- Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Esteban Lorenzano

> On 13 Apr 2018, at 10:25, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > > On 13 April 2018 at 13:53, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>> wrote: > Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I really don't know where we're heading. > > Do we really need 8 delay schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, DelayMillisecondScheduler, DelayNullScheduler, DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ? > > This should have been cleaned up a while ago. Thanks for the bump. I'll get to it. > However note, that half of those have not more than two methods, so are not contributing much to the size of the Image. I didnât know. Thanks :) > > Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. > > I guess you are looking for... > https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/R… <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/R…> > > > cheers -ben > > >

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Esteban Lorenzano

Hi, > On 13 Apr 2018, at 07:53, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > > > From: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> > Subject: Where do we go now ? > Date: 13 April 2018 at 07:53:46 CEST > To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > Reply-To: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> > > > Hello guys, > > Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I really don't know where we're heading. > > When Pharo started, the goal was to depart from Squeak and do a *major clean up* of all the code, especially Morphic. The promise of a new, clean & lean Smalltalk attracted a lot of people. And then... > > I'm looking at the Pharo 7.0 image right now and I just don't get where we're heading. Every Pharo release gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger. I don't mind the environment getting bigger if it adds functionalities or new tools but that's not quite the case here. LOTS of stuff is just duplicated. > > Do we really need 2 code completion classes (NECController, NOCController) ? Do we really need 2 system browsers (Nautilus, Calypso)? Do we really need 2 compilers (OpalCompiler, Compiler) ? Do we really need 8 delay schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, DelayMillisecondScheduler, DelayNullScheduler, DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ? Do we really need 2 inspectors (GTInspector, EyeInspector) ? Do we really need 2 workspaces (GTPlayground, Workspace) ? Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera. I could go on, and on, and onâ¦ Pharo 7.0 is a development version. Before is releases most duplicated things you mention here will be gone: - Nautilus - Compiler - EyeInspector Workspace could be gone but we need a fallback in case the other more potent tools fail. Schedulers are still necessary. > > Pharo 5.1 had 5885 classes. Pharo 6.1 had 6481 classes. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 7612 classes. Can you see a trend? > > Pharo 5.1 had 416 preference settings. Pharo 6.1 had 494 preference settings. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 662 preference settings. Can you see a trend? > > Pharo 5.1 had a 27.44 MB image. Pharo 6.1 had a 35.18 MB image. Pharo 7.0 alpha has a 47.97 MB image. Can you see a trend? Pharo 5.1 didnât have : - GTTools - Iceberg - Epicea - and many others. > > Add to that the fact that Pharo is a nightmare when you want to port code. Just with the 7.0 release, 61 classes will be deprecated (and lots more to come if you search for the string "deprecated" into the code, most of the time hidden in the comments of the soon-to-be-deprecated-in-Pharo-8-I-guess classes). If you do not want we to remove classes, how do you want we to go âsmaller" and cleaner? > You have code that deals with sockets, should you use the old Socket classes or convert everything to Zodiac? And why do we keep both "frameworks" in the image ? Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with "old socket classes" a looooooong time ago anyway! Zodiac relies on Sockets, there is not duplication there. > You have code that deals with dependencies, should you use the old dependents mechanism or convert everything to announcements? you got me here. but removing takes timeâ¦ you are free to contribute with fixes :) > > UI speaking, what framework should anyone use ? Athens? Something else? yes, I think Athens should not be part of the image but a loadable package. > > You have code that deals with streams, should you use the old stream classes or convert everything to Zinc ? And why do we keep both "frameworks" in the image ? Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with the old stream classes a looooooong time ago anyway! again, you are mixing pearls and apples here. (and btw, there was a HUGE refactor of streams on P7) > So what's the plan? For instance, should I keep using the Nautilus Browser or I should switch to the Calypso browser and get used to it because Nautilus will be deprecated? Or should I just don't care because a third system browser will be added in Pharo 8 just because "it's cool, let's add this one too!â ? The plan is continue improving slowly but steadyâ¦ things takes time. > Couldn't we just decide on what's "official" and what's a goodie or an external optional tool/package/framework the same way all other Smalltalks do? If you say Calypso is the official & supported browser, fine! Then just get Nautilus out of the image, create a nice loadable package for it and if someone prefers Nautilus, they'll just have to load it into the image, the same way VW has a gazillion optional tools/packages/frameworks you can load from a parcel! > > Whenever I get asked a simple question by a newbie like "Oh, which system browser should I use?", quite frankly, I don't know what to answer. Did we include Calypso to deprecate Nautilus later? Is Calypso just a proof of concept? Is it just an optional tool? What about all those delay schedulers? You should read this list with more attention. We told at least 10 times Nautilus is going to be removed. We told it in presentations. We told it in tech talks. I donât know how else we could tell it. Maybe a HUGE banner in our site? âHEY YOU, READER: NAUTILUS WILL BE REMOVED!" > "I loaded this code from SqueakSource and it just doesn't work". Should I help the guy to fix it or just tell him to convert all the code to the corresponding framework in Pharo? if there is a corresponding framework yes. Problem is that people tends to believe a package from squeaksource not loading in P7 is our fault and not the responsibility of the package maintainer (or the one wanting to use it). > > Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. Perhaps a little bit of reading? We told it, several times. You cannot take an alpha version and expect production quality. And you cannot expect that things happens magically: engineering takes a lot of time and efforts and we do our best with the resources we have as a community. This is an open source project. With perks and no so muchâ¦ but the way to change things is contributing. And just to be clear: The goal of Pharo was never to be SMALL. The goal is to do a Smalltalk that is at the same time: - Clean (That DOES NOT MEANS SMALL!) - Modern - Fitting for business Iâm sorry for counter-rant your rant, but while there are somethings were you are right, I find the tone of your commentary not very constructive. cheers! Esteban > > > ----------------- > BenoÃ®t St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Twitter: @BenLeChialeux > Pinterest: benoitstjean > Instagram: Chef_Benito > IRC: lamneth > Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com > "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) > >

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Ben Coman

On 13 April 2018 at 13:53, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users < pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I > really don't know where we're heading. > > Do we really need 8 delay schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, > DelayMillisecondScheduler, DelayNullScheduler, > DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, > DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, > DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ? > This should have been cleaned up a while ago. Thanks for the bump. I'll get to it. However note, that half of those have not more than two methods, so are not contributing much to the size of the Image. > Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's > the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. > I guess you are looking for... https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-workingRoadmaps/blob/master/Pharo7/R… cheers -ben

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by phil＠highoctane.be

It is true that there are many things in there. New tools have to be finished before the old ones can be removed (there was a time where refactorings were not in Calypso). But for a real project, one is settling for a version and a toolset. I am not really keen to migrate Pharo projects from one version to another and some deprecations seems rather gratuitous sometimes. The world also moves forward and it shows in the image. I think that Iceberg has swallowed a lot of bandwidth and as a result other elements are in need of more love. Pharo7 is unreleased yet. Some say something is great by version 10. 3 versions to go. I consider Pharo 7 as a great piece of kit but unusable for my current work. There are many new things to learn in there. When is too much too much? Also, simplifications are breaking things in unexpected ways (like the #atEnd thing). I am glad 6.1 gets backports and new releases for sure. Phil On Fri, Apr 13, 2018, 07:53 Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users < pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > Hello guys, > > Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I > really don't know where we're heading. > > When Pharo started, the goal was to depart from Squeak and do a *major > clean up* of all the code, especially Morphic. The promise of a new, clean > & lean Smalltalk attracted a lot of people. And then... > > I'm looking at the Pharo 7.0 image right now and I just don't get where > we're heading. Every Pharo release gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger. I > don't mind the environment getting bigger if it adds functionalities or new > tools but that's not quite the case here. LOTS of stuff is just duplicated. > > Do we really need 2 code completion classes (NECController, NOCController) > ? Do we really need 2 system browsers (Nautilus, Calypso)? Do we really > need 2 compilers (OpalCompiler, Compiler) ? Do we really need 8 delay > schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, DelayMillisecondScheduler, > DelayNullScheduler, DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, > DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, > DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ? Do we really need 2 inspectors > (GTInspector, EyeInspector) ? Do we really need 2 workspaces > (GTPlayground, Workspace) ? Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera. I could go > on, and on, and on... > > Pharo 5.1 had 5885 classes. Pharo 6.1 had 6481 classes. Pharo 7.0 alpha > has 7612 classes. Can you see a trend? > > Pharo 5.1 had 416 preference settings. Pharo 6.1 had 494 preference > settings. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 662 preference settings. Can you see a trend? > > Pharo 5.1 had a 27.44 MB image. Pharo 6.1 had a 35.18 MB image. Pharo 7.0 > alpha has a 47.97 MB image. Can you see a trend? > > Add to that the fact that Pharo is a nightmare when you want to port > code. Just with the 7.0 release, 61 classes will be deprecated (and lots > more to come if you search for the string "deprecated" into the code, most > of the time hidden in the comments of the > soon-to-be-deprecated-in-Pharo-8-I-guess classes). > > You have code that deals with sockets, should you use the old Socket > classes or convert everything to Zodiac? And why do we keep both > "frameworks" in the image ? Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with > "old socket classes" a looooooong time ago anyway! > > You have code that deals with dependencies, should you use the old > dependents mechanism or convert everything to announcements? > > UI speaking, what framework should anyone use ? Athens? Something else? > > You have code that deals with streams, should you use the old stream > classes or convert everything to Zinc ? And why do we keep both > "frameworks" in the image ? Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with the > old stream classes a looooooong time ago anyway! > > So what's the plan? For instance, should I keep using the Nautilus > Browser or I should switch to the Calypso browser and get used to it > because Nautilus will be deprecated? Or should I just don't care because a > third system browser will be added in Pharo 8 just because "it's cool, > let's add this one too!" ? > > Couldn't we just decide on what's "official" and what's a goodie or an > external optional tool/package/framework the same way all other Smalltalks > do? If you say Calypso is the official & supported browser, fine! Then > just get Nautilus out of the image, create a nice loadable package for it > and if someone prefers Nautilus, they'll just have to load it into the > image, the same way VW has a gazillion optional tools/packages/frameworks > you can load from a parcel! > > Whenever I get asked a simple question by a newbie like "Oh, which system > browser should I use?", quite frankly, I don't know what to answer. Did we > include Calypso to deprecate Nautilus later? Is Calypso just a proof of > concept? Is it just an optional tool? What about all those delay > schedulers? > > "I loaded this code from SqueakSource and it just doesn't work". Should I > help the guy to fix it or just tell him to convert all the code to the > corresponding framework in Pharo? > > Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's > the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. > > > ----------------- > BenoÃ®t St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Twitter: @BenLeChialeux > Pinterest: benoitstjean > Instagram: Chef_Benito > IRC: lamneth > Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com > "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) >

April 13, 2018

Where do we go now ?

by Benoit St-Jean

Hello guys, Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I really don't know where we're heading. When Pharo started, the goal was to depart from Squeak and do a *major clean up* of all the code, especially Morphic.Â The promise of a new, clean & lean Smalltalk attracted a lot of people.Â And then... I'm looking at the Pharo 7.0 image right now and I just don't get where we're heading.Â Every Pharo release gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger.Â I don't mind the environment getting bigger if it adds functionalities or new tools but that's not quite the case here. LOTS of stuff is just duplicated. Do we really need 2 code completion classes (NECController, NOCController) ?Â Do we really need 2 system browsers (Nautilus, Calypso)? Do we really need 2 compilers (OpalCompiler, Compiler) ?Â Do we really need 8 delay schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, DelayMillisecondScheduler, DelayNullScheduler, DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ?Â Do we really need 2 inspectors (GTInspector, EyeInspector) ?Â Do we really need 2 workspaces (GTPlayground, Workspace) ? Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera.Â I could go on, and on, and on... Pharo 5.1 had 5885 classes. Pharo 6.1 had 6481 classes. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 7612 classes.Â Can you see a trend? Pharo 5.1 had 416 preference settings. Pharo 6.1 had 494 preference settings. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 662 preference settings.Â Can you see a trend? Pharo 5.1 had a 27.44 MB image. Pharo 6.1 had a 35.18 MB image. Pharo 7.0 alpha has a 47.97 MB image.Â Can you see a trend? Add to that the fact that Pharo is a nightmare when you want to port code.Â Just with the 7.0 release, 61 classes will be deprecated (and lots more to come if you search for the string "deprecated" into the code, most of the time hidden in the comments of the soon-to-be-deprecated-in-Pharo-8-I-guess classes). You have code that deals with sockets, should you use the old Socket classes or convert everything to Zodiac? And why do we keep both "frameworks" in the image ?Â Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with "old socket classes" a looooooong time ago anyway! You have code that deals with dependencies, should you use the old dependents mechanism or convert everything to announcements? UI speaking, what framework should anyone use ?Â Athens?Â Something else? You have code that deals with streams, should you use the old stream classes or convert everything to Zinc ? And why do we keep both "frameworks" in the image ?Â Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with the old stream classes a looooooong time ago anyway! So what's the plan?Â For instance, should I keep using the Nautilus Browser or I should switch to the Calypso browser and get used to it because Nautilus will be deprecated?Â Or should I just don't care because a third system browser will be added in Pharo 8 just because "it's cool, let's add this one too!" ? Couldn't we just decide on what's "official" and what's a goodie or an external optional tool/package/framework the same way all other Smalltalks do?Â If you say Calypso is the official & supported browser, fine!Â Then just get Nautilus out of the image, create a nice loadable package for it and if someone prefers Nautilus, they'll just have to load it into the image, the same way VW has a gazillion optional tools/packages/frameworks you can load from a parcel! Whenever I get asked a simple question by a newbie like "Oh, which system browser should I use?", quite frankly, I don't know what to answer.Â Did we include Calypso to deprecate Nautilus later?Â Is Calypso just a proof of concept?Â Is it just an optional tool?Â What about all those delay schedulers? Â "I loaded this code from SqueakSource and it just doesn't work".Â Should I help the guy to fix it or just tell him to convert all the code to the corresponding framework in Pharo? Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. ----------------- BenoÃ®t St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean Instagram: Chef_Benito IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".Â (A. Einstein)

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Progress bar for ZnClient>>#downloadTo:

by Ben Coman

You may have guessed I hadn't used Jobs much before. Then I was surprised that I couldn't find much about Jobs in either Pharo By Example, Deep Into Pharo or Enterprise Pharo. >From digging around I made a minimal example I report to help others' searches, and open it for improvement. x := 1. [ [x < 100] whileTrue: [ x := x + 10. 0.1 seconds wait. ] ] forkAt: 30 named: 'worker'. [ :job | [ x < 100 ] whileTrue: [ job current: x. 0.1 seconds wait. ] ] asJob title: 'Work progress...'; min: 0; max: 100; run. cheers -ben On 12 April 2018 at 23:02, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: > > > On 12 April 2018 at 18:15, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > >> Ben, >> >> You disappoint me, as I would expect you to trace senders/users of >> #signalProgress: ;-) >> > > :P > Yeah I knew I was being slack. I couldn't really follow its operation and > was a bit tired. > Actually maybe part of my confusion is that #signalProgress feels more > like a command than a status. > I've a slight feeling it would be better as #signallingProgress. > > > >> ZnClient only signals certain Notifications which a UI around it should >> deal with. >> >> For example, >> >> [ :bar | >> bar title: 'Downloading Sources...'. >> [ >> ZnClient new >> url: 'http://files.pharo.org/sources/PharoV30.sources'; >> signalProgress: true; >> downloadTo: FileLocator temp ] >> on: HTTPProgress >> do: [ :progress | >> progress isEmpty ifFalse: [ bar current: progress percentage ]. >> progress resume ] ] asJob run. >> > > Thanks, that worked, but its a bit convoluted for my goldfish memory to > remember each time. > I'd expect having that as a convenience method would be useful to many. > > ZnClient > showProgress: 'Downloading sources...' > during: [ :znClient | > znClient url: 'http://files.pharo.org/sources/PharoV30.sources'. > znClient downloadTo: FileLocator imageDirectory ]. > > ZnClient class >> showProgress: title during: clientBlock > |client| > client := ZnClient new. > client signallingProgress: true. > [ :bar | > bar title: title. > [clientBlock value: client] > on: HTTPProgress > do: [ :progress | > progress isEmpty ifFalse: [ bar current: progress percentage ]. > progress resume ] ] asJob run. > > Easily discoverable as the only class-side method of ZnClient, > and this would also make a useful howto reference. > > > >> But there are other UI approaches as well. > > >> Sven >> > > Thanks for you prompt response. > cheers -ben > > > >> > On 12 Apr 2018, at 11:25, Ben Coman <btc(a)openinworld.com> wrote: >> > >> > I see ZnClient >> downloadTo: >> > calls ZnClient >> downloadEntityTo: >> > which uses #withProgressDo: >> > which indicates a progress bar might appear. >> > >> > But... >> > ZnClient new >> > url: ' https://download.libsodium.org >> /libsodium/releases/libsodium-1.0.16-msvc.zip' ; >> > downloadTo: FileLocator imageDirectory. >> > doesn't show a progress bar. What is the recommended way to display >> one? >> > >> > cheers -ben >> >> >> >

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] SmalltalkCI now supports loading tonel-based projects

by Gabriel Cotelli

Framework for testing Smalltalk projects on Linux, macOS, and Windows and on Travis CI and AppVeyor. https://github.com/hpi-swa/smalltalkCI On Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 2:04 PM, Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> wrote: > What is SmalltalkCI? > > Tonel is a very cool feature as it makes commiting source in file based > repo very friendly, and browsing from from web based UI tools nice too. > > > > Le 07/04/2018 Ã 11:28, Peter UhnÃ¡k a Ã©crit : > >> SmalltalkCI now supports loading tonel-based projects, so feel free to >> start using it. >> >> > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu > > > >

April 12, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] SmalltalkCI now supports loading tonel-based projects

by Hilaire

What is SmalltalkCI? Tonel is a very cool feature as it makes commiting source in file based repo very friendly, and browsing from from web based UI tools nice too. Le 07/04/2018 Ã 11:28, Peter UhnÃ¡k a Ã©critÂ : > SmalltalkCI now supports loading tonel-based projects, so feel free to > start using it. > -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

April 12, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] SmalltalkCI now supports loading tonel-based projects

by Sean P. DeNigris

Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote > Thanks this is good to know because I want to migrate all my projects > and future project to use tonel. +1! ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

April 12, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] In P7 scrpt variable to tmp when in debugger

by Hilaire

Thanks. Le 12/04/2018 Ã 17:18, Marcus Denker a Ã©critÂ : > I should have a fix ready tomorrow. -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

April 12, 2018