- Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Stephan Eggermont

On 13-12-15 15:13, horrido wrote: > That's an *enormous* amount of work!!! No wonder it hasn't been done yet. Indeed.On the other hand, it doesn't need to be perfect. It is much better done in short iterations. The understanding comes from going through this process often and with many different people. Just try it with current java developers and try to identify a segment that would be interested in smalltalk, and see what story we should tell to get some people in that segment to try it out. > I did identify one thing: get high school students (i.e., young people) > interested in Smalltalk. That's why I tried (and failed) to launch the > Canadian Smalltalk Competition. You should understand that I put a LOT of > work into this, *a great deal of sweat and tears*. You have no idea. (Just > ask David Buck of Simberon.) The hope when improving situational awareness is to provide you with marketing opportunities that take less work (each). The amount of time and money that can be quickly spend on marketing is enormous. We are playing the long game, it is essential that you create enough small successes for yourself to stay motivated. Stephan

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Martin BÃ¤hr

Excerpts from Dimitris Chloupis's message of 2015-12-13 19:37:30 +0100: > Thank you very much , I will study them one by one :) thank you from me too. i won't be able to work on this soon (need to get the desktop app ready first, which won't happen before the next GSoC, (but it might happen as part of it)) but i appreciate this information being available. greetings, martin. -- eKita - the online platform for your entire academic life -- chief engineer eKita.co pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se caudium.net societyserver.org secretary beijinglug.org mentor fossasia.org foresight developer foresightlinux.org realss.com unix sysadmin Martin BÃ¤hr working in china http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Dimitris Chloupis

Thank you very much , I will study them one by one :) On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 5:31 PM Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> wrote: > For iPad, it is gone because I did not renew my developer license, so > Apple remove it from the store. Sorry sorry :( > > Concerning DrGeo on Android, I mostly forgot all the details to build it > as I did not update it since a couple of years (3 years). > Historically Dmitri Golubuvsky helped me a lot to build it [1]. But I > don't think he's working on it anymore. > Later Jannick Laval asked me how I did the DrGeo for android, he wanted > to try for Pratch, he wrote some notes you may find useful [2] > > You may want to check the former source repository containing Android > package for Dr. Geo, I just open its access for you [3] > You may need the event VM glue code[4], not sure this is the most recent > one. > I am just writing from memory, so I may forget some key points. > > > However, in the long term a lot will have change in Pharo on Android: > - What I did was before Athens, I don't think Athens is working now on > Android > - Bloc will very likely replace Morph, and it may be the think to use for > Android perspective. > > > Hilaire > > > > [1] https://code.google.com/p/squeakvm-tablet/w/list > [2] http://www.phratch.com/archives/408 > [3] https://gforge.inria.fr/scm/browser.php?group_id=1308 > [4] http://www.squeaksource.com/EventVM.html > > > > > > > > Le 13/12/2015 16:24, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > > Yeah I am interesting to this too, I was not aware Dr. Geo was on > > Android thats great news. > > > > Hilaire why I cannot find Dr. Geo for my iPad mini ? Just got an iPad > > mini as my Christmas present to myself :) > > > > I would love to see a blog post by you how to get Pharo working on > > Android and iOS . Any pointers ? > > > > On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:35 PM Martin BÃ¤hr > > <mbaehr(a)email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at > > <mailto:mbaehr@email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at>> > > wrote: > > > > Excerpts from Hilaire's message of 2015-12-13 09:38:33 +0100: > > > Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years > > > > is there any description about the process involved in porting a > pharo > > application to android? > > what do i need, how do i start? > > > > i am tentatively working on a desktop application, that in the > > long term i > > would like to see on the mobile phone, and i'd appreciate any > > insights and > > starting points on how this is done. > > > > greetings, martin. > > > > -- > > eKita - the online platform for your entire > > academic life > > -- > > chief engineer > > eKita.co > > pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se > > <http://pike.lysator.liu.se> caudium.net <http://caudium.net> > > societyserver.org <http://societyserver.org> > > secretary > > beijinglug.org <http://beijinglug.org> > > mentor > > fossasia.org <http://fossasia.org> > > foresight developer foresightlinux.org > > <http://foresightlinux.org> realss.com > > <http://realss.com> > > unix sysadmin > > Martin BÃ¤hr working in china > > http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/ > > > > > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu > http://google.com/+DrgeoEu > > > >

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by horrido

"Fast growth has its problems." I don't think we need to worry about that. Even if we're successful with a marketing campaign, it will take time to aggregate substantial numbers of new Smalltalkers. It may take years to reach the top 20 on Redmond. (We should be so lucky to have this problem.) Building an ecosystem is not about funding. Developers (and businesses) write new and useful libraries out of need *when they choose to use your programming language*. Ask yourself this: Smalltalk, in its various flavours, has been used commercially for more than three decades. After all this time, why are there still useful libraries missing, libraries that you find in the Java and Python worlds? Can you honestly tell me that over the next 5-10 years, we'll see the gaps in our library ecosystem filled in? I wouldn't bet my lunch money... Ben Coman wrote >> This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The >> tool >> is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while >> they're welcome to join, *will not be missed if they go elsewhere*. > >> This mentality says that the *size* of the Pharo community is not >> especially >> important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as >> *you're* having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality >> is >> that **a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community >> that >> grows large enough to support it**. > > But fast growth also has its problems... > https://www.groovehq.com/blog/scaling > > Particularly see point 1) "Scaling Shifts Your Teamâs Focus" > I believe Pharo is still in a stage where it needs a lot of agility. > IF there was suddenly a large influx of newbies, then EITHER: > * the experts spend *all* their time answering newbie questions and > not moving the platform forward (with a wider pool of disruptive > opinions) > OR... > * the newbies are ignored, get a bad experience, leave, and then "tell > everyone else about it". > > Currently early adopters of Pharo get the benefit of great support > from a direct line with the experts, which enhances their good > experience which they can report to others. However it takes time to > grow a community to have a range of middle experience levels to buffer > the experts so they can continue to do *real* work to drive the > platform forward. No matter how much you do on marketing, you can't > get away from the reality that sustainable *community* growth takes > time. > >> In other words, until the user community reaches **critical mass**, a >> strong >> library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the >> breadth >> of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited. > > But you don't reach critical mass until the library ecosystem is > sufficient for the masses. Its catch-22. This "bring them and they > will build it" has similar trouble as you concern against "build it > and the will come". > > But if you can serve some limited domains very well, maybe you get > enough funds to provide time to build a broader library ecosystem. > http://www.inc.com/karl-and-bill/build-your-business-one-customer-at-a-time… > > cheers -ben -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866835.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Ben Coman

> kilon.alios wrote >> I think that is why its difficult to bring pharo to diffirent platforms, >> the mentality of pharo and mentality of smalltalk is so specific that does >> not fit easily into other platforms. On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 5:45 AM, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. > > This mentality says that "if you build it, they will come." Yes they are coming... http://consortium.pharo.org/ > Keep improving the platform and eventually people will find it. > **Or not.** You don't really care. (As an aside, **how** will they find it???) > This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The tool > is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while > they're welcome to join, *will not be missed if they go elsewhere*. > This mentality says that the *size* of the Pharo community is not especially > important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as > *you're* having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality is > that **a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community that > grows large enough to support it**. But fast growth also has its problems... https://www.groovehq.com/blog/scaling Particularly see point 1) "Scaling Shifts Your Teamâs Focus" I believe Pharo is still in a stage where it needs a lot of agility. IF there was suddenly a large influx of newbies, then EITHER: * the experts spend *all* their time answering newbie questions and not moving the platform forward (with a wider pool of disruptive opinions) OR... * the newbies are ignored, get a bad experience, leave, and then "tell everyone else about it". Currently early adopters of Pharo get the benefit of great support from a direct line with the experts, which enhances their good experience which they can report to others. However it takes time to grow a community to have a range of middle experience levels to buffer the experts so they can continue to do *real* work to drive the platform forward. No matter how much you do on marketing, you can't get away from the reality that sustainable *community* growth takes time. > In other words, until the user community reaches **critical mass**, a strong > library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the breadth > of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited. But you don't reach critical mass until the library ecosystem is sufficient for the masses. Its catch-22. This "bring them and they will build it" has similar trouble as you concern against "build it and the will come". But if you can serve some limited domains very well, maybe you get enough funds to provide time to build a broader library ecosystem. http://www.inc.com/karl-and-bill/build-your-business-one-customer-at-a-time… cheers -ben

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by horrido

Python was in the doldrums for the first 13 years of its life. Then, it exploded onto the scene in 2004 (according to TIOBE). Was this because of continuing improvements to CPython during those 13 years? Really? JavaScript has been around since 1995, but what made it the darling of the web in the past 5 years? Hard work? What hard work? (Serendipitously, Google launched AngularJS in 2009. Maybe this was the impetus?) What about Ruby? Twenty years old, it only exploded onto the scene in 2006. What did Rubyists do in the first 11 years to cause this jump in popularity? If it all came down to hard work, then why didn't Haskell and Erlang and D rise to the top? Are those communities made of laggards and deadbeats? Of course, we should work hard to improve the platform. However, that by itself is no guarantee people will adopt it. Python's success was *serendipitous*, to be sure. To suggest that it was inevitable because of all the work done to improve CPython is not clear. kilon.alios wrote > bingo !!! > +1.000.000.000 > > The problem is that there is so much hype about marketing thats easy to > miss the enormous fact that languages like C, C++, Java and Python are not > as popular as they are even with their big flaws without substance , > without solving some serious problem that requires serious resources . > Foremosts those languages have been evolving for decades , take Python > > and I am NOT talking the language itself I am talking the most popular > python implementation and the oldest , CPython, its 24 years. > > Let me repeat this... > > CPython IS 24 years OLD !!!! > > There is none smalltalk implementation that I am aware of that has been > actively developed for so long even though smalltalk as a language is far > older than that. > > Now imagine where Pharo will be in 24 years.... wow.... it blows my mind > just trying to imagine. > > And by the way Python had ZERO marketing , ZERO!!!! Zero funds, zero .... > no money.... nada..... nothing > > Just one dude working his ass off to make a great language for scripting C > projects. > > So in the end its all hard work, as it should be . > > So back to work improving Pharo :) > > On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 12:17 PM stepharo < > stepharo@ > > wrote: > >> why don't you spend the time to write such mails into >> - writing tutorial or >> - just improving class comments of the well-known classs (such as >> set, dictionary, booleans, strings), >> - create videos >> you would have already an impact. >> Now you are shouting in the desert and people will just put you on their >> black list. >> >> Stef >> >> >> -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866826.html Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Hilaire

For iPad, it is gone because I did not renew my developer license, so Apple remove it from the store. Sorry sorry :( Concerning DrGeo on Android, I mostly forgot all the details to build it as I did not update it since a couple of years (3 years). Historically Dmitri Golubuvsky helped me a lot to build it [1]. But I don't think he's working on it anymore. Later Jannick Laval asked me how I did the DrGeo for android, he wanted to try for Pratch, he wrote some notes you may find useful [2] You may want to check the former source repository containing Android package for Dr. Geo, I just open its access for you [3] You may need the event VM glue code[4], not sure this is the most recent one. I am just writing from memory, so I may forget some key points. However, in the long term a lot will have change in Pharo on Android: - What I did was before Athens, I don't think Athens is working now on Android - Bloc will very likely replace Morph, and it may be the think to use for Android perspective. Hilaire [1] https://code.google.com/p/squeakvm-tablet/w/list [2] http://www.phratch.com/archives/408 [3] https://gforge.inria.fr/scm/browser.php?group_id=1308 [4] http://www.squeaksource.com/EventVM.html Le 13/12/2015 16:24, Dimitris Chloupis a Ã©crit : > Yeah I am interesting to this too, I was not aware Dr. Geo was on > Android thats great news. > > Hilaire why I cannot find Dr. Geo for my iPad mini ? Just got an iPad > mini as my Christmas present to myself :) > > I would love to see a blog post by you how to get Pharo working on > Android and iOS . Any pointers ? > > On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:35 PM Martin BÃ¤hr > <mbaehr(a)email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at > <mailto:mbaehr@email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at>> > wrote: > > Excerpts from Hilaire's message of 2015-12-13 09:38:33 +0100: > > Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years > > is there any description about the process involved in porting a pharo > application to android? > what do i need, how do i start? > > i am tentatively working on a desktop application, that in the > long term i > would like to see on the mobile phone, and i'd appreciate any > insights and > starting points on how this is done. > > greetings, martin. > > -- > eKita - the online platform for your entire > academic life > -- > chief engineer > eKita.co > pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se > <http://pike.lysator.liu.se> caudium.net <http://caudium.net> > societyserver.org <http://societyserver.org> > secretary > beijinglug.org <http://beijinglug.org> > mentor > fossasia.org <http://fossasia.org> > foresight developer foresightlinux.org > <http://foresightlinux.org> realss.com > <http://realss.com> > unix sysadmin > Martin BÃ¤hr working in china > http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/ > -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Dimitris Chloupis

Yeah I am interesting to this too, I was not aware Dr. Geo was on Android thats great news. Hilaire why I cannot find Dr. Geo for my iPad mini ? Just got an iPad mini as my Christmas present to myself :) I would love to see a blog post by you how to get Pharo working on Android and iOS . Any pointers ? On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:35 PM Martin BÃ¤hr < mbaehr(a)email.archlab.tuwien.ac.at> wrote: > Excerpts from Hilaire's message of 2015-12-13 09:38:33 +0100: > > Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years > > is there any description about the process involved in porting a pharo > application to android? > what do i need, how do i start? > > i am tentatively working on a desktop application, that in the long term i > would like to see on the mobile phone, and i'd appreciate any insights and > starting points on how this is done. > > greetings, martin. > > -- > eKita - the online platform for your entire academic > life > -- > chief engineer > eKita.co > pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se caudium.net > societyserver.org > secretary > beijinglug.org > mentor > fossasia.org > foresight developer foresightlinux.org > realss.com > unix sysadmin > Martin BÃ¤hr working in china > http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/ > >

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM

by Hilaire

Le 13/12/2015 15:13, horrido a Ã©crit : > I did identify one thing: get high school students (i.e., young people) > interested in Smalltalk. That's why I tried (and failed) to launch the > Canadian Smalltalk Competition. You should understand that I put a LOT of Did you check out what can be done for/with high school students with Dr. Geo, the Pharo interactive geometry application? Please take a look to the link below, in the second part of the document you have demos about interactive programming with Smalltalk to build mathematics models suited to senior high students http://forum.drgeo.eu/What-s-new-in-Dr-Geo-recently-tp4024786.html Many more fun models are easily do-able, but I am short in time there this recent months. Thanks Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu

Dec. 13, 2015

Re: [Pharo-users] Magritte Tutorial [Draft]

by Alejandro Infante

The tutorial is awesome! Thank you guys! Alejandro > On Dec 13, 2015, at 7:18 AM, stepharo <stepharo(a)free.fr> wrote: > > Hi guys > > Here is the ci of the magritte tutorial that I'm revising and collecting material for > > https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-contribution/view/Books/job/Magritte/lastSuccessf… > > If you want to add a chapter let me know. > I will add the ticketCorner and/or conference registration one in the future. > > Stef >

Dec. 13, 2015