May 2020 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: Code completion in blocks (Pharo8)

by Davide Varvello

nobody? -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

May 6, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] New type of web application using HTML, CSS and Smalltalk

by Craig Latta

Hi Paul-- > I wonder if you had or could make something like this: > > https://jgthms.com/web-design-in-4-minutes/ > > that shows the value of caffeine in a way being placed into the > default dev environment + readme doesn't. Yes indeed, I expect to produce such material. > It seems like your work would be really useful to me as a person that > writes web apps in Smalltalk but I have no idea what "extra" I can do > with it. The extra thing is writing web apps in a livecoding style, from within a web browser. I wanted this for my own web app development, as an alternative to the mainstream edit-build-run cycle. > I've watched the youtube presentation and navigated through the > impress presentation on your site and it too quickly introduces tons > of concepts of what you can do but nothing about why anyone should > want to do those things or how to put them together into something a > user would use once a developer has made something. Right, that presentation is just a bunch of demos of works in progress, showing some things that are possible. They're meant to inspire the viewer to imagine what she might do with those abilities, rather than convince the viewer to adopt anything yet. > I also think the dynamic nature of what you're making is cool but it > seems like it adds another level of difficulty in making things > comprehensible to/usable for/accessible by end users. Ultimately, I think making most of the external tools and build steps unnecessary, and enabling direct manipulation, will make things more comprehensible. > Its clear something is there I just have no idea how to unlock the > value for myself or current users and/or theoretical future users. I think it's just the classic value proposition of having a runtime environment in which further development and debugging can occur. For me, the greatest value is being to fix a problem at a point that took a long time to reach, then just continuing the usage session (retaining all that built-up state) rather than starting over. In highly interactive environments like VR, this is critical. -C -- Craig Latta Black Page Digital Amsterdam :: San Francisco craig(a)blackpagedigital.com +31 6 2757 7177 + 1 415 287 3547

May 6, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] New type of web application using HTML, CSS and Smalltalk

by Craig Latta

> [Caffeine is] something very different from a standard single-page Web > app showing standard HTML elements and no IDE in sight, in exchange > for a small footprint. It depends what you do with it. Caffeine can interact with the web browser and other JavaScript frameworks just as any JS framework can. I have other demos showing mainstream SPAs and UIs, using WebComponents, VueJS, plain old DOM elements, etc. -C -- Craig Latta Black Page Digital Amsterdam :: San Francisco craig(a)blackpagedigital.com +31 6 2757 7177 + 1 415 287 3547

May 6, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Preserving Pharo Window state between sessions

by HernÃ¡n Morales Durand

What happened with the HostWindowProxy? El mar., 5 may. 2020 a las 15:32, Esteban Maringolo (<emaringolo(a)gmail.com>) escribiÃ³: > Is there a way to preserve the window state after saving the image on > quit and restarting it again? > > If I save my image window maximized I would like it to be maximized > when starting again. > > Having it otherwise can be annoying when moving from different screen > resolutions, because a 1920x1080 maximized window becomes a "floating" > (non-maximized) window that size on a smaller screen. > > I guess this is controlled by the VM and not the image, but there is a > way to maximize the window from the image? This way it could be a > preference of some sort. > > Regards, > > Esteban A. Maringolo > >

May 6, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] mentor question 4

by Richard O'Keefe

I have forwarded a copy of the original message privately. The problem is also described in RosettaCode. One issue is that the input is described in the original message and in the code I was responding to as "a number", but is in fact a string. On Wed, 6 May 2020 at 04:04, Trygve Reenskaug <trygver(a)ifi.uio.no> wrote: > > Unfortunately, I have lost the original problem specification, so I have answered a different question. Could you please help me by repeating the original problem specification in full? > > I agree that my solution is not 'obviously correct' since it doesn't answer the right question. In one version of the solution, I had a prologue that catered for spaces, etc. Not having a textual form of the algorithm that provided for the extensions, I chose to omit them. > > > > On tirsdag.05.05.2020 15:20, Richard O'Keefe wrote: > > The irony is that the code I was responding to ISN'T obviously correct. > Indeed, I found it rather puzzling. > The problem specification says that the input string may contain digits > AND SPACES. The original message includes this: > > Strings of length 1 or less are not valid. Spaces are allowed in the > input, but they should be stripped before checking. All other > non-digit characters are disallowed. > > Now it isn't clear what "disallowed" means. I took it to mean "may occur and > should simply mean the input is rejected as invalid." Perhaps "may not occur" > was the intention. So we shall not quibble about such characters. > > But I can't for the life of me figure out how Trygve's code checks for spaces. > One reason this is an issue is that the behaviour of #digitValue is not > consistent between systems. > Character space digitValue > does not exist in the ANSI standard > answers -1 in many Smalltalks (which is a pain) > answers a positive integer that can't be mistake for a digit in my Smalltalk > raises an exception in some Smalltalks. > > This is a comment I now have in my Smalltalk library for #digitValue > "This is in the Blue Book, but unspecified on non-digits. > Squeak, Pharo, Dolphin, VW, VAST, and Apple Smalltalk-80 > answer -1 for characters that are not digits (or ASCII letters), > which is unfortunate but consistent with Inside Smalltalk > which specifies this result for non-digits. > ST/X and GST raise an exception which is worse. > Digitalk ST/V documentation doesn't specify the result. > This selector is *much* easier to use safely if it > returns a 'large' (>= 36) value for non-digits." > > Let's compare three versions, the two I compared last time, > and the "version A" code I discussed before, which to my mind > is fairly readable. > > "Don't add slowness": 1 (normalised time) > "Trygve's code": 6.5 > "High level code": 30.6 (or 4.7 times slower than Trygve's) > > Here's the "High level code". > ^(aString allSatisfy: [:each | each isSpace or: [each isDigit]]) and: [ > |digitsReverse| > digitsReverse := (aString select: [:each | each isDigit]) reverse. > digitsReverse size > 1 and: [ > |evens odds evenSum oddSum| > odds := digitsReverse withIndexSelect: [:y :i | i odd]. > evens := digitsReverse withIndexSelect: [:x :i | i even]. > oddSum := odds detectSum: [:y | y digitValue]. > evenSum := evens detectSum: [:x | > #(0 2 4 6 8 1 3 5 7 9) at: x digitValue + 1]. > (oddSum + evenSum) \\ 10 = 0]] > > This is the kind of code I was recommending that Roelof write. > > As a rough guide, by counting traversals (including ones inside existing > methods), I'd expect the "high level" code to be at least 10 times slower > than the "no added slowness" code. > > We are in vehement agreement that there is a time to write high level > really obvious easily testable and debuggable code, and that's most > of the time, especially with programming exercises. > > I hope that we are also in agreement that factors of 30 (or even 6) > *can* be a serious problem. I mean, if I wanted something that slow, > I'd use Ruby. > > I hope we are also agreed that (with the exception of investigations > like this one) the time to hack on something to make it faster is AFTER > you have profiled it and determined that you have a problem. > > But I respectfully suggest that there is a difference taking slowness OUT > and simply not going out of your way to add slowness in the first place. > > I'd also like to remark that my preference for methods that traverse a > sequence exactly once has more to do with Smalltalk protocols than > with efficiency. If the only method I perform on an object is #do: > the method will work just as well for readable streams as for > collections. If the only method I perform on an object is #reverseDo: > the method will work just as well for Read[Write]Streams as for > SequenceReadableCollections, at least in my library. It's just like > trying to write #mean so that it works for Durations as well as Numbers. > > Oh heck, I suppose I should point out that much of the overheads in > this case could be eliminated by a Self-style compiler doing dynamic > inlining + loop fusion. There's no reason *in principle*, given enough > people, money, and time, that the differences couldn't be greatly > reduced in Pharo. > > On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 21:50, Trygve Reenskaug <trygver(a)ifi.uio.no> wrote: > > Richard, > > Thank you for looking at the code. It is comforting to learn that the code has been executed for a large number of examples without breaking. The code is not primarily written for execution but for being read and checked by the human end user. It would be nice if we could also check that it gave the right answers, but I don't know how to do that. > > The first question is: Can a human domain expert read the code and sign their name for its correctness? > > > When this is achieved, a programming expert will transcribe the first code to a professional quality program. This time, the second code should be reviewed by an independent programmer who signs their name for its correct transcription from the first version. > > --Trygve > > PS: In his 1991 Turing Award Lecture, Tony Hoare said: "There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies and the other is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult." > > --Trygve > > On tirsdag.05.05.2020 04:41, Richard O'Keefe wrote: > > As a coding experiment, I adapted Trygve Reenskoug's code to my > Smalltalk compiler, put in my code slightly tweaked, and benchmarked > them on randomly generated data. > > Result: a factor of 6.3. > > In Squeak it was a factor of ten. > > I had not, in all honesty, expected it to to be so high. > > On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 02:00, Trygve Reenskaug <trygver(a)ifi.uio.no> wrote: > > A coding experiment. > Consider a Scrum development environment. Every programming team has an end user as a member. > The team's task is to code a credit card validity check. > A first goal is that the user representative shall read the code and agree that it is a correct rendering of their code checker: > > luhnTest: trialNumber > | s1 odd s2 even charValue reverse | > ----------------------------------------------- > " Luhn test according to Rosetta" > "Reverse the order of the digits in the number." > reverse := trialNumber reversed. > "Take the first, third, ... and every other odd digit in the reversed digits and sum them to form the partial sum s1" > s1 := 0. > odd := true. > reverse do: > [:char | > odd > ifTrue: [ > s1 := s1 + char digitValue. > ]. > odd := odd not > ]. > "Taking the second, fourth ... and every other even digit in the reversed digits: > Multiply each digit by two and sum the digits if the answer is greater than nine to form partial sums for the even digits" > "The subtracting 9 gives the same answer. " > "Sum the partial sums of the even digits to form s2" > s2 := 0. > even := false. > reverse do: > [:char | > even > ifTrue: [ > charValue := char digitValue * 2. > charValue > 9 ifTrue: [charValue := charValue - 9]. > s2 := s2 + charValue > ]. > even := even not > ]. > "If s1 + s2 ends in zero then the original number is in the form of a valid credit card number as verified by the Luhn test." > ^(s1 + s2) asString last = $0 > --------------------------------- > Once this step is completed, the next step will be to make the code right without altering the algorithm (refactoring). The result should be readable and follow the team's conventions. > > > P.S. code attached. > > > -- > > The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborate to achieve a goal. > Trygve Reenskaug mailto: trygver(a)ifi.uio.no > Morgedalsvn. 5A http://folk.uio.no/trygver/ > N-0378 Oslo http://fullOO.info > Norway Tel: (+47) 468 58 625 > > > -- > > The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborate to achieve a goal. > Trygve Reenskaug mailto: trygver(a)ifi.uio.no > Morgedalsvn. 5A http://folk.uio.no/trygver/ > N-0378 Oslo http://fullOO.info > Norway Tel: (+47) 468 58 625

May 6, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] New type of web application using HTML, CSS and Smalltalk

by Paul DeBruicker

Ahh. Apologies. I don't think I understand your point. Are you saying Smalltalkers habitually make obscure/cool things with no documentation and leave their coolness to make their case for adoption rather then helping people adopt them with documentation & other help? Or something else? I wasn't trying to be insulting of what he's done just to point out that the change of understanding between my conception of "the web" as it is today and his example of an alternate approach/worldview was steeeeep. Its clearly a lot and impressive. In the 3:36 video he shows how caffeine.js is usable, enables the use in the browser of live-coding loading js frameworks manipulating js frameworks aframe.io WebXR AR VR 2D projections of a 3D space normal Morphic on SqueakJS MorphicJS with normal Squeak HTML replication of the 4 pane code browser remote interaction between instances of caffeine (e.g. on other machines) GUI & backend javascript <-> Smalltalk two way AST parsing running in Node.js vs the browser Web Workers injecting code into node.js instances 6DOF headsets Non AR, non 6DOF headsets Speech control of caffeine WebMIDI to play a middle C Caffeine control of every tab in your browser (btw can I control your bank account's tab from my caffeine.js app you're running?) and implies that doing so is valuable. Each of those are complex domains to understand let alone the value of tying them all together. After watching it and reading about it (and things like Shaker) and trying it I just have no idea how to apply it to problems I'm aware of and if there was a "training wheels" demo then maybe I'd come to a better understanding. Or I'd learn about problems I'm not even thinking about because I have no tools for them. To me it gives the impression of "you too can work on cars: https://youtu.be/aHSUp7msCIE?t=21 see?" without the "these are wrenches, this is a nut and a bolt, when you use them together you can do this, which enables you to ...." part I know making and teaching are different skills both with their own difficulties. My main point was he could use his tool to lead a person along a path that shows how to adopt his tool rather than leave a person in the dev environment with an open readme. And have that be the first impression and a nice exposition of its flexibility and power. ponyatov wrote >> I've watched the youtube presentation and navigated through the impress >> presentation on your site and it too quickly introduces tons of concepts >> of >> what you can do but nothing about why anyone should want to do those >> things >> or how to put them together into something a user would use once a >> developer >> has made something. > > Oh, you are already feeling the Smalltalk community spirit. > > That is a professor effect when everyone will be every day extoll and > pitch > how Smalltalk is cool, but nobody does not do any text or video blogging > with etudes and reasoning how to use this magic for newbies, and why ever > you need to use it at all in place of mainstream tools and languages > already > have and were documented anything you can imagine (except the Smalltalk > interactivity and its memory persistence). The most fun you'll get with > trying to make work of external libraries, that's the special feel of > dropping dozens of errors due to incompatibility with your system. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

May 6, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] New type of web application using HTML, CSS and Smalltalk

by ponyatov

> I've watched the youtube presentation and navigated through the impress > presentation on your site and it too quickly introduces tons of concepts > of > what you can do but nothing about why anyone should want to do those > things > or how to put them together into something a user would use once a > developer > has made something. Oh, you are already feeling the Smalltalk community spirit. That is a professor effect when everyone will be every day extoll and pitch how Smalltalk is cool, but nobody does not do any text or video blogging with etudes and reasoning how to use this magic for newbies, and why ever you need to use it at all in place of mainstream tools and languages already have and were documented anything you can imagine (except the Smalltalk interactivity and its memory persistence). The most fun you'll get with trying to make work of external libraries, that's the special feel of dropping dozens of errors due to incompatibility with your system. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

May 6, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] New type of web application using HTML, CSS and Smalltalk

by Paul DeBruicker

Hi Craig, I wonder if you had or could make something like this: https://jgthms.com/web-design-in-4-minutes/ that shows the value of caffeine in a way being placed into the default dev environment + readme doesn't. Specifically the way the person exposes both how to do CSS and the value/consequences of making some choices with it. It seems like your work would be really useful to me as a person that writes web apps in Smalltalk but I have no idea what "extra" I can do with it. I see I can tie in a lot of JS functionality while using a Smalltalk IDE in the browser. I'm not sure what to do with that beyond what I already know how to do with emacs and pharo or gemstone. Like a carpenter walking into a shop with end mills and lathes and welders and piles of raw steel in all shapes and sizes. Probably someone can do something cool with all that stuff but I'm afraid I'd just learn to make the same tables and bookshelves and bed frames I already know how to make with wood and miss the steel's inherent potential. I've watched the youtube presentation and navigated through the impress presentation on your site and it too quickly introduces tons of concepts of what you can do but nothing about why anyone should want to do those things or how to put them together into something a user would use once a developer has made something. I also think the dynamic nature of what you're making is cool but it seems like it adds another level of difficulty in making things comprehensible to/usable for/accessible by end users. Its clear something is there I just have no idea how to unlock the value for myself or current users and/or theoretical future users. Hope this helps in some way Paul Craig Latta wrote > Hi Konrad-- > >> ...Even better, a standalone application that could be hosted on >> a plain static server, since all the code would run client-side. > > E.g., https://caffeine.js.org/3d > > > -C > > -- > Craig Latta > Black Page Digital > Amsterdam :: San Francisco > craig@ > +31 6 2757 7177 > + 1 415 287 3547 -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

May 5, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] New type of web application using HTML, CSS and Smalltalk

by Konrad Hinsen

Hi Craig, >> ...Even better, a standalone application that could be hosted on >> a plain static server, since all the code would run client-side. > > E.g., https://caffeine.js.org/3d Yes, caffeine is impressive, but also something very different from a standard single-page Web app showing standard HTML elements and no IDE in sight, in exchange for a small footprint. Konrad.

May 5, 2020

[ANN] HighchartsSt v11.0.0 [v11.0.0] released!

by Buenos Aires Smalltalk

May 5, 2020