April 2020 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Minimality

by Pavel Krivanek

We are not fighting successfully against the accidental complexity. On the other hand, the count of classes is not really meaningful value. Pharo has about 1700 test classes, there are rules, manifests and baselines. The Opal and AST-Core has much more classes than the old compiler for good reasons and so on... Cheers, -- Pavel Ät 16. 4. 2020 v 15:23 odesÃlatel Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> napsal: > Le 16/04/2020 Ã 14:23, Richard O'Keefe a Ã©crit : > > I'm not sure what "descendants of Smalltalk-80" means. > > Obviously, I mean the Apple' Smalltalk-80 Squeak takes its origin from. > I should have write that. > > > Smalltalk is simple enough, it's just that things we need to talk to > > are insanely complex. (Hands up everyone who has actually read > > But Pharo is over this point. Its complexity is not because of > additional packages but from its internal way of doing things, I can't > tell you exactly why, I am just observing this situation when trying to > understand how things work from the inside. See for example my idiotic > struggle a couple of days ago. > > For example, Morph was not cleanup as done in Cuis but since ten years > there were attempts to develop additional frameworks (athens, bloc, > brick, other?) with unclear results. > > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu > > > >

April 16, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [Demo]: Remote Control Mac Apps (like OBS) via Pharo on iOS

by Tim Mackinnon

Nice one Sean - didnât recognise you with the moustache though ;) It hadnât occurred to me to link in to some AppleScript to make things happen - great observation. > On 16 Apr 2020, at 12:11, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> wrote: > > I used Pharo to turn an iPhone into a tethered remote control for apps on my > Macbook Pro. Code available on GitHub. Here's a video in case anyone finds > it interesting: https://youtu.be/z59FWpv4_GA > > NB: Could be made wireless with a Duet Display Air subscription. > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

April 16, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Minimality

by Hilaire

Le 16/04/2020 Ã 14:23, Richard O'Keefe a Ã©critÂ : > I'm not sure what "descendants of Smalltalk-80" means. Obviously, I mean the Apple' Smalltalk-80 Squeak takes its origin from. I should have write that. > Smalltalk is simple enough, it's just that things we need to talk to > are insanely complex. (Hands up everyone who has actually read But Pharo is over this point. Its complexity is not because of additional packages but from its internal way of doing things, I can't tell you exactly why, I am just observing this situation when trying to understand how things work from the inside. See for example my idiotic struggle a couple of days ago. For example, Morph was not cleanup as done in Cuis but since ten years there were attempts to develop additional frameworks (athens, bloc, brick, other?) with unclear results. -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

April 16, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Minimality

by Richard O'Keefe

I'm not sure what "descendants of Smalltalk-80" means. Surely it should include VisualWorks (2994 classes) and GNU Smalltalk (248 classes in the kernel) and Dolphin Smalltalk (2164). My Smalltalk is recognisably a descendant of Smalltalk-80, and the test build has 985 classes I'm not sure what the number of classes means either. The number of classes in a classic Smalltalk-80 image is well-defined, but with repository access like Iceberg, it is feasible to have a lot of stuff outside the core. The figure for GNU Smalltalk is deceptive because the UI kit, XML support, I18N support, Sockets, and a lot of other stuff are outside its kernel. VW comes with a bunch of "parcels": XML, XPath, XSL, oodles of tools including UI painter, data base interface, &c out of the image (so not counted above) but available with a few mouse clicks. Pharo and Squeak can install a grreat deal of stuff from their repositories. Dolphin comes with another 900-odd easily installable contributed classes. Given the number of different things we want to interface to these days, including but in no way limited to TCP, UDP, SCTP, FTP(S), HTTP(S), (X)HTML,XML,assorted XML addons, YAML, TOML, JSON, BERP, ASN.1, SQL, assorted No-SQL systems, too many audio formats, too many image formats, too many video formats, too many compression schemes, too many versions of Markdown (and close relatives), a character set standard that grows rapidly and requires a book of 1030 pages to describe it -- that's exclusive of code charts -- and all the other delirious warty melons one needs to interface to these days, and I don't believe we *can* have a minimal class library. I mean, it takes me 28 classes just to deal with core XML, and I insist that every class be worth its pay. The best we can hope for is something in the Spoon mould, where you have in the low hundreds of classes, some of which (arithmetic, collections, streams, perhaps geometric objects) can be understood in full by programmers, some of which (compiler, network, file system) have *interfaces* that programmers can understand but whose implementation they seldom bother about, then an middle layer of packages providing things like audio, images, video, compression, encryption, Markdown, whatever, that are normally held locally and possibly auto-loaded, then an outer layer of repositories. Smalltalk is simple enough, it's just that things we need to talk to are insanely complex. (Hands up everyone who has actually read the whole of the Unicode standard. Oh well done. Now put your hand down if you have *understood* the whole of it. Nobody with a hand up? Well I never.) understand On Thu, 16 Apr 2020 at 22:46, Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> wrote: > > As a matter of fact it is interesting to compare the number of classes > in the last releases of the descendants of Smalltalk 80: > > * Cuis5 (480 classes), > * Squeak 5.2 (2713 classes) > * Pharo8 (*9084 *classes) > > I don't think the last Pharo vision statement: > > /A system with robust abstractions that a single person can understand./ > > is in anyway realistic. > > Now, will Pharo9 reach the sky with *10'000* classes? Very likely if you > observe the graph below: > > Hilaire > > Le 13/04/2020 Ã 14:30, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler a Ã©crit : > > Just a reflexion that Iâd like to share here. > > When Hilaire talks about complexity. I have to agree too, even if I > > like the progress under the hood, and explored spaces like GToolkit. > > > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu > > >

April 16, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Minimality

by CÃ©drick BÃ©ler

I think weâre in a kind of in-between path: - the bootstrap work but still at its early days - the main development still copes with Morphic. Spec2 is a high objective and is sponsoredâ¦ So lots of code duplication, as the tools and frameworks. But also progress and again so few real manpowerâ¦ It seems to be more reasonable to imagine iterative bootstrap of new images. But this is just a feeling and right now people are so busy that I think we have to be patient for that.I donât know but that might be kind of an obliged path so as to reduce drastically later. I hope so too. Also, Hilaire, I can see you struggle with DrGEO to keep up to date. Iâve no such project, so I can just imagine your frustration, especially since DrGEO UI had to rely on Morphic from long time (To me, this must be the hardest projects to maintain here). For now, I can bear some hundreds MB as anyway all open softwares on my OS (just crazy by the way). Just out of curiosity, I opened an Activity Monitor (see pic 1). Wow, I was amazed that pharo occupies 2,51Go (the processor is ok, around 3% in idle). But WOW, I work in this image for about two weeks never turning off my computer, always suspend with Pharo and everything opened (yes Iâm this kind of guy ^^) and this is actually extraordinary stable. Iâve as many workspaces as I did visualization experiments on COVIDâ¦ So thousands of record every days, and visualizations etcâ¦ Compared to other softwares on the list, pharo does not have to blush. I save the image, it is 170MB on disk. 20MB more than my last version (with is normal since I keep more data in it). I reopen. All is still available (at least the data in playgrounds), and the occupied memory is 228MB (pic 2). Ok, I could have done a garbage collectorâ¦ But still Iâm impressed on the stability, really ! So Iâd like to sincerely congratulates the dev for that. Please continue your hard work ! I also wish that the infrastructure will soon allow to build real and better images, within a contained complexity. Just some questions maybe : - what would be a realistic estimation of having Â« minimal images from bootstrapÂ» usable in production ? 2y ? - What about the UI plans here, Full removal of Morphic ? SPEC2 then specific backends (Bloc / Native) ? Is it possible/planned to have a programmable UI, like a REST Interface that would be compatible with Spec2 ? Cheers, CÃ©drick After reopening (like one of my safari tab !). > Le 16 avr. 2020 Ã 12:46, Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu> a Ã©crit : > > As a matter of fact it is interesting to compare the number of classes in the last releases of the descendants of Smalltalk 80: > > * Cuis5 (480 classes), > * Squeak 5.2 (2713 classes) > * Pharo8 (*9084 *classes) > > I don't think the last Pharo vision statement: > > /A system with robust abstractions that a single person can understand./ > > is in anyway realistic. > > Now, will Pharo9 reach the sky with *10'000* classes? Very likely if you observe the graph below: > > Hilaire > > Le 13/04/2020 Ã 14:30, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler a Ã©crit : >> Just a reflexion that Iâd like to share here. >> When Hilaire talks about complexity. I have to agree too, even if I like the progress under the hood, and explored spaces like GToolkit. >> > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu > > >

April 16, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Minimality

by Norbert Hartl

A vision is not a state-of-the-art description. If we would target a minimal system we still can have a bloated one. And the number of classes in the system is not a metric of understandability. Otherwise providing more tools for people to look onto code and understand would be a contradiction to this. Norbert > Am 16.04.2020 um 12:46 schrieb Hilaire <hilaire(a)drgeo.eu>: > > As a matter of fact it is interesting to compare the number of classes in the last releases of the descendants of Smalltalk 80: > > * Cuis5 (480 classes), > * Squeak 5.2 (2713 classes) > * Pharo8 (*9084 *classes) > > I don't think the last Pharo vision statement: > > /A system with robust abstractions that a single person can understand./ > > is in anyway realistic. > > Now, will Pharo9 reach the sky with *10'000* classes? Very likely if you observe the graph below: > > Hilaire > > Le 13/04/2020 Ã 14:30, CÃ©drick BÃ©ler a Ã©crit : >> Just a reflexion that Iâd like to share here. >> When Hilaire talks about complexity. I have to agree too, even if I like the progress under the hood, and explored spaces like GToolkit. >> > -- > Dr. Geo > http://drgeo.eu > > >

April 16, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [Demo]: Remote Control Mac Apps (like OBS) via Pharo on iOS

by Guillermo Polito

Thatâs cool :) thanks for sharing! > El 16 abr 2020, a las 13:11, Sean P. DeNigris <sean(a)clipperadams.com> escribiÃ³: > > I used Pharo to turn an iPhone into a tethered remote control for apps on my > Macbook Pro. Code available on GitHub. Here's a video in case anyone finds > it interesting: https://youtu.be/z59FWpv4_GA > > NB: Could be made wireless with a Duet Display Air subscription. > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

April 16, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Minimality

by Richard O'Keefe

This sounds a lot like Craig Latta's "Spoon". Probably worth talking to him about it. On Tue, 14 Apr 2020 at 07:48, Erik Stel <erik.stel(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Hi Cedreek, > > (Part of this I mentioned on Discord as well, but not all readers will be on > Discord) > > I'm working with a tiny Smalltalk image (currently around 150Kb) which > contains basic classes (very similar to PharoCandle, but with the regular > Smalltalk names without PC-prefix, see > https://github.com/carolahp/PharoCandleSrc) It additionally supports > WebSockets when used in combination with SqueakJS, but I'm working on a > regular WebSocket-version for OpenSmalltalk-VM as well. > > The image has an ObjectEncoder/Decoder pair allowing the image to 'receive' > encoded classes and methods from a regular Smalltalk image (bytcode only, > since no compiler is present in the tine image). The tiny image can install > these classes and use them. The current 'protocol' is to send messages to > this tiny image and have the image send events back to the regular image. > The tiny image (client) is responsible for making a connection with the > regular image (server). But this protocol can be adjusted with newly > installed classes of course ;-). > > My idea (dream?) is to create small cloud images for personal use, so you > can run many on limited computing units. These images will not have file- or > FFI-support and need to retrieve data through WebSocket/HTTP/... or other > web communication technology. It is part of a project I'm working on to > learn programming in Smalltalk to kids. They can spin up an image in the > cloud (or on their Raspberry Pi at home) and load their code from a remote > repository. The development environment will run in the cloud and be usable > with a web browser. In the web browser runs a tiny image which can execu...o > wait, I explained that part already ;-). So in the web browser this same > tiny image is running (on SqueakJS). This time, it loads code to be able to > manipulate the DOM. This tiny image is sort of the Javascript replacement. > So everything is Smalltalk! :-) > > Still a long way to go though. I hope to be able to demonstrate a little of > this in a not so distant future. I will share my code as well. Everything > will be open source. > > Feel free to reach out if anyone wants to participate. ;-) > > Regards, > Erik > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

April 16, 2020

[Demo]: Remote Control Mac Apps (like OBS) via Pharo on iOS

by Sean P. DeNigris

I used Pharo to turn an iPhone into a tethered remote control for apps on my Macbook Pro. Code available on GitHub. Here's a video in case anyone finds it interesting: https://youtu.be/z59FWpv4_GA NB: Could be made wireless with a Duet Display Air subscription. ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

April 16, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Minimality

by Hilaire

I forgot the graph: Now, will Pharo9 reach the sky with *10'000* classes? Very likely if you observe the graph below: -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu

April 16, 2020