January 2022 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: Too many parenthesis - a matter of syntax

by gettimothy

Also...learning to think in Smalltalk has taught me to understand Lisp. As an Emacs guy, that is a good thing (:

Jan. 26, 2022

Re: Too many parenthesis - a matter of syntax

by gettimothy

I like the parenthesis. The thinking process is very much like "thinking in Sets" when building a complex SQLÂ statement. The result is a lot of power in an dense, elegant expression. If, as is often the case with me, I find a nested expression as below too complex, it is very easy to decompose it. I realize this is just a preference, but the denseness forces me to think in Objects and composition rather than process. just my .02 cents. cheers. ---- On Wed, 26 Jan 2022 04:19:39 -0500 Kasper Osterbye <kasper.osterbye(a)gmail.com> wrote ---- Cheers all I have noticed that I often ends up with quite a number of nested expressions, for example: (((json at: 'tree') Â Â Â Â select: [ :e | (e at: 'type') = âblob' ]) Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â collect: [:e | Path from: (e at: 'path')]) Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â select: [ :p | p segments last Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â in: [ :name | (name endsWith: '.md') | (name endsWith: '.mic') ] ] What kind of proposals (if any) have been for a different syntax which could give a more streamlined syntax? My own thinking has been around an alternative to the cascade semicolon. What symbol to use does not matter for me, but something like json at: âtree' Âº Â Â Â Â select: [ :e | ((e at: 'type') = 'blobâ)]Âº Â Â Â Â collect: [:e | Path from: (e at: 'pathâ)]Âº Â Â Â Â select: [ :p | p segments last Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â in: [ :name | (name endsWith: '.md') | (name endsWith: '.mic') ] ] Basically, a send the right hand expression to the result of the left hand expression. Has anyone ever tried this, or is it just one of the many small annoyances best left alone? Best, Kasper

Jan. 26, 2022

Re: Too many parenthesis - a matter of syntax

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Hi Kaspar, I found the initial example actually reasonable readable. However, I would simplify it as follows: (json at: #tree) select: [ :each | ((each at: #type) = #blob) and: [ #(md mic) includes: (Path from: (each at: #path)) extension ] ]. I would personally not try to extend the Smalltalk syntax. The cost is not worth the gain. Tools could be written to help in dealing with deeply nested structures (JSON/XML), they could form their own DSL at a higher level. For a limited example, NeoJSONObject uses the DNU trick to support unary accessors: json at: #tree can be written as json tree and has a path accessor: json atPath: #(tree field name) it also behaves like JavaScript objects in that missing keys are nil. It is not that all this is good or better, it is just handy in some cases. Your code would then be even simpler (less parenthesis): json tree select: [ :each | (each type = #blob) and: [ #(md mic) includes: (Path from: each path) extension ] ]. Sven > On 26 Jan 2022, at 10:19, Kasper Osterbye <kasper.osterbye(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Cheers all > > I have noticed that I often ends up with quite a number of nested expressions, for example: > > (((json at: 'tree') > select: [ :e | (e at: 'type') = âblob' ]) > collect: [:e | Path from: (e at: 'path')]) > select: [ :p | p segments last > in: [ :name | (name endsWith: '.md') | (name endsWith: '.mic') ] ] > > What kind of proposals (if any) have been for a different syntax which could give a more streamlined syntax? > > My own thinking has been around an alternative to the cascade semicolon. What symbol to use does not matter for me, but something like > json at: âtree' Âº > select: [ :e | ((e at: 'type') = 'blobâ)]Âº > collect: [:e | Path from: (e at: 'pathâ)]Âº > select: [ :p | p segments last > in: [ :name | (name endsWith: '.md') | (name endsWith: '.mic') ] ] > > Basically, a send the right hand expression to the result of the left hand expression. > > Has anyone ever tried this, or is it just one of the many small annoyances best left alone? > > Best, > > Kasper

Jan. 26, 2022

Re: Too many parenthesis - a matter of syntax

by jtuchel＠objektfabrik.de

Kasper, I wouldn't say your suggestion looks any more readable than the many parentheses of the original expression. The whole operation is complex enough to be hard to understand. So I agree with both Richard and Sebastian - you should either make the steps readable by giving the intermediate results good names or factor the whole operation out into some object and good method name (which would be hard to read in itself without the temp vars, so you should pobably combine both suggestions). My opinion may be irrelevant, as I don't hold a "real" CS degree. I look at this from the perspective of the poor guy who has to debug this in three years rather than from an angle of elegance or conciseness. I guess even something like the .then() - syntax from Javascrpt wouldn't make this any more readable. And whatever symbol you'd chose it wouldn't communicate what's happening... Joachim Am 26.01.22 um 10:19 schrieb Kasper Osterbye: > Cheers all > > I have noticed that I often ends up with quite a number of nested expressions, for example: > > (((json at: 'tree') > select: [ :e | (e at: 'type') = âblob' ]) > collect: [:e | Path from: (e at: 'path')]) > select: [ :p | p segments last > in: [ :name | (name endsWith: '.md') | (name endsWith: '.mic') ] ] > > What kind of proposals (if any) have been for a different syntax which could give a more streamlined syntax? > > My own thinking has been around an alternative to the cascade semicolon. What symbol to use does not matter for me, but something like > json at: âtree' Âº > select: [ :e | ((e at: 'type') = 'blobâ)]Âº > collect: [:e | Path from: (e at: 'pathâ)]Âº > select: [ :p | p segments last > in: [ :name | (name endsWith: '.md') | (name endsWith: '.mic') ] ] > > Basically, a send the right hand expression to the result of the left hand expression. > > Has anyone ever tried this, or is it just one of the many small annoyances best left alone? > > Best, > > Kasper -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

Jan. 26, 2022

Re: Too many parenthesis - a matter of syntax

by Marcus Denker

But does this help? Now the simple nested query is some serious code. I, too, like the idea that a query expression like the one shown should have a nice syntaxâ¦ without the need for variables. I always thought that the nice collection API would be nicer if we could write them without parenthesis... How to do that right is of course not easy. There are experiments around, for example https://github.com/dvmason/Pharo-Functional > On 26 Jan 2022, at 11:11, Sebastian Jordan Montano <sebastian.jordan(a)inria.fr> wrote: > > I agree that the expression is unreadable. What I would initially do is to extract it into temporary variables. > Like: > > tree := json at: 'tree'. > blobs := tree select: [ :each | (each at: 'type') = 'blob' ]. > paths := blobs collect: [ :each | Path from: (each at: 'path')]). > ... > > After you can see if you can extract the logic into different classes or other methods. > > Sebastian > > De: "Richard Sargent" <richard.sargent(a)gemtalksystems.com> > Ã: "pharo-users" <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > EnvoyÃ©: Mercredi 26 Janvier 2022 09:55:30 > Objet: [Pharo-users] Re: Too many parenthesis - a matter of syntax > On Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 01:20 Kasper Osterbye <kasper.osterbye(a)gmail.com <mailto:kasper.osterbye@gmail.com>> wrote: > Cheers all > > I have noticed that I often ends up with quite a number of nested expressions, for example: > > (((json at: 'tree') > select: [ :e | (e at: 'type') = âblob' ]) > collect: [:e | Path from: (e at: 'path')]) > select: [ :p | p segments last > in: [ :name | (name endsWith: '.md') | (name endsWith: '.mic') ] ] > > What kind of proposals (if any) have been for a different syntax which could give a more streamlined syntax? > > What's written is basically unreadable and syntax changes won't help. > > Try taking out the constants and describing their relationship with a new message or a couple of messages. > > Without trying to understand it, it looks like you have some navigation followed by some filtering / suffix selection. > > Try to develop an expression that articulates the meaning of what you're doing. > > > My own thinking has been around an alternative to the cascade semicolon. What symbol to use does not matter for me, but something like > json at: âtree' Âº > select: [ :e | ((e at: 'type') = 'blobâ)]Âº > collect: [:e | Path from: (e at: 'pathâ)]Âº > select: [ :p | p segments last > in: [ :name | (name endsWith: '.md') | (name endsWith: '.mic') ] ] > > Basically, a send the right hand expression to the result of the left hand expression. > > Has anyone ever tried this, or is it just one of the many small annoyances best left alone? > > Best, > > Kasper >

Jan. 26, 2022

Re: Too many parenthesis - a matter of syntax

by Sebastian Jordan Montano

I agree that the expression is unreadable. What I would initially do is to extract it into temporary variables. Like: tree := json at: 'tree'. blobs := tree select: [ :each | (each at: 'type') = 'blob' ]. paths := blobs collect: [ :each | Path from: (each at: 'path')]). ... After you can see if you can extract the logic into different classes or other methods. Sebastian > De: "Richard Sargent" <richard.sargent(a)gemtalksystems.com> > Ã: "pharo-users" <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> > EnvoyÃ©: Mercredi 26 Janvier 2022 09:55:30 > Objet: [Pharo-users] Re: Too many parenthesis - a matter of syntax > On Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 01:20 Kasper Osterbye < [ mailto:kasper.osterbye@gmail.com > | kasper.osterbye(a)gmail.com ] > wrote: >> Cheers all >> I have noticed that I often ends up with quite a number of nested expressions, >> for example: >> (((json at: 'tree') >> select: [ :e | (e at: 'type') = âblob' ]) >> collect: [:e | Path from: (e at: 'path')]) >> select: [ :p | p segments last >> in: [ :name | (name endsWith: '.md') | (name endsWith: '.mic') ] ] >> What kind of proposals (if any) have been for a different syntax which could >> give a more streamlined syntax? > What's written is basically unreadable and syntax changes won't help. > Try taking out the constants and describing their relationship with a new > message or a couple of messages. > Without trying to understand it, it looks like you have some navigation followed > by some filtering / suffix selection. > Try to develop an expression that articulates the meaning of what you're doing. >> My own thinking has been around an alternative to the cascade semicolon. What >> symbol to use does not matter for me, but something like >> json at: âtree' Âº >> select: [ :e | ((e at: 'type') = 'blobâ)]Âº >> collect: [:e | Path from: (e at: 'pathâ)]Âº >> select: [ :p | p segments last >> in: [ :name | (name endsWith: '.md') | (name endsWith: '.mic') ] ] >> Basically, a send the right hand expression to the result of the left hand >> expression. >> Has anyone ever tried this, or is it just one of the many small annoyances best >> left alone? >> Best, >> Kasper

Jan. 26, 2022

Re: Too many parenthesis - a matter of syntax

by Richard Sargent

On Wed, Jan 26, 2022, 01:20 Kasper Osterbye <kasper.osterbye(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Cheers all > > I have noticed that I often ends up with quite a number of nested > expressions, for example: > > (((json at: 'tree') > select: [ :e | (e at: 'type') = âblob' ]) > collect: [:e | Path from: (e at: 'path')]) > select: [ :p | p segments last > in: [ :name | (name endsWith: '.md') | > (name endsWith: '.mic') ] ] > > What kind of proposals (if any) have been for a different syntax which > could give a more streamlined syntax? > What's written is basically unreadable and syntax changes won't help. Try taking out the constants and describing their relationship with a new message or a couple of messages. Without trying to understand it, it looks like you have some navigation followed by some filtering / suffix selection. Try to develop an expression that articulates the meaning of what you're doing. > My own thinking has been around an alternative to the cascade semicolon. > What symbol to use does not matter for me, but something like > json at: âtree' Âº > select: [ :e | ((e at: 'type') = 'blobâ)]Âº > collect: [:e | Path from: (e at: 'pathâ)]Âº > select: [ :p | p segments last > in: [ :name | (name endsWith: '.md') | (name endsWith: > '.mic') ] ] > > Basically, a send the right hand expression to the result of the left hand > expression. > > Has anyone ever tried this, or is it just one of the many small annoyances > best left alone? > > Best, > > Kasper

Jan. 26, 2022

Too many parenthesis - a matter of syntax

by Kasper Osterbye

Cheers all I have noticed that I often ends up with quite a number of nested expressions, for example: (((json at: 'tree') select: [ :e | (e at: 'type') = âblob' ]) collect: [:e | Path from: (e at: 'path')]) select: [ :p | p segments last in: [ :name | (name endsWith: '.md') | (name endsWith: '.mic') ] ] What kind of proposals (if any) have been for a different syntax which could give a more streamlined syntax? My own thinking has been around an alternative to the cascade semicolon. What symbol to use does not matter for me, but something like json at: âtree' Âº select: [ :e | ((e at: 'type') = 'blobâ)]Âº collect: [:e | Path from: (e at: 'pathâ)]Âº select: [ :p | p segments last in: [ :name | (name endsWith: '.md') | (name endsWith: '.mic') ] ] Basically, a send the right hand expression to the result of the left hand expression. Has anyone ever tried this, or is it just one of the many small annoyances best left alone? Best, Kasper

Jan. 26, 2022

Re: UK Smalltalk User Group Meeting - Wednesday, January 26th

by James Foster

You are right that it is at 11:00 AM PST. I clicked on the link and didnât recognize that the web site set the time to my local timezone. Very nice! > On Jan 18, 2022, at 9:56 AM, Martin McClure <martin.mcclure(a)gemtalksystems.com> wrote: > > I believe this will be recorded. > And for someone it will be at 3AM. > In your time zone, James, I believe it will be at 11AM. > > Regards, > -Martin > > On 1/18/22 07:55, James Foster wrote: >> Will this be recorded for later viewing (for those of us who would prefer to be asleep at 3am)? >> >> James >> >>> On Jan 17, 2022, at 2:30 PM, Giovanni Corriga <giovanni(a)corriga.net <mailto:giovanni@corriga.net>> wrote: >>> >>> For our January meeting, we'll be hosting GemTalk's Martin McClure who will talk about a new Smalltalk IDE - Sparkle. >>> >>> If you're setting out to develop a Smalltalk IDE from scratch, what design decisions do you make? You'd love to "fix" the things that have long annoyed you in existing IDEs, but new designs risk creating their own novel annoyances. >>> The Sparkle project-in-progress is creating a new and not entirely conventional development environment for GemStone Smalltalk. Come see factors that have influenced its design, get a demo of the current state of the tools, learn about the project's next steps, and share *your* IDE annoyances. >>> >>> Martin heard about Smalltalk in 1975, *finally* got his hands on a running Smalltalk system ten years later, and hasn't let go since. In his 25 years on the GemStone team, Martin has worked on many aspects - some VM internals, some user interface design, but mostly all the things that go in between. In his rare spare time, he works on Mist, a Smalltalk variant with improved modularity and no virtual machine. When not dodging Covid, he does a lot of contra and country dancing. >>> >>> This will be an online meeting from home. >>> >>> If you'd like to join us, please sign up in advance on the meeting's Meetup page ( https://www.meetup.com/UKSTUG/events/282299228/ <https://www.meetup.com/UKSTUG/events/282299228/> ) to receive the meeting details. Donât forget to bring your laptop and drinks! >>> >> >

Jan. 18, 2022

Re: UK Smalltalk User Group Meeting - Wednesday, January 26th

by Bruce O'Neel

Hi, Past recordings have appeared here reasonably quickly after the event. UK Smalltalk User Group (vimeo.com) [https://vimeo.com/ukstug] cheers bruce On 2022-01-18T16:55:37.000+01:00, James Foster <smalltalk(a)jgfoster.net> wrote: >Â WillÂ thisÂ beÂ recordedÂ forÂ laterÂ viewingÂ (forÂ thoseÂ ofÂ usÂ whoÂ would >Â preferÂ toÂ beÂ asleepÂ atÂ 3am)? >Â >Â James >Â >>Â Â OnÂ JanÂ 17,Â 2022,Â atÂ 2:30Â PM,Â GiovanniÂ Corriga >>Â Â <giovanni(a)corriga.net>Â wrote: >>Â Â >>Â Â ForÂ ourÂ JanuaryÂ meeting,Â we'llÂ beÂ hostingÂ GemTalk'sÂ MartinÂ McClure >>Â Â whoÂ willÂ talkÂ aboutÂ aÂ newÂ SmalltalkÂ IDEÂ -Â Sparkle. >>Â Â >>Â Â IfÂ you'reÂ settingÂ outÂ toÂ developÂ aÂ SmalltalkÂ IDEÂ fromÂ scratch, >>Â Â whatÂ designÂ decisionsÂ doÂ youÂ make?Â You'dÂ loveÂ toÂ "fix"Â theÂ things >>Â Â thatÂ haveÂ longÂ annoyedÂ youÂ inÂ existingÂ IDEs,Â butÂ newÂ designsÂ risk >>Â Â creatingÂ theirÂ ownÂ novelÂ annoyances. >>Â Â TheÂ SparkleÂ project-in-progressÂ isÂ creatingÂ aÂ newÂ andÂ notÂ entirely >>Â Â conventionalÂ developmentÂ environmentÂ forÂ GemStoneÂ Smalltalk.Â Come >>Â Â seeÂ factorsÂ thatÂ haveÂ influencedÂ itsÂ design,Â getÂ aÂ demoÂ ofÂ the >>Â Â currentÂ stateÂ ofÂ theÂ tools,Â learnÂ aboutÂ theÂ project'sÂ nextÂ steps, >>Â Â andÂ shareÂ *your*Â IDEÂ annoyances. >>Â Â >>Â Â MartinÂ heardÂ aboutÂ SmalltalkÂ inÂ 1975,Â *finally*Â gotÂ hisÂ handsÂ onÂ a >>Â Â runningÂ SmalltalkÂ systemÂ tenÂ yearsÂ later,Â andÂ hasn'tÂ letÂ goÂ since. >>Â Â InÂ hisÂ 25Â yearsÂ onÂ theÂ GemStoneÂ team,Â MartinÂ hasÂ workedÂ onÂ many >>Â Â aspectsÂ -Â someÂ VMÂ internals,Â someÂ userÂ interfaceÂ design,Â but >>Â Â mostlyÂ allÂ theÂ thingsÂ thatÂ goÂ inÂ between.Â InÂ hisÂ rareÂ spareÂ time, >>Â Â heÂ worksÂ onÂ Mist,Â aÂ SmalltalkÂ variantÂ withÂ improvedÂ modularityÂ and >>Â Â noÂ virtualÂ machine.Â WhenÂ notÂ dodgingÂ Covid,Â heÂ doesÂ aÂ lotÂ of >>Â Â contraÂ andÂ countryÂ dancing. >>Â Â >>Â Â ThisÂ willÂ beÂ anÂ onlineÂ meetingÂ fromÂ home. >>Â Â >>Â Â IfÂ you'dÂ likeÂ toÂ joinÂ us,Â pleaseÂ signÂ upÂ inÂ advanceÂ onÂ the >>Â Â meeting'sÂ MeetupÂ page >>Â Â (Â https://www.meetup.com/UKSTUG/events/282299228/Â )Â toÂ receive >>Â Â theÂ meetingÂ details.Â DonâtÂ forgetÂ toÂ bringÂ yourÂ laptopÂ and >>Â Â drinks!

Jan. 18, 2022