February 2020 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

by Steve Davies

Hi, Can you point me to how to unsubscribe. Obviously not the list for me. Thanks, Steve On Wed, 05 Feb 2020, 18:04 Esteban Lorenzano, <estebanlm(a)gmail.com> wrote: > We are so over this discussion. > You want to take the Smalltalk heritage as a definition, thatâs ok. > We donât, and thatâs ok too. > Is about what we want to do. > For any other argument, please take into account this thought from Alan > Kay: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMJoLicXsAA7dej?format=jpg&name=small > > The real point is: This is a list for Pharo users, about Pharo usage. > This is not comp.lang.smalltalk. > This is not /r/smalltalk > > So, while off-topic is allowed at a certain point (and while talking about > other dialects sometimes is not off-topic), please take that into account > when you smalltalk about smalltalk. > > Cheers, > Esteban > > > > On 5 Feb 2020, at 16:36, TedVanGaalen <tedvga(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Pharo IS Smalltalk, whether you like it or not. > > my 2 cents: > > > > This thread is incredibly ridiculous IMHO. > > Is this becoming something like a religious argument, > > like church schisms in medieval times? > > > > Pharo IS Smalltalk and that is good: > > That means everyone that is familiar with > > Smalltalk can use Pharo without any serious difficulties. > > > > For example, for learning, one can still use nearly everything > > from an "old" book like "Smalltalk By Example" by Alex Sharp > > from 1997 without any modifications whatsoever. > > It all works. > > > > I've ported .st files between different Smalltalk systems > > and it nearly always works without any modifications! > > > > (i don't use traits btw, because this is not Smalltalk > > as I know it and creates nasty inter-object dependencies, > > kind of "goto to attempt to multiple inheritance", but that's me :o) > > > > Apart from some minor deviations, Pharo conforms to > > nearly all Smalltalk rules, object hierarchy and syntax. > > > > The fundamental system classes throughout all Smalltalk implementations > > are virtually the same everywhere. Thank the gods for that. > > COMPATIBILITY. <- read this again if you like. > > > > > > Pharo excels in that the Pharo people did a lot of work in making > > the Pharo environment productive and a real pleasure to work with! > > but under the hood -even with the inclusion of new additions- it luckily > > still is Smalltalk. > > How can it be not: even the newer Pharo additions are in fact.. classes > > written in Smalltalk? > > > > Making too much distinctions and differences between various > implementations > > and dialects of Smalltalk is not a good idea I think. You all want to > > promote Smalltalk? Then Stick Together As Smalltalkers no matter > > what version or dialect one is using! > > Does this sound alien to you, maybe? > > > > To, me personally, it doesn't make much difference because luckily most > > Smalltalk > > implementations are mostly quite similar, allowing me to switch if needed > > between (in arbitrary order , sigh) Squeak, Pharo, VisualWorks etc. > > without too much effort. > > > > In making too much distinctions, you are in fact dividing > > the Smalltalk community, which is bad in Smalltalk's fragile world. > > Smalltalk, indeed, OOP already has too much opposition > > of those sticking to other programming techniques etc. > > > > Kind Regards > > TedvG > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > >

Feb. 5, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

by Esteban Lorenzano

We are so over this discussion. You want to take the Smalltalk heritage as a definition, thatâs ok. We donât, and thatâs ok too. Is about what we want to do. For any other argument, please take into account this thought from Alan Kay: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMJoLicXsAA7dej?format=jpg&name=small The real point is: This is a list for Pharo users, about Pharo usage. This is not comp.lang.smalltalk. This is not /r/smalltalk So, while off-topic is allowed at a certain point (and while talking about other dialects sometimes is not off-topic), please take that into account when you smalltalk about smalltalk. Cheers, Esteban > On 5 Feb 2020, at 16:36, TedVanGaalen <tedvga(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > Pharo IS Smalltalk, whether you like it or not. > my 2 cents: > > This thread is incredibly ridiculous IMHO. > Is this becoming something like a religious argument, > like church schisms in medieval times? > > Pharo IS Smalltalk and that is good: > That means everyone that is familiar with > Smalltalk can use Pharo without any serious difficulties. > > For example, for learning, one can still use nearly everything > from an "old" book like "Smalltalk By Example" by Alex Sharp > from 1997 without any modifications whatsoever. > It all works. > > I've ported .st files between different Smalltalk systems > and it nearly always works without any modifications! > > (i don't use traits btw, because this is not Smalltalk > as I know it and creates nasty inter-object dependencies, > kind of "goto to attempt to multiple inheritance", but that's me :o) > > Apart from some minor deviations, Pharo conforms to > nearly all Smalltalk rules, object hierarchy and syntax. > > The fundamental system classes throughout all Smalltalk implementations > are virtually the same everywhere. Thank the gods for that. > COMPATIBILITY. <- read this again if you like. > > > Pharo excels in that the Pharo people did a lot of work in making > the Pharo environment productive and a real pleasure to work with! > but under the hood -even with the inclusion of new additions- it luckily > still is Smalltalk. > How can it be not: even the newer Pharo additions are in fact.. classes > written in Smalltalk? > > Making too much distinctions and differences between various implementations > and dialects of Smalltalk is not a good idea I think. You all want to > promote Smalltalk? Then Stick Together As Smalltalkers no matter > what version or dialect one is using! > Does this sound alien to you, maybe? > > To, me personally, it doesn't make much difference because luckily most > Smalltalk > implementations are mostly quite similar, allowing me to switch if needed > between (in arbitrary order , sigh) Squeak, Pharo, VisualWorks etc. > without too much effort. > > In making too much distinctions, you are in fact dividing > the Smalltalk community, which is bad in Smalltalk's fragile world. > Smalltalk, indeed, OOP already has too much opposition > of those sticking to other programming techniques etc. > > Kind Regards > TedvG > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

Feb. 5, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

by TedVanGaalen

Pharo IS Smalltalk, whether you like it or not. my 2 cents: This thread is incredibly ridiculous IMHO. Is this becoming something like a religious argument, like church schisms in medieval times? Pharo IS Smalltalk and that is good: That means everyone that is familiar with Smalltalk can use Pharo without any serious difficulties. For example, for learning, one can still use nearly everything from an "old" book like "Smalltalk By Example" by Alex Sharp from 1997 without any modifications whatsoever. It all works. I've ported .st files between different Smalltalk systems and it nearly always works without any modifications! (i don't use traits btw, because this is not Smalltalk as I know it and creates nasty inter-object dependencies, kind of "goto to attempt to multiple inheritance", but that's me :o) Apart from some minor deviations, Pharo conforms to nearly all Smalltalk rules, object hierarchy and syntax. The fundamental system classes throughout all Smalltalk implementations are virtually the same everywhere. Thank the gods for that. COMPATIBILITY. <- read this again if you like. Pharo excels in that the Pharo people did a lot of work in making the Pharo environment productive and a real pleasure to work with! but under the hood -even with the inclusion of new additions- it luckily still is Smalltalk. How can it be not: even the newer Pharo additions are in fact.. classes written in Smalltalk? Making too much distinctions and differences between various implementations and dialects of Smalltalk is not a good idea I think. You all want to promote Smalltalk? Then Stick Together As Smalltalkers no matter what version or dialect one is using! Does this sound alien to you, maybe? To, me personally, it doesn't make much difference because luckily most Smalltalk implementations are mostly quite similar, allowing me to switch if needed between (in arbitrary order , sigh) Squeak, Pharo, VisualWorks etc. without too much effort. In making too much distinctions, you are in fact dividing the Smalltalk community, which is bad in Smalltalk's fragile world. Smalltalk, indeed, OOP already has too much opposition of those sticking to other programming techniques etc. Kind Regards TedvG -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Feb. 5, 2020

R: Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by Lorenzo

It will be a pleasure for me. Lorenzo Da: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di CÃ©drick BÃ©ler Inviato: mercoledÃ¬ 5 febbraio 2020 16:15 A: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk Hi Lorenzo, Thanks for the explanation. Le 5 fÃ©vr. 2020 Ã 16:06, Lorenzo <lorenzo(a)edor.it <mailto:lorenzo@edor.it> > a Ã©crit : Hi Cedrick, this version is an evolution of an application that I presented maybe at 3Â° or 4Â° ESUG held and promoted in UniversitÃ Cattolica di Brescia, were I was professor of O.R. After that, I implemented 3 or 4 new versions using some algorithms I created. I have been very lucky becouse I found a real application in foot-ball major league in Italy and I undersood the importance this field. Cool, indeed :) Than, I added genetic algorithm to my implementation in order to optimize the application and (as I had experince in stock exchange field) I developed the application I have sent to Richard. If you are interested to the application, I should be pleased to share my experience with everyone could be interested, but only if we can SHARE our experiences and, possibly to create commercial application to be sold. Iâm more inclined in open-source projects, but this being said nothing prevents commercial application. Anyway, if you want to work in this field, I will be happy to share my experience with you Iâm an assistant professor, not really working in this field (itâs Â« only Â» a tool for me to model information with its inherent (epistemic) uncertainty). Iâll contact you offlist to discuss more on the subject, especially on the way you model you fuzzy subsets. Cheers, CÃ©drick Lorenzo Da: Pharo-users [ <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org> mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di CÃ©drick BÃ©ler Inviato: mercoledÃ¬ 5 febbraio 2020 14:32 A: Any question about pharo is welcome < <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org> pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk On 5 Feb 2020, at 13:28, Lorenzo < <mailto:lorenzo@edor.it> lorenzo(a)edor.it> wrote: Anyway, if I can say my opinion, the observation ridicolous. Even though the article is interesting, there is no mention of the word 'Pharo' anywhere in the article, nor in any of the 3 slide presentations. Nor is there any Pharo or even Smalltalk code to be seen. It is interesting indeed and I also agree that at least, if we had some code to see, that would be ok to me, because people can decide to port eventually. Iâm interested in all tool that manage uncertainty. Instead of Fuzzy Logic, I chose The Transferable Belief Model [1] 10y ago, (a derivative of Dempster Shafer Theory). But this is probably different in essence, also it seems that it goes further that fuzzy logic since I see some genetic algorithms mentions. Iâd be interested though to look and try your system (and eventually port it to pharo if the licence is MIT). The term fuzzy world sounds nice to me. It is very well possible that you have an application in Pharo, if so, I and everybody on this list would be *very* interesting is learning more about it. Sure, also the thread was not easy to get. Do not take it personally, but mailing-list have to be friendly moderated ;-) Is your code open source ? Cheers, CÃ©drick [1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transferable_belief_model> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transferable_belief_model Sven

Feb. 5, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by CÃ©drick BÃ©ler

Hi Lorenzo, Thanks for the explanation. > Le 5 fÃ©vr. 2020 Ã 16:06, Lorenzo <lorenzo(a)edor.it> a Ã©crit : > > Hi Cedrick, > > this version is an evolution of an application that I presented maybe at 3Â° or 4Â° ESUG held and promoted in UniversitÃ Cattolica di Brescia, were I was professor of O.R. > After that, I implemented 3 or 4 new versions using some algorithms I created. > I have been very lucky becouse I found a real application in foot-ball major league in Italy and I undersood the importance this field. Cool, indeed :) > Than, I added genetic algorithm to my implementation in order to optimize the application and (as I had experince in stock exchange field) I developed the application I have sent to Richard. > If you are interested to the application, I should be pleased to share my experience with everyone could be interested, but only if we can SHARE our experiences and, possibly to create commercial application to be sold. Iâm more inclined in open-source projects, but this being said nothing prevents commercial application. > Anyway, if you want to work in this field, I will be happy to share my experience with you Iâm an assistant professor, not really working in this field (itâs Â« only Â» a tool for me to model information with its inherent (epistemic) uncertainty). Iâll contact you offlist to discuss more on the subject, especially on the way you model you fuzzy subsets. Cheers, CÃ©drick > > Lorenzo > > Da: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org>] Per conto di CÃ©drick BÃ©ler > Inviato: mercoledÃ¬ 5 febbraio 2020 14:32 > A: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>> > Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk > > > >> >> >>> On 5 Feb 2020, at 13:28, Lorenzo <lorenzo(a)edor.it <mailto:lorenzo@edor.it>> wrote: >>> >>> Anyway, if I can say my opinion, the observation ridicolous. >> >> Even though the article is interesting, there is no mention of the word 'Pharo' anywhere in the article, nor in any of the 3 slide presentations. Nor is there any Pharo or even Smalltalk code to be seen. > > > It is interesting indeed and I also agree that at least, if we had some code to see, that would be ok to me, because people can decide to port eventually. > > Iâm interested in all tool that manage uncertainty. Instead of Fuzzy Logic, I chose The Transferable Belief Model [1] 10y ago, (a derivative of Dempster Shafer Theory). > But this is probably different in essence, also it seems that it goes further that fuzzy logic since I see some genetic algorithms mentions. > > Iâd be interested though to look and try your system (and eventually port it to pharo if the licence is MIT). The term fuzzy world sounds nice to me. > > >> >> It is very well possible that you have an application in Pharo, if so, I and everybody on this list would be *very* interesting is learning more about it. > > Sure, also the thread was not easy to get. Do not take it personally, but mailing-list have to be friendly moderated ;-) > > Is your code open source ? > > > Cheers, > > CÃ©drick > > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transferable_belief_model <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transferable_belief_model> > > >> >> Sven >>

Feb. 5, 2020

R: Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by Lorenzo

Hi Rich, I share completely your opinion; ST is the real point; let's go on! If you are interested, I have an application (MIDA - Management Integrato Dati Aziendali) which first version has been HP official application for companies in Italy. Ciao package Lorenzo -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di horrido Inviato: mercoledÃ¬ 5 febbraio 2020 15:56 A: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk I see two major points here. First, that this forum is supposedly only for Pharo-related matters (not general Smalltalk-related matters), and second, that people want to see actual source code. I think this is too narrow a viewpoint and here's why. First, the Pharo Smalltalk Users forum is, as far as I can tell, the largest Smalltalk-related forum in the world. This is a testament to the popularity and power of Pharo. So, if you want to reach the *largest Smalltalk audience*, this is unquestionably the best forum to do so. We should not limit ourselves to only Pharo-related matters; this doesn't help the broader Smalltalk community. There are many subscribers here who use other Smalltalks. They may come here simply because the forum is so large. If the size of the Pharo forum was insignificant, why would others bother to come here? I've said this before: a rising tide lifts all boats. We should help each other...Pharo, Squeak, VA Smalltalk, GemStone/S, etc. This is a great community, so let's not sequester ourselves into cliques. Of course, I'm not suggesting that Cincom users come here for user support. Exercise good judgement here. But we can discuss Smalltalk topics of a more general nature. It's a two-way street: Pharo and other Smalltalks can cross-fertilize with each other. That's why Lorenzo's article is so valuable. Second, Lorenzo's article didn't show source code, but it did provide an interesting backdrop. We can see the value of fuzzy logic and how Lorenzo applied it. This may inspire others to follow up on this in whatever way they deem appropriate. Maybe someone will implement fuzzy logic in Pharo! That would be something. I would like to believe that the Pharo community is a generous and gracious one. That would help Smalltalkers everywhere. All for one and one for all. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Feb. 5, 2020

R: Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by Lorenzo

Hi Cedrick, this version is an evolution of an application that I presented maybe at 3Â° or 4Â° ESUG held and promoted in UniversitÃ Cattolica di Brescia, were I was professor of O.R. After that, I implemented 3 or 4 new versions using some algorithms I created. I have been very lucky becouse I found a real application in foot-ball major league in Italy and I undersood the importance this field. Than, I added genetic algorithm to my implementation in order to optimize the application and (as I had experince in stock exchange field) I developed the application I have sent to Richard. If you are interested to the application, I should be pleased to share my experience with everyone could be interested, but only if we can SHARE our experiences and, possibly to create commercial application to be sold. Anyway, if you want to work in this field, I will be happy to share my experience with you Lorenzo Da: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di CÃ©drick BÃ©ler Inviato: mercoledÃ¬ 5 febbraio 2020 14:32 A: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk On 5 Feb 2020, at 13:28, Lorenzo <lorenzo(a)edor.it <mailto:lorenzo@edor.it> > wrote: Anyway, if I can say my opinion, the observation ridicolous. Even though the article is interesting, there is no mention of the word 'Pharo' anywhere in the article, nor in any of the 3 slide presentations. Nor is there any Pharo or even Smalltalk code to be seen. It is interesting indeed and I also agree that at least, if we had some code to see, that would be ok to me, because people can decide to port eventually. Iâm interested in all tool that manage uncertainty. Instead of Fuzzy Logic, I chose The Transferable Belief Model [1] 10y ago, (a derivative of Dempster Shafer Theory). But this is probably different in essence, also it seems that it goes further that fuzzy logic since I see some genetic algorithms mentions. Iâd be interested though to look and try your system (and eventually port it to pharo if the licence is MIT). The term fuzzy world sounds nice to me. It is very well possible that you have an application in Pharo, if so, I and everybody on this list would be *very* interesting is learning more about it. Sure, also the thread was not easy to get. Do not take it personally, but mailing-list have to be friendly moderated ;-) Is your code open source ? Cheers, CÃ©drick [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transferable_belief_model Sven

Feb. 5, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by horrido

I see two major points here. First, that this forum is supposedly only for Pharo-related matters (not general Smalltalk-related matters), and second, that people want to see actual source code. I think this is too narrow a viewpoint and here's why. First, the Pharo Smalltalk Users forum is, as far as I can tell, the largest Smalltalk-related forum in the world. This is a testament to the popularity and power of Pharo. So, if you want to reach the *largest Smalltalk audience*, this is unquestionably the best forum to do so. We should not limit ourselves to only Pharo-related matters; this doesn't help the broader Smalltalk community. There are many subscribers here who use other Smalltalks. They may come here simply because the forum is so large. If the size of the Pharo forum was insignificant, why would others bother to come here? I've said this before: a rising tide lifts all boats. We should help each other...Pharo, Squeak, VA Smalltalk, GemStone/S, etc. This is a great community, so let's not sequester ourselves into cliques. Of course, I'm not suggesting that Cincom users come here for user support. Exercise good judgement here. But we can discuss Smalltalk topics of a more general nature. It's a two-way street: Pharo and other Smalltalks can cross-fertilize with each other. That's why Lorenzo's article is so valuable. Second, Lorenzo's article didn't show source code, but it did provide an interesting backdrop. We can see the value of fuzzy logic and how Lorenzo applied it. This may inspire others to follow up on this in whatever way they deem appropriate. Maybe someone will implement fuzzy logic in Pharo! That would be something. I would like to believe that the Pharo community is a generous and gracious one. That would help Smalltalkers everywhere. All for one and one for all. -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Feb. 5, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by CÃ©drick BÃ©ler

> >> On 5 Feb 2020, at 13:28, Lorenzo <lorenzo(a)edor.it> wrote: >> >> Anyway, if I can say my opinion, the observation ridicolous. > > Even though the article is interesting, there is no mention of the word 'Pharo' anywhere in the article, nor in any of the 3 slide presentations. Nor is there any Pharo or even Smalltalk code to be seen. It is interesting indeed and I also agree that at least, if we had some code to see, that would be ok to me, because people can decide to port eventually. Iâm interested in all tool that manage uncertainty. Instead of Fuzzy Logic, I chose The Transferable Belief Model [1] 10y ago, (a derivative of Dempster Shafer Theory). But this is probably different in essence, also it seems that it goes further that fuzzy logic since I see some genetic algorithms mentions. Iâd be interested though to look and try your system (and eventually port it to pharo if the licence is MIT). The term fuzzy world sounds nice to me. > > It is very well possible that you have an application in Pharo, if so, I and everybody on this list would be *very* interesting is learning more about it. Sure, also the thread was not easy to get. Do not take it personally, but mailing-list have to be friendly moderated ;-) Is your code open source ? Cheers, CÃ©drick [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transferable_belief_model <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transferable_belief_model> > > Sven > > >

Feb. 5, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] R: Fuzzy Thinking in Smalltalk

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 5 Feb 2020, at 13:28, Lorenzo <lorenzo(a)edor.it> wrote: > > Anyway, if I can say my opinion, the observation ridicolous. Even though the article is interesting, there is no mention of the word 'Pharo' anywhere in the article, nor in any of the 3 slide presentations. Nor is there any Pharo or even Smalltalk code to be seen. It is very well possible that you have an application in Pharo, if so, I and everybody on this list would be *very* interesting is learning more about it. Sven

Feb. 5, 2020