- Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

by Ben Coman

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 3:04 PM, Paulo R. Dellani <dellani(a)pobox.com> wrote: > Dear all, > > after using Smalltalk for several years I developed a passion for the > language (how not to?), and Pharo is just so great to develop with. > So thank you guys for keeping this wonderful project running. > > Unfortunately, it is not easy to always point out why Smalltalk > should be employed as "main development language" in a team > or for a project. In the last discussion of this sort I was confronted > with the question "where are we going to get new smalltalk > developers if our startup grows or if you go?". Well, I had no > good answer to that. What would have you answered? > > Cheers, > > Paulo > > > When Smalltalk comes up on reddit, news.ycombinator, etc, I often see comments "Used Smalltalk 10 years ago, loved it, but not in my day job for years ..." The guess the lack of a good business oriented OSS Smalltalk years ago may be to blame. Only supposition, but with the long history of Smalltalker, the pool to draw from may be greater than first apparent. The main problem may be that these people are not searching for Smalltalk jobs due to the perceived availability of jobs. There would obviously be some lag, but for longer term planning, talk to your local education providers about introducing Smalltalk as the "best" environment for teaching OO, and then take the talented students from there. Consider contacting the academic partners here... http://consortium.pharo.org/ Another approach depending on the project structure might be to "just" prototype in Smalltalk (because its highly productive to explore a domain with its built in data persistence) and per Fred Brooks plan to throw it away to cleanly implement in a mainstream language once you "know" what needs to be done. I remember seeing one case reported here that the prototype worked so well that the client didn't bother with the second step. cheers -ben

Oct. 19, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Namespaces (was Re: Behold Pharo: The Modern Smalltalk)

by Jimmie Houchin

I watched this video a year ago and was intrigued. I have not thought about it deeply and do not know consequences of this model. However, Gilad is a smart man who has thought deeply about these things and has experienced consequences as a language designer. But it does sound interesting and I wonder if it would potentially be a solution to the namespace or modularity problems. https://youtu.be/pM0Hz4pFDZM He is talking about Newspeak in 2016 and what I refer to is its use of Nested Classes. No Global Namespace Â Â Â No Global Variables Â Â Â No Pool Variables Â Â Â No Class Variables Â Â Â No Class Instance Variables I have no idea if it would work for Pharo or what would be involved in implementing such. Or even if the community or leaders would even care to explore that direction. I have not seen it discussed here. Just wanted to toss his discussion of these ideas into the arena of ideas for Pharo. Jimmie On 10/13/2017 07:53 AM, Esteban A. Maringolo wrote: > 2017-10-13 5:55 GMT-03:00 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name>: >>> Am 13.10.2017 um 10:24 schrieb stephan <stephan(a)stack.nl>: >>> >>> On 13-10-17 09:55, Thierry Goubier wrote: >>>> Because namespaces, by essence, come with serious issues. I won't take >>>> someone seriously on namespaces until he can cite those faithfully. >>> Let's start with the misconception that namespaces are about modularisation >>> >> +1 > +1 to this as well. > > Having modularization is like having security, very hard to add them > later if you didn't include it in the original design. > > I'm using VisualWorks these days, and I find its namespaces something > more of a hassle than a real use. > > If we could name Classes with a dot, that could solve most of what > namespaces are used for in practice: avoiding name colissions. > That's why most of the popular frameworks have prefixes like Zn, WA, > RB, and so on and so forth. But now I'm used to prefixes, I don't need > them. :) > > Modularity is a different beast, if you look at how some modules work > in JS, like AMD, you see that in practice they avoid collisions by > importin what they need from a module, and assign it to a "namespace" > (it is not, but works as such), so they get modules first, and > namespacing later. > > Regards, > > Esteban. >

Oct. 19, 2017

Anoying bug fond in Artefact running in Windows 10

by casimiro.barreto＠gmail.com

When you insert a jpeg from a file, for some reason the file descriptor (stream) is kept open (at least in the Windows end of things). Then, if a second page is to be generated, the following error is shown: 'MessageNotUnderstood: receiver of "reset" is nil PDFJpegElement>>stream: JPEGReadWriter aJPEGReadWriter JPEGReadWriter(ImageReadWriter)>>on: nil Sample code: aPage := PDFPage new. imageStream := FileStream fileNamed: 'lsi-tec.jpg'. aPage add: ((PDFJpegElement fromStream: imageStream) from: 15 mm @ 20 mm; dimension: 40 mm @ 40 mm). imageStream close. Generated report is in annex The only way to recover is to close pharo, start it again. Then the file descriptor (stream) is released and it is possible to go on. Has anyone faced this problem? How to solve it? Best regards, Casimiro Barreto

Oct. 19, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

by Jimmie Houchin

In addition to the excellent replies you have already received I would like to offer this from Stack Overflow. In their 2017 Developer Survey,Â Smalltalk was the second most loved language at 67% of developers surveyed. This is a regular occurrence. Now if you look at the rest of the survey you will see that these are not people using Smalltalk in their job. Smalltalk doesn't appear elsewhere in the survey. It isn't on the radar. However, developers love Smalltalk. Should a shop be open minded enough to use Smalltalk, I do not think it would be difficult to find people who would love to have that opportunity. A good developer can become proficient at Smalltalk in a reasonable amount of time. In addition to the natural virtues of Smalltalk. You also have wonderful communities eager and ready to help people join the family and become productive. The Pharo and Squeak mailing lists are very friendly, with plenty of extremely knowledgeable programmers ready to help. The other nice thing about Smalltalk is that it has history. It is not a fad. It is not an immature child. Many Smalltalkers have more years experience in Smalltalk than some of the creators of other languages have birthdays. There is a vast amount of knowledge and experience in this community that doesn't exist in most places. Because of this environment, an experienced programmer can receive wisdom and understanding and become a better programmer. Do not underestimate the value of gray beard Smalltalkers. A person can read the survey and come away thinking that Smalltalk is irrelevant. It is very relevant. It just isn't as visible as other languages clamoring for the spotlight. It is mature. It doesn't care to be the cool kid. Yes, OSS Smalltalks have some weaknesses that are actively being worked on. We haven't arrived. But we are well on the journey. And to quote our favorite prophet Alan Kay, "The best way to predict the future is to invent it." Join us. Help invent the future. Use Pharo to invent the future you want. There are people out there who want to be a part of this. But they have to pay the bills. Help more people pay the bills with Smalltalk. :) Jimmie On 10/19/2017 02:04 AM, Paulo R. Dellani wrote: > Dear all, > > after using Smalltalk for several years I developed a passion for the > language (how not to?), and Pharo is just so great to develop with. > So thank you guys for keeping this wonderful project running. > > Unfortunately, it is not easy to always point out why Smalltalk > should be employed as "main development language" in a team > or for a project. In the last discussion of this sort I was confronted > with the question "where are we going to get new smalltalk > developers if our startup grows or if you go?". Well, I had no > good answer to that. What would have you answered? > > Cheers, > > Paulo > >

Oct. 19, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] [Moose-dev] Cannot update GLMTabulator containing list with Separators

by Andrei Chis

Hi, Indeed, seems that #resetElements is missing in GLMFastListOutlineDataSource. I added in in the latest version of Moose/FastTable for Pharo 6.1. Cheers, Andrei On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 12:05 PM, Peter UhnÃ¡k <i.uhnak(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > apparently it is not possible to update a GLMTabulator if it contains a > list pane with separators. Tested in P6 & P7. > > ``` > data := { { #one. #two. #three } asOrderedCollection. { #alpha. #beta } > asOrderedCollection } asOrderedCollection. > > browser := GLMTabulator new. > > browser column: #list; column: #actions. > > browser transmit to: #list; andShow: [ :a | > a fastList > withSeparators > ]. > > browser transmit to: #actions; andShow: [ :a | > a actionList > act: [ :actionList | data last add: #dynamic. browser update ] entitled: > 'Add Item'; > act: [ :actionList | data last remove: #dynamic ifAbsent: [ ]. browser > update ] entitled: 'Remove Item'. > ]. > > browser openOn: data. > ``` > > [image: Inline image 1] > > Thanks, > Peter > > _______________________________________________ > Moose-dev mailing list > Moose-dev(a)list.inf.unibe.ch > https://www.list.inf.unibe.ch/listinfo/moose-dev > >

Oct. 19, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

by Stephane Ducasse

This is super easy. - You ask here, - Second then you try to grab the best open-minded guys you know and they will use the super cool mooc and learn Pharo in a week or two. You can tell them that we are not teaching Pharo and still students good in Java learn it before their internships. For a good dev it takes really no time to catch up. Stef On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 9:04 AM, Paulo R. Dellani <dellani(a)pobox.com> wrote: > Dear all, > > after using Smalltalk for several years I developed a passion for the > language (how not to?), and Pharo is just so great to develop with. > So thank you guys for keeping this wonderful project running. > > Unfortunately, it is not easy to always point out why Smalltalk > should be employed as "main development language" in a team > or for a project. In the last discussion of this sort I was confronted > with the question "where are we going to get new smalltalk > developers if our startup grows or if you go?". Well, I had no > good answer to that. What would have you answered? > > Cheers, > > Paulo > >

Oct. 19, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

by Tim Mackinnon

I'm sure this comes up with many less main stream languages - I think there is a strong argument (particularly if we get the GitHub piece operating smoothly) that the language is so simple that what you creating is domain understanding (not language/tools prowess). Any good developer (particularly a Ruby, Groovy, JS, Objective C or even Python) dev will find Smalltalk a doddle. The complexity is actually in the domain. We also have a vibrant and active community that has been around a long time and is willing to help as well as lots of free online training materials. Put another way - you can use a language like Java but if you left, the complexity of build and deployment and understanding the domain is a huge hurdle even though it's s popular language. I've dipped in and out of Smalltalk throughout my career and a few years ago came back after 10+ years (so had basically forgotten most of it) and was stunned that I was productive in that team after 1 day once they showed me how to inspect items in the UI and navigate to tests. I've never encountered that on a project before. Tim Sent from my iPhone > On 19 Oct 2017, at 08:04, Paulo R. Dellani <dellani(a)pobox.com> wrote: > > Dear all, > > after using Smalltalk for several years I developed a passion for the > language (how not to?), and Pharo is just so great to develop with. > So thank you guys for keeping this wonderful project running. > > Unfortunately, it is not easy to always point out why Smalltalk > should be employed as "main development language" in a team > or for a project. In the last discussion of this sort I was confronted > with the question "where are we going to get new smalltalk > developers if our startup grows or if you go?". Well, I had no > good answer to that. What would have you answered? > > Cheers, > > Paulo > >

Oct. 19, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

by Dimitris Chloupis

I would have followed the Python approach. When Guido created Python , it did not try to convince his co-workers about how superior it was compared to other languages. At the time he did not intend to use it even as programming language. That worked to his advantage. Instead it used it for small tasks, usually tiny command line utilities that none would notice. But some did notice and expressed interest , they tried Python for small tiny tasks again mainly command line utilities. The co workers came back with suggestions how to improve it and the rest as they say itâs history. Any project has cracks that you can squeeze another language , the curious will the express interest and wonder âwhat this Pharo is ?â. I think that probably the best way to promote a language instead of trying to convince them how great it is. When language is used for such small tasks none will ask where they will find Smalltalk devs because itâs easy to learn any language for very simple tasks. Humans are curious by nature and they love a nice mystery. You donât have to convert an entire project to Pharo, the import thing is to ignite interest. Or as the saying goes âactions speak louder than wordsâ ;) On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 at 10:05, Paulo R. Dellani <dellani(a)pobox.com> wrote: > Dear all, > > after using Smalltalk for several years I developed a passion for the > language (how not to?), and Pharo is just so great to develop with. > So thank you guys for keeping this wonderful project running. > > Unfortunately, it is not easy to always point out why Smalltalk > should be employed as "main development language" in a team > or for a project. In the last discussion of this sort I was confronted > with the question "where are we going to get new smalltalk > developers if our startup grows or if you go?". Well, I had no > good answer to that. What would have you answered? > > Cheers, > > Paulo > > >

Oct. 19, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

by itlists＠schrievkrom.de

Hello Paulo, its a problem to get Smalltalkers - simple as it is. I had contacts with Smalltalkers who wanted to do Smalltalk-"only" jobs - thats impossible to guarantee in a smaller company and perhaps a mind I would not expect from Smalltalker. And the point about "Main Development Language" ... well, the other developers have also their "beloved" language and it would be a much better idea to put their "loved" together with your "loved" language. There are *very* good reason out there to write Windows FAT-Clients in .NET languages or even Mac/Linux/Windows Clients with Xamarin/Microsoft tools or even Java-world languages and HTML-Clients with some good JS-libraries. You have to have very good reasons (and this is NOT productivity) to argue against this and tell the other developers, that you develop superior solutions just because you are doing Smalltalk. This may be true for very specific libraries (and thats not only Roassal) - not available in other systems - but in the normal case, they will simply win (because of the huge amount software written in other languages). The only Smalltalk technology I found out to be worthwhile fighting for (because other are not able to offer a similar solution) today is an object oriented database (e.g. Gemstone/S). Perhaps the Smalltalk community should concentrate on the idea to make their technology open/accessable for other languages in an easy way. This is especially true for database vendors. Database vendors offering Java, C# and python object support and Smalltalk as an integrated script language - that could be a very good argument and a place where Smalltalk can survive. So, the answer is: don't depend on the language, look for developers working with more than one language and insert Smalltalk technology where you *really* get benefit. And the area where Smalltalk is so much better is getting smaller and smaller these days. Marten Am 19.10.2017 um 09:04 schrieb Paulo R. Dellani: > Dear all, > > after using Smalltalk for several years I developed a passion for the > language (how not to?), and Pharo is just so great to develop with. > So thank you guys for keeping this wonderful project running. > > Unfortunately, it is not easy to always point out why Smalltalk > should be employed as "main development language" in a team > or for a project. In the last discussion of this sort I was confronted > with the question "where are we going to get new smalltalk > developers if our startup grows or if you go?". Well, I had no > good answer to that. What would have you answered? > > Cheers, > > Paulo > > -- Marten Feldtmann

Oct. 19, 2017

Re: [Pharo-users] Smalltalk Argument

by Davorin Rusevljan

One way to address this issue is to factor in your development grooming of young Smalltalk developers, which can act as pool of potential full developers for your project. If you can add some of your domain specific issues to their grooming, you could increase your project HR safety quite a lot. Davorin Rusevljan On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 9:04 AM, Paulo R. Dellani <dellani(a)pobox.com> wrote: > Dear all, > > after using Smalltalk for several years I developed a passion for the > language (how not to?), and Pharo is just so great to develop with. > So thank you guys for keeping this wonderful project running. > > Unfortunately, it is not easy to always point out why Smalltalk > should be employed as "main development language" in a team > or for a project. In the last discussion of this sort I was confronted > with the question "where are we going to get new smalltalk > developers if our startup grows or if you go?". Well, I had no > good answer to that. What would have you answered? > > Cheers, > > Paulo > > >

Oct. 19, 2017