- Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Andrew Glynn

I can't remember ever using API docs in any language, dynamic or not.Â Â They give you the method signatures, but if you have, say, methodX(int, int, String), how are you supposed to guess what ints and what String the method actually needs, unless the methods are nothing but getters and setters (which I've never understood the point of) ?Â Â (I know, most give (int somename, int someothername, String whatever), but how often do are method names well thought through enough to imply definitively what the method needs?. Â It's my biggest issue with Algol-style syntax - the method caller is supposed to know how it works, rather than whoever actually wrote it.Â Â It's probably at least one of the reasons for the amount of OSS in Java, and more recently in JavaScript (though the latter is more no- style than Algol-style).Â Â I nearly always download the source to OSS libs although I rarely ever bother building it, so I know what a method does with the params, and I can be sure what params to give it. One of my favourite language fails can be reproduced by doing this:Â Declare a field private final in Java, initializing it either in the declaration or the constructor, and provide only a getter.Â Â Use the getter from another class and change the value of the local variable. Then use the getter again, but assign the value to a new local variable, and check the value. Â Guess what? The value is whatever you changed it to in your other local variable, although the API docs claim javac won't compile it. I tested this with Java 8,Â Â I haven't bothered to see if it was always like that or if they took the rule out of javac because it interfered with some syntactic parmesan, such as lambdas.Â Â I should copy my test code into VisualAge for Java and see if in fact it compiles with JDK 1.4.2, or if javac was changed in between 4 and 8, since the addition of various flavours of syntactic parmesan mostly started with Java 5. Not that it's all that important in one sense.Â Â If 'private' and 'final' were supposed to be guides for other developers to be careful if they're thinking about changing it, fine, anyone who doesn't isn't all that good a developer.Â Â But given the number of 'not very good' developers I've had the misfortune to work with in Java, it's more problematic than it should be.Â Â It also makes the pattern of a private field with a public setter even more useless, since the setter isn't needed to change the value.Â Â I always get dinged by whatever lint companies use for not bothering with that pattern, though, and pointing out that declaring the fields public accomplishes exactly the same thing never helps my case, because whatever lint they use, it has to be right, there's no way a non-lint developer might be right. Andrew Glynn -----Original Message----- Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 10:01:20 -0500Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern SmalltalkTo: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.orgReply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org>From: Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Yes. I know them. I mean API docs as static files. I don't really Â Â Â Â Â Â sold on them compared with a live system and I don't think static Â Â Â Â Â Â API docs are critical for Pharo success. Â Â Â Â Cheers, Â Â Â Â Offray Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â On 11/10/17 09:52, Dimitris Chloupis Â Â Â Â Â Â wrote: Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > Ah > Â Â Â Â Â Â and my static website was built with Pillar and Bootstrap, > using > Â Â Â Â Â Â bootstrap templates was easy because Pillar supports mustache > that > Â Â Â Â Â Â makes html manipulation much easierÂ > > Â Â Â Â Â Â > > Â Â Â Â Â Â http://www.kilon-alios.com > > Â Â Â Â Â Â > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Pillar of course is not made for generating websites but itâs > an > Â Â Â Â Â Â awesome Pharo library that allows for great degree of freedom > so I > Â Â Â Â Â Â thought , why not ? > > Â Â Â Â Â Â > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:48, Dimitris Chloupis > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > Docs are > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â available in static online html format , at least the > > book I > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â was working onÂ > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Pharo By ExampleÂ > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â You can find those links here > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/UpdatedPharoBy > > Example > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Our documentation system , Pillar , outputs pdf , html > > and > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â markdown files.Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â If the book in question is built like PBE with CI of > > Inria > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â where most Pharo related official projects are built then > > it > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â should have at least pdf and html with online access so > > you > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â can easily link to. > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Donât quote me on this but I think the html output of > > pillar > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â generate links even for paragraphs you can do an even > > more > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â process linking to the documentation.Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 at 17:40, Offray Vladimir > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Luna CÃ¡rdenas <offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â wrote: > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â The more I use Pharo, the less I use web > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â documentation. For me seems pretty suboptimal > > > compared > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â to live environment with code browser and GT- > > > Spotter. > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Regarding the comment on Medium, it also took > > > me > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â little to find #raisedTo:, so the millage can > > > vary. > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â What I was missing was proper books for > > > particular > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â domains, but Pharo books are covering that. I > > > don't > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â know if a Q&A site could improve search-ability > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â for newbies (certainly you can find little > > > stuff in > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Stack Overflow). > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â My bet is about trying to create more "end user" > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â tools (Grafoscopio is kind of this), besides > > > tools for > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â developers. There is a broad community of > > > people who > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â can be active contributors and members of the > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â community, welcome Pharo and live coding a lot > > > and > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â don't complain that much about stuff that is > > > not > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â already pretty similar to what they already > > > know > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â (being that only English MOOC or online static > > > html > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â docs). > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Cheers, > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Offray > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â On > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 11/10/17 07:34, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â for me it is a yes and no situation, > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â yes its very coold to have your entire > > > > system in > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â your fingertips but Pharo has serious > > > > issues with > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â code organisation and I find the lack of > > > > namespaces > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â quite inconvenient. You have to be careful > > > > how to > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â name your classes which does not sound to > > > > me very > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â OOP friendly.Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Also the IDE does not handle > > > > spaggetification > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â very well, sure you can find implementors > > > > , > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â senders etc but if the execution chain is > > > > complex > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â , welcome to spaggeti hell. But that is a > > > > problem > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â with most other IDEs if not all as well. > > > > Problem > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â is in this case that we have the very > > > > good rule of > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â using sort methods which multiplies this > > > > problem > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â and makes navigation even harder. Code > > > > becomes > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â much easier to read per method and > > > > messages but > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â much harder to understand in a bird eye > > > > view. > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Some of that pain has been aleviated with > > > > the > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â introduction of GTSpotter which I have > > > > praised > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â quite a lot and I will continue to do so. > > > > But yeah > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â there are more needed to be done in the > > > > department > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â to make Pharo code navigation a more > > > > comfortable > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â task.Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â On Wed, Oct 11, 2017 at 2:57 PM Vitor > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â wrote: > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I > > > > > find > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â the System Browser a fantastic way > > > > > to explore > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â the class library. If you find a > > > > > class or > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â method that isnât well documented, > > > > > write a > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â comment and send a change request. > > > > > Stef told > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â me this ages ago. I might add, if > > > > > you find a > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â bug you should write a test that > > > > > exercises the > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â bug and submit it on fogbugz (the > > > > > bug tracking > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â system). > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â I will reference of response of > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â mine to a similar opinion made by > > > > > Richard: https://medium.com/@vitormcruz/i-disagree-it-is-much > > > > > -harder-to-find-anything-in-the-environment-c6bdd44f6eea > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â My 2 cents. > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 11:59 PM, john pfersich <jpfersich@ > > > > > gmail.com> > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > On Oct 10, 2017, at 09:58, > > > > > > horrido > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > Interestingly, I'm getting > > > > > > a fair > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â amount of pushback on this. > > > > > > Personally, I > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > think it would be very > > > > > > helpful to > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â have a live (updatable, so as > > > > > > to keep it > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > current) reference page for > > > > > > the class > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â library, something that > > > > > > developers can > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > easily look up what they > > > > > > need. After > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â all, most of the power of > > > > > > Pharo comes > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > from the class library and > > > > > > we need to > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â make it as accessible as > > > > > > possible to > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > less experienced Pharoers > > > > > > (i.e., > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â beginners). > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > Exploring the class library > > > > > > through > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â the System Browser is very > > > > > > inefficient. > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > This is further exacerbated > > > > > > by the > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â fact that many classes and > > > > > > methods are > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > simply not well-documented > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â (containing a cursory remark > > > > > > which is just > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â barely > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > useful). > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â I dunno, maybe Iâm weird, but I > > > > > > find > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â the System Browser a fantastic > > > > > > way to > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â explore the class library. If > > > > > > you find a > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â class or method that isnât well > > > > > > documented, > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â write a comment and send a > > > > > > change request. > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Stef told me this ages ago. I > > > > > > might add, if > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â you find a bug you should write > > > > > > a test that > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â exercises the bug and submit it > > > > > > on fogbugz > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â (the bug tracking system). > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > I realize that creating a > > > > > > live > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â reference page is not easy > > > > > > to do. In > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â fact, > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > it's a lot of work. But > > > > > > the absence > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â of such a page is a real > > > > > > obstacle to > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > Pharo acceptance. > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > horrido wrote > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> Thanks. I gave your > > > > > > answer > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â verbatim. I also added the > > > > > > following > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â paragraph: > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> The problem I find with > > > > > > todayâs > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â developers is that they are > > > > > > rather > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> closed-minded. They are > > > > > > rigid > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â and inflexible, and not > > > > > > willing to adapt > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â to > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> new and different ways > > > > > > of doing > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â things. In my generation > > > > > > (circa > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> 1980â1990), > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> people didnât have a > > > > > > problem > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â with trying different > > > > > > technologies. > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Thatâs > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> why > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> I had no issue with > > > > > > learning > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Smalltalk 10 years ago, > > > > > > after I had > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â retired > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> from a 20-year-long > > > > > > career in C > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â systems programming and > > > > > > FORTRAN > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â scientific > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> programming. > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 > > > > > > wrote > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> On 6 Oct 2017, at > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 14:54, horrido < > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> horrido.hobbies@ > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> I received this > > > > > > comment > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â from someone who > > > > > > complained: > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> *What about the lack > > > > > > of > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â documentation? From time to > > > > > > time Iâve > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â checked > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> some > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> SmallTalk > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â implementations like > > > > > > Squeak, > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â GNU-Smalltalk and now > > > > > > Pharo. Of > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> these, only > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â GNU-SmallTalk appears to > > > > > > have a free, > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â official programming > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> guide > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> and core library > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â reference that any serious > > > > > > programmer > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â expects from a > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> language. > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> https://www.gnu.org/so > > > > > > ftware/smalltalk/manual-base/html_node/* > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> I pointed to Pharo's > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â documentation but then he > > > > > > came back > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â with: > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> *Then show me a link > > > > > > of > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â the free, maintained > > > > > > reference > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â documentation for > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> the > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> classes that form âthe > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â core libraryâ, like this > > > > > > one for Python > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> (https://docs.python.o > > > > > > rg/3/library/index.html)* > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> It's true, most > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Smalltalks do not have a > > > > > > core library > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â reference, not > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> even > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> VisualWorks! So what > > > > > > is > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â the proper response to this > > > > > > complaint? > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> The first answer is > > > > > > that > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Pharo/Smalltalk is unique > > > > > > in that a > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â running > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> system/IDE contains > > > > > > _all_ > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â source code, _all_ > > > > > > documentation (class, > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> method, > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> help, tutorial), _all_ > > > > > > unit > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â tests and _all_ runnable > > > > > > examples in a > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â very > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> easy, accessible way. > > > > > > It > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â takes some getting used to, > > > > > > but this is > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â actually > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> better and much more > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â powerful than any > > > > > > alternative. > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> The second answer is > > > > > > that > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â there are lots of books and > > > > > > articles > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â that take > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> the classic/structured > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â book/paper approach. There > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> http://books.pharo.org, > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â http://themoosebook.org, > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> http://book.seaside.st/ > > > > > > book, > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â http://medium.com/concernin > > > > > > g-pharo > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â and many > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> more. > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> Sent from: http://foru > > > > > > m.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â >> Sent from: http://forum. > > > > > > world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > Sent from: http://forum.w > > > > > > orld.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â > > Â Â Â Â Â Â > Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â

Oct. 13, 2017

Is possible to keep some code closed in Pharo?

by Ricardo Pacheco

IMHO, one important aspect to deliver comercial solutions for customers in an environment like Pharo is to be able to protect certain code or algorithms developed by the company. It possible to have some clases compiled and closed to the eyes of customers? Or it is posible to have some kind of access control to edit clases? A bit of context for my question. In the company I work for in Mexico we have been using a similar live coding environment for 30 years with great results. The environment we used until a couple of years ago is named G2 by Gensym; lisp based internally, with is own natural language like syntax for developers, with a very powerful backward ans forwards chaining rule engine, an excellent toolkit to create visual components and a wonderful VNC like and lightwaight client(Telewindows) that makes visual interactions with a remote G2 very easy with a very small bandwidth use. Until a couple of years ago, we developed on it tailor made supply chain solutions and mathematical models; since then we moved to Java and .NET. We wish we could stay with live coding, but the draw back with that platform we used is that is really expensive for customers and the company has been changing hands to more lawyer oriented owners, because of its installed based license fees and IP portfolio. So, getting to know Pharo makes me very enthusiastic about the possibility to move back to live coding. Thanks for the response. Ricardo -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Esteban A. Maringolo

You're mixing modularization, namespacing, packaging and parametrization. If we're speaking about modules/namespaces I rather call them as such, not Pink Elephant. Having an agreement on the terms semantic is important for any communication. To me a module is not a factorization for the bootstrap process nor the proper packaging to enable partial loading, a module must be reified as such. The only Smalltalks I remember had something closer to a module were VisualSmalltalk and maybe VisualWorks binary parcels can be thought as modules, but strictly speaking none of them implement modules as such. Only Modtalk tried to do that, but the project seems defunct now. Regards, Esteban A. Maringolo 2017-10-13 12:00 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com>: > Modularisation is coming whether you like it or not > its called > > Bootstrap > > And the more modular the image will get the more will get closer to > namespaces anyway. So frankly all I have to do is wait and if I can of > course contribute ;) > > You can call it Bootstrap or the Pink Elephant for all I care, in the end > for me its about having multi layer system. That's all I care. > > But you wont get an argument from me the more about the fact that the more > we wait the harder will get but again, I am not a Bootstrap contributor so I > have no right to complain. I really admire those people :D > > Modularisation for personal project is super easy to do,if you do it from > the start that is, its the existing code that is a pain in the hat to > modularise when until fairly recently even colors were hard coded into the > IDE. > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 3:55 PM Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> > wrote: >> >> 2017-10-13 5:55 GMT-03:00 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: >> > >> >> Am 13.10.2017 um 10:24 schrieb stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl>: >> >> >> >> On 13-10-17 09:55, Thierry Goubier wrote: >> >>> Because namespaces, by essence, come with serious issues. I won't take >> >>> someone seriously on namespaces until he can cite those faithfully. >> >> >> >> Let's start with the misconception that namespaces are about >> >> modularisation >> >> >> > +1 >> >> +1 to this as well. >> >> Having modularization is like having security, very hard to add them >> later if you didn't include it in the original design. >> >> I'm using VisualWorks these days, and I find its namespaces something >> more of a hassle than a real use. >> >> If we could name Classes with a dot, that could solve most of what >> namespaces are used for in practice: avoiding name colissions. >> That's why most of the popular frameworks have prefixes like Zn, WA, >> RB, and so on and so forth. But now I'm used to prefixes, I don't need >> them. :) >> >> Modularity is a different beast, if you look at how some modules work >> in JS, like AMD, you see that in practice they avoid collisions by >> importin what they need from a module, and assign it to a "namespace" >> (it is not, but works as such), so they get modules first, and >> namespacing later. >> >> Regards, >> >> Esteban. >> >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] FYI about Pharo MOOC

by Ricardo Pacheco

Great, I will have a look at them. I registered to participate in the MOOC starting on Oct 16, so look forward to contribute back a bit. Ricardo -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Dimitris Chloupis

Modularisation is coming whether you like it or not its called Bootstrap And the more modular the image will get the more will get closer to namespaces anyway. So frankly all I have to do is wait and if I can of course contribute ;) You can call it Bootstrap or the Pink Elephant for all I care, in the end for me its about having multi layer system. That's all I care. But you wont get an argument from me the more about the fact that the more we wait the harder will get but again, I am not a Bootstrap contributor so I have no right to complain. I really admire those people :D Modularisation for personal project is super easy to do,if you do it from the start that is, its the existing code that is a pain in the hat to modularise when until fairly recently even colors were hard coded into the IDE. On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 3:55 PM Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > 2017-10-13 5:55 GMT-03:00 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: > > > >> Am 13.10.2017 um 10:24 schrieb stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl>: > >> > >> On 13-10-17 09:55, Thierry Goubier wrote: > >>> Because namespaces, by essence, come with serious issues. I won't take > >>> someone seriously on namespaces until he can cite those faithfully. > >> > >> Let's start with the misconception that namespaces are about > modularisation > >> > > +1 > > +1 to this as well. > > Having modularization is like having security, very hard to add them > later if you didn't include it in the original design. > > I'm using VisualWorks these days, and I find its namespaces something > more of a hassle than a real use. > > If we could name Classes with a dot, that could solve most of what > namespaces are used for in practice: avoiding name colissions. > That's why most of the popular frameworks have prefixes like Zn, WA, > RB, and so on and so forth. But now I'm used to prefixes, I don't need > them. :) > > Modularity is a different beast, if you look at how some modules work > in JS, like AMD, you see that in practice they avoid collisions by > importin what they need from a module, and assign it to a "namespace" > (it is not, but works as such), so they get modules first, and > namespacing later. > > Regards, > > Esteban. > >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Pillar (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Hi, I have created a document in Grafoscopio. The source file is a single Grafoscopio notebook in STON [1] (~600kb), the output is a single Pandoc's Markdown file[2] (~500kb), and you can produce the output as a PDF file like in [3] (~13Mb). Pandoc has a lot of maturity and a community with a lot of momentum, dedicated mainly to light documentation. If we have support for Pandoc's Markdown on Pharo, we can leverage on that knowledge and tools without reinventing the wheel. Of course using AST and a lot of infrastructure behind Pillar can be used, without falling in love with its syntax. [1] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/doc/tip/mapeda.ston [2] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/doc/tip/mapeda.markdown [3] http://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/mapeda/uv/mapeda.pdf Cheers, Offray On 13/10/17 08:21, H. Hirzel wrote: > Interoperability with pandoc is desirable > > Some people want MSWord documents and they provide input in the form > of MSWord documents. > Or LibreOffice ODT. > > pandoc handles that well for a subset of MSWord options. > > pandoc allows you as well to write a custom output format -- in this > case Pillar. > > E.g. conversion from MSWord docx to Pillar is possible. > > It would need somebody to look into the issue of doing some Lua scripting. > pandoc has Lua embedded for output generation. > > > --Hannes > > > P.S. I will have some time later for Pillar issues (not Lua), but the > document model and generation of slides. Still open issue on my list > is rendering Pillar on Morphic, in particular slide. > > > On 10/13/17, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> Why exporting to latex, html and markdown is not enough for you ? >> >> On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:05 PM Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:18:54 +0000 >>> Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Well there is a move towards Pillar for class and method commands so >>>> who knows maybe we will have that soon enough ;) >>> Let me say that I'm very happy seeing that Pillar is moving forward (e.g. >>> addition of support for footnotes) as well as plan for the future (*.epub >>> support) since I'm considering whether it could serve as single-source >>> markup >>> for all of one's writings? >>> >>> After migrating from Python-powered static-site-generator (to Hugo) and >>> rst >>> markup I was considering to use AsciiDoc(tor) markup for all my content, >>> but, >>> so far, due to using Emacsm settled to use org-mode instead. Haven't >>> tried >>> with >>> slides (yet), but there is Pandoc support for it. >>> >>> Therefore, I'd rather see Pillar support in Pandoc which would buy us >>> even >>> more >>> import/export capabilities for free instead of focusing on single formats >>> like >>> *.odt, *.epub etc. >>> >>> Pillar with 1st class support in Pandoc would, imho, improve status of >>> Pharo >>> itself making it along with Pillar exceelent tool for development as well >>> as >>> for all writing needs - articles, books, documentation, >>> slide-presentations. >>> >>> But it would be nice to make it more transparent where/how can one submit >>> feature request for Pillar? >>> >>> Fogbugs issue trakcer is certainly not the ideal place these days... >>> >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> Gour >>> >>> -- >>> Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities >>> he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no >>> one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment. >>> >>> >>> >>> >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Vitor Medina Cruz

I completely agree with Ben. As for Dimitris, I have some points: There numerous reason why this kind of thinking is fundamental flawed, if > not completely wrong > > 1) How you get people to run in this race ? > > 2) What makes you think that people participating in the race doing to get > first or even finish ? > > 3) How you are certain that those barriers are not the very reason people > participate ? > > The fundamental problem is that if you base your assumption that people > are motivated on avoidance of pain, this is a very popular argument by the > way, you going to be severely disapointed. From the very first fact that > there is a 90% chance that right now that you use almost 100% of your time > one of the worst software to be ever created. > > Microsoft Windows. > > Of course you can throw claims to me that peope use Windows because that > is whatâs popular and widely available, but then so is MacOS is by far the > easiest to use OS out there. When you pit Windows vs Macos a such taboo > subject , fuel to so many flame wars, there is one thing that both sides > agree on and that is that MacOS is far easier to use , perdiod. The rest of > the debate which OS is the best is up in the air and frankly not the point > of my argument. > I think you are missing one point here: people get used to Windows, using windows with all itâs quirks and nonsenses became strong reinforced habits for most people, and that is something REALLY hard change. The fact is , we love pain, we love barriers, we love doors that slam into > our face. We love challange. But only if we find it interesting. > See, I think thatâs not the point, the point is that people are very resistant to any change in their habits, so much thatâs usually better to short-circuit into their habits to make a change instead of trying to force a hard change on them. That is why I think Ben point of view is not flawed at all, on the contrary, removing barriers is a way to make Pharo seems more like what people are habituated, short-circuiting peoples habits into Pharo usage. Withing time, people better understanding of Pharo may trigger small, but incremental, changes to itâs habits to get the âA-ha!!!â moment where live code and all wonders of Pharo make sense. I frankly read very loosely the rest of you answer ( :) :P ), but I get you are not interested in making Pharo popular rather than get really interested, open minded people on borad so to make it even more amazing, but I also disagree here (in part :) ). There are lotâs of people who could do better for the community if the entrance were easier, more popularity could means more opportunity in job field and, in a more philosophical matter, a way to make the whole current programming field better. Of course, with more popularity comes disadvantages as well, some of which you already said, which can be addressed, but if this is price to pay I personally think it is worth it. On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 4:00 AM, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > That is a familiar path, but still an obstacle for people to get over in >> trying Pharo - i.e. its a barrier of entry. I've previously referred to >> this article by JoelOnSoftware, but to pull out a key part... "Think of >> these barriers as an obstacle course that people have to run before you can >> count them as your customers. If you start out with a field of 1000 >> runners, about half of them will trip on the tires; half of the survivors >> wonât be strong enough to jump the wall; half of those survivors will fall >> off the rope ladder into the mud, and so on, until only 1 or 2 people >> actually overcome all the hurdles. With 8 or 9 barriers, everybody will >> have one non-negotiable deal killer. This calculus means that eliminating >> barriers to switching is the most important thing you have to do if you >> want to take over an existing market, because eliminating just one barrier >> will likely double your sales. Eliminate two barriers, and youâll double >> your sales again." >> >> > > ****WARNING LONG POST AHEAD**** > > There numerous reason why this kind of thinking is fundamental flawed, if > not completely wrong > > 1) How you get people to run in this race ? > 2) What makes you think that people participating in the race doing to get > first or even finish ? > 3) How you are certain that those barriers are not the very reason people > participate ? > > The fundamental problem is that if you base your assumption that people > are motivated on avoidance of pain, this is a very popular argument by the > way, you going to be severely disapointed. From the very first fact that > there is a 90% chance that right now that you use almost 100% of your time > one of the worst software to be ever created. > > Microsoft Windows. > > Of course you can throw claims to me that peope use Windows because that > is what's popular and widely available, but then so is MacOS is by far the > easiest to use OS out there. When you pit Windows vs Macos a such taboo > subject , fuel to so many flame wars, there is one thing that both sides > agree on and that is that MacOS is far easier to use , perdiod. The rest of > the debate which OS is the best is up in the air and frankly not the point > of my argument. > > The fact is , we love pain, we love barriers, we love doors that slam into > our face. We love challange. But only if we find it interesting. > > Of course Windows is not the only example (C/C++ , Java , Web dev, > computer games and the list is just endless)of the machocistic nature of > human beings. I dont need to look far, my own story about how I started > coding is more than enough . I am going to ramble about my initiation to > the realm of coding , so feel free to ignore the rest of my post but what > the hell here we go. > > From an early age , no idea when, I was exposed to the idea of the > computer. Never used one before or saw on in person other than what I saw > in the TV I asked my father to get me one and he agreed on the ground that > I wont use it just to play games but to learn how to code. My father had no > idea what coding is, had no idea what technology is, to this day he hates > technology and he refuses to learn even how to close a window. None , > friend , relative or random stranger I knew used a computer. > > So I got this weird thing called computer and turned it on, of course > motivated to play games like any other kind in my age, I was 9 years old at > the time, december 1988. But I had a sense of honor even from that age so I > had to keep my promise. So I did and I was fascinated by it, to the degree > that I was coding as much I was playing games. Problem is that it was > mainly masochistic venture. I had one book and one book alone, none that > had any clue how to show how to turn this thing on and of course no > internet, no schools, no magazines I could afford to buy or even know where > to buy them . So in 3 years, I made nothing special, only tiny fragments of > code and I was still struggling with basic concept like looping. > > Yes, looping. > > But I already was doing things that a greek kid did not suppose to do and > I did not even fit the geek stereotype at the time (not that the term > existed at the time, I still does not exist in my language), I had tons of > friends, I was anything but shy , I was the craziest nosiest kid suffering > from the annoying syndrom of hyperactivity and with very lmited attention > span. > > I was the absolute worst candidate to learn how to code, yet I did . Sort > of. Then my father decided to send me, after me begging on my knees, on a > prrivate school, that just opened near our neighborhood for learning. At > the time time I only still had the same computer, Amstrad CPC 6128 and knew > the very basics of Locomotive Basic which was used also by the computer as > a bash like language for its OS. > > I went 3 years, the first year I did ok, an average student even though I > had by far the most experience than other kids we learned GWBASIC. The > second year I did terrible, we learned DBASE and the third we learned > CLIPPER and blow any other student completely away, I was the only to > graduate with 99.8% and our teacher was super strict on the matter of > grades. But I wanted more. > > So I went and learned C++ and assembly because why not and when I told my > teacher that, he was looking me with his eye wide open, took me quite a > lenghy discussion to convince him that this was true. > > The reason why the first year I did average was that it was too easy. I > was already familiar with Basic , sure I was struggling with basic concepts > when I started but under the wing of the teacher (he was a great teacher, > professional coder and highly skilled at helping you understand even the > most difficult concepts) and full access to multiple books in few months > became a walk in the park. The second year was a disaster, partly because > our teacher decided to hire a relative of his to teach us DBASE and the guy > was a moron wasting his time with telling jokes. The truth is that I did > not like and still dont like database coding. Clipper I fall in love with > it at the time because still a database orientated language but our teacher > tought us, his relative got sacked as soon as he learned that he sucked, > that happened one year after because none of the kids had the courage to go > tell him and it was probably a parent the told him and did so well I was > even offered to make a database for a considerable amount of money. Said > no. Again not interested. > > My story is nothing special, I heard it in slightly diffirent versions by > countless others in a similar situation however my point is not to brag, > because lets face it I was just merely learning languages and not doing any > serious coding , my point is that the drive behind it was the pain. Was the > obstacles. Was the challange. > > Pharo for me is also the same story. At the time I was coding in Python, > super easy, got the job done, had no intention learning another language > because why bother when they all look the same and they would have been > much less powerful than Python. I was super happy with Python and still is > one of my favorite language as you all know. Then I saw people on forums > rambling about this weird language called Lisp , I was interested, google a > tutorial , saw the parentheses , said "hell no!" and carried on coding in > python. Then even more people claiming that it was so amazing, that it can > cure cancer and make you super sexy. I always wanted to be super sexy so I > said, ok lets give this a serious try. So I bought a book called "Land of > Lisp" very fun to read, terrible teaching material, messy and all over the > place. Community was terrible too (Common Lisp), at least some people, > rude, snobs, evangelistic and plain stupid. A minority of people but still > enough to ruin your day.Then I was introduced to emacs, another super > painful experience, thoroughly enjoyed and one day I mentioned how cool it > would be if one could combine the simplicity of Lisp with emacs but via a > GUI IDE and without elisp which was hog slow. People immediately > recommended Squeak, I though they were messing with me because none would > pick such a ridiculous name for a language. Looked to me like a toy > language for kids and then it hit my face like a train. > > Pain, pain and more pain. > > But it was well worth, I was completely blown away from the elegance of > Smalltalk. > > The learning curve of Smalltalk and Lisp are plain insane. Made learningh > DOS Assembly a walk in the park in comparison. > > But frankly thats half of the fun. > > Many obstacles, many challanges. > > And there lies my point that an obstacle is a good thing when it becomes > an interesting challange. You have to have at least a degree of masochism > to learn how to code in any language. Of course the question is what makes > an interesting challange and welcome to the abyss that is called "human > brain". None knows and we are not anywhere close in finding out. > > What we know is that documentation is super important , whether you are a > masochist or not, you need it to progress. Problems is that documentation > is hard to create and maintain, again masochism required. So we should not > just worry about making it easier for people to reach documentation we > should make it easier for people to maintain it. Because even masochism has > its limits. Those limits are as far it is a pleasureable pain. > > So congratulations to anyone reading this long post , you already proven > my point. > > Thus, let embrace the pain of Pharo and the pain of smalltalk and instead > of trying to make it easy, boring and usual. Lets turn it to a challange, > lets turn it to a painful yet pleasureable experience > > I think to that extend we in a very good path, I think Pharo is definetly > a fun experience to use and learn. > > A huge plus also for Pharo is the community and how welcoming it is, we > take for granted but my experience with Python was not the best either. I > joined the IRC channel, other than having to endure the stupidity of "say > lol 3 times and you are banned" , too many wars over languages and how > superior Python is than anything else. Guido is god and blah blah blah... > No thanks. > > People here are open minded, still "religious" about Smaltalk but they > actually want to help , not to teach, actually help. > > I think we are a bit too obsessed on how to make Pharo popular, > Smalltalkers suffer from this insecurity of the "failure" of the "best > language of the world" not only to become popular but also to convince > coders that "is not a a relic of the past". > > But we are fine, documentation is doing grear, Pharo is improving rapidly > , the community is welcoming as ever. All we need is embrace our successes > and our failures, reject the hype, consider the crticism and accept it or > reject it and generally carry on doing what we all love. > > Improving Pharo. > > ;) >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Pillar (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by H. Hirzel

Interoperability with pandoc is desirable Some people want MSWord documents and they provide input in the form of MSWord documents. Or LibreOffice ODT. pandoc handles that well for a subset of MSWord options. pandoc allows you as well to write a custom output format -- in this case Pillar. E.g. conversion from MSWord docx to Pillar is possible. It would need somebody to look into the issue of doing some Lua scripting. pandoc has Lua embedded for output generation. --Hannes P.S. I will have some time later for Pillar issues (not Lua), but the document model and generation of slides. Still open issue on my list is rendering Pillar on Morphic, in particular slide. On 10/13/17, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Why exporting to latex, html and markdown is not enough for you ? > > On Fri, Oct 13, 2017 at 1:05 PM Gour <gour(a)atmarama.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, 11 Oct 2017 17:18:54 +0000 >> Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > Well there is a move towards Pillar for class and method commands so >> > who knows maybe we will have that soon enough ;) >> >> Let me say that I'm very happy seeing that Pillar is moving forward (e.g. >> addition of support for footnotes) as well as plan for the future (*.epub >> support) since I'm considering whether it could serve as single-source >> markup >> for all of one's writings? >> >> After migrating from Python-powered static-site-generator (to Hugo) and >> rst >> markup I was considering to use AsciiDoc(tor) markup for all my content, >> but, >> so far, due to using Emacsm settled to use org-mode instead. Haven't >> tried >> with >> slides (yet), but there is Pandoc support for it. >> >> Therefore, I'd rather see Pillar support in Pandoc which would buy us >> even >> more >> import/export capabilities for free instead of focusing on single formats >> like >> *.odt, *.epub etc. >> >> Pillar with 1st class support in Pandoc would, imho, improve status of >> Pharo >> itself making it along with Pillar exceelent tool for development as well >> as >> for all writing needs - articles, books, documentation, >> slide-presentations. >> >> But it would be nice to make it more transparent where/how can one submit >> feature request for Pillar? >> >> Fogbugs issue trakcer is certainly not the ideal place these days... >> >> >> Sincerely, >> Gour >> >> -- >> Everyone is forced to act helplessly according to the qualities >> he has acquired from the modes of material nature; therefore no >> one can refrain from doing something, not even for a moment. >> >> >> >> >

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk

by Andrew Glynn

I agree with you that difficulty is half the fun, assuming you're a developer - developers solve problems, so if there weren't any we'd be a bit out of luck.Â Â For myself I've somehow never, in a 26+ year career, worked on maintaining code. I've only ever written new code. in factÂ Â I usually wind up with the things nobody, me included, has a clue of how to do, tending to make them even more difficult.Â Â On a project last year the 'technical unknowns' could be boiled down from the 5 page document I was given to one word, 'everything', including what the customer (the government, unsurprisingly), actually meant by any of the terms used in the requirements, since even common networking terms like VPN mean something different to government employees, apparently, than to anyone else in the world. It's rewriting the same or incredibly similar rote code because we start from the same basic point on every project that gets on my nerves; writing new and often difficult code, or learning new and often difficult languages, even learning unfamiliar domain specific terminology, are the reasons I'm still a developer.Â Â Difficulty though ought to come with a bit of power.Â Â JavaScript can be extremely difficult, but when it's difficult and the result is that a page widget appears in the right place, it doesn't feel like much of an accomplishment.Â Â Electron apps can be difficult, though the difficulty isn't in writing them, but in building them and getting them to actually run, especially if you're supporting Mac as well as Windows. Unless I'm writing a VM (which I haven't done very much of at all) the difficulties with CLANG, SLANG, along with about a dozen other tools, just to build a simple application, doesn't feel like much of an accomplishment either. At least not to me, I guess it does to some people though.Â Â I have noticed a squeaky wheel effect: technologies that 'just work' get quickly forgotten, because there aren't 3 million people on slashdot or wherever asking questions about how to get them to work. JINI (now Apache River) is a good example (especially in Java, where not much 'just works'), when the new cars that automagically connect your cell phone and tablet to their own 4G were designed, they had to write JINI clients for C and whatever other languages they use, because that's what does all the automagic.Â Â But not many people even remember it exists. One thing I do disagree with you on is that people prefer Windows. It seems to me that Windows is more popular due to price, and maybe due to the relative ease of controlling access centrally, more than anything, and even given the lower prices on (at least as far as obvious specs go) equivalent machines, I can't think of anyone I know off the top of my head who would use Windows if they could afford a Mac, and everyone I know who can, does use one. Â I had to write a Mac app for Charles Schwab that would run on any home Mac (down to G4 based Macs with a half gig of RAM that could run at best OS X 10.5) with equivalent features to a Windows app that required 16GB RAM to load and 24GB to run decently, because the majority of the professional stock traders who use Windows all day at work have Macs at home (of course they can largely afford them). Â If I'm not developing or testing I admittedly most often use a Macbook myself.Â Â I do use Windows on my tablet, since it can run a full version of Win 10 x64 (not the useless RT version) and therefore nearly any Windows program.Â Â I won the tablet at HP at the xmas party though, and with a quad-core Atom CPU and 8GB RAM it's not really an average tablet. Even then, I only use it if stuck somewhere for a while with nothing to do.Â So I have to admit, if I'm not developing I don't enjoy difficulty much.Â Â Nor do most of the end users I know.Â I do know a few masochists who prefer Linux to Mac, most of whom don't run a UI.Â Â The few who do use MATE, which while being both ugly and lacking any notable capabilities, never mind applications, doesn't use much memory. Â Exactly why a third of a GB of RAM is relevant today I'm not sure, when both Atom and Sublime Text use more memory than Ubuntu, Kubuntu or OS X for that matter, but they seem to feel it's radically important.Â Â Sublime Text makes me think of Hegel's definition of The Sublime: "the night where all cows are black" âº. I'll use Linux if my Thinkpad is handier. It runs OEL with KDE, so it's not difficult (unless you want anything by Adobe, lol), and it's pretty quick. Though ironically the Macbook is still quicker, though it has half the RAM and an i7 that's 2 generations older.Â Â I visited a friend at the IBM lab I used to work at a few months ago, and since they know me pretty well at security, I had no problem getting a visitor badge.Â Â Walking through the area where they write among other things, DB2 UDB, InfoSphere, WebSphere and associated products, and all of ibm.com I glanced in the cubicles as I went to my friend's desk, and the majority of the developers were using Macbooks. The only people with Thinkpads were managers.Â Â So maybe developers like difficulty, but not quite as much with things that are supposed to be already developed.Â Â It could just be easier to give them Macbooks than to try to get security to let them have local admin rights on Windows ... Best quote I've seen on Windows, particularly given the source:Â "With luck, this will start Windows, and a dialogue box will appear and tell you the default drive onto which IADS will be installed.Â Â If Windows doesn't start up, you could always try launching Windows manually."Â - IADS Manual, U.S. Army. Â Since IADS requires Windows 7 at minimum, exactly how you 'launch it manually' is beyond me, but then again I'm not in the military, and they seem to be able to write software in ADA (software that runs, even).Â Â Although the Army writes IADS, it's used by virtually every government department, not only in the U.S. but in Canada as well - it's AFAIK the only open source, free, true WYSIWYG SGML editor, and given FrameMaker is $999 a license, free becomes relevant when you have a lot of employees. It has to have the worst name of any software in the world, excepting maybe Eclipse VIATRA. cheersAndrew GlynnÂ Â Â -----Original Message----- Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 07:00:46 +0000Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Behold Pharo: The Modern SmalltalkTo: Any question about pharo is welcome <pha ro-users(a)lists.pharo.org>Reply-to: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org>From: Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios@gmail .com> > That is a familiar path, but still an obstacle for people to get over > in trying Pharo - i.e. its a barrier of entry.Â I've previously > referred to this article by JoelOnSoftware, but to pull out a key > part... "Think of these barriers as an obstacle course that people > have to run before you can count them as your customers. If you start > out with a field of 1000 runners, about half of them will trip on the > tires; half of the survivors wonât be strong enough to jump the wall; > half of those survivors will fall off the rope ladder into the mud, > and so on, until only 1 or 2 people actually overcome all the > hurdles. With 8 or 9 barriers, everybody will have one non-negotiable > deal killer.Â This calculus means that eliminating barriers to > switching is the most important thing you have to do if you want to > take over an existing market, because eliminating just one barrier > will likely double your sales. Eliminate two barriers, and youâll > double your sales again." > Â ****WARNING LONG POST AHEAD****Â There numerous reason why this kind of thinking is fundamental flawed, if not completely wrong 1) How you get people to run in this race ? 2) What makes you think that people participating in the race doing to get first or even finish ? 3) How you are certain that those barriers are not the very reason people participate ? The fundamental problem is that if you base your assumption that people are motivated on avoidance of pain, this is a very popular argument by the way, you going to be severely disapointed. From the very first fact that there is a 90% chance that right now that you use almost 100% of your time one of the worst software to be ever created.Â Microsoft Windows.Â Of course you can throw claims to me that peope use Windows because that is what's popular and widely available, but then so is MacOS is by far the easiest to use OS out there. When you pit Windows vs Macos a such taboo subject , fuel to so many flame wars, there is one thing that both sides agree on and that is that MacOS is far easier to use , perdiod. The rest of the debate which OS is the best is up in the air and frankly not the point of my argument.Â The fact is , we love pain, we love barriers, we love doors that slam into our face. We love challange. But only if we find it interesting.Â Of course Windows is not the only exampleÂ Â (C/C++ , Java , Web dev, computer games and the list is just endless)of the machocistic nature of human beings. I dont need to look far, my own story about how I started coding is more than enough . I am going to ramble about my initiation to the realm of coding , so feel free to ignore the rest of my post but what the hell here we go.Â >From an early age , no idea when, I was exposed to the idea of the computer. Never used one before or saw on in person other than what I saw in the TV I asked my father to get me one and he agreed on the ground that I wont use it just to play games but to learn how to code. My father had no idea what coding is, had no idea what technology is, to this day he hates technology and he refuses to learn even how to close a window. None , friend , relative or random stranger I knew used a computer. So I got this weird thing called computer and turned it on, of course motivated to play games like any other kind in my age, I was 9 years old at the time, december 1988. But I had a sense of honor even from that age so I had to keep my promise. So I did and I was fascinated by it, to the degree that I was coding as much I was playing games. Problem is that it was mainly masochistic venture. I had one book and one book alone, none that had any clue how to show how to turn this thing on and of course no internet, no schools, no magazines I could afford to buy or even know where to buy them . So in 3 years, I made nothing special, only tiny fragments of code and I was still struggling with basic concept like looping. Yes, looping. Â But I already was doing things that a greek kid did not suppose to do and I did not even fit the geek stereotype at the time (not that the term existed at the time, I still does not exist in my language), I had tons of friends, I was anything but shy , I was the craziest nosiest kid suffering from the annoying syndrom of hyperactivity and with very lmited attention span.Â I was the absolute worst candidate to learn how to code, yet I did . Sort of. Then my father decided to send me, after me begging on my knees, on a prrivate school, that just opened near our neighborhood for learning. At the time time I only still had the same computer, Amstrad CPC 6128 and knew the very basics of Locomotive Basic which was used also by the computer as a bash like language for its OS.Â I went 3 years, the first year I did ok, an average student even though I had by far the most experience than other kids we learned GWBASIC. The second year I did terrible, we learned DBASE and the third we learned CLIPPER and blow any other student completely away, I was the only to graduate with 99.8% and our teacher was super strict on the matter of grades. But I wanted more.Â So I went and learned C++ and assembly because why not and when I told my teacher that, he was looking me with his eye wide open, took me quite a lenghy discussion to convince him that this was true.Â The reason why the first year I did average was that it was too easy. I was already familiar with Basic , sure I was struggling with basic concepts when I started butÂ Â under the wing of the teacher (he was a great teacher, professional coder and highly skilled at helping you understand even the most difficult concepts) and full access to multiple books in few months became a walk in the park. The second year was a disaster, partly because our teacher decided to hire a relative of his to teach us DBASE and the guy was a moron wasting his time with telling jokes. The truth is that I did not like and still dont like database coding. Clipper I fall in love with it at the time because still a database orientated language but our teacher tought us, his relative got sacked as soon as he learned that he sucked, that happened one year after because none of the kids had the courage to go tell him and it was probably a parent the told him and did so well I was even offered to make a database for a considerable amount of money. Said no. Again not interested.Â My story is nothing special, I heard it in slightly diffirent versions by countless others in a similar situation however my point isÂ not to brag, because lets face it I was just merely learning languages and not doing any serious coding , my point is that the drive behind it was the pain. Was the obstacles. Was the challange.Â Pharo for me is also the same story. At the time I was coding in Python, super easy, got the job done, had no intention learning another language because why bother when they all look the same and they would have been much less powerful than Python. I was super happy with Python and still is one of my favorite language as you all know. Then I saw people on forums rambling about this weird language called Lisp , I was interested, google a tutorial , saw the parentheses , said "hell no!" and carried on coding in python. Then even more people claiming that it was so amazing, that it can cure cancer and make you super sexy. I always wanted to be super sexy so I said, ok lets give this a serious try. So I bought a book called "Land of Lisp" very fun to read, terrible teaching material, messy and all over the place. Community was terrible too (Common Lisp), at least some people, rude, snobs, evangelistic and plain stupid. A minority of people but still enough to ruin your day.Then I was introduced to emacs, another super painful experience, thoroughly enjoyed and one day I mentioned how cool it would be if one could combine the simplicity of Lisp with emacs but via a GUI IDE and without elisp which was hog slow. People immediately recommended Squeak, I though they were messing with me because none would pick such a ridiculous name for a language. Looked to me like a toy language for kids and then it hit my face like a train.Â Pain, pain and more pain.Â But it was well worth, I was completely blown away from the elegance of Smalltalk. The learning curve of Smalltalk and Lisp are plain insane. Made learningh DOS Assembly a walk in the park in comparison.Â But frankly thats half of the fun.Â Many obstacles, many challanges.Â And there lies my point that an obstacle is a good thing when it becomes an interesting challange. You have to have at least a degree of masochism to learn how to code in any language. Of course the question is what makes an interesting challange and welcome to the abyss that is called "human brain". None knows and we are not anywhere close in finding out.Â What we know is that documentation is super important , whether you are a masochist or not, you need it to progress. Problems is that documentation is hard to create and maintain, again masochism required. So we should not just worry about making it easier for people to reach documentation we should make it easier for people to maintain it. Because even masochism has its limits. Those limits are as far it is a pleasureable pain.Â So congratulations to anyone reading this long post , you already proven my point. Thus, let embrace the pain of Pharo and the pain of smalltalk and instead of trying to make it easy, boring and usual. Lets turn it to a challange, lets turn it to a painful yet pleasureable experienceÂ I think to that extend we in a very good path, I think Pharo is definetly a fun experience to use and learn.Â A huge plus also for Pharo is the community and how welcoming it is, we take for granted but my experience with Python was not the best either. I joined the IRC channel, other than having to endure the stupidity of "say lol 3 times and you are banned" , too many wars over languages and how superior Python is than anything else. Guido is god and blah blah blah... No thanks.Â People here are open minded, still "religious" about Smaltalk but they actually want to help , not to teach, actually help.Â I think we are a bit too obsessed on how to make Pharo popular, Smalltalkers suffer from this insecurity of the "failure" of the "best language of the world" not only to become popular but also to convince coders that "is not a a relic of the past".Â Â But we are fine, documentation is doing grear, Pharo is improving rapidly , the community is welcoming as ever. All we need is embrace our successes and our failures, reject the hype, consider the crticism and accept it or reject it and generally carry on doing what we all love.Â Improving Pharo.Â ;)

Oct. 13, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Esteban A. Maringolo

2017-10-13 5:55 GMT-03:00 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: > >> Am 13.10.2017 um 10:24 schrieb stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl>: >> >> On 13-10-17 09:55, Thierry Goubier wrote: >>> Because namespaces, by essence, come with serious issues. I won't take >>> someone seriously on namespaces until he can cite those faithfully. >> >> Let's start with the misconception that namespaces are about modularisation >> > +1 +1 to this as well. Having modularization is like having security, very hard to add them later if you didn't include it in the original design. I'm using VisualWorks these days, and I find its namespaces something more of a hassle than a real use. If we could name Classes with a dot, that could solve most of what namespaces are used for in practice: avoiding name colissions. That's why most of the popular frameworks have prefixes like Zn, WA, RB, and so on and so forth. But now I'm used to prefixes, I don't need them. :) Modularity is a different beast, if you look at how some modules work in JS, like AMD, you see that in practice they avoid collisions by importin what they need from a module, and assign it to a "namespace" (it is not, but works as such), so they get modules first, and namespacing later. Regards, Esteban.

Oct. 13, 2017