- Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

Yes, me too. OSProcess/SubProcess should be included in the default image. 2016-10-28 10:29 GMT-03:00 Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu>: > For what it is worth, I am with Dimitris on this: sub shell execution is > so fundamental that it should be a standard part of the image. I always > thought that that was the goal of the new OSSubProcess. > > > On 28 Oct 2016, at 15:25, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > For those not experienced with other language let me offer here an > explanation why having something like OSProcess is vastly important. > > > > Coding even before the time of Smalltalk has been tied to the command > line, even in this day all languages come with the ability of the command > line to use them and them to use the command line. > > > > Since increasing the size of our community is paramount to the > acceleration of the growth and evolution of pharo , it is also paramount to > smooth out the learning curve of Smalltalk. In order to do that we must > offer a familiar environment to these coders , especially in the case where > Pharo offers no real alternative. > > > > Arguing that just because Smalltalk offers a different way of doing > things ok to ignore what others are been doing, is an excuse destined to > collapse on itself when Smalltalk for decades and still even Pharo fails to > offer , not only good alternatives but even bad ones , in case of command > line. > > > > Which means that currently Pharo offers no real alternative for > functionality that is offered via the command line, that means: > > 1) No library to deal with Git directly , Gitfiletree does this through > the command line > > 2) No command line alternative for interaction with a vast array of > software like VLC, ImageMagick, video converters, audio converters , > programming languages etc etc > > 3) Even when we take a look at pharo ecosystem the command like reigns > supreme, for example a trip to the pharo website success stories make its > clear that by far the most popular platform for commercial pharo apps is > the web . Guess what tool the web developers use the most ? Yeap the > command line. We make the life of those people that want to use pharo > professionally really really hard. > > > > Programming and coding is about covering a vast array of scenarios and > maybe in a small community of a few hundred like pharo maybe its ok to > ignore the command line but I can assure you in a community like Python > that is more than 2 million , it is not. > > > > We already got command line integration for pharo outside the image , > lets make the logical next step and offer also command line support from > inside the image as well. Let's not justify the stereotype that "Smalltalk > is a distant lone island, just because" or that is outdated. > > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 3:25 PM Thierry Goubier < > thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > 2016-10-28 14:12 GMT+02:00 Guille Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com>: > > But the functionality is there, it's just that it is not loaded by > default. > > > > Loading it by default implies wedding Pharo's life cycle with > OS(Sub)Process' one, and having to maintain the possibility of dependencies > to OS(Sub)Process spreading in the entire environment. > > > > Like many of the other projects loaded by default in a Pharo image. What > is wrong with OSSubprocess or OSProcess so that they can't be treated the > same? > > > > > > What is wrong in executing a simple Metacello command to load it? > > > > The fact the image doesn't come as a one download / ready to use for an > average user? > > > > Thierry > > > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > >> I have a love and hate relationship with Pharo > >> this one I will put in the hate category > >> > >> You expect people to use pharo when you do not offer functionality they > come to expect from the language they already use and not even offer an > altervative, say a library with similar command line functionality (See > Scale). > >> > >> On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 2:59 PM Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> > wrote: > >> > >> > Am 28.10.2016 um 13:17 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis < > kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > >> > > >> > I just noticed that OSProcess misses from Pharo 6 image, it was > supposed to be replaced by OSSubProcess but this not in the image either ? > What we suppose to use to execute bash from inside pharo ? > >> > >> It was never in the image. You need to install it in order to use it. > >> > >> Norbert > >> > >> > > > > >

Oct. 28, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] SubModules and SubTrees? ..... Was ----> OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Dale Henrichs

Guille that would be great ... I am in the process of writing the presentation but would make time to talk with you ... lets arrange to skype or discord sometime next week ... Dale On 10/28/16 7:53 AM, Guille Polito wrote: > I'm not going to smalltalks, but maybe we can do an skype (or a public > discord) any time soon? > > -------- Original Message -------- >> >> >> On 10/28/16 6:05 AM, Guille Polito wrote: >>> >>> >>> Also, we are starting to see how to move Pharo sources to git, and >>> this means we are looking at how we should design Pharo's repository >>> so we can smoothly collaborate and synchronize repositories using >>> pull requests. For example, these two last week I took some hours to >>> evaluate and exercise myself with git subtrees and submodules. The >>> notes I made from this are here: >>> >>> https://github.com/guillep/PharoIntegrationProcess/wiki/Analysis-of-sub-pro… >>> >>> >>> What I mean, adding a package inside the image can bring also a lot >>> of problems to package maintainers, so doing it just because "others >>> do it" is not a good argument. >> Guille, >> >> I looked at trying to use submodules with a project or two back when >> I first started working with git and github[1] -- 5 years ago now. >> >> It seems that using submodules introduces a very tight coupling >> between the individual projects and it was more of a pain than it was >> worth ... >> >> Using Metacello locks and independent clones has worked very well, >> but some structure is needed ... >> >> I spent several years "splashing around" trying to figure out a >> structure for GsDevKit/GLASS and finally settled on the structure in >> GsDevKit_home[2] (about 2 years ago) and the structure there is >> working quite well ... >> >> I am giving a talk at the upcoming Smalltalks where I will be >> describing my thoughts on this structure/organization in detail. >> >> I am certainly willing to share my experience with you guys and maybe >> save you a couple of years of "splashing around" --- if you are >> interested. >> >> Dale >> >> [1] https://github.com/dalehenrich/amber-skeleton >> [2] https://github.com/GsDevKit/GsDevKit_home >> >> >

Oct. 28, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] SubModules and SubTrees? ..... Was ----> OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Guille Polito

I'm not going to smalltalks, but maybe we can do an skype (or a public discord) any time soon? -------- Original Message -------- > > > On 10/28/16 6:05 AM, Guille Polito wrote: >> >> >> Also, we are starting to see how to move Pharo sources to git, and >> this means we are looking at how we should design Pharo's repository >> so we can smoothly collaborate and synchronize repositories using >> pull requests. For example, these two last week I took some hours to >> evaluate and exercise myself with git subtrees and submodules. The >> notes I made from this are here: >> >> https://github.com/guillep/PharoIntegrationProcess/wiki/Analysis-of-sub-pro… >> >> >> What I mean, adding a package inside the image can bring also a lot >> of problems to package maintainers, so doing it just because "others >> do it" is not a good argument. > Guille, > > I looked at trying to use submodules with a project or two back when I > first started working with git and github[1] -- 5 years ago now. > > It seems that using submodules introduces a very tight coupling > between the individual projects and it was more of a pain than it was > worth ... > > Using Metacello locks and independent clones has worked very well, but > some structure is needed ... > > I spent several years "splashing around" trying to figure out a > structure for GsDevKit/GLASS and finally settled on the structure in > GsDevKit_home[2] (about 2 years ago) and the structure there is > working quite well ... > > I am giving a talk at the upcoming Smalltalks where I will be > describing my thoughts on this structure/organization in detail. > > I am certainly willing to share my experience with you guys and maybe > save you a couple of years of "splashing around" --- if you are > interested. > > Dale > > [1] https://github.com/dalehenrich/amber-skeleton > [2] https://github.com/GsDevKit/GsDevKit_home > >

Oct. 28, 2016

SubModules and SubTrees? ..... Was ----> OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Dale Henrichs

On 10/28/16 6:05 AM, Guille Polito wrote: > > > Also, we are starting to see how to move Pharo sources to git, and > this means we are looking at how we should design Pharo's repository > so we can smoothly collaborate and synchronize repositories using pull > requests. For example, these two last week I took some hours to > evaluate and exercise myself with git subtrees and submodules. The > notes I made from this are here: > > https://github.com/guillep/PharoIntegrationProcess/wiki/Analysis-of-sub-pro… > > What I mean, adding a package inside the image can bring also a lot of > problems to package maintainers, so doing it just because "others do > it" is not a good argument. Guille, I looked at trying to use submodules with a project or two back when I first started working with git and github[1] -- 5 years ago now. It seems that using submodules introduces a very tight coupling between the individual projects and it was more of a pain than it was worth ... Using Metacello locks and independent clones has worked very well, but some structure is needed ... I spent several years "splashing around" trying to figure out a structure for GsDevKit/GLASS and finally settled on the structure in GsDevKit_home[2] (about 2 years ago) and the structure there is working quite well ... I am giving a talk at the upcoming Smalltalks where I will be describing my thoughts on this structure/organization in detail. I am certainly willing to share my experience with you guys and maybe save you a couple of years of "splashing around" --- if you are interested. Dale [1] https://github.com/dalehenrich/amber-skeleton [2] https://github.com/GsDevKit/GsDevKit_home

Oct. 28, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

For what it is worth, I am with Dimitris on this: sub shell execution is so fundamental that it should be a standard part of the image. I always thought that that was the goal of the new OSSubProcess. > On 28 Oct 2016, at 15:25, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > For those not experienced with other language let me offer here an explanation why having something like OSProcess is vastly important. > > Coding even before the time of Smalltalk has been tied to the command line, even in this day all languages come with the ability of the command line to use them and them to use the command line. > > Since increasing the size of our community is paramount to the acceleration of the growth and evolution of pharo , it is also paramount to smooth out the learning curve of Smalltalk. In order to do that we must offer a familiar environment to these coders , especially in the case where Pharo offers no real alternative. > > Arguing that just because Smalltalk offers a different way of doing things ok to ignore what others are been doing, is an excuse destined to collapse on itself when Smalltalk for decades and still even Pharo fails to offer , not only good alternatives but even bad ones , in case of command line. > > Which means that currently Pharo offers no real alternative for functionality that is offered via the command line, that means: > 1) No library to deal with Git directly , Gitfiletree does this through the command line > 2) No command line alternative for interaction with a vast array of software like VLC, ImageMagick, video converters, audio converters , programming languages etc etc > 3) Even when we take a look at pharo ecosystem the command like reigns supreme, for example a trip to the pharo website success stories make its clear that by far the most popular platform for commercial pharo apps is the web . Guess what tool the web developers use the most ? Yeap the command line. We make the life of those people that want to use pharo professionally really really hard. > > Programming and coding is about covering a vast array of scenarios and maybe in a small community of a few hundred like pharo maybe its ok to ignore the command line but I can assure you in a community like Python that is more than 2 million , it is not. > > We already got command line integration for pharo outside the image , lets make the logical next step and offer also command line support from inside the image as well. Let's not justify the stereotype that "Smalltalk is a distant lone island, just because" or that is outdated. > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 3:25 PM Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2016-10-28 14:12 GMT+02:00 Guille Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com>: > But the functionality is there, it's just that it is not loaded by default. > > Loading it by default implies wedding Pharo's life cycle with OS(Sub)Process' one, and having to maintain the possibility of dependencies to OS(Sub)Process spreading in the entire environment. > > Like many of the other projects loaded by default in a Pharo image. What is wrong with OSSubprocess or OSProcess so that they can't be treated the same? > > > What is wrong in executing a simple Metacello command to load it? > > The fact the image doesn't come as a one download / ready to use for an average user? > > Thierry > > > > -------- Original Message -------- >> I have a love and hate relationship with Pharo >> this one I will put in the hate category >> >> You expect people to use pharo when you do not offer functionality they come to expect from the language they already use and not even offer an altervative, say a library with similar command line functionality (See Scale). >> >> On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 2:59 PM Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: >> >> > Am 28.10.2016 um 13:17 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: >> > >> > I just noticed that OSProcess misses from Pharo 6 image, it was supposed to be replaced by OSSubProcess but this not in the image either ? What we suppose to use to execute bash from inside pharo ? >> >> It was never in the image. You need to install it in order to use it. >> >> Norbert >> >> >

Oct. 28, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Dimitris Chloupis

For those not experienced with other language let me offer here an explanation why having something like OSProcess is vastly important. Coding even before the time of Smalltalk has been tied to the command line, even in this day all languages come with the ability of the command line to use them and them to use the command line. Since increasing the size of our community is paramount to the acceleration of the growth and evolution of pharo , it is also paramount to smooth out the learning curve of Smalltalk. In order to do that we must offer a familiar environment to these coders , especially in the case where Pharo offers no real alternative. Arguing that just because Smalltalk offers a different way of doing things ok to ignore what others are been doing, is an excuse destined to collapse on itself when Smalltalk for decades and still even Pharo fails to offer , not only good alternatives but even bad ones , in case of command line. Which means that currently Pharo offers no real alternative for functionality that is offered via the command line, that means: 1) No library to deal with Git directly , Gitfiletree does this through the command line 2) No command line alternative for interaction with a vast array of software like VLC, ImageMagick, video converters, audio converters , programming languages etc etc 3) Even when we take a look at pharo ecosystem the command like reigns supreme, for example a trip to the pharo website success stories make its clear that by far the most popular platform for commercial pharo apps is the web . Guess what tool the web developers use the most ? Yeap the command line. We make the life of those people that want to use pharo professionally really really hard. Programming and coding is about covering a vast array of scenarios and maybe in a small community of a few hundred like pharo maybe its ok to ignore the command line but I can assure you in a community like Python that is more than 2 million , it is not. We already got command line integration for pharo outside the image , lets make the logical next step and offer also command line support from inside the image as well. Let's not justify the stereotype that "Smalltalk is a distant lone island, just because" or that is outdated. On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 3:25 PM Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2016-10-28 14:12 GMT+02:00 Guille Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com>: > > But the functionality is there, it's just that it is not loaded by default. > > Loading it by default implies wedding Pharo's life cycle with > OS(Sub)Process' one, and having to maintain the possibility of dependencies > to OS(Sub)Process spreading in the entire environment. > > > Like many of the other projects loaded by default in a Pharo image. What > is wrong with OSSubprocess or OSProcess so that they can't be treated the > same? > > > > What is wrong in executing a simple Metacello command to load it? > > > The fact the image doesn't come as a one download / ready to use for an > average user? > > Thierry > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > I have a love and hate relationship with Pharo > this one I will put in the hate category > > You expect people to use pharo when you do not offer functionality they > come to expect from the language they already use and not even offer an > altervative, say a library with similar command line functionality (See > Scale). > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 2:59 PM Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > > > Am 28.10.2016 um 13:17 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com > >: > > > > I just noticed that OSProcess misses from Pharo 6 image, it was supposed > to be replaced by OSSubProcess but this not in the image either ? What we > suppose to use to execute bash from inside pharo ? > > It was never in the image. You need to install it in order to use it. > > Norbert > > > >

Oct. 28, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Guille Polito

-------- Original Message -------- > > > 2016-10-28 14:12 GMT+02:00 Guille Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com > <mailto:guillermopolito@gmail.com>>: > > > > > > > But the functionality is there, it's just that it is not loaded by > default. > > > > Loading it by default implies wedding Pharo's life cycle with > OS(Sub)Process' one, and having to maintain the possibility of > dependencies to OS(Sub)Process spreading in the entire environment. > > > Like many of the other projects loaded by default in a Pharo image. > What is wrong with OSSubprocess or OSProcess so that they can't be > treated the same? The fact that it is done for some projects it does not mean it is good. Moreover, it does not mean either that we can manage it well :). - Just ask Stef the headaches he has every time he has to do a change that crosses many packages and some of them are developed outside the image (do we commit everything to the inbox, or do we commit outside, wait for integration, integrate a configuration, wait until everything is right, not break cyclic dependencies? and so on...). - Or just see what happened with the metacello configurations of the refactoring browser, opal, and so on. Also, we are starting to see how to move Pharo sources to git, and this means we are looking at how we should design Pharo's repository so we can smoothly collaborate and synchronize repositories using pull requests. For example, these two last week I took some hours to evaluate and exercise myself with git subtrees and submodules. The notes I made from this are here: https://github.com/guillep/PharoIntegrationProcess/wiki/Analysis-of-sub-pro… What I mean, adding a package inside the image can bring also a lot of problems to package maintainers, so doing it just because "others do it" is not a good argument. > > > > What is wrong in executing a simple Metacello command to load it? > > > The fact the image doesn't come as a one download / ready to use for > an average user? What is an average user? If you mean beginners, I can think of myself using a new language: when I do not know how to do something in some new language, I google for documentation or already done solutions (stack overflow :P). Then I follow instructions if they are not too complicated. And installing a library is inside my box for "not too complicated". I do and did it all the time with maven, sbt, apt-get, npm, and it is for sure not simpler than metacello most of the cases... If you mean pharo users like you and me, I think then that using Metacello should be a standard practice to manage projects and dependencies. Now, a nice step in the middle of both worlds would be making sure that OS(Sub)process is in the catalog. > > Thierry > > > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > >> >> I have a love and hate relationship with Pharo >> this one I will put in the hate category >> >> >> >> >> You expect people to use pharo when you do not offer >> functionality they come to expect from the language they >> already use and not even offer an altervative, say a library >> with similar command line functionality (See Scale). >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 2:59 PM Norbert Hartl >> <norbert(a)hartl.name <mailto:norbert@hartl.name>> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > Am 28.10.2016 um 13:17 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis >> <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>>: >> >> > >> >> > I just noticed that OSProcess misses from Pharo 6 image, >> it was supposed to be replaced by OSSubProcess but this not in >> the image either ? What we suppose to use to execute bash from >> inside pharo ? >> >> >> >> It was never in the image. You need to install it in order to >> use it. >> >> >> >> Norbert >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > >

Oct. 28, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Thierry Goubier

2016-10-28 14:12 GMT+02:00 Guille Polito <guillermopolito(a)gmail.com>: > But the functionality is there, it's just that it is not loaded by default. > > Loading it by default implies wedding Pharo's life cycle with > OS(Sub)Process' one, and having to maintain the possibility of dependencies > to OS(Sub)Process spreading in the entire environment. > Like many of the other projects loaded by default in a Pharo image. What is wrong with OSSubprocess or OSProcess so that they can't be treated the same? > > What is wrong in executing a simple Metacello command to load it? > The fact the image doesn't come as a one download / ready to use for an average user? Thierry > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > I have a love and hate relationship with Pharo > this one I will put in the hate category > > You expect people to use pharo when you do not offer functionality they > come to expect from the language they already use and not even offer an > altervative, say a library with similar command line functionality (See > Scale). > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 2:59 PM Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > >> >> > Am 28.10.2016 um 13:17 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com >> >: >> > >> > I just noticed that OSProcess misses from Pharo 6 image, it was >> supposed to be replaced by OSSubProcess but this not in the image either ? >> What we suppose to use to execute bash from inside pharo ? >> >> It was never in the image. You need to install it in order to use it. >> >> Norbert >> >> >> >

Oct. 28, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Guille Polito

But the functionality is there, it's just that it is not loaded by default. Loading it by default implies wedding Pharo's life cycle with OS(Sub)Process' one, and having to maintain the possibility of dependencies to OS(Sub)Process spreading in the entire environment. What is wrong in executing a simple Metacello command to load it? -------- Original Message -------- > I have a love and hate relationship with Pharo > this one I will put in the hate category > > You expect people to use pharo when you do not offer functionality > they come to expect from the language they already use and not even > offer an altervative, say a library with similar command line > functionality (See Scale). > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 2:59 PM Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name > <mailto:norbert@hartl.name>> wrote: > > > > Am 28.10.2016 um 13:17 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis > <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com <mailto:kilon.alios@gmail.com>>: > > > > I just noticed that OSProcess misses from Pharo 6 image, it was > supposed to be replaced by OSSubProcess but this not in the image > either ? What we suppose to use to execute bash from inside pharo ? > > It was never in the image. You need to install it in order to use it. > > Norbert > >

Oct. 28, 2016

Re: [Pharo-users] OSProcess missing from Pharo 6 image

by Dimitris Chloupis

I have a love and hate relationship with Pharo this one I will put in the hate category You expect people to use pharo when you do not offer functionality they come to expect from the language they already use and not even offer an altervative, say a library with similar command line functionality (See Scale). On Fri, Oct 28, 2016 at 2:59 PM Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > > Am 28.10.2016 um 13:17 schrieb Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com > >: > > > > I just noticed that OSProcess misses from Pharo 6 image, it was supposed > to be replaced by OSSubProcess but this not in the image either ? What we > suppose to use to execute bash from inside pharo ? > > It was never in the image. You need to install it in order to use it. > > Norbert > > >

Oct. 28, 2016