March 2020 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] JRMPC Poll

by horrido

I didn't ask them that, but I did provide the link to PBE. It was up to them to learn any way they wish. You can't mandate people to read PBE. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. PBE is not a good resource if you want to look up classes that you need for your application. Just as you guys provide a quick reference for Pharo syntax, you should provide a quick reference for the class library, too. That would definitely ease the learning curve. All programming languages rely on a "standard library" (in our case, a standard class library). No self-respecting language would lack a standard library reference, whether we're talking about C, C++, C#, Java, Python, etc. Even GNU Smalltalk understood this. <https://www.gnu.org/software/smalltalk/manual-base/gst-base.html> Richard O'Keefe wrote > I am a little confused here. I originally learned Smalltalk from the > coloured books and > then Inside Smalltalk. When I got the chance to use Squeak, pretty > much everything > from those books carried over well enough for me to hit the ground > running. There are > lots of free e-books about Smalltalk, not least Pharo By Example. Had > these people > who were polled read PBE? > > On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 04:49, horrido < > horrido.hobbies@ > > wrote: >> >> This is what I provided the JRMPC participants: https://jrmpc.ca/ (see >> "How >> to learn Smalltalk programming"). I'm not sure how I could've done >> better, >> though. >> >> You make an excellent point about duplication and keeping documentation >> up-to-date. However, there has to be some middle ground that makes it >> easier >> and more convenient for new developers to find the tools they need. >> Perhaps >> a synoptical reference showing the more common classes used, such as >> collections, web-related classes, time-related classes, exception and >> error >> classes, file system-related classes, process-related classes, and so on. >> These classes ought not to change much, if at all. >> >> >> >> Tim Mackinnon wrote >> > Or we teach people to fishâ¦? Whatâs the point of duplicating everything >> > thatâs already in the image anyway - we just need to be cleverer or >> ensure >> > that people know to look there and have the right onboarding experience >> to >> > do that? Otherwise its just another thing that gets out of date very >> > rapidly and we already have enough problems with that. >> > >> > Iâd be interested in what intro material Richard gave the students to >> > start with (after all - he has quite a few tutorials of his own, some >> of >> > which I had followed - but I suspect they are out of date now >> themselves). >> > When you launch pharo there is the helpful welcome screen - did the >> > studentâs actually use it and follow what it says? >> > >> > And did we see any of them in this forum (or was that against the >> rules?) >> > >> > Tim >> > >> >> On 24 Mar 2020, at 17:28, Ben Coman < >> >> > btc@ >> >> > > wrote: >> >> >> >> Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a >> >> library reference. >> >> Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system >> itself >> >> as that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for >> >> newcomers. >> >> >> >> I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image, >> >> but I couldn't put my hands on it right now. >> >> @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers >> >> something more familiar to work with. >> >> >> >> cheers -ben >> >> >> >> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng < >> >> > horrido.hobbies@ >> >> > <mailto: >> >> > horrido.hobbies@ >> >> > >> wrote: >> >> https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/ >> >> >> <https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/> >> >> >> >> FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference >> documentation >> >> for the class library as the major obstacle to learning >> Smalltalk/Pharo. >> >> >> >> Richard >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

March 26, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] JRMPC Poll

by Richard O'Keefe

I am a little confused here. I originally learned Smalltalk from the coloured books and then Inside Smalltalk. When I got the chance to use Squeak, pretty much everything from those books carried over well enough for me to hit the ground running. There are lots of free e-books about Smalltalk, not least Pharo By Example. Had these people who were polled read PBE? On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 04:49, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > This is what I provided the JRMPC participants: https://jrmpc.ca/ (see "How > to learn Smalltalk programming"). I'm not sure how I could've done better, > though. > > You make an excellent point about duplication and keeping documentation > up-to-date. However, there has to be some middle ground that makes it easier > and more convenient for new developers to find the tools they need. Perhaps > a synoptical reference showing the more common classes used, such as > collections, web-related classes, time-related classes, exception and error > classes, file system-related classes, process-related classes, and so on. > These classes ought not to change much, if at all. > > > > Tim Mackinnon wrote > > Or we teach people to fishâ¦? Whatâs the point of duplicating everything > > thatâs already in the image anyway - we just need to be cleverer or ensure > > that people know to look there and have the right onboarding experience to > > do that? Otherwise its just another thing that gets out of date very > > rapidly and we already have enough problems with that. > > > > Iâd be interested in what intro material Richard gave the students to > > start with (after all - he has quite a few tutorials of his own, some of > > which I had followed - but I suspect they are out of date now themselves). > > When you launch pharo there is the helpful welcome screen - did the > > studentâs actually use it and follow what it says? > > > > And did we see any of them in this forum (or was that against the rules?) > > > > Tim > > > >> On 24 Mar 2020, at 17:28, Ben Coman < > > > btc@ > > > > wrote: > >> > >> Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a > >> library reference. > >> Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system itself > >> as that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for > >> newcomers. > >> > >> I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image, > >> but I couldn't put my hands on it right now. > >> @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers > >> something more familiar to work with. > >> > >> cheers -ben > >> > >> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng < > > > horrido.hobbies@ > > > <mailto: > > > horrido.hobbies@ > > > >> wrote: > >> https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/ > >> <https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/> > >> > >> FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation > >> for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo. > >> > >> Richard > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

March 26, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Do we have a simple markdown parser?

by Kasper Osterbye

I do not think the PP2 is used in the github parser actually. The github parser was just a addon to the rest of the stuff, and the pillar markdown parser used PP2. Anyways, if you have any questions, feel free to ask. Best, Kasper

March 25, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Do we have a simple markdown parser?

by Tim Mackinnon

Hey thanks - I took another fresh image and this one seemed to work, so not sure what happened in the other image that causes that issue (Iâve seen it before with other projects too - something seems to cause a stall, and then things donât seem to work â¦). Anyway - thanks for putting it forward - I saw it load PP2, so it seems like something in the write direction for me (although my use case might be possible with a regex, but that is just so nasty). Tim > On 25 Mar 2020, at 17:03, Kasper Osterbye <kasper.osterbye(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > @Tim. I just verified that it load on a fresh P8. I am on a mac, but that should not make any difference. > > <image.png> > > Best, > > Kasper

March 25, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Do we have a simple markdown parser?

by Kasper Osterbye

@Tim. I just verified that it load on a fresh P8. I am on a mac, but that should not make any difference. [image: image.png] Best, Kasper

March 25, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] JRMPC Poll

by Richard Sargent

On Wed, Mar 25, 2020, 08:49 horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > This is what I provided the JRMPC participants: https://jrmpc.ca/ (see > "How > to learn Smalltalk programming"). I'm not sure how I could've done better, > though. > > You make an excellent point about duplication and keeping documentation > up-to-date. However, there has to be some middle ground that makes it > easier > and more convenient for new developers to find the tools they need. Perhaps > a synoptical reference showing the more common classes used, such as > collections, web-related classes, time-related classes, exception and error > classes, file system-related classes, process-related classes, and so on. > These classes ought not to change much, if at all. > I agree with this. So many times I have seen documentation that could be compared to what results from throwing a plate of spaghetti (Bolognese!) at a wall. Usually what's lacking is the kind of information that might be called a road map. Not so much in the sense of a set of directions, but like a real road map or a transit system map, lays out the routes and shows the connections between important places. Pulling numbers out of thin air, it might be that as little as 1% of the system details would suffice to show a novice how things fit together and how to easily navigate the detailed information. Like you suggest, this small fraction would be at a high enough level or of such importance that it would be unlikely to become stale. > > > Tim Mackinnon wrote > > Or we teach people to fishâ¦? Whatâs the point of duplicating everything > > thatâs already in the image anyway - we just need to be cleverer or > ensure > > that people know to look there and have the right onboarding experience > to > > do that? Otherwise its just another thing that gets out of date very > > rapidly and we already have enough problems with that. > > > > Iâd be interested in what intro material Richard gave the students to > > start with (after all - he has quite a few tutorials of his own, some of > > which I had followed - but I suspect they are out of date now > themselves). > > When you launch pharo there is the helpful welcome screen - did the > > studentâs actually use it and follow what it says? > > > > And did we see any of them in this forum (or was that against the rules?) > > > > Tim > > > >> On 24 Mar 2020, at 17:28, Ben Coman < > > > btc@ > > > > wrote: > >> > >> Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a > >> library reference. > >> Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system itself > >> as that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for > >> newcomers. > >> > >> I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image, > >> but I couldn't put my hands on it right now. > >> @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers > >> something more familiar to work with. > >> > >> cheers -ben > >> > >> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng < > > > horrido.hobbies@ > > > <mailto: > > > horrido.hobbies@ > > > >> wrote: > >> https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/ > >> < > https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/> > > >> > >> FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation > >> for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo. > >> > >> Richard > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

March 25, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Do we have a simple markdown parser?

by Tim Mackinnon

Kaspar - I canât get it to load in a P8 image - it seems to stall half way through (Iâve seen that a few times with Metacello to be honest - I think there is some escaping timeout that causes issues). Does it load for you? > On 24 Mar 2020, at 22:38, Kasper Osterbye <kasper.osterbye(a)gmail.com <mailto:kasper.osterbye@gmail.com>> wrote: > > I have a github-markdown which translates into pillar - and from pillar you can get many things. > > It is lacking several aspects, as I personally was most interested in rendering it inside pharo. The major thing missing (because I could not figure out how to render them) is tables. But take a look at: https://github.com/kasperosterbye/PillarRichTextRender <https://github.com/kasperosterbye/PillarRichTextRender> > > But perhaps it is better than nothing - your usage scenario is not quite clear to me. > > Best, > > Kasper > > On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 10:12 PM Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works <mailto:tim@testit.works>> wrote: > Hmm I hadnât even thought of Xstreamsâ¦ I always thought it sounded cool, perhaps its a place to start - but as you mention, Iâm not sure it really gained traction in the Pharo world. My use case is quite simple as the markdown files are simple configuration (and maybe donât even need a parser - e.g. https://github.com/servirtium/demo-java-climate-tck/blob/master/src/test/mo… <https://github.com/servirtium/demo-java-climate-tck/blob/master/src/test/mo…>). I was hoping there might be something simple I could run with to help explore how best to use the config in those files. > > Lets see if anyone else mentions something thatâs a no-brainer. > > Tim > >> On 24 Mar 2020, at 18:40, gettimothy via Pharo-users <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>> wrote: >> >> >> From: gettimothy <gettimothy(a)zoho.com <mailto:gettimothy@zoho.com>> >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Do we have a simple markdown parser? >> Date: 24 March 2020 at 18:40:42 GMT >> To: "Any question about pharo is welcome" <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>> >> Cc: "Pharo Users Newsgroup" <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>> >> >> >> I do not know if it works on Pharo, but XTreams has a XTreams-Parsing section that I am currently working with. The existing Wikitext grammar was my starting point . >> >> https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/squeak-ci/blob/master/package-load-scri… <https://github.com/squeak-smalltalk/squeak-ci/blob/master/package-load-scri…> >> >> the existing Grammar is under: >> >> XTreams-Parsing -> PEGParser > grammars->grammarWiki >> >> >> Use case is: >> >> >> | wikiGrammar wikiParser output| >> Transcript clear. >> wikiGrammar := PEGParser grammarWiki reading positioning. >> wikiParser := PEGParser parserPEG parse: 'Grammar' stream: wikiGrammar actor: PEGParserParser new. >> input := (your string input goes here) >> output := wikiParser parse: 'Page' stream: input actor: PEGWikiGenerator new. >> output inspect. >> >> hth >> >> ---- On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 13:51:31 -0400 Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works <mailto:tim@testit.works>> wrote ---- >> >> Hi guys - do we have a simple markdown parser that is reasonably up to date? I did a quick GitHub scan and a few popped out, but I wasnât convinced I had found one the âeveryoneâ uses (albeit, everyone might be a small sample). >> >> Ideally I donât want to get sucked into writing another one (a project for a future time). >> >> Tim >> >> >> >> >

March 25, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] JRMPC Poll

by Cyril Ferlicot

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 7:29 PM Richard Kenneth Eng <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/ > > FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo. > Hi! If you discovered part of the system that are not documented enough and that blocked the participants, do not hesitate to open issues on Pharo-wiki so that we can think about documenting them in it! https://github.com/pharo-open-documentation/pharo-wiki Have a nice day. > Richard -- Cyril Ferlicot https://ferlicot.fr

March 25, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] JRMPC Poll

by horrido

Exactly! The JRMPC participants were more used to looking things up quickly and easily, rather than exploring. It's not easy to teach people how to explore a system for needed information, and more importantly, it's a time-consuming process. People are impatient. Smalltalk is not for impatient people, and that's the major problem. Ben Coman wrote > Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a > library > reference. > Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system itself > as > that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for > newcomers. > > I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image, but > I couldn't put my hands on it right now. > @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers > something more familiar to work with. > > cheers -ben > > On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng < > horrido.hobbies@ > > > wrote: > >> https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/ >> >> FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation >> for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo. >> >> Richard >> -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

March 25, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] [ANN] JRMPC Poll

by horrido

This is what I provided the JRMPC participants: https://jrmpc.ca/ (see "How to learn Smalltalk programming"). I'm not sure how I could've done better, though. You make an excellent point about duplication and keeping documentation up-to-date. However, there has to be some middle ground that makes it easier and more convenient for new developers to find the tools they need. Perhaps a synoptical reference showing the more common classes used, such as collections, web-related classes, time-related classes, exception and error classes, file system-related classes, process-related classes, and so on. These classes ought not to change much, if at all. Tim Mackinnon wrote > Or we teach people to fishâ¦? Whatâs the point of duplicating everything > thatâs already in the image anyway - we just need to be cleverer or ensure > that people know to look there and have the right onboarding experience to > do that? Otherwise its just another thing that gets out of date very > rapidly and we already have enough problems with that. > > Iâd be interested in what intro material Richard gave the students to > start with (after all - he has quite a few tutorials of his own, some of > which I had followed - but I suspect they are out of date now themselves). > When you launch pharo there is the helpful welcome screen - did the > studentâs actually use it and follow what it says? > > And did we see any of them in this forum (or was that against the rules?) > > Tim > >> On 24 Mar 2020, at 17:28, Ben Coman < > btc@ > > wrote: >> >> Pharo has some good documentation, but its more lesson-based than a >> library reference. >> Those of us familiar with Pharo know the tricks to use the system itself >> as that reference, but I'd imagine this is an unfamiliar workflow for >> newcomers. >> >> I have seen before a class library reference generated from the image, >> but I couldn't put my hands on it right now. >> @all, is it still being generated?. This might provide newcomers >> something more familiar to work with. >> >> cheers -ben >> >> On Tue, 24 Mar 2020 at 03:00, Richard Kenneth Eng < > horrido.hobbies@ > <mailto: > horrido.hobbies@ > >> wrote: >> https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/ >> <https://jrmpc.ca/2020/03/20/what-makes-learning-smalltalk-challenging/> >> >> FWIW, 95% of respondents pointed to the lack of reference documentation >> for the class library as the major obstacle to learning Smalltalk/Pharo. >> >> Richard -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

March 25, 2020