- Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] [Bulk] Blitzkrieg!

by Yanni Chiu

On Jan 17, 2015, at 10:15 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Later this summer, I will be pushing my "Small Minds Initiative," a > sub-campaign of the SRP to get Smalltalk into the classroom. I will begin > with the Toronto District School Board. Are you going to approach them from the point of view of: - computer science/programming education - or, education in general (e.g. One-Laptop-Per-Child) FYI, around ten years ago, during the peak interest in the (at that time) soon to be released One-Laptop-Per-Child machine, there were two meetings held on getting Smalltalk into the classroom at the TDSB. IIRC, in attendance were a handful of people - teacher, education specialist, industry Smalltalker. Getting software installed on TDSB computers is a political activity. Good luck.

Jan. 18, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by Ben Coman

On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 8:00 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > /IT management often make stupid choices based on fad, fashion, and > laziness./ I think partly its that above IT management you have non-IT management, who ask "who else is using it". Big companies often have trouble with the risk of innovation. Its not so much a matter of making the best choice, as avoiding a wrong choice. Its the small agile companies that innovate, and either fail, or succeed and subsequently be bought out by the big company.

Jan. 18, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] if Pharo is key for you

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Stef, pdf and Open Document Presentation (Libre Office) are fine as formats. Thanks, Offray El 12/01/15 a las 13:20, stepharo escribiÃ³: > In which format? > I will put them on a dropbox folder and send them to you. If I forget, > please reminded it to me. > > Stef > > Le 12/1/15 00:05, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas a Ã©crit : >> Hi, >> >> Yep, would be nice to have that slides to add to my open Zotero >> collection about Pharo/Smalltalk >> >> [1] >> https://www.zotero.org/groups/diseo_y_creacion_phd_msc_universidad_de_calda… >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Offray >> >> >> >> El 11/01/15 a las 15:05, stepharo escribiÃ³: >>> super! >>> It is always good to do retrospective analysis to see what we learned >>> and it looks like you learned a lot. >>> If you need pharo slides let me know. >>> >>> Stef >>> Le 11/1/15 17:21, Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas a Ã©crit : >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Just picking up some old threads, so I answer this below. >>>> >>>> El 18/09/13 a las 01:19, StÃ©phane Ducasse escribiÃ³: >>>>> Hi guys >>>>> >>>>> if Pharo is key for you then you should ask yourself what you did for >>>>> Pharo recently. >>>>> Writing code, writing documentation helping closing bug entries, >>>>> participating to the association, to the consortium... >>>>> >>>>> Pharo is not happening from spontaneous generation. >>>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>> >>>> Well I recently (previous semester) start to: >>>> >>>> 1. Learn Pharo. >>>> 2. Develop my own app to learn and write about the process [a][b]. I >>>> will be payed for this prototype and will be a paying member of the >>>> association. >>>> 3. Made my local group of Pharo/Smalltalk on Data narratives and >>>> visualization for Open/Garage/Citizen Science & Research at our local >>>> hackerspace with several (3 or 4) meetings that will continue this >>>> year [c]. >>>> 4. Read a lot of previous email to be aware the community memory and >>>> revive older threads when is possible and trying to be a more >>>> proactive/visible member of this community, even in my newbie >>>> condition. >>>> >>>> So, what I'm planing for this year: >>>> >>>> 1. To learn/teach more about Pharo specially moldable tools, fluid >>>> interfaces and good devel practices. >>>> 1. To have a good application with some data narratives and >>>> visualization build on it. A good download page, documentation and >>>> with clean code instead of the rookie one I have now. >>>> 2. To create a stronger local community around data >>>> visualization/narratives for Open/Garage/Citizen Sciecen & Research >>>> powered by Pharo. >>>> 3. To write more. >>>> 4. Economical contributions to the community through the association. >>>> 5. Hopefully make stronger ties to the international community in >>>> South America or Europe by participating in some event or scholarship >>>> (this will depend on costs). >>>> >>>> Thanks for the questions and I will be glad to read other >>>> answers/prospective about persons and Pharo, >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Offray >>>> >>>> Links: >>>> ====== >>>> >>>> [a] >>>> http://mutabit.com/deltas/repos.fossil/grafoscopio/doc/tip/Docs/Es/Articulo… >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [b] http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~Offray/Grafoscopio/ >>>> >>>> [c] http://hackbo.co/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > >

Jan. 18, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by horrido

Thanks for this link! I always thought there was something not right about Angular, and this article (and its links) clearly lay out the issue. Obviously, I think Amber is a better solution. The one big takeaway from these anti-Angular articles, I think, is this... /IT management often make stupid choices based on fad, fashion, and laziness./ They can't be bothered to do the actual research and investigation to see which technology best fits their goals and objectives. Presumably, one of their chief objectives is to improve productivity and save on (labour) costs. How can you meet this objective without at least trying one of the premier productivity technologies on the market, namely, Smalltalk? How can you not have heard the oft-repeated claims about Smalltalk's superlative productivity over the years? They've only been made year after year since the 1980s. All that is required is to run a pilot Smalltalk program. This will definitively answer the question: How much more productive can you be in developing software? Generalissimo sebastian(a)flowingconcept.com wrote >> On Jan 17, 2015, at 3:18 PM, kilon alios < > kilon.alios@ > > wrote: >> >> So overall I doubt that Smalltalk will ever be a big hit on JVM or >> Javascript. > > Everybody is a looser if you frame it in that perspective. > > That game is not interesting, nor strategy wise. > > An interesting alternative is to create the opportunity for people to take > their bite on the Java market and if they can do it, as small as it might > be thatâs all that really counts. > > James is already one of those someone will make it when the demand is > felt. > > If Redline Smalltalk saves significant costs to a company that has > invested heavy in something JVM-ish then you will have their attention. > > Productivity is one of the strongest opportunities for Smalltalk unless > our tools UI/UX sucks so bad it get deteriorated or the world catches up. > > And we have control over the UI/UX we provide. > > Have you ever thought that AngularJS is essentially a Google strategy to > bite Javaâs market > <http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2015/01/the_problem_wit.html>? -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799678p4800193.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 18, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by Sebastian Sastre

> On Jan 17, 2015, at 3:18 PM, kilon alios <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > So overall I doubt that Smalltalk will ever be a big hit on JVM or Javascript. Everybody is a looser if you frame it in that perspective. That game is not interesting, nor strategy wise. An interesting alternative is to create the opportunity for people to take their bite on the Java market and if they can do it, as small as it might be thatâs all that really counts. James is already one of those someone will make it when the demand is felt. If Redline Smalltalk saves significant costs to a company that has invested heavy in something JVM-ish then you will have their attention. Productivity is one of the strongest opportunities for Smalltalk unless our tools UI/UX sucks so bad it get deteriorated or the world catches up. And we have control over the UI/UX we provide. Have you ever thought that AngularJS is essentially a Google strategy to bite Javaâs market <http://www.quirksmode.org/blog/archives/2015/01/the_problem_wit.html>?

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by horrido

kilon.alios wrote > Porting code to JVM and Javascript has 3 issues > > a) you are no longer able to use the libraries of your popular > implementation (see Pharo) unless you wrap those libraries with something > like JNA (a ffi for JAVA) > b) most people would not use JVM unless if they have to and in most cases > it will be more likely their code will be written in JAVA so they use JAVA > c) JVM and Javascript languages are notorious for being slow , so once > again fall back to JAVA and Javascript Indeed, many organizations have to use JVM, and yes, they probably fall back on Java because that's the "safe" choice. It doesn't mean that we can't persuade them to try Smalltalk. Redline makes it easier to interoperate with the existing Java infrastructure. If we can't convince these organizations that they'll be much more productive using Smalltalk over Java, and save tons of money /in the long run/, then how can we ever advance our agenda to the rest of the world?? BTW, JVM and JS aren't /that/ slow any more. They're so well-optimized that, for most use cases, performance is no longer an issue. I know because my brother Robert used to work at IBM (he just quit yesterday!). > So those language ported to JVM act mainly as scripting languages, you got > a JAVA app which is probably quite big and you port small parts of it to > that other language to make your code more managable and less verbose. So Scala, Groovy, and Clojure are used mainly as scripting languages? That's not what I hear. > So overall I doubt that Smalltalk will ever be a big hit on JVM or > Javascript. The problem with smalltalk that other languages dont have is > that it comes with an IDE , which is both a blessing and a curse. The last > time I checked Pharo was 200k lines of codes, that is huge for a dynamic > language. If we take out the IDE we lose a big advantage as developers, > add > to that the fact that other IDEs have very limited supported for Smalltalk > and you end up as a not so cool situation especially if you are used to > code in Pharo. This is something I have against with Amber. I don't expect Smalltalk to become a big hit on the JVM or JS, either. But if it proves to be as popular as Scala, I'd be very satisfied! Making Smalltalk available to other domains is not simply a matter of checking off boxes. Strategically, it shows Smalltalk's versatility and that it's not just a one-trick pony. Limiting ourselves to just desktop (or Seaside) applications is rather short-sighted. > So the ideal scenario is for someone to do what Rtalk promised but that > would requires someone or some coder with very deep knowledge of the JVM, > So dont hold your breath. I won't, which is precisely why I support James Ladd's efforts. > My choice is sticking with Pharo, sure Javascript and Java are nice sirens > singing an irresistible song but I am not willing to give up the comforts > of Pharo just so I have access to Java and Javascript libraries. Tempting > but not that tempting. Pharo is an excellent choice if you are a lone > coder and you want to be very productive which if you think of it is > completely diffirent to what the JVM aims for which is big coder groups > and > big companies. I certainly don't want to limit Smalltalk to just lone developers and small software houses. That's the very definition of "niche." > On the other hand if there is a real need for Smalltalk on JVM then sooner > or later someone will step up and start something. Right now from what I > see Clojure and Scala are the only two langauge that get some attention , > again nowhere near as much as other popular languages but they still > somewhat popular. The thing with Clojure is that is not just lisp on JVM , > there was already lisp for JVM called ABCL and never got popular, Clojure > became popular not because its lisp but because it targeted concurrency > and > made it easier . If Smalltalk is to become ever as popular it has to bring > something similar to the table and I think concurency would not be a bad > idea either especially for those that are not big fans of lisp syntax and > prefer something like Smalltalk. As I intimated previously in my list of essay topics for the Smalltalk community, I believe it's important for us to address concurrency in Smalltalk. Yes, it would not only be a good idea, it would be /essential/. I think there's a real need for Smalltalk on JVM, and Mr. Ladd has indeed stepped up. The real question is, who among you will help him? Generalissimo -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799678p4800179.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by kilon alios

There was a promise long time ago that RTalk will be released soon enough and never happened. The difference with RTalk is not that is just smalltalk language on JVM , which frankly I dont care that much, but also the entire IDE, basically they replaced the Smalltalk bytecode with JVM bytecode and the rest is just smalltalk probably with the exception of few parts here and there. Porting code to JVM and Javascript has 3 issues a) you are no longer able to use the libraries of your popular implementation (see Pharo) unless you wrap those libraries with something like JNA (a ffi for JAVA) b) most people would not use JVM unless if they have to and in most cases it will be more likely their code will be written in JAVA so they use JAVA c) JVM and Javascript languages are notorious for being slow , so once again fall back to JAVA and Javascript So those language ported to JVM act mainly as scripting languages, you got a JAVA app which is probably quite big and you port small parts of it to that other language to make your code more managable and less verbose. Python started similarly as a scripting language for C and then C++ , again for similar reasons. As a language grow in popular the more it got its own libraries ,, even though even back then it allowed for easy access to C/C++ libraries. So overall I doubt that Smalltalk will ever be a big hit on JVM or Javascript. The problem with smalltalk that other languages dont have is that it comes with an IDE , which is both a blessing and a curse. The last time I checked Pharo was 200k lines of codes, that is huge for a dynamic language. If we take out the IDE we lose a big advantage as developers, add to that the fact that other IDEs have very limited supported for Smalltalk and you end up as a not so cool situation especially if you are used to code in Pharo. This is something I have against with Amber. So the ideal scenario is for someone to do what Rtalk promised but that would requires someone or some coder with very deep knowledge of the JVM, So dont hold your breath. My choice is sticking with Pharo, sure Javascript and Java are nice sirens singing an irresistible song but I am not willing to give up the comforts of Pharo just so I have access to Java and Javascript libraries. Tempting but not that tempting. Pharo is an excellent choice if you are a lone coder and you want to be very productive which if you think of it is completely diffirent to what the JVM aims for which is big coder groups and big companies. On the other hand if there is a real need for Smalltalk on JVM then sooner or later someone will step up and start something. Right now from what I see Clojure and Scala are the only two langauge that get some attention , again nowhere near as much as other popular languages but they still somewhat popular. The thing with Clojure is that is not just lisp on JVM , there was already lisp for JVM called ABCL and never got popular, Clojure became popular not because its lisp but because it targeted concurrency and made it easier . If Smalltalk is to become ever as popular it has to bring something similar to the table and I think concurency would not be a bad idea either especially for those that are not big fans of lisp syntax and prefer something like Smalltalk. On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 6:37 PM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I had never heard of RTalk or Gravel. In all my Googling, I've never come > across these two. They're obviously not on the minds of very many people. > Are they even active projects? > > At least Redline is relatively prominent. At least James Ladd is actively > working on it. His efforts should be commended and *supported*. > > Let's rally around the Redline project. This should be doable. > > Generalissimo > > > Stephan Eggermont wrote > > continued from pharo-dev, please keep discussion here. > > > > The smalltalk on jvm situation is exactly like it shouldn't be. > > There are three implementations, not working together: > > - RTalk > > - Gravel > > - Redline > > > > The first two are driven by existing commercial smalltalk users > > coming from a platform that they feel is not sufficiently > > developing (different ones). This amount of fragmentation is ridiculous. > > Of course they have different priorities and needs, but it should be > > possible to share the work that all three feel they have to do. > > The result is that at least two of them move forward very slowly. > > > > Stephan > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799678p4800173.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by Esteban A. Maringolo

If Redline is ready and good to build native (Java) Android apps with it, I'll be one of the first ones to try it. So I look forward to Redline 1.0 :) Esteban A. Maringolo 2015-01-17 13:46 GMT-03:00 horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com>: > I agree that Amber is important, given that client-side web development is > the /fad du jour/. But having a Smalltalk on the JVM is also important if we > want to penetrate the enterprise. JVM is the closest thing we have to a > "standard" enterprise platform. > > Languages such as Scala and Groovy have had some measure of success on the > JVM. I'd be happy if Smalltalk could achieve even this level of popularity! > > Generalissimo > > > Esteban A. Maringolo wrote >> El ene 15, 2015 8:55 AM, "Sebastian Sastre" < > >> sebastian@ > >> > >> escribiÃ³: >>> >>> >>>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo < > >> emaringolo@ > >> > >> wrote: >>>> >>>> Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can also >> get you bitten. :) >>> >>> >>> And whatâs the news on that? >>> >>> The world is full of people paralysed by fear. >>> >>> Scared people is not worth following (they are not going to invent any >> interesting future). >>> >>> The ones who dear to do different are way more interesting. >>> >> >> I totally agree with you. But the mentioned project was a viable option >> two >> years ago, when it was trying to get developer traction and the "runs on >> JVM" was a hyped feature (not to mention the bad experience almost >> everyone >> had with such things). >> >> Amber is, IMO, way more valuable and with a greater feature than Redline. >> And I never used any of them. >> >> I wouldn't do a PR campaign mentioning VW's Pollock UI, Pharo's Spec or >> any >> other abandoned project whatsoever. >> >> A different thing is a project of which you can expect to move at a slow >> pace, but uninterruptedly. >> >> Regards, > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Re-Pharo-dev-InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799686… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by horrido

I agree that Amber is important, given that client-side web development is the /fad du jour/. But having a Smalltalk on the JVM is also important if we want to penetrate the enterprise. JVM is the closest thing we have to a "standard" enterprise platform. Languages such as Scala and Groovy have had some measure of success on the JVM. I'd be happy if Smalltalk could achieve even this level of popularity! Generalissimo Esteban A. Maringolo wrote > El ene 15, 2015 8:55 AM, "Sebastian Sastre" < > sebastian@ > > > escribiÃ³: >> >> >>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo < > emaringolo@ > > > wrote: >>> >>> Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can also > get you bitten. :) >> >> >> And whatâs the news on that? >> >> The world is full of people paralysed by fear. >> >> Scared people is not worth following (they are not going to invent any > interesting future). >> >> The ones who dear to do different are way more interesting. >> > > I totally agree with you. But the mentioned project was a viable option > two > years ago, when it was trying to get developer traction and the "runs on > JVM" was a hyped feature (not to mention the bad experience almost > everyone > had with such things). > > Amber is, IMO, way more valuable and with a greater feature than Redline. > And I never used any of them. > > I wouldn't do a PR campaign mentioning VW's Pollock UI, Pharo's Spec or > any > other abandoned project whatsoever. > > A different thing is a project of which you can expect to move at a slow > pace, but uninterruptedly. > > Regards, -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Re-Pharo-dev-InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799686… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 17, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

by horrido

I had never heard of RTalk or Gravel. In all my Googling, I've never come across these two. They're obviously not on the minds of very many people. Are they even active projects? At least Redline is relatively prominent. At least James Ladd is actively working on it. His efforts should be commended and *supported*. Let's rally around the Redline project. This should be doable. Generalissimo Stephan Eggermont wrote > continued from pharo-dev, please keep discussion here. > > The smalltalk on jvm situation is exactly like it shouldn't be. > There are three implementations, not working together: > - RTalk > - Gravel > - Redline > > The first two are driven by existing commercial smalltalk users > coming from a platform that they feel is not sufficiently > developing (different ones). This amount of fragmentation is ridiculous. > Of course they have different priorities and needs, but it should be > possible to share the work that all three feel they have to do. > The result is that at least two of them move forward very slowly. > > Stephan -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799678p4800173.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Jan. 17, 2015