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Re: [Pharo-users] Domaintalk - PDF Files

by Bob Williams

I received the following comment: My interest is in understanding the utility of such a proposal in enterprise context viz: say in Banking Can Domain driven DSL provide a plausible power user interface for Banking apps driven primarily by UI screens and backend processes. MathsDomain specially may have an appeal in that direction. I responded: My concept of Domaintalk is that it would not be limited to one particular platform, but used on a wide range of platforms; in you example both for the PC, tablet, workstation and mainframe or server, maybe even phones. Its use would be open ended, limited only by the users' imagination. A simple example should suffice to convey my meaning, while not a domain per se, Digitalk's Smalltalk/V used a global dictionary to open up the OS2 and Windows APIs to the programmer, even allowing the user to extend the APIs made available; moreover, all of the OS specific attributes, like handles, were made available. Something that was not available in ObjectWorks and I am not sure is available int Pharo. If domains were added to Pharo, then I am sure someone working on the Pharo internals (VM) could make the OS APIs available and provide a means to add new ones. Such a domain would not even require exposure of the OS attributes of the window because the programmer could simply create their own windows. A word of caution, this would mean that use of that OS specific domain would limit the application to that specific platform; however, that is something that I am willing to live with, in fact, it is something I desire, then I could give the application user the UI that they expect, the one that matches their platform. I can see where a banking application could benefit from the SQL Domain and the Math Domain decimal class and methods, I recall the heavy use of the decimal data and instructions in the IBM mainframes. I can even envision a domain that wrapped the windowing API that made it more usable, so that someone could create another domain that used that domain to add a language that would make window creation easier, either a graphical window builder (similar to the WindowBuilder application of Smalltalk/V) or a scripting type language. The term banking congers up many things to me, of course there is the standard banking account transaction processing, but there also the investment side of the business and other backroom analytical functions. I believe that application for all those diverse requirement could benefit from Domaintalk. For about thirteen year I was the head of computer departments with multimillion dollar IBM MVS mainframes. One thing that I could count on was that when I took over a new department I would find a staff that though that programs always had bugs the they would need to fix. I always seemed that 40% of my programming resources was spend fixing bugs. (Just like the ObamaCare web site.) I established the policy that programmers created bugs, not programs, and implemented step to eliminate all bugs, including having the heads of projects that had bugs meet with me each morning for a very uncomfortable meeting. I took about six months to get the level of bugs down to an acceptable level, about 5%, and mostly in programs scheduled for replacement. So I am well aware of what is required for an enterprise quality application. One reason I want Domaintalk is that, I have observed that, code that is not readable lends itself to errors. Another observation is that when the syntax of a language is stretched beyond its intended use, it become unreadable. I apologize for the lengthy response and I look forward to your response, and answer to the DSL question. BW

May 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

by PBK Research

Hi Stephan Many thanks. I was missing the Magritte-Seaside component. The problem is now fixed. No doubt I will find others! I started from scratch and loaded all the packages because I wanted to understand how these things work, and because I needed a combination of things installed - I have also loaded Voyage and PetitParser, hoping to use all these things together. I did not expect to find all of these in a pre-built image - maybe I was wrong. Many thanks also for the speedy response. I posted my question and went to bed. I did not expect to get an answer after midnight. It is interesting to see that others work even stranger hours than I do! Thanks also to others who commented. To Stepharo: I did not mean to sound critical. I was wondering if an updated version already exists and I have not yet found it. I know quite a bit about Smalltalk from Dolphin, but I am new to Pharo and I feel like a blind man stumbling about. There are so many packages around, and I do not understand what most of them do. Could I just try one supplementary question about using Magritte. The paper 'Magritte - A Meta-Driven Approach to Empower Developers and End Users' by Lukas Renggli, Stephane Ducasse and Adrian Kuhn has a section 3.2 on building an editor, which shows how the same description can generate an editor in Seaside or in Morphic Squeak (!). I know that #asComponent will generate the Seaside version; is there a method #asMorph which will give the morphic version as easily, or if not how do I get an editor as a Pharo window? Thanks again for the help. Peter Kenny -----Original Message----- From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of Stephan Eggermont Sent: 13 May 2014 00:22 To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte Hi Peter That sounds like you have independently installed Seaside and Magritte. You might miss the part connecting them together. Seaside can be used without Magritte, and Magritte without Seaside. That happens if you just install stable Seaside and stable Magritte from the configuration browser. Can you check if you have Magritte-Seaside loaded? That is in the Seaside group of Magritte. If not, you need the other option in the configuration browser, just loading the configuration of Magritte3. Then in a workspace, do-it (ConfigurationOfMagritte3 project version: #stable) load: 'Seaside'. A faster way to start can be to use one of the images from https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/ Pier, QCMagritte and Forum all come with both Magritte and Seaside preloaded. Stephan

May 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

by phil＠highoctane.be

I ve both of these things working in my app on pharo3. I'll have a look. Le 13 mai 2014 09:25, "stepharo" <stepharo(a)free.fr> a Ã©crit : > > On 13/5/14 01:34, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote: > >> 2014-05-12 20:21 GMT-03:00 Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl>: >> >> A faster way to start can be to use one of the images from >>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/ >>> Pier, QCMagritte and Forum all come with both Magritte and Seaside >>> preloaded. >>> >> I don't like this "faster way" of prebuilt images. >> Makes me think of seeds for forked branches. >> Unless something is wrong with the package system, I would encourage >> its use, even if it takes long. >> > > why? > you can just read the configuration of the jenkins job and you know how to > build it. > The difference is that with the jenkins job we are SURE that the script to > load works. > > Stef > >> >> Regards, >> >> Esteban A. Maringolo >> >> >> > > >

May 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

by stepharo

On 13/5/14 01:34, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote: > 2014-05-12 20:21 GMT-03:00 Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl>: > >> A faster way to start can be to use one of the images from >> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/ >> Pier, QCMagritte and Forum all come with both Magritte and Seaside >> preloaded. > I don't like this "faster way" of prebuilt images. > Makes me think of seeds for forked branches. > Unless something is wrong with the package system, I would encourage > its use, even if it takes long. why? you can just read the configuration of the jenkins job and you know how to build it. The difference is that with the jenkins job we are SURE that the script to load works. Stef > > Regards, > > Esteban A. Maringolo > >

May 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

by stepharo

On 13/5/14 00:50, PBK Research wrote: > Hello > Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask this. I am trying to > understand how Magritte works, initially by following the first > example in Ch. 26.2 of the Seaside book. I have started with a fresh > download of Pharo 3.0, and I have installed Magritte 3 and Seaside 3. > I realise that the Seaside book example is based on Magritte 2, so I > have made necessary changes to the example code (descriptions are on > the instance side, insert <magritteDescription> pragmas, change > #description to #magritteDescription). All works well up to the point > where I try to generate the Seaside editor. This fails because the code: > Address example1 asComponent > produces a 'does not understand' message for #asComponent. I have not > been able to work through all of Seaside to see where this method is > defined, and I am at a bit of a loss. I know this is rather > elementary, but could someone give me a pointer? > Also, if Magritte 3 is now the norm, will the Seaside book examples be > updated to reflect this? They should but only I - reverse engineer Magritte 3 - get the time to do it I was planning to write an independent Chapter on Magrritte 3 but I got the same limits. So if somebody knowlegeable wants to start writing two/three blog posts we could turn it into a book chapter. > Thanks in advance for any help > Peter Kenny

May 13, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2014-05-12 20:47 GMT-03:00 Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl>: > Esteban wrote: >>I don't like this "faster way" of prebuilt images. >>Makes me think of seeds for forked branches. >>Unless something is wrong with the package system, I would encourage >>its use, even if it takes long. > > I strongly encourage the use of ci images. And of course you should > add your own, once you've decided what packages you need. > The main advantage is that it provides feedback to the core pharo > development on changes. I'm totally in about CI images for testing purposes, but not for distribution. Maybe it's a matter of personal taste. Esteban A. Maringolo ps: sorry for the off topic

May 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2014-05-12 20:47 GMT-03:00 Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl>: > Esteban wrote: >>I don't like this "faster way" of prebuilt images. >>Makes me think of seeds for forked branches. >>Unless something is wrong with the package system, I would encourage >>its use, even if it takes long. > > I strongly encourage the use of ci images. And of course you should > add your own, once you've decided what packages you need. > The main advantage is that it provides feedback to the core pharo > development on changes.

May 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

by Stephan Eggermont

Esteban wrote: >I don't like this "faster way" of prebuilt images. >Makes me think of seeds for forked branches. >Unless something is wrong with the package system, I would encourage >its use, even if it takes long. I strongly encourage the use of ci images. And of course you should add your own, once you've decided what packages you need. The main advantage is that it provides feedback to the core pharo development on changes. Stephan

May 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2014-05-12 20:21 GMT-03:00 Stephan Eggermont <stephan(a)stack.nl>: > A faster way to start can be to use one of the images from > https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/ > Pier, QCMagritte and Forum all come with both Magritte and Seaside > preloaded. I don't like this "faster way" of prebuilt images. Makes me think of seeds for forked branches. Unless something is wrong with the package system, I would encourage its use, even if it takes long. Regards, Esteban A. Maringolo

May 12, 2014

Re: [Pharo-users] Problem learning about Magritte

by Stephan Eggermont

Hi Peter That sounds like you have independently installed Seaside and Magritte. You might miss the part connecting them together. Seaside can be used without Magritte, and Magritte without Seaside. That happens if you just install stable Seaside and stable Magritte from the configuration browser. Can you check if you have Magritte-Seaside loaded? That is in the Seaside group of Magritte. If not, you need the other option in the configuration browser, just loading the configuration of Magritte3. Then in a workspace, do-it (ConfigurationOfMagritte3 project version: #stable) load: 'Seaside'. A faster way to start can be to use one of the images from https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/ Pier, QCMagritte and Forum all come with both Magritte and Seaside preloaded. Stephan

May 12, 2014