May 2020 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

by Richard Sargent

On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 1:31 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > I've updated the poll question, but since there are already 56 votes, it > looks like nobody chose my new addition. Perhaps more of you should vote to > change that. > Communicating with developers is implicit. My point was about communicating with subject matter experts. i.e. non-developers. When our code closely corresponds to the language used by non-developers, we improve our chances that future communication remains fruitful and less subject to mis-interpretation. > > horrido wrote > > You are quite right. How did I manage to miss that?!! > > > > > > Richard Sargent wrote > >> You missed the fact that it makes it easier to communicate with the user > >> community, since it's a "near-English" grammar, and you can easily use a > >> common terminology. > >> > >> > >> On Wed, May 13, 2020, 12:43 Richard Kenneth Eng < > > > >> horrido.hobbies@ > > > >> > > >> wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> > https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smallta… > >>> > >>> > >>> Please participate in the poll. > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

May 15, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

by horrido

I've updated the poll question, but since there are already 56 votes, it looks like nobody chose my new addition. Perhaps more of you should vote to change that. horrido wrote > You are quite right. How did I manage to miss that?!! > > > Richard Sargent wrote >> You missed the fact that it makes it easier to communicate with the user >> community, since it's a "near-English" grammar, and you can easily use a >> common terminology. >> >> >> On Wed, May 13, 2020, 12:43 Richard Kenneth Eng < > >> horrido.hobbies@ > >> > >> wrote: >> >>> >>> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smallta… >>> >>> >>> Please participate in the poll. >>> > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

May 15, 2020

pharo 8 - method versions - how to see author/timestamp?

by PAUL DEBRUICKER

Hi - Sometimes I want to revert to older versions of methods e.g. from an hour ago. In the "Recent versions of MyClass>>#myMethod" dialog no timestamps or authors are present. How do I see those? Thanks Paul

May 15, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] ifCurtailed prompts debug window

by Vitor Medina Cruz

Thanks! I will use on:do: so. On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 2:12 PM Richard Sargent < richard.sargent(a)gemtalksystems.com> wrote: > On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 10:00 AM Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> On Windows 10 and Pharo 8, If I do: >> >> [ Error signal ] ifCurtailed: [ Transcript show: 'error' ]. >> >> the debug window pops up, when I close, 'error' is print in the >> Transcript. If I do >> > > That is correct. It isn't curtailed until the default handler finishes and > drops the stack frames. In this case, the default handler opens the > debugger. When you terminate the debugger, you curtail the execution, not > before. > > >> [ Error signal ] on: Error do: [ Transcript show: 'error' ]. >> >> 'error' is print in Transcript without debug windows pops up. I was >> expecting the same behavior here, as if ifCurtailed was a syntax sugar for >> on:do:, that is not the case or it is some kind of error? The way it is, I >> cannot use ifCurtailed because I don't want the debug window to pup up. >> >> Regards, >> Vitor >> >

May 15, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

by Vitor Medina Cruz

You should make something similar but inverted, like: Why do you think Smalltalk should not be used? --or What are the problems you have that prevents you of using Smalltalk? I have seen many such posts of Smalltalk wonders, and while I agree with most of them, it seems that they aren't enough to increase usage and interest in it, and I am aware of some critics that are made too. Such post might bring lots of feedback, some useful other don't, and might shed some light on what is keeping people away from Smalltalk. Luckily, a list of those most important factors could be build and prioritized. For example, a first questionnaire could be more open, then a list of major complaints could be processed into a pool asking which one of those people think are the wrost. What do you think? Regards, Vitor On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 12:56 PM horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > You are quite right. How did I manage to miss that?!! > > > Richard Sargent wrote > > You missed the fact that it makes it easier to communicate with the user > > community, since it's a "near-English" grammar, and you can easily use a > > common terminology. > > > > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020, 12:43 Richard Kenneth Eng < > > > horrido.hobbies@ > > > > > > wrote: > > > >> > >> > https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smallta… > >> > >> > >> Please participate in the poll. > >> > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

May 15, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] ifCurtailed prompts debug window

by Richard Sargent

On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 10:00 AM Vitor Medina Cruz <vitormcruz(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hello, > > On Windows 10 and Pharo 8, If I do: > > [ Error signal ] ifCurtailed: [ Transcript show: 'error' ]. > > the debug window pops up, when I close, 'error' is print in the > Transcript. If I do > That is correct. It isn't curtailed until the default handler finishes and drops the stack frames. In this case, the default handler opens the debugger. When you terminate the debugger, you curtail the execution, not before. > [ Error signal ] on: Error do: [ Transcript show: 'error' ]. > > 'error' is print in Transcript without debug windows pops up. I was > expecting the same behavior here, as if ifCurtailed was a syntax sugar for > on:do:, that is not the case or it is some kind of error? The way it is, I > cannot use ifCurtailed because I don't want the debug window to pup up. > > Regards, > Vitor >

May 15, 2020

ifCurtailed prompts debug window

by Vitor Medina Cruz

Hello, On Windows 10 and Pharo 8, If I do: [ Error signal ] ifCurtailed: [ Transcript show: 'error' ]. the debug window pops up, when I close, 'error' is print in the Transcript. If I do [ Error signal ] on: Error do: [ Transcript show: 'error' ]. 'error' is print in Transcript without debug windows pops up. I was expecting the same behavior here, as if ifCurtailed was a syntax sugar for on:do:, that is not the case or it is some kind of error? The way it is, I cannot use ifCurtailed because I don't want the debug window to pup up. Regards, Vitor

May 15, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] What are good reasons to use Smalltalk?

by horrido

You are quite right. How did I manage to miss that?!! Richard Sargent wrote > You missed the fact that it makes it easier to communicate with the user > community, since it's a "near-English" grammar, and you can easily use a > common terminology. > > > On Wed, May 13, 2020, 12:43 Richard Kenneth Eng < > horrido.hobbies@ > > > wrote: > >> >> https://smalltalk.tech.blog/2020/05/13/what-are-good-reasons-to-use-smallta… >> >> >> Please participate in the poll. >> -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

May 15, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] mentor question 4

by Ben Coman

On Fri, 15 May 2020 at 20:43, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Why does it make no sense? > To a first approximation, > aCollection asWHATEVER > = > WHATEVER withAll: aCollection > > Consider > 'CAB' asSet > 'CAB' asArray > 'CAB' asSortedCollection > 'CAB' asBag > and so on. They all mean "an instance of the class named > in the selector with the elements of the receiver." > Why should #asString be any different? > Good point. There may be counter arguments (I've only considered this briefly) but where possible it seems reasonable that the asXXXX selectors should be able to round-trip. i.e... 'abc' asByteArray asString ==> 'abc' in which case... 'abc' asArray asString ==> '#($a $b $c) seems wrong. That result seems more suitable to #printString or #displayString, particularly considering Richards next insight... > Why on earth does #($a $b $c) asString make no sense > when #($a $b $c) as: String > -- which we expect to do the same thing -- DOES apparently > make sense? > cheers -ben

May 15, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] mentor question 4

by Richard O'Keefe

PS: I should make it clear that I do not expect anArray asString to work for *all* arrays. In my Smalltalk, #(true false) asString raises an exception, and so does #(65 66 67) asString. On Sat, 16 May 2020 at 00:42, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Why does it make no sense? > To a first approximation, > aCollection asWHATEVER > = > WHATEVER withAll: aCollection > > Consider > 'CAB' asSet > 'CAB' asArray > 'CAB' asSortedCollection > 'CAB' asBag > and so on. They all mean "an instance of the class named > in the selector with the elements of the receiver." > Why should #asString be any different? > > Why on earth does #($a $b $c) asString make no sense > when #($a $b $c) as: String > -- which we expect to do the same thing -- DOES apparently > make sense? > > Note that when I'm talking about #asString, I haven't the slightest > thought in my mind about user interfaces. I am talking about a > selector in the 'converting' category which I expect to act just > like other methods in the same category. I am talking about > expecting _ as: String and _ asString to be consistent the way > that _ as: Array and _ asArray are. I am talking about "if it > is OK to convert a String to an Array, why can't I convert that > Array back to a String using the same pattern of code"? > > #printString exists. > #storeString exists. > #displayString exists -- although I have never seen a clear description of > exactly what it is supposed to do and how it is supposed to differ from > #printString, and it is certainly not portable. > > If I want the effect of any one of these, I am going to use it and NOT > #asString. If I want to convert an Array or a Set to a String with the > same elements, I am going to expect #asString to do it. When #asString is > inconsistent with all the other #asWHATEVER methods, I am going to regard > it as a bug. > > How about a compromise? > > Collection>>asString > ^(self allSatisfy: [:each | each isCharacter]) > ifTrue: [String withAll: self] > ifFalse: [super asString] > > > > > > On Fri, 15 May 2020 at 02:30, StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> > wrote: > >> >> >> On 11 May 2020, at 23:19, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I was saying that I expected #($a $b $c) asString ==> 'abcâ. >> >> >> To me it makes no sense. >> I do not understand what is asString in fact. >> >> >> If you want something that can be read back, that's what #storeString is >> for, >> >> On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 01:28, StÃ©phane Ducasse >> <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On 5 May 2020, at 16:16, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> By the way, while playing with this problem, I ran into a moderately >> painful issue. >> >> There is a reason that Smalltalk has both #printString (to get a >> printable representation of an object) and #asString (to convert a >> sequence to another kind of sequence with the same elements.) If I >> *want* #printString, I know where to find it. The definition in my >> Smalltalk no reads >> >> asString >> "What should #($a $b $c) do? >> - Blue Book, Inside Smalltalk, Apple Smalltalk-80: >> there is no #asString. >> - ANSI, VW, Dolphin, CSOM: >> #asString is defined on characters and strings >> (and things like file names and URIs that are sort of strings), >> so expect an error report. >> - VisualAge Smalltalk: >> '($a $b $c)' >> - Squeak and Pharo: >> '#($a $b $c)' >> - GNU Smalltalk, Smalltalk/X, and astc: >> 'abc' >> I don't intend any gratuitous incompatibility, but when there >> is no consensus to be compatible with, one must pick something, >> and this seems most useful. >> " >> ^String withAll: self >> >> Does anyone here know WHY Squeak and Pharo do what they do here? >> >> >> Oops I did not see the quotes on my screen.. >> >> #( a b c) asString >> >> '#(#a #b #c)â >> >> >> this is unclear to me why this is not good but I have no strong opinion >> that this is good. >> >> I worked on printString for literals because I wanted to have >> self evaluating properties for basic literal like in Scheme and others. >> where >> #t >> >> >> #t >> >> And I payed attention that we get the same for literal arrays. >> Now the conversion is open to me. >> >> #($a $b $c) asString >> >> >> '#($a $b $c)â >> >> In fact I do not really understand why a string >> >> #($a $b $c) asString would be '(a b c)â >> and its use >> if this is to nicely display in the ui I would have >> displayString doing it. >> >> S. >> >> >> >> On Wed, 6 May 2020 at 01:20, Richard O'Keefe <raoknz(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> The irony is that the code I was responding to ISN'T obviously correct. >> Indeed, I found it rather puzzling. >> The problem specification says that the input string may contain digits >> AND SPACES. The original message includes this: >> >> Strings of length 1 or less are not valid. Spaces are allowed in the >> input, but they should be stripped before checking. All other >> non-digit characters are disallowed. >> >> Now it isn't clear what "disallowed" means. I took it to mean "may occur >> and >> should simply mean the input is rejected as invalid." Perhaps "may not >> occur" >> was the intention. So we shall not quibble about such characters. >> >> But I can't for the life of me figure out how Trygve's code checks for >> spaces. >> One reason this is an issue is that the behaviour of #digitValue is not >> consistent between systems. >> Character space digitValue >> does not exist in the ANSI standard >> answers -1 in many Smalltalks (which is a pain) >> answers a positive integer that can't be mistake for a digit in my >> Smalltalk >> raises an exception in some Smalltalks. >> >> This is a comment I now have in my Smalltalk library for #digitValue >> "This is in the Blue Book, but unspecified on non-digits. >> Squeak, Pharo, Dolphin, VW, VAST, and Apple Smalltalk-80 >> answer -1 for characters that are not digits (or ASCII letters), >> which is unfortunate but consistent with Inside Smalltalk >> which specifies this result for non-digits. >> ST/X and GST raise an exception which is worse. >> Digitalk ST/V documentation doesn't specify the result. >> This selector is *much* easier to use safely if it >> returns a 'large' (>= 36) value for non-digits." >> >> Let's compare three versions, the two I compared last time, >> and the "version A" code I discussed before, which to my mind >> is fairly readable. >> >> "Don't add slowness": 1 (normalised time) >> "Trygve's code": 6.5 >> "High level code": 30.6 (or 4.7 times slower than Trygve's) >> >> Here's the "High level code". >> ^(aString allSatisfy: [:each | each isSpace or: [each isDigit]]) and: >> [ >> |digitsReverse| >> digitsReverse := (aString select: [:each | each isDigit]) reverse. >> digitsReverse size > 1 and: [ >> |evens odds evenSum oddSum| >> odds := digitsReverse withIndexSelect: [:y :i | i odd]. >> evens := digitsReverse withIndexSelect: [:x :i | i even]. >> oddSum := odds detectSum: [:y | y digitValue]. >> evenSum := evens detectSum: [:x | >> #(0 2 4 6 8 1 3 5 7 9) at: x digitValue + 1]. >> (oddSum + evenSum) \\ 10 = 0]] >> >> This is the kind of code I was recommending that Roelof write. >> >> As a rough guide, by counting traversals (including ones inside existing >> methods), I'd expect the "high level" code to be at least 10 times slower >> than the "no added slowness" code. >> >> We are in vehement agreement that there is a time to write high level >> really obvious easily testable and debuggable code, and that's most >> of the time, especially with programming exercises. >> >> I hope that we are also in agreement that factors of 30 (or even 6) >> *can* be a serious problem. I mean, if I wanted something that slow, >> I'd use Ruby. >> >> I hope we are also agreed that (with the exception of investigations >> like this one) the time to hack on something to make it faster is AFTER >> you have profiled it and determined that you have a problem. >> >> But I respectfully suggest that there is a difference taking slowness OUT >> and simply not going out of your way to add slowness in the first place. >> >> I'd also like to remark that my preference for methods that traverse a >> sequence exactly once has more to do with Smalltalk protocols than >> with efficiency. If the only method I perform on an object is #do: >> the method will work just as well for readable streams as for >> collections. If the only method I perform on an object is #reverseDo: >> the method will work just as well for Read[Write]Streams as for >> SequenceReadableCollections, at least in my library. It's just like >> trying to write #mean so that it works for Durations as well as Numbers. >> >> Oh heck, I suppose I should point out that much of the overheads in >> this case could be eliminated by a Self-style compiler doing dynamic >> inlining + loop fusion. There's no reason *in principle*, given enough >> people, money, and time, that the differences couldn't be greatly >> reduced in Pharo. >> >> On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 21:50, Trygve Reenskaug <trygver(a)ifi.uio.no> wrote: >> >> >> Richard, >> >> Thank you for looking at the code. It is comforting to learn that the >> code has been executed for a large number of examples without breaking. The >> code is not primarily written for execution but for being read and checked >> by the human end user. It would be nice if we could also check that it gave >> the right answers, but I don't know how to do that. >> >> The first question is: Can a human domain expert read the code and sign >> their name for its correctness? >> >> >> When this is achieved, a programming expert will transcribe the first >> code to a professional quality program. This time, the second code should >> be reviewed by an independent programmer who signs their name for its >> correct transcription from the first version. >> >> --Trygve >> >> PS: In his 1991 Turing Award Lecture, Tony Hoare said: "There are two >> ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple >> that there are obviously no deficiencies and the other is to make it so >> complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far >> more difficult." >> >> --Trygve >> >> On tirsdag.05.05.2020 04:41, Richard O'Keefe wrote: >> >> As a coding experiment, I adapted Trygve Reenskoug's code to my >> Smalltalk compiler, put in my code slightly tweaked, and benchmarked >> them on randomly generated data. >> >> Result: a factor of 6.3. >> >> In Squeak it was a factor of ten. >> >> I had not, in all honesty, expected it to to be so high. >> >> On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 02:00, Trygve Reenskaug <trygver(a)ifi.uio.no> wrote: >> >> A coding experiment. >> Consider a Scrum development environment. Every programming team has an >> end user as a member. >> The team's task is to code a credit card validity check. >> A first goal is that the user representative shall read the code and >> agree that it is a correct rendering of their code checker: >> >> luhnTest: trialNumber >> | s1 odd s2 even charValue reverse | >> ----------------------------------------------- >> " Luhn test according to Rosetta" >> "Reverse the order of the digits in the number." >> reverse := trialNumber reversed. >> "Take the first, third, ... and every other odd digit in the reversed >> digits and sum them to form the partial sum s1" >> s1 := 0. >> odd := true. >> reverse do: >> [:char | >> odd >> ifTrue: [ >> s1 := s1 + char digitValue. >> ]. >> odd := odd not >> ]. >> "Taking the second, fourth ... and every other even digit in the reversed >> digits: >> Multiply each digit by two and sum the digits if the answer is greater >> than nine to form partial sums for the even digits" >> "The subtracting 9 gives the same answer. " >> "Sum the partial sums of the even digits to form s2" >> s2 := 0. >> even := false. >> reverse do: >> [:char | >> even >> ifTrue: [ >> charValue := char digitValue * 2. >> charValue > 9 ifTrue: [charValue := charValue - 9]. >> s2 := s2 + charValue >> ]. >> even := even not >> ]. >> "If s1 + s2 ends in zero then the original number is in the form of a >> valid credit card number as verified by the Luhn test." >> ^(s1 + s2) asString last = $0 >> --------------------------------- >> Once this step is completed, the next step will be to make the code right >> without altering the algorithm (refactoring). The result should be readable >> and follow the team's conventions. >> >> >> P.S. code attached. >> >> >> -- >> >> The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborate to achieve >> a goal. >> Trygve Reenskaug mailto: trygver(a)ifi.uio.no >> Morgedalsvn. 5A http://folk.uio.no/trygver/ >> N-0378 Oslo http://fullOO.info >> Norway Tel: (+47) 468 58 625 >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> StÃ©phane Ducasse >> http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr / http://www.pharo.org >> 03 59 35 87 52 >> Assistant: Julie Jonas >> FAX 03 59 57 78 50 >> TEL 03 59 35 86 16 >> S. Ducasse - Inria >> 40, avenue Halley, >> Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, BÃ¢t.A, Park Plaza >> Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 >> France >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> StÃ©phane Ducasse >> http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr / http://www.pharo.org >> 03 59 35 87 52 >> Assistant: Julie Jonas >> FAX 03 59 57 78 50 >> TEL 03 59 35 86 16 >> S. Ducasse - Inria >> 40, avenue Halley, >> Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, BÃ¢t.A, Park Plaza >> Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 >> France >> >>

May 15, 2020