August 2020 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Smalltalk's Successor

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Ok please accept my apologies if I hurt you. My point richard is that you can have an impact on Pharo. It is easy if you design libraries running on top of Pharo and make them public. S. > On 13 Aug 2020, at 03:44, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Am I starting to hallucinate, or did I read some time in the last year that there are plans for a "long term stability" branch of Pharo? That had me giving thanks. Pharo is splendid, and that will give us the best of both worlds: a stable base for development WITHOUT holding back development of Pharo itself. > > I think StÃ©phane Ducasse may have completely misunderstood me. I wonder what he thinks my "choice" is? The only choice I'm aware of making is to continue being engaged with Pharo. (Hint: I am not on the Squeak mailing list. I don't even know if there is one any more.) The unpleasantly disparate nature of "Smalltalk" does not make *Pharo* a bad choice, it just means that anyone who develops in Pharo with the aim of deploying in VW is facing a much harder task than they might have been led to expect. > > I would also like to praise S.D. and his merry band for > (a) the free Smalltalk books > (b) the continuing series of books specifically about Pharo. > Is there some way I can contribute to the Pharo book(let)s? > I'm not too bad at proof-reading. > > > > > > On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 at 01:43, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr <mailto:stephane.ducasse@inria.fr>> wrote: > "Protect me from my friends I will deal with my ennemies." > > Pharo is Pharo. > > The smalltalk community likes to complain but we prefer to invent the future. > For the record we are helping companies to DELIVER and we are engaging > any people that want to invent the future with us. > > I have often the impression that having success is bad in this wonderful communauty > > Horrido canât you spend your energy in something more productive? > What a drag? > > Richard OâKeefe, this is a pity because we will never learn much from your experience. > Anyway this is your choice but a strange one. > > I would love to have a type inferencer for Pharo. > > Sorry no time to spend more time on this. > > S. > > I did not do Pharo for ego I did it because else I would have join Lua or Python > because Squeak and VW were killing my Smalltalk flame. > I prefer doing than talking. -------------------------------------------- StÃ©phane Ducasse http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr / http://www.pharo.org 03 59 35 87 52 Assistant: Aurore Dalle FAX 03 59 57 78 50 TEL 03 59 35 86 16 S. Ducasse - Inria 40, avenue Halley, Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, BÃ¢t.A, Park Plaza Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 France

Aug. 13, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Smalltalk's Successor

by Richard O'Keefe

One other point. When I saw the subject line "Smalltalk's successor", I expected to read that *Pharo* already is Smalltalk's successor, what with traits and GT and direct support for Git &c. I think "The future of Smalltalk is not far-off it's Pharo and it's here" is a claim that could well be made. On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 at 13:44, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Am I starting to hallucinate, or did I read some time in the last year > that there are plans for a "long term stability" branch of Pharo? That had > me giving thanks. Pharo is splendid, and that will give us the best of > both worlds: a stable base for development WITHOUT holding back development > of Pharo itself. > > I think StÃ©phane Ducasse may have completely misunderstood me. I wonder > what he thinks my "choice" is? The only choice I'm aware of making is to > continue being engaged with Pharo. (Hint: I am not on the Squeak mailing > list. I don't even know if there is one any more.) The unpleasantly > disparate nature of "Smalltalk" does not make *Pharo* a bad choice, it just > means that anyone who develops in Pharo with the aim of deploying in VW is > facing a much harder task than they might have been led to expect. > > I would also like to praise S.D. and his merry band for > (a) the free Smalltalk books > (b) the continuing series of books specifically about Pharo. > Is there some way I can contribute to the Pharo book(let)s? > I'm not too bad at proof-reading. > > > > > > On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 at 01:43, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > wrote: > >> "Protect me from my friends I will deal with my ennemies." >> >> Pharo is Pharo. >> >> The smalltalk community likes to complain but we prefer to invent >> the future. >> For the record we are helping companies to DELIVER and we are >> engaging >> any people that want to invent the future with us. >> >> I have often the impression that having success is bad in this >> wonderful communauty >> >> Horrido canât you spend your energy in something more productive? >> What a drag? >> >> Richard OâKeefe, this is a pity because we will never learn much >> from your experience. >> Anyway this is your choice but a strange one. >> >> I would love to have a type inferencer for Pharo. >> >> Sorry no time to spend more time on this. >> >> S. >> >> I did not do Pharo for ego I did it because else I would have join Lua or >> Python >> because Squeak and VW were killing my Smalltalk flame. >> I prefer doing than talking. >> >

Aug. 13, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Smalltalk's Successor

by Richard O'Keefe

Am I starting to hallucinate, or did I read some time in the last year that there are plans for a "long term stability" branch of Pharo? That had me giving thanks. Pharo is splendid, and that will give us the best of both worlds: a stable base for development WITHOUT holding back development of Pharo itself. I think StÃ©phane Ducasse may have completely misunderstood me. I wonder what he thinks my "choice" is? The only choice I'm aware of making is to continue being engaged with Pharo. (Hint: I am not on the Squeak mailing list. I don't even know if there is one any more.) The unpleasantly disparate nature of "Smalltalk" does not make *Pharo* a bad choice, it just means that anyone who develops in Pharo with the aim of deploying in VW is facing a much harder task than they might have been led to expect. I would also like to praise S.D. and his merry band for (a) the free Smalltalk books (b) the continuing series of books specifically about Pharo. Is there some way I can contribute to the Pharo book(let)s? I'm not too bad at proof-reading. On Thu, 13 Aug 2020 at 01:43, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > "Protect me from my friends I will deal with my ennemies." > > Pharo is Pharo. > > The smalltalk community likes to complain but we prefer to invent > the future. > For the record we are helping companies to DELIVER and we are > engaging > any people that want to invent the future with us. > > I have often the impression that having success is bad in this > wonderful communauty > > Horrido canât you spend your energy in something more productive? > What a drag? > > Richard OâKeefe, this is a pity because we will never learn much > from your experience. > Anyway this is your choice but a strange one. > > I would love to have a type inferencer for Pharo. > > Sorry no time to spend more time on this. > > S. > > I did not do Pharo for ego I did it because else I would have join Lua or > Python > because Squeak and VW were killing my Smalltalk flame. > I prefer doing than talking. >

Aug. 13, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Smalltalk's Successor

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

> On 12 Aug 2020, at 19:27, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > You are quite right, which is why I'm retiring as Smalltalk evangelist. There > is simply nothing more I can say about Smalltalk. Over the last 5 years, > I've said everything there is to say and I've said them in every way > imaginable. What I see is in fact that you believed that you impact doing your kind of dull propaganda. You could have probably a lot more impact developing a couple of nice libraries (I have tons of ideas) or to write some little book chapters. > My last act as Smalltalk evangelist will be Camp Smalltalk Supreme in 2022. > Then I shall spend the remainder of my days searching for personal > enlightenment. I wish it to you. Now my state of mind is that we can always learn something and we can always do something small but that it an improvement. You believed that advocating smalltalk will resurrect. It wont. > > Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas-2 wrote >> I see that your articles tend to reiterate the same points time and >> again about Smalltalk (historicity, simplicity, agility, proven record), >> which can be fine for a new comer to it, but gets old for the people who >> is actually engaging with reading you. > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > -------------------------------------------- StÃ©phane Ducasse http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr / http://www.pharo.org 03 59 35 87 52 Assistant: Aurore Dalle FAX 03 59 57 78 50 TEL 03 59 35 86 16 S. Ducasse - Inria 40, avenue Halley, Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, BÃ¢t.A, Park Plaza Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 France

Aug. 12, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Smalltalk's Successor

by horrido

You are quite right, which is why I'm retiring as Smalltalk evangelist. There is simply nothing more I can say about Smalltalk. Over the last 5 years, I've said everything there is to say and I've said them in every way imaginable. My last act as Smalltalk evangelist will be Camp Smalltalk Supreme in 2022. Then I shall spend the remainder of my days searching for personal enlightenment. Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas-2 wrote > I see that your articles tend to reiterate the same points time and > again about Smalltalk (historicity, simplicity, agility, proven record), > which can be fine for a new comer to it, but gets old for the people who > is actually engaging with reading you. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Aug. 12, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Smalltalk's Successor

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

"Protect me from my friends I will deal with my ennemies." Pharo is Pharo. The smalltalk community likes to complain but we prefer to invent the future. For the record we are helping companies to DELIVER and we are engaging any people that want to invent the future with us. I have often the impression that having success is bad in this wonderful communauty Horrido canât you spend your energy in something more productive? What a drag? Richard OâKeefe, this is a pity because we will never learn much from your experience. Anyway this is your choice but a strange one. I would love to have a type inferencer for Pharo. Sorry no time to spend more time on this. S. I did not do Pharo for ego I did it because else I would have join Lua or Python because Squeak and VW were killing my Smalltalk flame. I prefer doing than talking.

Aug. 12, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Smalltalk's Successor

by Konrad Hinsen

Am 12.08.20 um 06:28 schrieb Richard O'Keefe: > The contrast between "flexibility of choice" and "tyranny of one > standard" is, um, a little over-drawn.Â I have three different Common > Lisp systems on this laptop: CMUCL, SBCL, and CCL.Â I have the > flexibility of choice between them *because* the adhere to a common > standard.Â Each of them has its own extra bits, but I am free to choose > between them because everything *else* is not idiosyncratic. Very true. Software tends to form high stacks with many layers of dependencies. Productive work on any given layer requires stability in the layers below. But if anyone depends on *your* work, that's a constraint on your freedom to innovate. Smalltalk today is in the same situation as Scheme (but unlike Common Lisp): there are more people interested in evolving Smalltalk than people building applications on top of Smalltalk. And that makes Smalltalk unattractive for those application builders for whom the progress in the quality of their tools is not worth the cost of the diversity and instability that require constant attention. It all depends on what you are working on, and in particular on the time scale of evolution of your work. If your application's requirement change rapidly, it's easier to deal with an unstable platform than if you are working on a complex design to be used over decades. Konrad.

Aug. 12, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] Smalltalk's Successor

by Richard O'Keefe

The contrast between "flexibility of choice" and "tyranny of one standard" is, um, a little over-drawn. I have three different Common Lisp systems on this laptop: CMUCL, SBCL, and CCL. I have the flexibility of choice between them *because* the adhere to a common standard. Each of them has its own extra bits, but I am free to choose between them because everything *else* is not idiosyncratic. I have a choice of machine learning libraries for Python, but that is useful to me because the *rest* of Python isn't different, so there's a huge amount of stuff I can use with an ML program. In Smalltalk I cannot even port a program that opens a file for input, another one for output, and copies the one to the other, despite everything I need being in the ANSI Smalltalk standard. I mean come ON! I have two commercial Smalltalks, two formerly commercial Smalltalks, three free Smalltalks, and several Smalltalk implementations that were never quite finished, and no two of them handle Unicode the same way! Think about it: you have "ÎÎ±Î»Î·Î¼ÎÏÎ± ÎºÏÏÎ¼Îµ" in a file, and no part of trying to copy that file is portable. Let's not mention Sockets, OK? Let's just not go there. Choice and consistency are NOT a dichotomy. They are both important. You need consistency at one level to construct choices at the next level. I note that there are type systems available for Prolog, Erlang, Scheme, and Python (https://realpython.com/python-type-checking/) and I've done work on a type inference program for AWK. Also that there are dynamic type facilities for Haskell and Clean. So dynamic types -vs- static types are not a hard dichotomy either. On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 13:08, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > It's true, Smalltalk faces the same dilemma as Linux and Lisp. As a > /family/ > of languages, portability is a genuine issue. > > There's no getting around this dichotomy. You can have either a flexibility > of choice or the tyranny of one standard, but not both. > > The decision is a fact of life that we face frequently. You can have either > the flexibility of dynamic typing or the safety of static typing, but not > both. You can have either the natural modelling of the real world due to > state mutation or the mathematical safety of immutability, but not both. > You > can have either the portability of a virtual machine or the > close-to-the-metal performance of native code generation, but not both (JIT > compilation notwithstanding). > > Life is about choices. There will always be a place for different > technologies. Smalltalk will not always be the ideal choice. That's why > there are five entirely different languages that dominate our industry > (Python, JavaScript, Java, C#, C++). > > There is no reason why there can't be a sixth, especially if it can > dramatically improve our productivity and make programming less cognitively > stressful. Surely, that's worth fighting for. > > Enough? > > > > Richard O'Keefe wrote > > Here is a challenge: What is "Smalltalk"? > > VAST, VW, and Pharo are quite different environments. > > To the extent that they share a common syntax (which > > they don't, quite), fine, but porting nontrivial > > code between them is NOT easy. They certainly have > > very little in common as GUI kits. All praise and > > thanks to the people who *have* ported stuff. > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Aug 2020 at 01:05, Richard Kenneth Eng < > > > horrido.hobbies@ > > > > > > wrote: > > > >> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/08/10/smalltalks-successor/ > >> > >> A bold claim. It'll be interesting to see if anybody challenges me on > >> this. > >> > >> > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

Aug. 12, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Intermediate-Level Tutorials for Pharo

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Hi Ted, Don't worry and take your time. I tend to write looong (this list should be thankful of English not being my first language and I mostly self learned after crappy courses, if not, you will have me writing even longer ;-P). About entry points, one of the things I like about Pharo is that you canÂ traverse complexity in a similar way, because the liveness of the environment helps you to do it. It's like writing and reading. Once you learn to do it, core strategies are the same despite of addressing huge or small books. I felt that with other languages/environments, traversing infrastructure have pretty particular approaches depending on the particular tool/architecture I was trying to make sense of (infrastructure at some point becomes architecture, but I digress). So we are preparing new entry points with the upcoming Indie Web Workshop [1]. Those entry points have the same level of complexity for new comers, despite of being evolving prototypes and hopefully will attract more experienced ones with Intermediate Level Tutorials. Even they will have the added value of allow ourselves to create some web portfolios for showcasing what we are doing here, in a more attractive and visual way. I will share advances with the list, Cheers, Offray [1] Invitation poster in Spanish at: https://docutopia.tupale.co/uploads/upload_51d7d8be27bb53d5dc1eb96d71979313… On 11/08/20 12:58 p.Â m., tbrunz wrote: > Hi Offray, > > Just wanted to let you know that I enjoyed your several responses, and that > I'm working on following-up to them. > > But first I wanted to look at all your links and make as thoughtful a reply > as you have, and that takes a while... > > I think what you've been working on could be a good entry point for some > groups where I work, so I do want to learn more. > > Cheers! > -Ted > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

Aug. 12, 2020

Little blog post on how to use transcript as a real OOProgrammer

by StÃ©phane Ducasse

Hi guys I wrote this https://thepharo.dev/2020/08/11/transcript-the-misunderstood-global/ <https://thepharo.dev/2020/08/11/transcript-the-misunderstood-global/> because I thought that I had to :) See Chapter 8 for a longer version https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/Booklet-PharoWithStyle/releases/… <https://github.com/SquareBracketAssociates/Booklet-PharoWithStyle/releases/…> S. -------------------------------------------- StÃ©phane Ducasse http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr / http://www.pharo.org 03 59 35 87 52 Assistant: Aurore Dalle FAX 03 59 57 78 50 TEL 03 59 35 86 16 S. Ducasse - Inria 40, avenue Halley, Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, BÃ¢t.A, Park Plaza Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 France

Aug. 11, 2020