July 2021 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: The Greatest Contributors to Smalltalk since 1980

by vinref＠gmail.com

The most visible Smalltalk at the moment/last 5 years and in my estimation what/the only thing that drives new users to come to Smalltalk is Pharo, and the person that is most responsible for that is Stephane Ducasse. I think his contribution to Smalltalk as a whole is underrated. The commercial Smalltalks exist only to server their legacy client base and others like Squeak and Dolphin are nice but are invisible. The late and great James Robertson should not be forgotten. He promoted all Smalltalks with enthusiasm and expertise. I miss his podcasts. I have a soft spot for Dolphin. I agree with Richard OâKeefe about Dolphin. It is beautiful as well and well-esigned, and the creators Blair McGlashan and Andy Bower deserve some recognition for their work. Vince

July 25, 2021

Re: The Greatest Contributors to Smalltalk since 1980

by Richard O'Keefe

I'd like to call Stephan Ducasse for special mention for providing the free Smalltalk books site. And I'd like to mention all the other people who contributed to the Squeak books and the continuing Pharo documentation work. Producing good documentation is hard work and when you're not being paid for it, reveals a deep commitment to the community of users. Nobody else has mentioned Claus Gittinger of Smalltalk/X, a fine system. Then there is Dolphin, which is the most beautiful Smalltalk I've ever come across, and which is the only reason I bother running Windows on any machine. There is innovative work in both systems. perhaps the world's most *beautiful* Smalltalk system, the worst feature of which is being Windows-only. On Sun, 25 Jul 2021 at 21:00, Clacton Server <david(a)totallyobjects.com> wrote: > > Eric Clayberg - John OâKeefe?? > > On 25 Jul 2021, at 09:33, Richard Sargent <rsargent(a)5x5.on.ca> wrote: > > Dave Thomas of OTI probably ranks in your list. > > On July 24, 2021 3:44:40 PM PDT, horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com wrote: >> >> Iâm looking for a list of individuals who have contributed greatly to the advancement of Smalltalk, post Xerox PARC period (1972-1980). By advancement, I donât only mean on a technical basis but on an educational or public awareness basis (this could include books, podcasts, talk circuit, video instruction, etc.). Any basis that has made Smalltalk a success in the marketplace (including commercialization). >> >> I posted this question on LinkedIn and got one useful response: the late James Robertson. >> >> My personal nomination is Kent Beck. >> >> Iâm not that familiar with the deep history of Smalltalk, so Iâm looking for more nominations. >> >> Thanks. > >

July 25, 2021

Re: The Greatest Contributors to Smalltalk since 1980

by David Pennington

If you knew Digitalk then remember the contribution that Eric Clayberg provided through the old Compuserve forums. A lot of us would never have got started if we hadnât had that support. Ericâs knowledge and help got me going back with Mac System 7 and Digitalk back in 1990. David > On 25 Jul 2021, at 16:29, Russ Whaley <whaley.russ(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I agree wholeheartedly with Tim. I first started with Smalltalk in the Digitalk days. My experience then and throughout my Smalltalk experience with VW, Squeak, etc., I have never had a community that helped me learn and embrace Smalltalk like Pharo and the Pharo Community. To me, if I cannot be successful with the product, I doesnât really matter how great it is and who is involved (again, to me). The Pharo community has been so helpful and responsive, I feel very successful with my Smalltalk projects - and while there have been many who have helped from the community, I most often lean on Stephan Ducasse and Esteban Lorenzano for their Pharo documentation (Pharo books), content, ideas and support. > > Thanks! > Russ > > On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 10:31 AM Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > Isnât this the wrong question to ask? Iâm assuming this is to do with Smalltalkâs 50th anniversary, and of course we are grateful to those early pioneers who did lots of work in the field 20-30 years ago but to me thatâs the old history and while itâs interesting to call out, it doesnât shed life on the day to day energy we have today - whst keeps Smalltalk alive and current. > > Iâd like to nominate the Pharo community - being brave enough to fork when it was felt that doing something different was interesting enough to take the flack for it. But more than this, so many people have continued to contribute - teach, fix, pioneer etc. Particularly when there are so many other languages and movements you can follow - continuing the vision of a simple, malleable system that everyone can understand and fix is commendable. > > If you really want a name - Iâd say Stephan Ducasse and Marcus Denker - I heard them stand up at Esug 2007 (Lugano) and really call out a vision for a malleable environment that was Smalltalk inspired but would let them properly experiment with new language ideas (I recall in particular the reference to reified inst var slots to let them manipulate programs more easily when experimenting). This was possibly the foreshadow to Pharo, and it took about 10 years of incremental improvements to achieve that exciting 2007 vision that I recall painted at the time. It certainly didnât happen in a day , and itâs still happening now as we read this, and the job is still not done. > > But in a way Iâm kind of reluctant to name, names as so many people have piled in around that community vision to make something that will continue to live and experiment. But to Stephan/Marcus and everyone else - hats off to you for creating something that is fun and productive to use, but more importantly is inspiring enough to contribute to. > > Tim > >> On 25 Jul 2021, at 11:00, Clacton Server <david(a)totallyobjects.com <mailto:david@totallyobjects.com>> wrote: >> >> ï»¿Eric Clayberg - John OâKeefe?? > >> >> >>> On 25 Jul 2021, at 09:33, Richard Sargent <rsargent(a)5x5.on.ca <mailto:rsargent@5x5.on.ca>> wrote: >>> >>> Dave Thomas of OTI probably ranks in your list. >>> >>> On July 24, 2021 3:44:40 PM PDT, horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com <mailto:horrido.hobbies@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Iâm looking for a list of individuals who have contributed greatly to the advancement of Smalltalk, post Xerox PARC period (1972-1980). By advancement, I donât only mean on a technical basis but on an educational or public awareness basis (this could include books, podcasts, talk circuit, video instruction, etc.). Any basis that has made Smalltalk a success in the marketplace (including commercialization). >>> >>> I posted this question on LinkedIn and got one useful response: the late James Robertson. >>> >>> My personal nomination is Kent Beck. >>> >>> Iâm not that familiar with the deep history of Smalltalk, so Iâm looking for more nominations. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >> > -- > Russ Whaley > whaley.russ(a)gmail.com <mailto:whaley.russ@gmail.com>

July 25, 2021

Re: The Greatest Contributors to Smalltalk since 1980

by Eric Gade

In terms of widespread availability and durability across implementations, the guys that made Seaside deserve a big shout out. On Sun, Jul 25, 2021, 11:54 Esteban Maringolo <emaringolo(a)gmail.com> wrote: > On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 11:31 AM Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > > Isnât this the wrong question to ask? Iâm assuming this is to do with > Smalltalkâs 50th anniversary, and of course we are grateful to those early > pioneers who did lots of work in the field 20-30 years ago but to me thatâs > the old history and while itâs interesting to call out, it doesnât shed > life on the day to day energy we have today - whst keeps Smalltalk alive > and current. > > Hi share the view, it's the wrong question, and it pursues that "hero > worshipping" culture that is already dead (or at least outdated) since > a long time ago. > > Additionally, I don't share the "keeping Smalltalk alive" expression, > as if dying was its inevitable outcome. I haven't heard "keeping LISP > alive" (and I don't call LISP as dead either). It would be > self-deceiving to call ourselves mainstream, but that doesn't mean > we're doomed somehow. > > So in 50 years we should celebrate the half-century, remember the > history, look at what we did "wrong", and focus on looking forward, > because "the best way to predict the future is to invent it" ;-) > > Regards! > > > Esteban A. Maringolo >

July 25, 2021

Re: The Greatest Contributors to Smalltalk since 1980

by Esteban Maringolo

On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 11:31 AM Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > Isnât this the wrong question to ask? Iâm assuming this is to do with Smalltalkâs 50th anniversary, and of course we are grateful to those early pioneers who did lots of work in the field 20-30 years ago but to me thatâs the old history and while itâs interesting to call out, it doesnât shed life on the day to day energy we have today - whst keeps Smalltalk alive and current. Hi share the view, it's the wrong question, and it pursues that "hero worshipping" culture that is already dead (or at least outdated) since a long time ago. Additionally, I don't share the "keeping Smalltalk alive" expression, as if dying was its inevitable outcome. I haven't heard "keeping LISP alive" (and I don't call LISP as dead either). It would be self-deceiving to call ourselves mainstream, but that doesn't mean we're doomed somehow. So in 50 years we should celebrate the half-century, remember the history, look at what we did "wrong", and focus on looking forward, because "the best way to predict the future is to invent it" ;-) Regards! Esteban A. Maringolo

July 25, 2021

Re: The Greatest Contributors to Smalltalk since 1980

by Russ Whaley

I agree wholeheartedly with Tim. I first started with Smalltalk in the Digitalk days. My experience then and throughout my Smalltalk experience with VW, Squeak, etc., I have never had a community that helped me learn and embrace Smalltalk like Pharo and the Pharo Community. To me, if I cannot be successful with the product, I doesnât really matter how great it is and who is involved (again, to me). The Pharo community has been so helpful and responsive, I feel very successful with my Smalltalk projects - and while there have been many who have helped from the community, I most often lean on Stephan Ducasse and Esteban Lorenzano for their Pharo documentation (Pharo books), content, ideas and support. Thanks! Russ On Sun, Jul 25, 2021 at 10:31 AM Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > Isnât this the wrong question to ask? Iâm assuming this is to do with > Smalltalkâs 50th anniversary, and of course we are grateful to those early > pioneers who did lots of work in the field 20-30 years ago but to me thatâs > the old history and while itâs interesting to call out, it doesnât shed > life on the day to day energy we have today - whst keeps Smalltalk alive > and current. > > Iâd like to nominate the Pharo community - being brave enough to fork when > it was felt that doing something different was interesting enough to take > the flack for it. But more than this, so many people have continued to > contribute - teach, fix, pioneer etc. Particularly when there are so many > other languages and movements you can follow - continuing the vision of a > simple, malleable system that everyone can understand and fix is > commendable. > > If you really want a name - Iâd say Stephan Ducasse and Marcus Denker - I > heard them stand up at Esug 2007 (Lugano) and really call out a vision for > a malleable environment that was Smalltalk inspired but would let them > properly experiment with new language ideas (I recall in particular the > reference to reified inst var slots to let them manipulate programs more > easily when experimenting). This was possibly the foreshadow to Pharo, and > it took about 10 years of incremental improvements to achieve that exciting > 2007 vision that I recall painted at the time. It certainly didnât happen > in a day , and itâs still happening now as we read this, and the job is > still not done. > > But in a way Iâm kind of reluctant to name, names as so many people have > piled in around that community vision to make something that will continue > to live and experiment. But to Stephan/Marcus and everyone else - hats off > to you for creating something that is fun and productive to use, but more > importantly is inspiring enough to contribute to. > > Tim > > On 25 Jul 2021, at 11:00, Clacton Server <david(a)totallyobjects.com> wrote: > > ï»¿Eric Clayberg - John OâKeefe?? > > > > On 25 Jul 2021, at 09:33, Richard Sargent <rsargent(a)5x5.on.ca> wrote: > > Dave Thomas of OTI probably ranks in your list. > > On July 24, 2021 3:44:40 PM PDT, horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com wrote: >> >> Iâm looking for a list of individuals who have contributed greatly to the >> advancement of Smalltalk, post Xerox PARC period (1972-1980). By >> advancement, I donât only mean on a technical basis but on an educational >> or public awareness basis (this could include books, podcasts, talk >> circuit, video instruction, etc.). Any basis that has made Smalltalk a >> success in the marketplace (including commercialization). >> >> I posted this question on LinkedIn and got one useful response: the late >> James Robertson. >> >> My personal nomination is Kent Beck. >> >> Iâm not that familiar with the deep history of Smalltalk, so Iâm looking >> for more nominations. >> >> Thanks. >> > > -- Russ Whaley whaley.russ(a)gmail.com

July 25, 2021

Re: The Greatest Contributors to Smalltalk since 1980

by Tim Mackinnon

ï»¿ I forgot to mention in my answer - this should in no way detract from the visions of other projects some of which Iâm less familiar with - Squeak, Cuis, GT, SqueakJS, Livey, Caffeineâ¦ Iâm in awe of all of themâ¦ And I think thatâs my point - itâs the communities and the work they do to promote a live, simple, fun and feature rich coding experience that we should all celebrate. Tim > On 25 Jul 2021, at 16:30, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > ï»¿ > Isnât this the wrong question to ask? Iâm assuming this is to do with Smalltalkâs 50th anniversary, and of course we are grateful to those early pioneers who did lots of work in the field 20-30 years ago but to me thatâs the old history and while itâs interesting to call out, it doesnât shed life on the day to day energy we have today - whst keeps Smalltalk alive and current. > > Iâd like to nominate the Pharo community - being brave enough to fork when it was felt that doing something different was interesting enough to take the flack for it. But more than this, so many people have continued to contribute - teach, fix, pioneer etc. Particularly when there are so many other languages and movements you can follow - continuing the vision of a simple, malleable system that everyone can understand and fix is commendable. > > If you really want a name - Iâd say Stephan Ducasse and Marcus Denker - I heard them stand up at Esug 2007 (Lugano) and really call out a vision for a malleable environment that was Smalltalk inspired but would let them properly experiment with new language ideas (I recall in particular the reference to reified inst var slots to let them manipulate programs more easily when experimenting). This was possibly the foreshadow to Pharo, and it took about 10 years of incremental improvements to achieve that exciting 2007 vision that I recall painted at the time. It certainly didnât happen in a day , and itâs still happening now as we read this, and the job is still not done. > > But in a way Iâm kind of reluctant to name, names as so many people have piled in around that community vision to make something that will continue to live and experiment. But to Stephan/Marcus and everyone else - hats off to you for creating something that is fun and productive to use, but more importantly is inspiring enough to contribute to. > > Tim > >> On 25 Jul 2021, at 11:00, Clacton Server <david(a)totallyobjects.com> wrote: >> ï»¿Eric Clayberg - John OâKeefe?? >> >>> On 25 Jul 2021, at 09:33, Richard Sargent <rsargent(a)5x5.on.ca> wrote: >>> >>> Dave Thomas of OTI probably ranks in your list. >>> >>> On July 24, 2021 3:44:40 PM PDT, horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com wrote: >>>> >>>> Iâm looking for a list of individuals who have contributed greatly to the advancement of Smalltalk, post Xerox PARC period (1972-1980). By advancement, I donât only mean on a technical basis but on an educational or public awareness basis (this could include books, podcasts, talk circuit, video instruction, etc.). Any basis that has made Smalltalk a success in the marketplace (including commercialization). >>>> >>>> I posted this question on LinkedIn and got one useful response: the late James Robertson. >>>> >>>> My personal nomination is Kent Beck. >>>> >>>> Iâm not that familiar with the deep history of Smalltalk, so Iâm looking for more nominations. >>>> >>>> Thanks.

July 25, 2021

Re: The Greatest Contributors to Smalltalk since 1980

by Tim Mackinnon

Isnât this the wrong question to ask? Iâm assuming this is to do with Smalltalkâs 50th anniversary, and of course we are grateful to those early pioneers who did lots of work in the field 20-30 years ago but to me thatâs the old history and while itâs interesting to call out, it doesnât shed life on the day to day energy we have today - whst keeps Smalltalk alive and current. Iâd like to nominate the Pharo community - being brave enough to fork when it was felt that doing something different was interesting enough to take the flack for it. But more than this, so many people have continued to contribute - teach, fix, pioneer etc. Particularly when there are so many other languages and movements you can follow - continuing the vision of a simple, malleable system that everyone can understand and fix is commendable. If you really want a name - Iâd say Stephan Ducasse and Marcus Denker - I heard them stand up at Esug 2007 (Lugano) and really call out a vision for a malleable environment that was Smalltalk inspired but would let them properly experiment with new language ideas (I recall in particular the reference to reified inst var slots to let them manipulate programs more easily when experimenting). This was possibly the foreshadow to Pharo, and it took about 10 years of incremental improvements to achieve that exciting 2007 vision that I recall painted at the time. It certainly didnât happen in a day , and itâs still happening now as we read this, and the job is still not done. But in a way Iâm kind of reluctant to name, names as so many people have piled in around that community vision to make something that will continue to live and experiment. But to Stephan/Marcus and everyone else - hats off to you for creating something that is fun and productive to use, but more importantly is inspiring enough to contribute to. Tim > On 25 Jul 2021, at 11:00, Clacton Server <david(a)totallyobjects.com> wrote: > > ï»¿Eric Clayberg - John OâKeefe?? > >> On 25 Jul 2021, at 09:33, Richard Sargent <rsargent(a)5x5.on.ca> wrote: >> >> Dave Thomas of OTI probably ranks in your list. >> >>> On July 24, 2021 3:44:40 PM PDT, horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com wrote: >>> Iâm looking for a list of individuals who have contributed greatly to the advancement of Smalltalk, post Xerox PARC period (1972-1980). By advancement, I donât only mean on a technical basis but on an educational or public awareness basis (this could include books, podcasts, talk circuit, video instruction, etc.). Any basis that has made Smalltalk a success in the marketplace (including commercialization). >>> >>> I posted this question on LinkedIn and got one useful response: the late James Robertson. >>> >>> My personal nomination is Kent Beck. >>> >>> Iâm not that familiar with the deep history of Smalltalk, so Iâm looking for more nominations. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >

July 25, 2021

Re: The Greatest Contributors to Smalltalk since 1980

by Clacton Server

Eric Clayberg - John OâKeefe?? > On 25 Jul 2021, at 09:33, Richard Sargent <rsargent(a)5x5.on.ca> wrote: > > Dave Thomas of OTI probably ranks in your list. > > On July 24, 2021 3:44:40 PM PDT, horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com wrote: > Iâm looking for a list of individuals who have contributed greatly to the advancement of Smalltalk, post Xerox PARC period (1972-1980). By advancement, I donât only mean on a technical basis but on an educational or public awareness basis (this could include books, podcasts, talk circuit, video instruction, etc.). Any basis that has made Smalltalk a success in the marketplace (including commercialization). > > I posted this question on LinkedIn and got one useful response: the late James Robertson. > > My personal nomination is Kent Beck. > > Iâm not that familiar with the deep history of Smalltalk, so Iâm looking for more nominations. > > Thanks. >

July 25, 2021

Re: The Greatest Contributors to Smalltalk since 1980

by Richard Sargent

Dave Thomas of OTI probably ranks in your list. On July 24, 2021 3:44:40 PM PDT, horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com wrote: >Iâm looking for a list of individuals who have contributed greatly to >the advancement of Smalltalk, post Xerox PARC period (1972-1980). By >advancement, I donât only mean on a technical basis but on an >educational or public awareness basis (this could include books, >podcasts, talk circuit, video instruction, etc.). Any basis that has >made Smalltalk a success in the marketplace (including >commercialization). > >I posted this question on LinkedIn and got one useful response: the >late James Robertson. > >My personal nomination is Kent Beck. > >Iâm not that familiar with the deep history of Smalltalk, so Iâm >looking for more nominations. > >Thanks.

July 25, 2021