > memory 75,392,160 bytes > old 61,370,144 bytes (81.4%) > young 2,169,692 bytes (2.9000000000000004%) > used 63,539,836 bytes (84.30000000000001%) > free 11,852,324 bytes (15.700000000000001%) > > (nothing peculiar added, just the Seaside package and a few classes of my own. ) > > So, if i understand this well I have only 11,8 megabytes to play with? > > To begin with: why is only 75 megabyte available in Pharo (or Squeak as well) > when there is 4 gigabyte physical memory available on my machine?? You are interpreting this wrongly: total memory allocation of the heap did not yet grow beyond 75Mb because you still have 11Mb free, so there was not need for it. See this thread: http://forum.world.st/Big-Image-Tests-td4188045.html#a4188548 Although you cannot allocate much more than 1Gb, that is already more than enough for a lot of purposes. Of course, 64-bit VMs / Smalltalk images would be helpful in growing even larger, there seems to be some progress there. Sven

Feb. 28, 2012

Nearly limitless Image: revisited.

by ted f.a. van gaalen

"I first used image persistence but the image grow too large.." thanks for reminding, Norbert. Hi all, perhaps you'll find me an idiot, I don't care. (i know that I am: (class SelfReflection :o) ) Nevertheless, some brainstorming here. I've brought this up before, but it seems nobody is interested in this topic.. why? it's about image size. Currently, Pharo 1.3-13315 at my 4 Gigabyte Debian amd64 Linux machine reports memory 75,392,160 bytes old 61,370,144 bytes (81.4%) young 2,169,692 bytes (2.9000000000000004%) used 63,539,836 bytes (84.30000000000001%) free 11,852,324 bytes (15.700000000000001%) (nothing peculiar added, just the Seaside package and a few classes of my own. ) So, if i understand this well I have only 11,8 megabytes to play with? To begin with: why is only 75 megabyte available in Pharo (or Squeak as well) when there is 4 gigabyte physical memory available on my machine?? Anyway, IMHO this very limited storage violates the Smalltalk-all-in-one image ideal, because with this limited storage one cannot avoid the use of external data stores like databases (of course, exception: there always will be import an export of objects/data) External data storage is complex, unreliable and should be something of the past. I'd suggest: don't waste time with this. rather improve the Smalltalk internal data handling. I wish to have a very large image so e.q. I can have an entire company's administration (client and accounting data etc.) alive in it. I want to use Collections and descendants, not external databases. So, everything within the image. The beautiful (although opinions may vary) principle of a Smalltalk environment is Image Persistence, isn't it? IMHO this requires: - virtually unlimited image memory size. -no external databases like e.g. Mongo or DB2 whatever. -no persistent external storage at all. -You should see the (currently still) faster database performance as a challenge to improve the Collection and other related data handling classes -You would have to completely restructure the architecture. or just extend the address width: 64 bits? what about an image of virtually unlimited size > gigabytes so (for now, if it goes beyond the physical memory size (say 32 GB?) one could use a VM that works with virtual storage based VM Virtual storage was first in use successfully with IBM mainframes in the 1970s (and still is) ) on the other hand, I estimate holographic? physical memory going in Terabytes is about to be available in 5-10 years from now. blindingly fast, compared with today's standards. So, one has about 5 years to come up with such a system :o) if one does, Smalltalk is ahead of everything then.. Don't laugh. One didn't even dream of 4 gigabytes of memory during the Commodore 64 era. 1982-1994. In short: what would have to be changed to enable this? Some thoughts and speculations? Anyone for tennis? Thanks Ted -- Ted F.A. van Gaalen Danketsweiler 608 D-88263 Horgenzell Germany T: +49 750 491 48 38 M: +49 151 587 862 47

Feb. 28, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] ProfStef - syntax highlighting

by Markus Schlager

On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, StÃ©phane Ducasse wrote: > so did you load it in the latest 1.4 and did it work now? Looks good, thanks! Markus

Feb. 28, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] pharo & arduino

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

have a look at Pharo By Example. You can drop a mcz file on the image. Open a monticello browser, ad the folder as repository (+ repository) and select the package you want to load. STef > Hello, > > i have installed pharo in ubuntu 11.10 > > > i have two version pharocore-1.3 and pharo1.3 > > i test the second > > i went to http://www.squeaksource.com/Arduino.html > > > i'm not a developper i'm simple beginner's user > > > i have installed arduino with avr and edi > > > i have a lot of .mcz file. > > > How does i load a class > > > i have run in workspace the two code > > one for arduino and other for metacelo > > but it does'nt happen > > > i read the beginner's page of pharo par l'exemple. > > > thanks a lot for your time > > > > > > >

Feb. 28, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-project] Who is using Fuel?

by Norbert Hartl

Am 28.02.2012 um 19:15 schrieb Yanni Chiu: > On 28/02/12 11:03 AM, Norbert Hartl wrote: >> >> I first used image persistence but the image grow to large. Then I added >> fuel as journal to be written before image save in order to be able to >> recover from an emergency. >> Now we redo the persistence part. An account object graph is dissected >> into configuration part and payload part. The payload is written >> directly to mongo db in a Json format. The configuration part will be >> written as fuel blob to mongo. Planned is that at startup a configured >> amount of account fuel blobs are loaded and started. Those >> configurations have their own proces ses that write back payload to >> mongo. Etc. > > That's similar to what I do, except no image save and no mongo db. > As soon as the fuel blobs are in mongo (or on disk) no image save is needed then and I will start fresh everytime which is more reliable. Mongo is quite nice because I have a few hundred megabytes of data. And via cron it runs a map/reduce task to create the statistics about the data that has been fetched. The statistical data is displayed in charts on the web site again. Norbert > Here's how it goes: > - on restart the image reconstructs a Pier kernel saved via Fuel to a file > - included in the Pier kernel is what you're calling the "configuration part" - there are custom (non-std Pier) components here. > - the components in the reconstructed image can read/write a "payload" part, which is serialized to files using Fuel and SandstoneDb. > - additionally, a "sub-tree" of the Pier kernel can be exported to a file using Fuel serialization, and later imported using Fuel deserialization. > > No URL available at the moment. > > Aside - before Fuel/SandstoneDb, I was using Glorp/PostgreSQL. I've gained a lot of simplicity, but lost sequence numbers and object caching (and maybe more things, that have not been a problem so far). I've written a seqno replacement, but the lack of object caching is not a problem at the moment (i.e. small data sets, so far). > >

Feb. 28, 2012

Re: [Pharo-users] Segmentation fault

by Bernat Romagosa

Thanks Igor, I'll get the latest one and report if the segfault still happens. Cheers, 2012/2/28 Igor Stasenko <siguctua(a)gmail.com> > On 28 February 2012 16:50, Bernat Romagosa > <tibabenfortlapalanca(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi list, > > > > We're getting this segfault from time to > > time: http://hastebin.com/kuvefebuhe.sm > > > > The crashes appear to happen randomly, we haven't been able to find out > what > > kind of behavior triggers them. > > > > Here's the machine specs: > > > > Smalltalk vmVersion 'Croquet Closure Cog VM [CoInterpreter > > VMMaker-oscog-IgorStasenko.123]' > > Smalltalk version 'Pharo1.3' > > Smalltalk osVersion 'linux-gnu' > > > > > > The Pharo image is a standard One-Click, and the OS is a Debian testing. > > > > Hope you can help us see what's going on... > > We're going to update VMs soon, i am currently working on making > windows builds, and then we'll do automated 1-click. > > You can download more recent vm from here: > > https://ci.lille.inria.fr/pharo/view/Cog/job/Cog-Unix/ > which is built automatically, > as well as use one, build by Eliot: > http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/ > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko. > > -- Bernat Romagosa.

Feb. 28, 2012