- Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 6, scrolling with 2 fingers on a Mac trackpad is very erratic

by Stephane Ducasse

We should rewrite all the logic using SDL. We should really integrate it better in this iteration. stef On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 7:00 PM, Nicolai Hess <nicolaihess(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > 2017-07-23 17:41 GMT+02:00 Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works>: >> >> Hi - Iâm wondering if anyone else has noticed that in Pharo 6, when you >> scroll on a MacBook trackpad with 2 fingers, that strange things happen, >> particularly if you do it quickly. >> >> For example, in a system browser if you expand the configurations tree and >> scroll through it, it very often just suddenly closes that tree and just >> selects the âLast Modified Methodsâ and âConfigurationsâ list items. OR it >> will keep jumping to the top of the list and start scrolling down again. I >> see this latter behaviour when scrolling through methods of a class as well. >> >> I havenât noticed it in other applications, and its possible its my laptop >> or maybe settings I have on it - but Iâm curious if others have seen the >> same behaviour? >> >> I will go back and check a Pharo 3 or 5 image and see if its the same back >> there. >> >> Tim > > > there is (or was ? ) an issue on fogbugz about this. >

July 23, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Why do we separate class/instance methods in the browser?

by Stephane Ducasse

I agree with you and as a teacher I'm picky on this point :). Stef On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 6:43 PM, Alistair Grant <akgrant0710(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Tim, > > On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 04:04:33PM +0100, Tim Mackinnon wrote: >> I think my thread is misunderstood - I???m not saying change how >> methods work, class methods are fine, instance methods are fine - >> I???m just saying I don???t think its ideal anymore to see them so >> separately in our UI. It was really driven home watching great >> programmers struggle (sure Smalltalk is a bit different - and there >> are many elegant things we have, but class methods are pretty normal >> in many languages) - and I have a similar frustration in that I find >> it a straight jacket that we have to click that class button just >> because we want to write what is effectively a constructor that occurs >> to us when we are writing an instance method. Its very jarring and >> breaks your flow to ???switch mode??? to type one in. > > From a purely subjective perspective, having programmed in an > environment where instance and class methods were mixed together > (Python), my opinion is that it makes things more difficult to > understand. > > I also think from a theoretical perspective that they should be kept > separate: > > Sending an instance method means sending a message to a different object > from sending a class method, so they should be kept separate. > > While I agree that visually Nautilus could do a much better job of > distinguishing between instance and class methods, it isn't an argument > in favour of mixing them in a single list. > > > Cheers, > Alistair > > >> I think Pharo is an environment to experiment with how we think about >> programming (in Smalltalk as well as other languages) - GTInspector is >> marvellous, that is something that really shows how thinking about the >> problem differently can make such a difference. While, I think our >> standard code browsers are ok - they are stuck in a rut that we need >> to break. Calypso is a hint at what is possible, but I want >> GTinspector type thinking more prevalent??? with similar types of >> ideas that inspire us to code better. >> >> Anyway, it seems like I need to take this away and try some >> experiments by myself. >> >> Tim >

July 23, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Why do we separate class/instance methods in the browser?

by Thierry Goubier

Le 23/07/2017 Ã 18:58, Attila Magyar a Ã©crit : > Maybe if the protocol list was a tree instead of a list then it would make > sense to include the class methods there. This would also make easier to > move methods from class side to instance side or vica versa with simple drag > and drop (without relying on the refactor/move to class side option). The AltBrowser has been providing that tree view for a few years. That view is very convenient when you want to see class methods names while writing an instance method (and the reverse). Never thought of that need for the drag and drop feature. Maybe I'll add it (or simply check how it currently behaves for that use case). Thierry > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Why-do-we-separate-class-instance-methods-in-the-brow… > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > >

July 23, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Why do we separate class/instance methods in the browser?

by Thierry Goubier

Hi Tim, if you're looking for experiments, you may want to look for the already existing (or past) experiments on alternative systems browsers. There are a few floating around, and some of them already have an answer for what you are considering (change the way class side and instance side methods are shown). Since you're interested in GTInspector as well, maybe adding GT extensions to a class could let you experiment on that. Regards, Thierry Le 23/07/2017 Ã 17:04, Tim Mackinnon a Ã©crit : > I think my thread is misunderstood - Iâm not saying change how methods work, class methods are fine, instance methods are fine - Iâm just saying I donât think its ideal anymore to see them so separately in our UI. It was really driven home watching great programmers struggle (sure Smalltalk is a bit different - and there are many elegant things we have, but class methods are pretty normal in many languages) - and I have a similar frustration in that I find it a straight jacket that we have to click that class button just because we want to write what is effectively a constructor that occurs to us when we are writing an instance method. Its very jarring and breaks your flow to âswitch modeâ to type one in. > > I think Pharo is an environment to experiment with how we think about programming (in Smalltalk as well as other languages) - GTInspector is marvellous, that is something that really shows how thinking about the problem differently can make such a difference. While, I think our standard code browsers are ok - they are stuck in a rut that we need to break. Calypso is a hint at what is possible, but I want GTinspector type thinking more prevalentâ¦ with similar types of ideas that inspire us to code better. > > Anyway, it seems like I need to take this away and try some experiments by myself. > > Tim > > >> On 23 Jul 2017, at 12:45, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi subbu >> >> I used the same metaphor :) >> >> Stef >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 4:37 PM, K K Subbu <kksubbu.ml(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> On Saturday 22 July 2017 06:51 PM, Tim Mackinnon wrote: >>> >>>> The one that stuck out for me (and is actually mentioned in another >>>> thread this week) was the class/instance method difference. They >>>> conceptually understood the difference coming from other languages >>>> but our UI is tricky to understand with the Class button toggle we >>>> have, and if you get methods on the wrong side, like with a test, >>>> it's quite confusing. >>> >>> >>> It is an easy mistake to make and I have often seen this confusion in >>> beginners. With the attention on the methods panel and text input, it is >>> easy to overlook the class toggle button :-(. >>> >>> An easy fix is to switch background color to differentiate between class and >>> instance methods in both code and input panels. A better way would be to use >>> tabs (like in Inspector). >>> >>> BTW, I use the metaphor of toys (objects), moulds (classes) and mould >>> factory (metaclass). A mould is an object from the perspective of the mould >>> maker. Therefore operations on classes are 'methods' from the maker's >>> perspective (note the recursion!). >>> >>>> Anyway - this got me thinking - why do we bother having a toggle in >>>> our UI for this these days? Of course we know there is a class and a >>>> metaclass but given that we have icons for methods now (and also have >>>> a Protocol pane ) why don't we just show all the methods we have in >>>> one list and let you filter them or even see them all? It seems much >>>> easier and way more efficient to rapidly code this way. >>> >>> >>> This perspective comes from the traditional way - code and compile. In >>> Pharo, we code one method at a time and sources are held in an external file >>> and a pointer stored in each method, so displaying all methods in one panel >>> would result in multiple file reads. >>> >>>> The only question then would be how to create methods of the right >>>> type - whether to have a button to create the right template (and put >>>> the browser code pane in the right context) or whether to indicate >>>> it by convention of the method name when creating it like + new: >>>> aSize etc. (Or even: class new: aSize etc). >>>> >>>> The more I think about it, the more it seems like something we should >>>> consider trying both for making ourselves more efficient (I'll bet >>>> everyone has written a method on the wrong side by mistake) and also >>>> helping newcomers. >>> >>> >>> Such mistakes are part of the learning curve and decrease with time. >>> >>> Regards .. Subbu >>> >> > > >

July 23, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 6, scrolling with 2 fingers on a Mac trackpad is very erratic

by Nicolai Hess

2017-07-23 17:41 GMT+02:00 Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works>: > Hi - Iâm wondering if anyone else has noticed that in Pharo 6, when you > scroll on a MacBook trackpad with 2 fingers, that strange things happen, > particularly if you do it quickly. > > For example, in a system browser if you expand the configurations tree and > scroll through it, it very often just suddenly closes that tree and just > selects the âLast Modified Methodsâ and âConfigurationsâ list items. OR it > will keep jumping to the top of the list and start scrolling down again. I > see this latter behaviour when scrolling through methods of a class as well. > > I havenât noticed it in other applications, and its possible its my laptop > or maybe settings I have on it - but Iâm curious if others have seen the > same behaviour? > > I will go back and check a Pharo 3 or 5 image and see if its the same back > there. > > Tim > there is (or was ? ) an issue on fogbugz about this.

July 23, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Why do we separate class/instance methods in the browser?

by Attila Magyar

Maybe if the protocol list was a tree instead of a list then it would make sense to include the class methods there. This would also make easier to move methods from class side to instance side or vica versa with simple drag and drop (without relying on the refactor/move to class side option). -- View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Why-do-we-separate-class-instance-methods-in-the-brow… Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

July 23, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Why do we separate class/instance methods in the browser?

by Alistair Grant

Hi Tim, On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 04:04:33PM +0100, Tim Mackinnon wrote: > I think my thread is misunderstood - I???m not saying change how > methods work, class methods are fine, instance methods are fine - > I???m just saying I don???t think its ideal anymore to see them so > separately in our UI. It was really driven home watching great > programmers struggle (sure Smalltalk is a bit different - and there > are many elegant things we have, but class methods are pretty normal > in many languages) - and I have a similar frustration in that I find > it a straight jacket that we have to click that class button just > because we want to write what is effectively a constructor that occurs > to us when we are writing an instance method. Its very jarring and > breaks your flow to ???switch mode??? to type one in. >From a purely subjective perspective, having programmed in an environment where instance and class methods were mixed together (Python), my opinion is that it makes things more difficult to understand. I also think from a theoretical perspective that they should be kept separate: Sending an instance method means sending a message to a different object from sending a class method, so they should be kept separate. While I agree that visually Nautilus could do a much better job of distinguishing between instance and class methods, it isn't an argument in favour of mixing them in a single list. Cheers, Alistair > I think Pharo is an environment to experiment with how we think about > programming (in Smalltalk as well as other languages) - GTInspector is > marvellous, that is something that really shows how thinking about the > problem differently can make such a difference. While, I think our > standard code browsers are ok - they are stuck in a rut that we need > to break. Calypso is a hint at what is possible, but I want > GTinspector type thinking more prevalent??? with similar types of > ideas that inspire us to code better. > > Anyway, it seems like I need to take this away and try some > experiments by myself. > > Tim

July 23, 2017

Pharo 6, scrolling with 2 fingers on a Mac trackpad is very erratic

by Tim Mackinnon

Hi - Iâm wondering if anyone else has noticed that in Pharo 6, when you scroll on a MacBook trackpad with 2 fingers, that strange things happen, particularly if you do it quickly. For example, in a system browser if you expand the configurations tree and scroll through it, it very often just suddenly closes that tree and just selects the âLast Modified Methodsâ and âConfigurationsâ list items. OR it will keep jumping to the top of the list and start scrolling down again. I see this latter behaviour when scrolling through methods of a class as well. I havenât noticed it in other applications, and its possible its my laptop or maybe settings I have on it - but Iâm curious if others have seen the same behaviour? I will go back and check a Pharo 3 or 5 image and see if its the same back there. Tim

July 23, 2017

What is the setting Software Configuration Management | Default Local Repository and why does it have a strange value?

by Tim Mackinnon

Hi - A while back I was struggling with loading some metacello libraries and was convinced there was something wrong with the default working directory. I found a different way of loading things and moved on. Anyway - I have just noticed in the the settings Browser that there is a section Software Configuration Management | Default Local Repository directory and it has a strange value in it that I didnât set and all my ZeroConf images seem to be using it (/builds/workspace/Pharo-6.0-Update-Step-1-Tracker). I âm wondering if this is a bug, or some artefact of how the images are being built - and maybe it was the cause of why Monticello was reporting weird directories? Equally there is another setting below it - Local Cache directory, and it seems to default to another strange directory (an old image of mine) - again I didnât set this in newer zero conf images - and Iâm wondering how that value gets in there are well (is there some global settings file my images automatically read?) Tim

July 23, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Why do we separate class/instance methods in the browser?

by Tim Mackinnon

I think my thread is misunderstood - Iâm not saying change how methods work, class methods are fine, instance methods are fine - Iâm just saying I donât think its ideal anymore to see them so separately in our UI. It was really driven home watching great programmers struggle (sure Smalltalk is a bit different - and there are many elegant things we have, but class methods are pretty normal in many languages) - and I have a similar frustration in that I find it a straight jacket that we have to click that class button just because we want to write what is effectively a constructor that occurs to us when we are writing an instance method. Its very jarring and breaks your flow to âswitch modeâ to type one in. I think Pharo is an environment to experiment with how we think about programming (in Smalltalk as well as other languages) - GTInspector is marvellous, that is something that really shows how thinking about the problem differently can make such a difference. While, I think our standard code browsers are ok - they are stuck in a rut that we need to break. Calypso is a hint at what is possible, but I want GTinspector type thinking more prevalentâ¦ with similar types of ideas that inspire us to code better. Anyway, it seems like I need to take this away and try some experiments by myself. Tim > On 23 Jul 2017, at 12:45, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi subbu > > I used the same metaphor :) > > Stef > > > On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 4:37 PM, K K Subbu <kksubbu.ml(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> On Saturday 22 July 2017 06:51 PM, Tim Mackinnon wrote: >> >>> The one that stuck out for me (and is actually mentioned in another >>> thread this week) was the class/instance method difference. They >>> conceptually understood the difference coming from other languages >>> but our UI is tricky to understand with the Class button toggle we >>> have, and if you get methods on the wrong side, like with a test, >>> it's quite confusing. >> >> >> It is an easy mistake to make and I have often seen this confusion in >> beginners. With the attention on the methods panel and text input, it is >> easy to overlook the class toggle button :-(. >> >> An easy fix is to switch background color to differentiate between class and >> instance methods in both code and input panels. A better way would be to use >> tabs (like in Inspector). >> >> BTW, I use the metaphor of toys (objects), moulds (classes) and mould >> factory (metaclass). A mould is an object from the perspective of the mould >> maker. Therefore operations on classes are 'methods' from the maker's >> perspective (note the recursion!). >> >>> Anyway - this got me thinking - why do we bother having a toggle in >>> our UI for this these days? Of course we know there is a class and a >>> metaclass but given that we have icons for methods now (and also have >>> a Protocol pane ) why don't we just show all the methods we have in >>> one list and let you filter them or even see them all? It seems much >>> easier and way more efficient to rapidly code this way. >> >> >> This perspective comes from the traditional way - code and compile. In >> Pharo, we code one method at a time and sources are held in an external file >> and a pointer stored in each method, so displaying all methods in one panel >> would result in multiple file reads. >> >>> The only question then would be how to create methods of the right >>> type - whether to have a button to create the right template (and put >>> the browser code pane in the right context) or whether to indicate >>> it by convention of the method name when creating it like + new: >>> aSize etc. (Or even: class new: aSize etc). >>> >>> The more I think about it, the more it seems like something we should >>> consider trying both for making ourselves more efficient (I'll bet >>> everyone has written a method on the wrong side by mistake) and also >>> helping newcomers. >> >> >> Such mistakes are part of the learning curve and decrease with time. >> >> Regards .. Subbu >> >

July 23, 2017