- Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Projects using Magritte meta models

by Sean P. DeNigris

Rafael Luque wrote > I wonder if there are other relevant projects I could study to discover > other possible > uses cases of Magritte. I use it in nearly all my personal projects, almost always via Morphic, not Seaside. Here is a public one you can have a look at: https://github.com/seandenigris/Small-World Load in Pharo 6.1 via: Metacello new baseline: 'SmallWorld'; repository: 'github://seandenigris/SmallWorld:master/repository'; onConflict: [ :ex | ex allow ]; load. Browse senders of magritteDescription for classes prefixed with "Small". ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

April 21, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] min:max:

by Ben Coman

On 21 April 2018 at 03:51, Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> wrote: > Hi, > > Out of curiosity. > > I always found the #min:max: confusing and lost in its expressiveness. > > One should write: > > 10 min: 48 max: 12 > > to expect 12. > > but logically one (at least me) may want to express it as: > > 10 min: 12 max: 48 > > Then when reading its source code, it is even more confusing: > > min: aMin max: aMax > ^ (self min: aMin) max: aMax > > Are not the argument names inversed in their meaning, if any? I would agree. I see most use by Color like... Color>>adjustBrightness: brightness "Adjust the relative brightness of this color. (lowest value is 0.005 so that hue information is not lost)" ^ self class h: self hue s: self saturation v: (self brightness + brightness min: 1.0 max: 0.005) alpha: self alpha Trying to read that twists my brain. I can understand the intent from the implementation min: aMin max: aMax ^ (self min: aMin) max: aMax but that message might more properly be #min:thenMax: However something like (self brightness + brightness boundedBy: 0.005 and: 1.0) (self brightness + brightness boundedMin: 0.005 max: 1.0) seems more intention revealing. Altering #min:max semantics would make awful portability, but perhaps it should forward to a new method to make it clear the other is preferred. Would the Squeak community be amenable to a similar change? I'd be happy to contribute the changes to the Squeak Inbox. cheers -ben

April 21, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by David T. Lewis

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 07:08:29AM -0700, Sean P. DeNigris wrote: > Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote > > I like when developers are talking about names: > > They use a mac and not a computer, they were nike, lewis and not shoes > > and pants.... > > So guys can we focus our energy on positive things. > > IHMO this is certainly a positive subject because it highlights the > as-yet-to-be-resolved tension regarding understandability of the system > between having a unique name (good for googling, distinguishing between > versions) and a name that reveals what the project does/is for. What is the > plan to resolve this because it is a real problem? > > Nike and Levis are designed to stand on their own in front of the consumer > market. Is this true of Nautilus, Calypso, or Epicea? Sean, Thank you for this clarification! I read Stef's message this morning and I honestly thought that my name ("lewis") might have something to do with pants. That probably would not be a good thing. But now I see that we are talking about "levis" so I feel much better now :-) Dave (Lewis, not Levis)

April 20, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Andrei Stebakov

That would definitely help if Pharo shed some of its elitism with fancy names. Then it would have much more appeal for the masses (and definitely increase popularity of Smalltalk) but it is the intent of the community, that's the question. On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users < pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> wrote: > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Benoit St-Jean <bstjean(a)yahoo.com> > To: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org > Cc: "sean(a)clipperadams.com" <sean(a)clipperadams.com> > Bcc: > Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 20:09:43 +0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ? > I concur with Sean's comments. The problem is not using names : the > problem is for new users. > > A very quick look at what's in Pharo 7 shows the following names : Iceberg, > Ombu, Calypso, Flashback, Nautilus, Renraku, Zodiac, Shift, Zinc, Hermes, > Beacon, Cargo, Hermes, Opal, Shoreline, Epicea, Balloon, BlueInk, > Commander, Fuel, Glamorous, Glamour, Gofer, Hiedra, Metacello, Moose, Ring, > Rubric, Shout, Spec, etc... > > How many Pharo *users* (not regular contributors!) know what those > tools/frameworks/packages do ??? Make the test and tell us how many out of > 30 names you were able to identify correctly ! > > Unless we *clearly* publicize/describe what those names are, there's no > way in a thousand years you could tell that BlueInk is not a package > dealing with fonts (that was my first guess) ! > > Newcomers and (developers in general) expect a few things. For instance, > there's a gazillion UI frameworks out there and, most of the time, the name > used for them is one of a famous painter. VisualWorks had Chagall for > instance. > > Or you'd expect some kind of hint from the name, e.g. XStreams, > ScriptManager, RefactoringBrowser. > > Or somethings as simple as Regex, the regex package from Bykov. Or > Announcements from the same guy. > > Or names that reveals something from an etymology standpoint, e.g. > TelePharo. > > The simple fact that someone had to create a file to describe all those > names/projects/framework on GitHub tells us a lot (https://github.com/ > AdamSadovsky/pharo-family/blob/master/catalog.txt) ! > > Unless we make it *EXTRA* clear and easily searchable and obvious what > those names represent, it's just more confusion for the newcomer. > > Do you know what Celery is? Probably not! But if I ask you the same > question for RabbitMQ, ActiveMQ, MQSeries, StormMQ, SnakeMQ, IronMQ, > ZeroMQ, MQTT and MSMQ, you probably figured out it's related to message > queues, right? Well, Celery is also related to message queues... See? > > There's nothing worse or more confusing than a bad/weird/unrelated name. > For example, the biggest company in Canada is called "Canadian Tire". If > you think you're gonna end up in a place specialized in tires, you're off > for a big surprise !!!! > > On the other end of the spectrum, you have something like iTunes. > Everybody knows iTunes. And I guess, even if you didn't know, you can > kinda easily guess it's related to music. Your grandma might not exactly > remember the name but she'll remember "Was it xTunes? zTunes? yTunes? It > was something 'tunes', to music" ! > > And comparing other "names" with Pharo names makes no sense. Nike, > Hibernate, Jenkins, Docker and Oracle cannot be compared to Epicea, > BlueInk, Flashback and Opal. They just don't have the same visibility and > public exposure. That is hopefully a problem that will vanish as Pharo > gets more and more attention and users and gets known more and more. But > in the meantime, those names merely help us differentiate implementations > of solutions, for us the *regulars*. > > Was it really that hard to replace the old workspace with Workspace2 or > WhateverWorkspace ? Or even better : get rid of the old Workspace and > replace it with Playground while retaining the name "Workspace" ??? Did we > really need to call it Playground and confuse every new Smalltalker out > there that has seen the term "Workspace" for Dolphin, Smalltalk/X, > VisualAge, VisualWorks, ObjectStudio, GNU Smalltalk, Amber, PharoJS, > Smalltalk MT and every other Smalltalk around *EXCEPT* Pharo? > > Why are we trying to complicate things when we could just make it > soooooooooooooo simple? > > Let's make it easy for **newcomers** to get their way around and know what > the named tools/frameworks do. Get rid of duplicate tools (do we need more > than one kind of Inspector? Do we need 2 compilers? Do we need 8 Delay > schedulers? Do we need 2 system browsers? Do we need the duo > Workspace/Playground) ? Make these extra tools available somewhere it can > be loaded from if a user *really* wants them in their image, but let's keep > those OUT of the image! > > > > ----------------- > BenoÃ®t St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Twitter: @BenLeChialeux > Pinterest: benoitstjean > Instagram: Chef_Benito > IRC: lamneth > Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com > "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) > > > On Friday, April 20, 2018, 10:09:13 a.m. EDT, Sean P. DeNigris < > sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > > > Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote > > I like when developers are talking about names: > > They use a mac and not a computer, they were nike, lewis and not shoes > > and pants.... > > So guys can we focus our energy on positive things. > > IHMO this is certainly a positive subject because it highlights the > as-yet-to-be-resolved tension regarding understandability of the system > between having a unique name (good for googling, distinguishing between > versions) and a name that reveals what the project does/is for. What is the > plan to resolve this because it is a real problem? > > Nike and Levis are designed to stand on their own in front of the consumer > market. Is this true of Nautilus, Calypso, or Epicea? > > A more relevant example of products that are geared to be presented to > consumers as /part of/ another more-uniquely-named product come to mind: OS > release codenames: > - Mac - OS X 10.11: El Capitan and macOS 10.12: Sierra. Note that they > didn't just invent a random-seeming fabricated name and tell people to get > over it, they also provide a number which situates it in its domain. > - Interestingly Windows has moved back to boring release numbers and has > dropped the fantasy names > > Possible solutions: > - Make project tags /the primary view for new users when searching the > system. There is a lot of talk about students and having to explain > confusing things to them. Would it not be more straightforward to look for > a > "Class Browser" or "SCM" category?! > - If projects are designed just-for-pharo, maybe borrow another trick from > OS X - have a codename for development (like Fuji for Sierra) and then > change it to something more generic on release, like Browser3, although now > that we seem to be keeping tools in their own project repos, that might be > problematic > > I summary, IMHO it is important to provide both: > - A clear, searchable, pragmatic way to navigate/understand the system > - As well as the unique, google-able, but usually undescriptive way we have > > now > > > > ----- > Cheers, > > Sean > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > >

April 20, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] min:max:

by herby＠mailbox.sk

On April 21, 2018 12:12:10 AM GMT+02:00, Chris Cunningham <cunningham.cb(a)gmail.com> wrote: >A name like this would be clearer (although much more annoying): > >returnAtLeast: minValue butNoMoreThan: maxValue > 10 returnAtLeast: 12 butNoMoreThan: 48 #beBetween:and: or #boundedBetween:and: >Thanks, >cbc > >On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> Out of curiosity. >> >> I always found the #min:max: confusing and lost in its >expressiveness. >> >> One should write: >> >> 10 min: 48 max: 12 >> >> to expect 12. >> >> but logically one (at least me) may want to express it as: >> >> 10 min: 12 max: 48 >> >> Then when reading its source code, it is even more confusing: >> >> min: aMin max: aMax >> ^ (self min: aMin) max: aMax >> >> Are not the argument names inversed in their meaning, if any? >> >> Hilaire >> >> -- >> Dr. Geo >> http://drgeo.eu >> >> >> >>

April 20, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] min:max:

by Chris Cunningham

A name like this would be clearer (although much more annoying): returnAtLeast: minValue butNoMoreThan: maxValue 10 returnAtLeast: 12 butNoMoreThan: 48 Thanks, cbc On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 12:51 PM, Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> wrote: > Hi, > > Out of curiosity. > > I always found the #min:max: confusing and lost in its expressiveness. > > One should write: > > 10 min: 48 max: 12 > > to expect 12. > > but logically one (at least me) may want to express it as: > > 10 min: 12 max: 48 > > Then when reading its source code, it is even more confusing: > > min: aMin max: aMax > ^ (self min: aMin) max: aMax > > Are not the argument names inversed in their meaning, if any? > > Hilaire > > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu > > > >

April 20, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Where do we go now ?

by Benoit St-Jean

I concur with Sean's comments.Â The problem is not using names : the problem is for new users. A very quick look at what's in Pharo 7 shows the following names : Iceberg, Ombu, Calypso, Flashback, Nautilus, Renraku, Zodiac, Shift, Zinc, Hermes, Beacon, Cargo, Hermes, Opal, Shoreline, Epicea, Balloon, BlueInk, Commander, Fuel, Glamorous, Glamour, Gofer, Hiedra, Metacello, Moose, Ring, Rubric, Shout, Spec, etc... How many Pharo *users* (not regular contributors!) know what those tools/frameworks/packages do ???Â Make the test and tell us how many out of 30 names you were able to identify correctly ! Unless we *clearly* publicize/describe what those names are, there's no way in a thousand years you could tell that BlueInk is not a package dealing with fonts (that was my first guess) ! Newcomers and (developers in general) expect a few things.Â For instance, there's a gazillion UI frameworks out there and, most of the time, the name used for them is one of a famous painter.Â VisualWorks had Chagall for instance. Or you'd expect some kind of hint from the name, e.g. XStreams, ScriptManager, RefactoringBrowser. Or somethings as simple as Regex, the regex package from Bykov.Â Or Announcements from the same guy. Or names that reveals something from an etymology standpoint, e.g. TelePharo. The simple fact that someone had to create a file to describe all those names/projects/framework on GitHub tells us a lot (https://github.com/AdamSadovsky/pharo-family/blob/master/catalog.txt) ! Unless we make it *EXTRA* clear and easily searchable and obvious what those names represent, it's just more confusion for the newcomer. Do you know what Celery is?Â Probably not!Â But if I ask you the same question for RabbitMQ, ActiveMQ, MQSeries, StormMQ, SnakeMQ, IronMQ, ZeroMQ, MQTT and MSMQ, you probably figured out it's related to message queues, right?Â Well, Celery is also related to message queues...Â See? There's nothing worse or more confusing than a bad/weird/unrelated name.Â For example, the biggest company in Canada is called "Canadian Tire".Â If you think you're gonna end up in a place specialized in tires, you're off for a big surprise !!!! On the other end of the spectrum, you have something like iTunes.Â Everybody knows iTunes.Â And I guess, even if you didn't know, you can kinda easily guess it's related to music.Â Your grandma might not exactly remember the name but she'll remember "Was it xTunes? zTunes? yTunes? It was something 'tunes', to music" ! And comparing other "names" with Pharo names makes no sense.Â Nike, Hibernate, Jenkins, Docker and Oracle cannot be compared to Epicea, BlueInk, Flashback and Opal.Â They just don't have the same visibility and public exposure.Â That is hopefully a problem that will vanish as Pharo gets more and more attention and users and gets known more and more.Â But in the meantime, those names merely help us differentiate implementations of solutions, for us the *regulars*. Was it really that hard to replace the old workspace with Workspace2 or WhateverWorkspace ?Â Or even better : get rid of the old Workspace and replace it with Playground while retaining the name "Workspace" ??? Did we really need to call it Playground and confuse every new Smalltalker out there that has seen the term "Workspace" for Dolphin, Smalltalk/X, VisualAge, VisualWorks, ObjectStudio, GNU Smalltalk, Amber, PharoJS, Smalltalk MT and every other Smalltalk around *EXCEPT* Pharo? Why are we trying to complicate things when we could just make it soooooooooooooo simple? Let's make it easy for **newcomers** to get their way around and know what the named tools/frameworks do.Â Get rid of duplicate tools (do we need more than one kind of Inspector?Â Do we need 2 compilers?Â Do we need 8 Delay schedulers?Â Do we need 2 system browsers? Do we need the duo Workspace/Playground) ?Â Make these extra tools available somewhere it can be loaded from if a user *really* wants them in their image, but let's keep those OUT of the image! ----------------- BenoÃ®t St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean Instagram: Chef_Benito IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".Â (A. Einstein) On Friday, April 20, 2018, 10:09:13 a.m. EDT, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: Stephane Ducasse-3 wrote > I like when developers are talking about names: > They use a mac and not a computer, they were nike, lewis and not shoes > and pants.... > So guys can we focus our energy on positive things. IHMO this is certainly a positive subject because it highlights the as-yet-to-be-resolved tension regarding understandability of the system between having a unique name (good for googling, distinguishing between versions) and a name that reveals what the project does/is for. What is the plan to resolve this because it is a real problem? Nike and Levis are designed to stand on their own in front of the consumer market. Is this true of Nautilus, Calypso, or Epicea? A more relevant example of products that are geared to be presented to consumers as /part of/ another more-uniquely-named product come to mind: OS release codenames: - Mac - OS X 10.11: El Capitan and macOS 10.12: Sierra. Note that they didn't just invent a random-seeming fabricated name and tell people to get over it, they also provide a number which situates it in its domain. - Interestingly Windows has moved back to boring release numbers and has dropped the fantasy names Possible solutions: - Make project tags /the primary view for new users when searching the system. There is a lot of talk about students and having to explain confusing things to them. Would it not be more straightforward to look for a "Class Browser" or "SCM" category?! - If projects are designed just-for-pharo, maybe borrow another trick from OS X - have a codename for development (like Fuji for Sierra) and then change it to something more generic on release, like Browser3, although now that we seem to be keeping tools in their own project repos, that might be problematic I summary, IMHO it is important to provide both: - A clear, searchable, pragmatic way to navigate/understand the system - As well as the unique, google-able, but usually undescriptive way we have now ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

April 20, 2018

Projects using Magritte meta models

by Rafael Luque

Hi all, I'm studying Magritte reading the booklet, Seaside book chapter about it, and the source code in the image. Until now the examples I've found are related with Seaside. I wonder if there are other relevant projects I could study to discover other possible uses cases of Magritte. Thank you!

April 20, 2018

min:max:

by Hilaire

Hi, Out of curiosity. I always found the #min:max: confusing and lost in its expressiveness. One should write: Â Â Â 10 min: 48 max: 12 to expect 12. but logically one (at least me) may want to express it as: Â Â Â 10 min: 12 max: 48 Then when reading its source code, it is even more confusing: min: aMin max: aMax Â Â Â ^ (self min: aMin) max: aMax Are not the argument names inversed in their meaning, if any? Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

April 20, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] #(foo bar baz) min

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 20 Apr 2018, at 20:42, Herbert VojÄÃk <herby(a)mailbox.sk> wrote: > > Hi all! > > Somehow intuitively I presume the subject line to return #bar, but it fails with ByteString not knowing min:, in Pharo 6.1. > > Is it a bug, bug fixed in Pharo 7, or a feature? > > Herby I would say that should work. Strings and Symbols are comparable and sortable. Furthermore #min: & #max: are part of TComparable. Sven

April 20, 2018