- Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by aglynn42＠gmail.com

Maybe Iâm missing something, or maybe Iâm not âeveryoneâ, but Iâve only had a few problems with 32 bit Pharo 7 and Windows. Btw Windows 10 â64 bitâ is about as 64 bit as Windows 95 was 32 bit. i.e. not very. Most of the issues center around Moose, not the core Pharo. But Iâm only playing with Pharo 7, mainly on Linux where the latest image seems pretty stable. My actual development is still on 61 (and in one case, 5.0 since it requires the old FFI). M$ is supposed to fix the remains of 32 bit Windows next year, but we all know what ânext yearâ means to Microsoft, itâs forever ânext yearâ. As far as I understood, most of the development of Pharo 7 is focused on the 64 bit version in any case. Whatâs missing from 61 that you absolutely have to have ATM? Andrew From: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 5:26 AM To: Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ? BTW, why put an .exe installer for Windows available when it crashes right from the start? It just doesn't work at all. Period. For everyone. And I thought looking for senders of a method was something we mastered a long time ago, like starting with Smalltalk-76. Am I supposed to assume that everything, even basic functionalities, are all broken because it's labeled "alpha" ? ----------------- BenoÃ®t St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean Instagram: Chef_Benito IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) On Friday, April 13, 2018, 5:20:28 a.m. EDT, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com <mailto:estebanlm@gmail.com> > wrote: On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:07, Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com <mailto:bstjean@yahoo.com> > wrote: I'm on Windows 10, using Pharo 7.0 alpha 32 bit. and btwâ¦ which part of ALPHA you do not get? Esteban

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 13 Apr 2018, at 12:19, Joe Shirk <j.b.shirk(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I've been a lurk-fan for a long time but this brings up something that distressed me. Richard Eng, Smalltalk Renaissance hero loves to say Smalltalk's grammar/syntax fits on a postcard. > > But the vocabulary doesn't. There is nothing English-like about the always expanding bewildering library namespaces. > > GT what? Oh a newbie might eventually figure out it means Glamorous Toolkit. These are meaningless brands. In this drive to come up with creative names for "just objects" that explain nothing at all, Smalltalk is becoming like Java or PHP hell. > Just look at those examples through the eyes of a novice. The purity is nowhere to be found. > :( You are right, but in 'the real world' it is no longer possible to reserve the nice, simple names for just one variant. The prefixes are a poor mans namespace mechanism. You have to read over them. Inspector, EyeInspector, GTInspector, ... I rather have cool alternatives and the development of new ideas than 'one ring to rule them all' or no/slow progress. Remember that we develop in a live system, changing things while testing them, this is often hard. Alternative subsystems help a lot. > On Apr 13, 2018 1:56 AM, "Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users" <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> > To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 05:53:46 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Where do we go now ? > Hello guys, > > Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I really don't know where we're heading. > > When Pharo started, the goal was to depart from Squeak and do a *major clean up* of all the code, especially Morphic. The promise of a new, clean & lean Smalltalk attracted a lot of people. And then... > > I'm looking at the Pharo 7.0 image right now and I just don't get where we're heading. Every Pharo release gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger. I don't mind the environment getting bigger if it adds functionalities or new tools but that's not quite the case here. LOTS of stuff is just duplicated. > > Do we really need 2 code completion classes (NECController, NOCController) ? Do we really need 2 system browsers (Nautilus, Calypso)? Do we really need 2 compilers (OpalCompiler, Compiler) ? Do we really need 8 delay schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, DelayMillisecondScheduler, DelayNullScheduler, DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ? Do we really need 2 inspectors (GTInspector, EyeInspector) ? Do we really need 2 workspaces (GTPlayground, Workspace) ? Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera. I could go on, and on, and on... > > Pharo 5.1 had 5885 classes. Pharo 6.1 had 6481 classes. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 7612 classes. Can you see a trend? > > Pharo 5.1 had 416 preference settings. Pharo 6.1 had 494 preference settings. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 662 preference settings. Can you see a trend? > > Pharo 5.1 had a 27.44 MB image. Pharo 6.1 had a 35.18 MB image. Pharo 7.0 alpha has a 47.97 MB image. Can you see a trend? > > Add to that the fact that Pharo is a nightmare when you want to port code. Just with the 7.0 release, 61 classes will be deprecated (and lots more to come if you search for the string "deprecated" into the code, most of the time hidden in the comments of the soon-to-be-deprecated-in-Pharo-8-I-guess classes). > > You have code that deals with sockets, should you use the old Socket classes or convert everything to Zodiac? And why do we keep both "frameworks" in the image ? Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with "old socket classes" a looooooong time ago anyway! > > You have code that deals with dependencies, should you use the old dependents mechanism or convert everything to announcements? > > UI speaking, what framework should anyone use ? Athens? Something else? > > You have code that deals with streams, should you use the old stream classes or convert everything to Zinc ? And why do we keep both "frameworks" in the image ? Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with the old stream classes a looooooong time ago anyway! > > So what's the plan? For instance, should I keep using the Nautilus Browser or I should switch to the Calypso browser and get used to it because Nautilus will be deprecated? Or should I just don't care because a third system browser will be added in Pharo 8 just because "it's cool, let's add this one too!" ? > > Couldn't we just decide on what's "official" and what's a goodie or an external optional tool/package/framework the same way all other Smalltalks do? If you say Calypso is the official & supported browser, fine! Then just get Nautilus out of the image, create a nice loadable package for it and if someone prefers Nautilus, they'll just have to load it into the image, the same way VW has a gazillion optional tools/packages/frameworks you can load from a parcel! > > Whenever I get asked a simple question by a newbie like "Oh, which system browser should I use?", quite frankly, I don't know what to answer. Did we include Calypso to deprecate Nautilus later? Is Calypso just a proof of concept? Is it just an optional tool? What about all those delay schedulers? > > "I loaded this code from SqueakSource and it just doesn't work". Should I help the guy to fix it or just tell him to convert all the code to the corresponding framework in Pharo? > > Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. > > > ----------------- > BenoÃ®t St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Twitter: @BenLeChialeux > Pinterest: benoitstjean > Instagram: Chef_Benito > IRC: lamneth > Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com > "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) > >

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Joe Shirk

I've been a lurk-fan for a long time but this brings up something that distressed me. Richard Eng, Smalltalk Renaissance hero loves to say Smalltalk's grammar/syntax fits on a postcard. But the vocabulary doesn't. There is nothing English-like about the always expanding bewildering library namespaces. GT what? Oh a newbie might eventually figure out it means Glamorous Toolkit. These are meaningless brands. In this drive to come up with creative names for "just objects" that explain nothing at all, Smalltalk is becoming like Java or PHP hell. Just look at those examples through the eyes of a novice. The purity is nowhere to be found. :( On Apr 13, 2018 1:56 AM, "Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users" < pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org Cc: Bcc: Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 05:53:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Where do we go now ? Hello guys, Just a quick word to get some things straight because, quite frankly, I really don't know where we're heading. When Pharo started, the goal was to depart from Squeak and do a *major clean up* of all the code, especially Morphic. The promise of a new, clean & lean Smalltalk attracted a lot of people. And then... I'm looking at the Pharo 7.0 image right now and I just don't get where we're heading. Every Pharo release gets bigger, and bigger, and bigger. I don't mind the environment getting bigger if it adds functionalities or new tools but that's not quite the case here. LOTS of stuff is just duplicated. Do we really need 2 code completion classes (NECController, NOCController) ? Do we really need 2 system browsers (Nautilus, Calypso)? Do we really need 2 compilers (OpalCompiler, Compiler) ? Do we really need 8 delay schedulers (DelayMicrosecondScheduler, DelayMillisecondScheduler, DelayNullScheduler, DelayExperimentalSpinScheduler, DelaySpinScheduler, DelayTicklessScheduler, DelayExperimentalCourageousScheduler, DelayExperimentalSemaphoreScheduler) ? Do we really need 2 inspectors (GTInspector, EyeInspector) ? Do we really need 2 workspaces (GTPlayground, Workspace) ? Et cetera. Et cetera. Et cetera. I could go on, and on, and on... Pharo 5.1 had 5885 classes. Pharo 6.1 had 6481 classes. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 7612 classes. Can you see a trend? Pharo 5.1 had 416 preference settings. Pharo 6.1 had 494 preference settings. Pharo 7.0 alpha has 662 preference settings. Can you see a trend? Pharo 5.1 had a 27.44 MB image. Pharo 6.1 had a 35.18 MB image. Pharo 7.0 alpha has a 47.97 MB image. Can you see a trend? Add to that the fact that Pharo is a nightmare when you want to port code. Just with the 7.0 release, 61 classes will be deprecated (and lots more to come if you search for the string "deprecated" into the code, most of the time hidden in the comments of the soon-to-be-deprecated-in-Pharo-8-I-guess classes). You have code that deals with sockets, should you use the old Socket classes or convert everything to Zodiac? And why do we keep both "frameworks" in the image ? Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with "old socket classes" a looooooong time ago anyway! You have code that deals with dependencies, should you use the old dependents mechanism or convert everything to announcements? UI speaking, what framework should anyone use ? Athens? Something else? You have code that deals with streams, should you use the old stream classes or convert everything to Zinc ? And why do we keep both "frameworks" in the image ? Pharo hasn't been backward compatible with the old stream classes a looooooong time ago anyway! So what's the plan? For instance, should I keep using the Nautilus Browser or I should switch to the Calypso browser and get used to it because Nautilus will be deprecated? Or should I just don't care because a third system browser will be added in Pharo 8 just because "it's cool, let's add this one too!" ? Couldn't we just decide on what's "official" and what's a goodie or an external optional tool/package/framework the same way all other Smalltalks do? If you say Calypso is the official & supported browser, fine! Then just get Nautilus out of the image, create a nice loadable package for it and if someone prefers Nautilus, they'll just have to load it into the image, the same way VW has a gazillion optional tools/packages/frameworks you can load from a parcel! Whenever I get asked a simple question by a newbie like "Oh, which system browser should I use?", quite frankly, I don't know what to answer. Did we include Calypso to deprecate Nautilus later? Is Calypso just a proof of concept? Is it just an optional tool? What about all those delay schedulers? "I loaded this code from SqueakSource and it just doesn't work". Should I help the guy to fix it or just tell him to convert all the code to the corresponding framework in Pharo? Perhaps a little bit of clarity and details about what's coming and what's the plan would be beneficial to a lot of us. ----------------- BenoÃ®t St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean Instagram: Chef_Benito IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein)

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Ben Coman

On 13 April 2018 at 17:07, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users < pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> > To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org>, > Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:07:16 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ? > "You cannot take an alpha version and expect production quality." > > I'm on Windows 10, using Pharo 7.0 alpha 32 bit. > > > Can I at least expect to be able to save code in my local Monticello > repository ? It bombs. I just reported a bug! > > Can I expect the Windows installer for Pharo Launcher to work on Windows? > It doesn't : it crashes. > It works fine for me on Windows 10. There were some issues that depended on how PharoLauncher was installed. The installer (NSIS) being used at that time doesn't handle non-Admin installs very well. Prior to PharoLauncher being promoted as the main download, I guess people on Windows using PharoLauncher either ran it as Admin, or worked around it like me - on Windows I would just roll my own from a fresh Pharo 6 and the Project Catalog. To be clear, the problem was heavily influenced by the constraints of an external tool. Get PharoLauncher installed in the right location and it works like a dream. Did you try the proof-of-concept installer I posted previously to the list... http://www.mediafire.com/file/3g579bmzqspt8e1/BCPharoLauncher.msi > > Can I expect Pharo Launcher (not installed from the .exe installer) to > work on Windows? It just doesn't. I get all kinds of error related to > WindowsStore, bad UTF-8 encoding and other things... (see > https://twitter.com/smalltalkdev/status/978973863332798464) > Yes most people can expect it works perfectly on Windows. But as always it depends. There is always the chance something in your environment triggers a bug. like maybe non-ascii characters in you username/path? > > Can I expect that when looking for implementors of a method things still > work? I get duplicates (see attached file). > Do you mean only the duplicate "Traited class >> isTrait" in your screenshot? I just tried this in "Pharo-7.0+alpha.build.762.sha.0e0fe47c5ccef" by typing "isTrait" into the Playground, selecting it and pressing Ctrl-M, and I don't get the duplicate. Which build of Pharo are you using? > > Can I expect reading input from the console to work on Windows? It > doesn't. > Bit hard to understand your problem from that one-liner. > > Can I expect to be able to test my stuff on Windows? That's kinda hard > when Windows is always 6 months to 1 year behind VM-wise. > I'm not whining about the effort people put into this project : I'm mostly > whining about duplication of effort and code and *very poor* Windows > support... > AFAIK, Pharo 6.1 32-bit VM is up to date with the other platforms. Regarding 64-bit Windows. Yes it is behind. The specific companies interested in 64-bit Linux support put money on the table to get it done. No one has stepped up to do the same for Windows 64-bit, so realistically it lags behind. btw, lately it gets harder to run 32-bit apps on Linux and OSX, but there is no reason to stop using 32-bits VM on Windows. > > Can I expect to be able to contribute ? That is kinda sad but all the > cool scripts out there are .sh files. > huh? > Just spend 2 weeks working with Pharo on Windows. You can start with > version 5.1 if you want and let me know how it goes... Brace yourself, I'm > telling you, you're off for a wild & unpleasant ride. > Its been a while since I worked with Pharo on Windows, but I've been using it the last few weeks with no problems. Pharo 6.1 and Pharo 7. cheers -ben

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Benoit St-Jean

For those interested. Created the issues 21686, 21693, 21695, 21696. And more to come... ----------------- BenoÃ®t St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean Instagram: Chef_Benito IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".Â (A. Einstein)

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by ClÃ©ment Bera

"Alpha software can be unstable and could cause crashes or data loss" [1] Experiencing instability, crashes and data loss in the alpha version of a software, including Pharo alpha, is to be expected and nothing to be surprised about. The support of the Pharo stable version (currently 6.1) has significantly improved in the past year. Many fixes and enhancements were back-ported from Pharo 7 to Pharo 6.1. Based on your comments, it seems that you have issues because you are not using the version of Pharo that fits your needs (i.e. the stable version). Checking the Pharo website [2], it seems there are *no* download links to the alpha version so far because it's not considered stable enough. Where did you get a link to download Pharo 7 alpha ? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_release_life_cycle [2] https://pharo.org/download On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 11:26 AM, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users < pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> > To: Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 09:26:09 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ? > BTW, why put an .exe installer for Windows available when it crashes right > from the start? It just doesn't work at all. Period. For everyone. > > And I thought looking for senders of a method was something we mastered a > long time ago, like starting with Smalltalk-76. Am I supposed to assume > that everything, even basic functionalities, are all broken because it's > labeled "alpha" ? > > > ----------------- > BenoÃ®t St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Twitter: @BenLeChialeux > Pinterest: benoitstjean > Instagram: Chef_Benito > IRC: lamneth > Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com > "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) > > > On Friday, April 13, 2018, 5:20:28 a.m. EDT, Esteban Lorenzano < > estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:07, Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > I'm on Windows 10, using Pharo 7.0 alpha 32 bit. > > > and btwâ¦ which part of ALPHA you do not get? > > Esteban > > -- ClÃ©ment BÃ©ra https://clementbera.github.io/ https://clementbera.wordpress.com/

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Alistair Grant

On 13 April 2018 at 11:04, Sven Van Caekenberghe <sven(a)stfx.eu> wrote: > > >> On 13 Apr 2018, at 08:43, phil(a)highoctane.be wrote: >> >> I consider Pharo 7 as a great piece of kit but unusable for my current work. There are many new things to learn in there. When is too much too much? Also, simplifications are breaking things in unexpected ways (like the #atEnd thing). > > Phil, > > Nothing fundamental will break with #atEnd. > > What you are reading in pharo-dev is a constructive discussion that (for me at least) started with the desire to support one very special kind of stream (stdin in C terms), something 99.99% of Pharo users have never seen, used or heard of. Completely agree (despite one of my later messages to Sven being overly grumpy). I've learnt a lot from this exchange. Cheers, Alistair > Zn streams have worked well and as expected for Pharo versions going back to 3, that won't change.

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Cyril Ferlicot D.

On 13/04/2018 11:26, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users wrote: Do you expect a cleaning of the Kernel without any break during alpha version? This version introduce a new message browser, new Traits, more modularization of the kernel and some cleaning of the Kernel. I see a lot of reason why it might break during the alpha version. -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Marcus Denker

> On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:26, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > > > From: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ? > Date: 13 April 2018 at 11:26:09 CEST > To: Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> > Cc: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > Reply-To: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> > > > BTW, why put an .exe installer for Windows available when it crashes right from the start? It just doesn't work at all. Period. For everyone. > > And I thought looking for senders of a method was something we mastered a long time ago, like starting with Smalltalk-76. Am I supposed to assume that everything, even basic functionalities, are all broken because it's labeled "alphaâ ? We have already a issue tracker entry with a description of a fix: https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/21518/New-Traits-brings-wrong-behaviour-t… <https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/21518/New-Traits-brings-wrong-behaviour-t…> TODO: turn that description into code and make a Pull Request. Marcus

April 13, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Esteban Lorenzano

ok, you want to have the last word. Go ahead. You have it. What you do not have is my attention anymore. cheers! Esteban > On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:26, Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > BTW, why put an .exe installer for Windows available when it crashes right from the start? It just doesn't work at all. Period. For everyone. > > And I thought looking for senders of a method was something we mastered a long time ago, like starting with Smalltalk-76. Am I supposed to assume that everything, even basic functionalities, are all broken because it's labeled "alpha" ? > > > ----------------- > BenoÃ®t St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Twitter: @BenLeChialeux > Pinterest: benoitstjean > Instagram: Chef_Benito > IRC: lamneth > Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com > "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) > > > On Friday, April 13, 2018, 5:20:28 a.m. EDT, Esteban Lorenzano <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > >> On 13 Apr 2018, at 11:07, Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com <mailto:bstjean@yahoo.com>> wrote: >> >> I'm on Windows 10, using Pharo 7.0 alpha 32 bit. >> > > and btwâ¦ which part of ALPHA you do not get? > > Esteban

April 13, 2018