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Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Ben Coman

I played C019SD-W1-S1-EN-V1.mp4 and as well as the english voice, in the background I can still hear your original french voice. I'm curious the reasoning for this. cheers -ben On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 3:59 AM, Stephane Ducasse <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I'm about to release the en versions. > you can find them unofficially on http://www.stephaneducasse.eu/MOOC/ > > Stef > > On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 10:10 PM, Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > > On Tue, 10 Oct 2017 21:31:55 +0200 > > Stephane Ducasse > > <stepharo.self(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hello Stef, > > > >> I will ask one guy thursday and let you know. > > > > Thanks a lot! > > > >> We will release Mooc with english voices (not mine else english > >> natives would get an heart attack - I have what they call a sexy > >> french accents ;) > > > > I did watch few of your Pharo-related presentations and, although not > native, > > happily survived. :-) > > > > Moreover, I'd say that your English is charming! At least, one is sure > that the > > real human is speaking and not some "robot" put on auto-pilot, so if the > new > > Mooc is going to be the same as the current/old one, I'd prefer to > download > > the current files and watched them along with *.srt subtitles? > > > > Iow. my point is that the accent is just one part of the talk/teaching, > but the > > energy behind it is much more imporant - this is, my conviction, based > on my > > own teaching experiences. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > Gour > > > > -- > > From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion > > bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, > > intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost > > one falls down again into the material pool. > > > > > > > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Zinc release?

by Herby VojÄÃk

Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > >> On 12 Oct 2017, at 15:58, Herby VojÄÃk<herby(a)mailbox.sk> wrote: >> >> There are a few fixes out there for Zinc, not to mention convenience like ZnEntity class>> json:. Don't you consider releasing the new version (as I tried to update it by hand, it is not that easy, it has more components, to load HTTP I had to update Character-Encoding as well, so probably better if bumped as a group)? >> >> Herby > > That's what configurations are for, to track the latest development release in a consistent way. You just do > > ConfigurationOfZincHTTPComponents project bleedingEdge load. > > Provided you loaded a recent configuration. I'm nort sure I want the bleeding edge loaded, albeit for recent configuration, for the production code (thought not mission criticial about lives or millions of $$$). Also I don't know if configurations are updated after each change out there (it must be done by hand I presume). So I was asking if there isn't a time to release another stable one. If not, and I still want not the true bleeding edge, but a "it works for me" snapshot in time, to load specific version of ConfigurationOf... and the issue ... project bleedingEdge load? Will it load only those version that were bleedingEdge at that time? > See the class comment of ConfigurationOfZincHTTPComponents for more info. > > Sven > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] How to recover selections in a fastlist after an update

by Steven Costiou

Hi Ben, sure. This is my browser entry point: adaptationsBrowser | browser | browser := GLMTabulator new. browser row: [ :r | r column: #adaptations; column: #objects; column: #methods ]. browser row: #diff. browser transmit to: #adaptations; andShow: [ :a :adaptations | self adaptations: adaptations in: a ]. ^ browser adaptations: adaptations in: composite | list | list := composite fastList. list title: 'Adaptations'. list display: adaptations. adaptationsList := list. So my problem is that this adaptation list may change overtime. So periodically the #step method is called, the adaptation collection is updated and i also call #update to refresh the browser. However, if an adaptation was selected in the list, then calling #update will reset this selection. Le 2017-10-13 13:33, Ben Coman a Ã©crit : > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 5:53 PM, Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> I am using fastlists in a browser inspired from glmexamples, and when i use a stepping and that i update the browser (update method) all selections in lists are lost. >> >> Is there an automatic way to recover the selections or does it have to be handled in my code ? If so, i don't understand how to recover my selection, if i kept the fastlist in a var, doing list selection: myObject does not do anything. >> >> Steven. > Sorry I don't know the answer, I don't know much about this part of Pharo, but I'd like to learn more. Would it be possible for you to attach a minimal code example, so when an answer does come in, I'll have a chance to learn more about fastlist? > > cheers -ben

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Dimitris Chloupis

I am against the very idea of special syntax. Even python uses special syntax as nothing more than syntactic sugar to make the code more readable from the point of view of not everything looking the same. I agree with the concept of everything being an Object. I also dont like the idea that we tend to not have a clear cut border between the IDE and the language/library. Of course I think IDE functionality as much as namespaces is concerned (within the borders of my understanding) is essential. But should be seperate and the IDE act mostly as a visualisation tool and automation tool. My problem , is that the Pharo operates on a global space , so lets say i do what I said above I still dont avoid name collisions. Because MyInstance outside MyModule should diffirent from MyInstance inside MyModule. It could become possible by masking the names from the user. So that there is no conflict between MyModule MyInstance and MyModule2 MyInstance unless you introduce of couse similar to python the optional feature of collapsing the scope. We already have Packages which tie in with Metacello, so I was think about Modules or however we want to call them as a layer between. I am fine with metacello personally. Its the name collisions that only concerns me and not forcing me to use unique names. Of course a module can contain other modules. I know how to do this for my projects , I would manipulate the IDE into displaying Modules as a seperate row in System Browswer , Packages will continue being the the up most container. And for name of a class I would add the name of the Module to the class , if I wanted to keep supporting the existing enviroment , but hack it so it appears to the user as 2 seperate things so for user will see MyModule MyInsance myMessage: but it Would be for the system MyModuleMyInstance myMessage: which would make sense from naming persepctive even to an outsider not using the module system and would not require for him to install the modue library and essentially MyModule MyInstance act as you said via Message not understood as a reference to MyModuleMyInstance . A unary message returning a reference to an instance or class or other object. of course you will have a class like ModuleGenerator to handle the technical details for you Version control , dependencies and other technicallities would be handled normally as usually by Metacello with MyModule pointing also to the correct configuration , baseline, whatever. At least thats my general idea of it. On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 2:16 PM Thierry Goubier <thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Kilon, > > then the discussion is a bit different. As your example points out, the > syntax is already there, but the notion of a module is still open and ties > into the package management. > > I've played a bit with Metacello to have a working "project" concept > synchronized with Metacello, and I could imagine providing module like > objects (the baseline itself?) giving access to more generic names instead > of the internal, prefixed ones. > > One suggestion maybe: what about trying it for yourself with one of your > projects? With a kind of overall class which has the name of the module, > and automatically adding methods to it (or a #doesNotUnderstand: that > handles those) for all the classes in the module, removing from the class > name the prefix? It would allow an experiment, to see how the code looks > like and if it is understandable, or if a special syntax is necessary. > > Thierry > > > 2017-10-13 11:51 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > >> to be more specific what I mean because apparently I may know nothing >> about namespaces , I was talking in terms of Python's module and package >> system >> >> even though python uses special syntax "import" to import a module, a >> source file, the real functionality is actually a method but of an object >> dealing with the handling of modules and packages , packages are basically >> file directories containing mutliple modules >> >> as soon as you do the import the syntax is the usual object syntax >> >> so >> >> Dog.bark() >> >> can be anything >> 1) A class method call, Dog being the class >> 2) A instance method call, Dog being the instance >> 3) or a function call, Dog being the function , which is also an object >> (methods in python are basically function object taking the reference to an >> instance as first argument, hence why the weird syntax of adding self as >> first argument when we define instance method) and Dog is the module >> imported. >> >> of course in case (3) you can collapse the module "name" so you can do >> only bark() if you import via "from Dog import *" which means from module >> Dog import every object. >> But from import is frown upon in the python world because obviously it >> makes it easier to have name collision which is what the module system try >> to avoid in the first place. >> >> So the equivelant of pharo would be >> >> MyModule MyInstance myMessage: >> >> or if you include packages as well >> >> MyPackage MyModule MyInstance myMessage: >> >> which follows pharo syntax and OO design. That's my general idea at least. >> >> Please enlighten me :) >> >> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 12:30 PM Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 11:31 AM Thierry Goubier < >>> thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> 2017-10-13 10:12 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: >>>> >>>>> fair enough you think namespaces are not the right solution, what you >>>>> think is the right solution then ? >>>>> >>>> >>>> I told you. Namespaces are a solution, but they come with issues. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Then I misunderstood you but I am geniouly interested in what those >>> problems are and I think the infromation is something others will find >>> interesting as well. >>> >>> No. In the HPC world, a common held position is that Fortran code is 30% >>>> faster than C++. >>>> >>> >>> Cannot even rememeber the last time a 3d graphics developers mentioned >>> Fortran.I occasional frequent forums and mailing lists plus keeping in >>> contact with Blender developers. >>> >>> I have heard that Fortran can outperform C++ in numeric computation >>> around the percentage you mentioned but first time I heard that its >>> generally faster. >>> >>> Language Benchmark seems to strongly disagree >>> >>> >>> http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=ifc&lang2=gpp >>> >>> of its widely criticized but then what benchmark is not >>> >>> >>>> Remember that part of my job is to write compilers. >>>> >>>> >>> I knew that you write compilers (SmaCC) I did not realise you are a pro >>> and especially on ones that generate highly optimised machine code >>> >>> >>>> I'm also consider a guy to talk to when someone has deep issues with >>>> some of the new features of C++... even if I don't do C++, I can often >>>> reframe what the feature means in the overall scheme of programming >>>> languages. >>>> >>> >>> On other hand I have close to zero experience on compilers >>> . >>> >>> >>>> I find it very interesting. I consider that current compilers are very >>>> good optimising code that is written in a language that obscures the >>>> developper intent in the first place. >>>> >>> >>> I lost you there, you mean compilers for other languages than C++ ? >>> >>> As I told you, I work in a world where performance is paramount and C++ >>>> is strongly criticized for the fact its incidental complexity makes it very >>>> very hard to reach or maintain performance levels (compared to Fortran, >>>> say). >>>> >>>> Thierry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> And I "work" in a world that C++ is the undisputed king , that's 3d >>> graphics , though I must admit I try to stick with Python as much as I can. >>> >>> In any case my point was that if namespaces can be done in a badly >>> design language , should be possible in Pharo and easier. Not ease, just >>> easier. >>> >>> Of course that's just a wild assumption but I hope this thread do not >>> only disaprove my assumption but said a light in the real challanges of >>> namespace implementation >>> >>> >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] How to recover selections in a fastlist after an update

by Ben Coman

On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 5:53 PM, Steven Costiou <steven.costiou(a)kloum.io> wrote: > Hi, > > I am using fastlists in a browser inspired from glmexamples, and when i > use a stepping and that i update the browser (update method) all selections > in lists are lost. > > Is there an automatic way to recover the selections or does it have to be > handled in my code ? If so, i don't understand how to recover my selection, > if i kept the fastlist in a var, doing list selection: myObject does not do > anything. > > Steven. > Sorry I don't know the answer, I don't know much about this part of Pharo, but I'd like to learn more. Would it be possible for you to attach a minimal code example, so when an answer does come in, I'll have a chance to learn more about fastlist? cheers -ben

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Pillar

by Gour

On Fri, 13 Oct 2017 10:43:27 +0000 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Why exporting to latex, html and markdown is not enough for you ? Well, I usuallyconsider latex/html as more suitable as output formats, while standard markdown is semantically too poor for input format, but I'll test how Pillar's outputs are suitable as Pandoc's inputs. Sincerely, Gour -- It is far better to discharge one's prescribed duties, even though faultily, than another's duties perfectly. Destruction in the course of performing one's own duty is better than engaging in another's duties, for to follow another's path is dangerous.

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Thierry Goubier

Hi Kilon, then the discussion is a bit different. As your example points out, the syntax is already there, but the notion of a module is still open and ties into the package management. I've played a bit with Metacello to have a working "project" concept synchronized with Metacello, and I could imagine providing module like objects (the baseline itself?) giving access to more generic names instead of the internal, prefixed ones. One suggestion maybe: what about trying it for yourself with one of your projects? With a kind of overall class which has the name of the module, and automatically adding methods to it (or a #doesNotUnderstand: that handles those) for all the classes in the module, removing from the class name the prefix? It would allow an experiment, to see how the code looks like and if it is understandable, or if a special syntax is necessary. Thierry 2017-10-13 11:51 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > to be more specific what I mean because apparently I may know nothing > about namespaces , I was talking in terms of Python's module and package > system > > even though python uses special syntax "import" to import a module, a > source file, the real functionality is actually a method but of an object > dealing with the handling of modules and packages , packages are basically > file directories containing mutliple modules > > as soon as you do the import the syntax is the usual object syntax > > so > > Dog.bark() > > can be anything > 1) A class method call, Dog being the class > 2) A instance method call, Dog being the instance > 3) or a function call, Dog being the function , which is also an object > (methods in python are basically function object taking the reference to an > instance as first argument, hence why the weird syntax of adding self as > first argument when we define instance method) and Dog is the module > imported. > > of course in case (3) you can collapse the module "name" so you can do > only bark() if you import via "from Dog import *" which means from module > Dog import every object. > But from import is frown upon in the python world because obviously it > makes it easier to have name collision which is what the module system try > to avoid in the first place. > > So the equivelant of pharo would be > > MyModule MyInstance myMessage: > > or if you include packages as well > > MyPackage MyModule MyInstance myMessage: > > which follows pharo syntax and OO design. That's my general idea at least. > > Please enlighten me :) > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 12:30 PM Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 11:31 AM Thierry Goubier < >> thierry.goubier(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> 2017-10-13 10:12 GMT+02:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: >>> >>>> fair enough you think namespaces are not the right solution, what you >>>> think is the right solution then ? >>>> >>> >>> I told you. Namespaces are a solution, but they come with issues. >>> >>> >> >> Then I misunderstood you but I am geniouly interested in what those >> problems are and I think the infromation is something others will find >> interesting as well. >> >> No. In the HPC world, a common held position is that Fortran code is 30% >>> faster than C++. >>> >> >> Cannot even rememeber the last time a 3d graphics developers mentioned >> Fortran.I occasional frequent forums and mailing lists plus keeping in >> contact with Blender developers. >> >> I have heard that Fortran can outperform C++ in numeric computation >> around the percentage you mentioned but first time I heard that its >> generally faster. >> >> Language Benchmark seems to strongly disagree >> >> http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php? >> lang=ifc&lang2=gpp >> >> of its widely criticized but then what benchmark is not >> >> >>> Remember that part of my job is to write compilers. >>> >>> >> I knew that you write compilers (SmaCC) I did not realise you are a pro >> and especially on ones that generate highly optimised machine code >> >> >>> I'm also consider a guy to talk to when someone has deep issues with >>> some of the new features of C++... even if I don't do C++, I can often >>> reframe what the feature means in the overall scheme of programming >>> languages. >>> >> >> On other hand I have close to zero experience on compilers >> . >> >> >>> I find it very interesting. I consider that current compilers are very >>> good optimising code that is written in a language that obscures the >>> developper intent in the first place. >>> >> >> I lost you there, you mean compilers for other languages than C++ ? >> >> As I told you, I work in a world where performance is paramount and C++ >>> is strongly criticized for the fact its incidental complexity makes it very >>> very hard to reach or maintain performance levels (compared to Fortran, >>> say). >>> >>> Thierry >>> >>> >> >> And I "work" in a world that C++ is the undisputed king , that's 3d >> graphics , though I must admit I try to stick with Python as much as I can. >> >> In any case my point was that if namespaces can be done in a badly design >> language , should be possible in Pharo and easier. Not ease, just easier. >> >> Of course that's just a wild assumption but I hope this thread do not >> only disaprove my assumption but said a light in the real challanges of >> namespace implementation >> >>

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

by Dimitris Chloupis

Thanks for the insight Andrew , I heard of VisualAge Smalltalk but not of C++ and Java, very interesting :) On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:44 PM Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > VA (VisualAge) for C++ and for Java were two IBM products, the latter > being the predecessor to Eclipse. They were both available on OS/2 and > Windows NT variants (2000 mainly), and the C++ version on AIX. Whichever > platform the C++ version was run on, you could target any supported runtime > platform. They were all (along with VisualAge Smalltalk, now maintained and > sold by Instantiations and currently at version 9.0, and VisualAge > Generator - a Cobol version) written in IBM Smalltalk. > > I still use VA C++, Java, and occasionally VA Smalltalk, albeit the latter > at v. 6.02, in a VM running OS/2 (well, Ecomstation, but it's the same as > OS/2 4.5, just updated for more recent hardware - interestingly Arca Noae > released a version 5.0, the first official (i.e. called OS/2 version since > 2004, in June of this year). > > I use them for prototyping and quickly creating cross-VM client/server > apps that allow me to generate virtual network traffic without using tons > of memory for each VM (much of what I do involves monitoring network > protocols such as BGP, and without traffic to exercise the virtualized > aggregated service routers, I can't demonstrate the code without carrying 6 > 75lb servers on my back). > > I can run Lotus Domino plus 10-12 server apps written in VA C++ in a VM > with one or two vCPU's and 256MB RAM. On the client, I can run a couple > dozen Java clients, connecting either to the C++ servers or Domino, in > 128MB. I put a screenshot of the CPP and Java versions below. > > For Smalltalk code, Pharo is better than VA, certainly better than the > 6.02 version, but for C++ or Java, as long as you don't mind prototyping in > an old Java version (lacking the syntactic parmesan, mainly), they're still > better than anything else. Both incrementally compile/precompile in-memory > on save the way ST does, but that's fairly rare in C++. Both have ways of > writing arbitrary test code similar to a playground, which is also rare in > either language. Both also have data access libraries that are far faster > and easier to use than JPA, never mind CMP. VA Java also includes an > ancient version of WebSphere for J2EE. > > CORBA (Common Object Request Broker Architecture) is a complex way of > exchanging objects/data between languages. I've seen interviewers who > are/were developers actually shake if I mention it. However both the C++ > and Java versions handled most of the details without any fuss. > > All the build/deploy tooling was in the environment. With the app I > mentioned, lacking those environments it's maybe not *impossible*, but > likely at least close to 'infinitely improbable' to get the thing built > properly, never mind actually change the code and configs. The junior > developer from that project is a friend of mine's little brother, he's > *still* at the company that paid to have it built, and it's now 15 years > later, just so it will keep running. Ironically he was fresh out of school > at the time and basically worked as a gopher, he didn't write or even debug > a line of code. After we finished the project I taught him how to > modify/build it using those tools, and they're still the only thing he can > use. > > cheers > Andrew > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > *Date*: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 07:26:13 +0000 > *Subject*: Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on" > *To*: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > <Any%20question%20about%20pharo%20is%20welcome%20%3cpharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org%3e> > > > Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > > > *From*: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com > <Dimitris%20Chloupis%20%3ckilon.alios(a)gmail.com%3e>> > What is a VA Java ? and a VA C++ ? > > Call me an idiot or insane but I am in favor of combiding languages, > though I only have heard of COBRA never used it. > > I am a lawyer by profession, I know fellow lawyers still using DOS and > QBasic databases and yes under windows ...... sadly very common for > businesses here. Ah the pleasures of technology but nothing comes close to > the pleasure of rejecting it. > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 12:49 AM Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I know about personalization being a lot of work, particularly with > Eclipse. I copied the text out of the âsummaryâ page in About Eclipse into > Kate, and it was 1233 lines long, lol. > > > > I was one of two team leads on what was probably the most complex > application Iâve worked on, using VA Java and VA C++ with CORBA to exchange > objects (the need to combine both was due to legacy issues). Siemens now > owns the application, which was successful enough to bankrupt its closest > competitor, but the binary jars in the latest version are still dated 2002, > and every addition has been made via .the WS* API we included, which if I > remember correctly, uses version 1.x of WebSphere. Iâm a bit surprised it > still runs at all tbh, but its security must be horrible by now. > > > > Eclipseâs only saving grace is EMF/CDO, and a few projects built on them, > IMHO. > > > > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for > Windows 10 > > > > *From: *Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > *Sent: *Thursday, October 12, 2017 2:05 PM > *To: *Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > *Subject: *Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on" > > > > It's a mentality issue, modern programming languages provide the material > necessary to create innovative environments but their communities just > simply does not care. A language designer may introduce a feature in a > language that is super useful. Still people may not use it. > > > > And let's face it even with Pharo nothing beats a personalized > environment, of course personalisation is a lot of work. Hence why people > avoid it. > > > > Essentially boiling down to cooking your own food instead of getting it > from a shop. When you begin to learn how to cook , its kinda sucks, but the > more you cook the better it tastes. Of course it takes time to get there > and hence why so few people cook. > > > > Eclispe , which I will disagree with your that is not the worst IDE, > started as a smalltalk IDE and then it got Eclipsed. I am sure those people > had a "build on" environment , still it got messy. We can blame porting to > Java, but can we really blame Java for the mess that is called > "Eclipse".... ehhhh.... nope. > > > > I once saw a youtube video about a musician using windows sounds (the > standard sounds we all know of) to make a very nice music piece. He did > all that using multiple instances of windows media player. Just pause > reading think about this for a minute. That's the real essence of creativity > > > > Use something very limited and come up with something amazing. The > software industry is not about creativity for the most part. On the other > hand I that work with 3d its amazing how fast super cool new technologies > pop around like mushrooms. Every year we have massive improvements in > libraries and tools. But the coding for 3d graphics is all about creativity > , artists are not very forgiving for ugly GUI, limited features and > innovation stagnation. Artists want to be inspired by the tools they use. > But then that's the creativity realm. Creativity pays the bills in this > case, lack of it , game is not fun, rendering or animation is not fun, you > can lose millions. > > > > Of course in the creativity realm , there is too much innovation and > unless you keep up you are kicked out the door, yesterday. Which brings > down to the problem of complexity and how you deal with it. And I don't > mean about bad complexity , aka web dev, I am talking about good > complexity. Features you cannot ignore because other will use before you > and you are left behind etc. > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 7:13 PM Peter Fisk <peter.fisk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Thanks for posting this. > > > > It is one of the best descriptions of the state of the software industry > that I have seen. > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > https://medium.com/@dasein42/building-with-versus-building-on-c51aa3034c71 > > > > This is an article not *specifically* about Pharo, rather on the state of the industry > in general and how it got that way, but positing Pharo as a way to learn > building-*on* rather than building-*with*, where in the latter case on > every project you start at essentially the same place. > > > > As a result it does put in front of people a fair amount of info on Pharo, > and challenges them to try it. > > > > cheers > > Andrew Glynn > > > > > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Pillar (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Dimitris Chloupis

Why exporting to latex, html and markdown is not enough for you ? On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:05 PM Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:18:54 +0000 > Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Well there is a move towards Pillar for class and method commands so > > who knows maybe we will have that soon enough ;) > > Let me say that I'm very happy seeing that Pillar is moving forward (e.g. > addition of support for footnotes) as well as plan for the future (*.epub > support) since I'm considering whether it could serve as single-source > markup > for all of one's writings? > > After migrating from Python-powered static-site-generator (to Hugo) and rst > markup I was considering to use AsciiDoc(tor) markup for all my content, > but, > so far, due to using Emacsm settled to use org-mode instead. Haven't tried > with > slides (yet), but there is Pandoc support for it. > > Therefore, I'd rather see Pillar support in Pandoc which would buy us even > more > import/export capabilities for free instead of focusing on single formats > like > *.odt, *.epub etc. > > Pillar with 1st class support in Pandoc would, imho, improve status of > Pharo > itself making it along with Pillar exceelent tool for development as well > as > for all writing needs - articles, books, documentation, > slide-presentations. > > But it would be nice to make it more transparent where/how can one submit > feature request for Pillar? > > Fogbugs issue trakcer is certainly not the ideal place these days... > > > Sincerely, > Gour > > -- > Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities > he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no > one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment. > > > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"

by Andrew Glynn

VA (VisualAge) for C++ and for Java were two IBM products, the latter being the predecessor to Eclipse.Â Â They were both available on OS/2 and Windows NT variants (2000 mainly), and the C++ version on AIX.Â Â Whichever platform the C++ version was run on, you could target any supported runtime platform.Â Â They were all (along with VisualAge Smalltalk, now maintained and sold by Instantiations and currently at version 9.0, and VisualAge Generator - a Cobol version) written in IBM Smalltalk. I still use VA C++, Java, and occasionally VA Smalltalk, albeit the latter at v. 6.02, in a VM running OS/2 (well, Ecomstation, but it's the same as OS/2 4.5, just updated for more recent hardware - interestingly Arca Noae released a version 5.0, the first official (i.e. called OS/2 version since 2004, in June of this year). Â I use them for prototyping and quickly creating cross-VM client/server apps that allow me to generate virtual network traffic without using tons of memory for each VM (much of what I do involves monitoring network protocols such as BGP, and without traffic to exercise the virtualized aggregated service routers, I can't demonstrate the code without carrying 6 75lb servers on my back). Â I can run Lotus Domino plus 10-12 server apps written in VA C++ in a VM with one or two vCPU's and 256MB RAM.Â Â On the client, I can run a couple dozen Java clients, connecting either to the C++ servers or Domino, in 128MB.Â Â I put a screenshot of the CPP and Java versions below. For Smalltalk code, Pharo is better than VA, certainly better than the 6.02 version, but for C++ or Java, as long as you don't mind prototyping in an old Java version (lacking the syntactic parmesan, mainly), they're still better than anything else. Both incrementally compile/precompile in-memory on save the way ST does, but that's fairly rare in C++.Â Â Both have ways of writing arbitrary test code similar to a playground, which is also rare in either language. Both also have data access libraries that are far faster and easier to use than JPA, never mind CMP.Â Â VA Java also includes an ancient version of WebSphere for J2EE. CORBAÂ (Common Object Request Broker Architecture) is a complex way of exchanging objects/data between languages.Â Â I've seen interviewers who are/were developers actually shake if I mention it.Â Â However both the C++ and Java versions handled most of the details without any fuss.Â Â Â All the build/deploy tooling was in the environment. With the app I mentioned, lacking those environments it's maybe not impossible, but likely at least close to 'infinitely improbable' to get the thing built properly, never mind actually change the code and configs.Â Â The junior developer from that project is a friend of mine's little brother, he's still at the company that paid to have it built, and it's now 15 years later, just so it will keep running. Ironically he was fresh out of school at the time and basically worked as a gopher, he didn't write or even debug a line of code.Â Â After we finished the project I taught him how to modify/build it using those tools, and they're still the only thing he can use.Â Â cheersAndrew Â -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 07:26:13 +0000Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org>Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org>From: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon. alios(a)gmail.com>What is a VA Java ? and a VA C++ ?Â Call me an idiot or insane but I am in favor of combiding languages, though I only have heard of COBRA never used it.Â I am a lawyer by profession, I know fellow lawyers still using DOS and QBasic databases and yes under windows ...... sadly very common for businesses here. Ah the pleasures of technology but nothing comes close to the pleasure of rejecting it.Â On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 12:49 AM Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I know about personalization being a lot of work, particularly with > Eclipse.Â I copied the text out of the âsummaryâ page in About > Eclipse into Kate, and it was 1233 lines long, lol.Â Â > Â > I was one of two team leads on what was probably the most complex > application Iâve worked on, using VA Java and VA C++ with CORBA to > exchange objects (the need to combine both was due to legacy > issues).Â Siemens now owns the application, which was successful > enough to bankrupt its closest competitor, but the binary jars in the > latest version are still dated 2002, and every addition has been made > via .the WS* API we included, which if I remember correctly, uses > version 1.x of WebSphere.Â Iâm a bit surprised it still runs at all > tbh, but its security must be horrible by now. > Â > Eclipseâs only saving grace is EMF/CDO, and a few projects built on > them, IMHO. > Â > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > Â > From: Dimitris Chloupis > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 2:05 PM > To: Any question about pharo is welcome > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] "Building-With versus Building-on"Â > It's a mentality issue, modern programming languages provide the > material necessary to create innovative environments but their > communities just simply does not care. A language designer may > introduce a feature in a language that is super useful. Still people > may not use it.Â > Â > And let's face it even with Pharo nothing beats a personalized > environment, of course personalisation is a lot of work. Hence why > people avoid it.Â Â > Â > Essentially boiling down to cooking your own food instead of getting > it from a shop. When you begin to learn how to cook , its kinda > sucks, but the more you cook the better it tastes. Of course it takes > time to get there and hence why so few people cook.Â > Â > Eclispe , which I will disagree with your that is not the worst IDE, > started as a smalltalk IDE and then it got Eclipsed. I am sure those > people had a "build on" environment , still it got messy. We can > blame porting to Java, but can we really blame Java for the mess that > is called "Eclipse".... ehhhh.... nope.Â > Â > I once saw a youtube video about a musician using windows sounds (the > standard sounds we all know of) to makeÂ a very nice music piece. He > did all that using multiple instances of windows media player. Just > pause reading think about this for a minute. That's the real essence > of creativity > Â > Use something very limited and come up with something amazing. The > software industry is not about creativity for the most part. On the > other hand I that work with 3d its amazing how fast super cool new > technologies pop around like mushrooms. Every year we have massive > improvements in libraries and tools. But the coding for 3d graphics > is all about creativity , artists are not very forgiving for ugly > GUI, limited features and innovation stagnation. Artists want to be > inspired by the tools they use. But then that's the creativity realm. > Creativity pays the bills in this case, lack of it , game is not fun, > rendering or animation is not fun, you can lose millions.Â > Â > Of course in the creativity realm , there is too much innovation and > unless you keep up you are kicked out the door, yesterday. Which > brings down to the problem of complexity and how you deal with it. > And I don't mean about bad complexity , aka web dev, I am talking > about good complexity. Features you cannot ignore because other will > use before you and you are left behind etc.Â > Â > Â > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 7:13 PM Peter Fisk <peter.fisk(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > Thanks for posting this. > Â > It is one of the best descriptions of the state of the software > industry that I have seen. > Â > Â > On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Andrew Glynn <aglynn42(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > https://medium.com/@dasein42/building-with-versus-building-on-c51aa30 > 34c71Â This is an article not specifically about Pharo, rather on the > state of the industry > in general and how it got that way, but positing Pharo as a way to > learn > building-on rather than building-with, where in the latter case on > every project you start at essentially the same place.Â Â As a result > it does put in front of people a fair amount of info on Pharo, and > challenges them to try it. > Â cheersAndrew Glynn > Â > Â

Oct. 13, 2017