February 2020 - Pharo-users

Re: [Pharo-users] The results are in!

by horrido

Exaggeration is not a lie, especially in the context of /marketing/. We've all seen marketing campaigns on television, in social media and magazines. They all contain exaggerations and half-truths. You don't seem to understand what marketing is all about. Pavel Krivanek-3 wrote > so 8. 2. 2020 v 23:33 odesÃlatel horrido < > horrido.hobbies@ > > napsal: > >> So this forum is only for Pharo newcomers who have questions? Seems >> rather >> limiting. >> >> When I join other language forums, I look for information about the >> language >> I'm investigating as a newcomer. This can include the language's >> capabilities, limitations, real-world usage, new tools, philosophical >> basis, >> and so on. General information across a broad spectrum of topics. >> >> And, yes, even trivia and factoids that I might find interesting. I >> appreciate that you don't find this interesting, but other forum visitors >> may. >> >> If the Pharo users forum wants to, it could do something as draconian as >> StackOverflow does: put a tight leash on submitted questions and boot out >> everybody who doesn't comply. This is one reason I don't go to >> StackOverflow >> very often â they aren't welcoming to people who just want to learn >> general >> things. >> >> I've told my readers that the Pharo users forum is welcoming. Please >> don't >> make a liar out of me. >> > > We do not need to make a liar out of you. See your old e-mails: > > > > > > > > *So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who cares? > I'mtrying to change people's perception. I'm trying to *move* them. If I > haveto exaggerate, I will do so.Has everybody heard of Smalltalk? Of > course > not. And it doesn't matter. I'mtaking /literary licence/. As a writer and > a > marketer, I am allowed to dothis.* > > -- Pavel > > Guillermo Polito wrote >> > Hi Richard, >> > >> > Iâd like to invite you to refrain yourself from posting such off-topic >> > messages in the future. >> > >> > This list is for people to *ask* questions about Pharo. Not to diffuse >> any >> > kind of propaganda (pharo related or not). >> > Youâre not asking a question about Pharo, nor answering a question >> about >> > Pharo. >> > So I personally find all these emails off-topic and uninteresting. >> > >> > I have the feeling this list has been lately flooded with such >> off-topic >> > messages. >> > And this only chases off this list people really interested about the >> main >> > topic of the list (like me). >> > >> > Maybe this shows this competition / PR campaign youâre running needs >> > another channel? >> > I know you donât agree, but I invite you to read here the **purpose** >> of >> > this list, just for respect to people subscribed to it: >> > https://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org >> > < >> https://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org> >> > >> > Thanks for your comprehension, >> > Guille >> > >> >> El 8 feb 2020, a las 19:12, Richard Kenneth Eng < >> >> > horrido.hobbies@ >> >> > > escribiÃ³: >> >> >> >> Round 1 â #1 Leading Team: https://youtu.be/QWHeN5WXfBQ >> >> <https://youtu.be/QWHeN5WXfBQ> >> >> >> >> I'm actually quite amazed by their effort. They surpassed my >> >> expectations. >> >> >> >> At the risk of sounding immodest, I think this is a terrific way to >> >> promote Smalltalk (Pharo). I think the video is an absolute blast. >> >> >> >> Richard >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> >> -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Feb. 9, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] About "it's not pharo but smalltalk"

by Trygve Reenskaug

+10 Ted, I have recently completed a conceptual model with tools for a new way of programming for novices. It works under Squeak version 3.10.2 and it is tempting to port it to the current version of Pharo to make it generally available. This will take time, and the port will probably be outdated and useless by the time it's finished. I'm 90, so the temptation is resisted and story ends here. Best --Trygve On 08.02.2020 18:02, TedVanGaalen wrote: > Hi Ben > Maybe you misunderstood what I meant. > I was thinking of Pharo-backward-compatibility. > not Smalltalk-backward-compatibility > > I am only suggesting that Pharo should be downward compatible > (that is, within Pharo's scope only). > meaning that everything built wit Pharo version X > should load and run in Pharo pharo version X + n > without any changes. > > This means that a package/app running OK in Pharo 8, > should work without any changes whatsoever > in, say, Pharo 12, ca 2 years later. and even beyond that, > preferably many Pharo releases later! > > Therefore, any extension/improvement of Pharo itself should be done > on top of that, not by replacing/deprecating existing classes. > As not to break downward compatibility. > > (looking at the basic underlying system classes, it looks > like this has already been done that way in most cases, > simply because Smalltalk is a hierarchical rooted object system, > which means that changing the deeper is very hard because > it (could) tears up the very fabric of Smalltalk/Pharo itself, > right?) > > > If one reads through this Pharo user forum, and also many other > Smalltalk forums, you can read about many cases of packages that > no longer will work after yet another version of Pharo is released. > This is unacceptable: new Pharo releases should not break those > packages. > > read again: >> Downward compatibility prevents people >> from have tediously edit and test their packages >> again and again each time some have >> the "brilliant" idea to deprecate stuff. > Let's assume for a moment that I want (currently i don't) > to create a package/application, taking many months of my precious time. > After a long time, my hard work is finally completed and tested: wow, the > big dragon flies! > > However, yet another year later, it no longer loads and I have to spend a > considerable amount of time re-editing and testing my package to get > it working correctly again, let alone thereby considering the delicate > interaction > with other third party packages that -guess what?- > are dealing with similar release breaking problems at the same time. > > Unnecessary work, repeating itself with almost every new version of Pharo. > > Realizing that this is an almost eternal trap, this suffices to deter me > from even > starting to create such a package! Thus trying to avoid a very tedious > and iterating process of repairing things that once were perfectly OK. > > Somehow many don't seem get this: > Too academic? making some sort of hobby out of their work. > without realizing real-world situations in a though production/industrial > environment. In combination with the lack of standardization of Smalltalk, > this is probably one the reasons the installed base of Smalltalk > (and Pharo based apps) is very small. > > If one doesn't understand this, one should ask themselves why the heck > they are software developers in the first place. > > On IBM mainframes I can still load and recompile unchanged COBOL source > files > from ca. 1974 and they'll run flawlessly: more than 40 years later. > (btw your bank account runs on mainframes, probably in COBOL btw.) > > Of course it is a splendid idea to improve Pharo, > seeing how Pharo is now, great to work with. > However, this should be done in such a way that > downward compatibility is guaranteed. > > > > IMHO, Regards > TedvG. > > > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > -- /The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborateto achieve a goal. / Trygve Reenskaug mailto: trygver(a)ifi.uio.no <mailto:%20trygver@ifi.uio.no> Morgedalsvn. 5A http://folk.uio.no/trygver/ N-0378 Oslo http://fullOO.info NorwayÂ Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Tel: (+47) 468 58 625

Feb. 9, 2020

The expanding Pharo ecosystem

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

Hi, Let's take a moment to contemplate on the breath and the depth of the expanding Pharo ecosystem. So much is happening that it is very hard to keep track, let alone look at everything or try it out. Marcus' excellent curated Pharo Newsletter is one place to see this. Take the February 2020 list of New/Updated Libraries and Frameworks at the end: https://mailchi.mp/pharo/pharo-newsletter-february-2020 This is one of the longest enumerations I have seen so far. The great thing is that it is like that almost every month. Check out the archive: https://us11.campaign-archive.com/home/?u=6f667565c2569234585a7be77&id=0486… Of course, GitHub is also a good way to see this happening. The main entry being: https://github.com/pharo-project/ Which contains several overviews: https://github.com/pharo-project/PharoMap https://github.com/pharo-open-documentation/awesome-pharo Topic tags automatically organise some projects: https://github.com/topics/pharo https://github.com/topics/pharo-smalltalk What all this comes down to is that Pharo has many recently developed, actively maintained options to get your job done: to model your domain, to build your user interface, to talk to other systems, to speak other protocols, to interface with the world, to deploy and to deliver your applications. Similarly, Pavel recently did a very good job at the describing why Pharo itself is so great: https://github.com/pavel-krivanek/pharoMaterials/blob/master/features/Pharo… So thanks to all of you for helping to make Pharo into what it is. Thanks to our users: for your questions, you're feedback, your bug reports. Thanks to those helping out others on the mailing lists. Thanks to everyone who ever blogged or otherwise wrote about their experiences with Pharo. Thanks to the contributors involved in constantly improving Pharo with Pull Requests, to those working hard to maintain the process and the machinery behind the development process. Thanks to all the developers producing and maintaining the many libraries and frameworks that help us in our day to day work. Thanks to those writing documentation. Thank you. Sven PS: This is already a long email, but I know that I forgot many important points, feel free to add them in reply. -- Sven Van Caekenberghe Proudly supporting Pharo http://pharo.org http://association.pharo.org http://consortium.pharo.org

Feb. 9, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] The results are in!

by Pavel Krivanek

so 8. 2. 2020 v 23:58 odesÃlatel Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users < pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> napsal: > I guess I have to re-ask again since nobody answered my question from > this week... > > Where can we post Pharo > questions/remarks/thoughts/you-might-want-to-have-a-look-at-this-cool-idea/whatever > > (or anything that could be of any interest to Pharoers) ? > > MAYBE we need another list... > > This is getting ridiculous! The guy spends energy, time, effort and is > able to gather 13K in prizes and puts Pharo to the forefront with this > cool contest in schools, makes a lot of youngsters learn & use Pharo for > their projects, puts up a website, makes videos, writes blog posts, > PROMOTES Pharo and he gets slapped for posting here ?!?! WTF ??? > You need to see the whole story. This guy with a messianic syndrome started his aggressive campaign by spitting on every other programming language and he is constantly spamming the social media by void articles that are often full of lies while showing whole community in a very bad light of fanatic fools. He (alone) came with the idea of the competition and started to demand money for it. Then he started to blame anyone who didn't want to provide money to him. He is constantly rejecting any critique and feedback so do not be surprised that otherwise very friendly people are losing their patience. -- Pavel > > Where should he post? Where should I post ? > > On 2020-02-08 17:35, Guillermo Polito wrote: > > Hi Richard, > > > > Iâd like to invite you to refrain yourself from posting such off-topic > > messages in the future. > > > -- > ----------------- > BenoÃ®t St-Jean > Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean > Twitter: @BenLeChialeux > Pinterest: benoitstjean > Instagram: Chef_Benito > IRC: lamneth > GitHub: bstjean > Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com > "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) > > >

Feb. 9, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] The results are in!

by Pavel Krivanek

so 8. 2. 2020 v 23:33 odesÃlatel horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> napsal: > So this forum is only for Pharo newcomers who have questions? Seems rather > limiting. > > When I join other language forums, I look for information about the > language > I'm investigating as a newcomer. This can include the language's > capabilities, limitations, real-world usage, new tools, philosophical > basis, > and so on. General information across a broad spectrum of topics. > > And, yes, even trivia and factoids that I might find interesting. I > appreciate that you don't find this interesting, but other forum visitors > may. > > If the Pharo users forum wants to, it could do something as draconian as > StackOverflow does: put a tight leash on submitted questions and boot out > everybody who doesn't comply. This is one reason I don't go to > StackOverflow > very often â they aren't welcoming to people who just want to learn general > things. > > I've told my readers that the Pharo users forum is welcoming. Please don't > make a liar out of me. > We do not need to make a liar out of you. See your old e-mails: *So, is Pharo being used to fight Ebola? Not exactly, but who cares? I'mtrying to change people's perception. I'm trying to *move* them. If I haveto exaggerate, I will do so.Has everybody heard of Smalltalk? Of course not. And it doesn't matter. I'mtaking /literary licence/. As a writer and a marketer, I am allowed to dothis.* -- Pavel Guillermo Polito wrote > > Hi Richard, > > > > Iâd like to invite you to refrain yourself from posting such off-topic > > messages in the future. > > > > This list is for people to *ask* questions about Pharo. Not to diffuse > any > > kind of propaganda (pharo related or not). > > Youâre not asking a question about Pharo, nor answering a question about > > Pharo. > > So I personally find all these emails off-topic and uninteresting. > > > > I have the feeling this list has been lately flooded with such off-topic > > messages. > > And this only chases off this list people really interested about the > main > > topic of the list (like me). > > > > Maybe this shows this competition / PR campaign youâre running needs > > another channel? > > I know you donât agree, but I invite you to read here the **purpose** of > > this list, just for respect to people subscribed to it: > > https://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org > > < > https://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org> > > > > Thanks for your comprehension, > > Guille > > > >> El 8 feb 2020, a las 19:12, Richard Kenneth Eng < > > > horrido.hobbies@ > > > > escribiÃ³: > >> > >> Round 1 â #1 Leading Team: https://youtu.be/QWHeN5WXfBQ > >> <https://youtu.be/QWHeN5WXfBQ> > >> > >> I'm actually quite amazed by their effort. They surpassed my > >> expectations. > >> > >> At the risk of sounding immodest, I think this is a terrific way to > >> promote Smalltalk (Pharo). I think the video is an absolute blast. > >> > >> Richard > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > >

Feb. 9, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] NeoJSONParseError: invalid input: ' while parsing a Wikipedia exported article.

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Hi, My hypothesis was closer to Erik's but I thought that being a JSON taken from Wikimedia API, it should be correct. I didn't realize that I converted it to STON to preserve line breaks and improve diff friendliness. After using `STON fromString:` as advised by Peter, everything worked well. Thanks everyone for their timely "wisdom nuggets". I learned a little by with each message here. Cheers, Offray On 8/02/20 5:35 a.Â m., Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > Hi, > > Like Erik says the input is indeed illegal JSON. JSON strings are delimited using double quotes not single quotes. There is no way around this, this is not optional. > > As Peter says, STON is more flexible. STON itself uses single quotes to be closer to Smalltalk. STON in its JSON compatibility mode does also recognise double quotes. So the class STONReader supports both, without further configuration. > > Sven > >> On 8 Feb 2020, at 10:34, PBKResearch <peter(a)pbkresearch.co.uk> wrote: >> >> Offray >> >> I have a workaround, not an explanation. I don't use NeoJSON, because for me the JSON facilities of STON are sufficient. So I tried you script with 'NeoJSONReader fromString:' replaced by 'STON fromString:' - everything worked perfectly, no parsing error. So clearly there is nothing wrong with your input file. If you have STON installed, or think it worth installing, this could get you moving. >> >> HTH >> >> Peter Kenny >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas >> Sent: 08 February 2020 07:38 >> To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> >> Subject: [Pharo-users] NeoJSONParseError: invalid input: ' while parsing a Wikipedia exported article. >> >> Hi, >> >> I'm trying to read the contents of a Wikipedia article that was exported from there using Wikipedias JSON API. >> >> The script I'm trying is: >> >> NeoJSONReader fromString: >> 'https://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/pharopedia/doc/tip/docs/wikipedia.org/wiki…' >> asUrl retrieveContents utf8Decoded >> >> But I get "NeoJSONParseError: invalid input: '". As far as I can tell, the file at [1] seems like valid JSON, as is the one that Wikipedia API exports >> >> [1] >> 'https://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/pharopedia/doc/tip/docs/wikipedia.org/wiki…' >> >> Could anybody point me to a solution? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Offray >> >> >> >

Feb. 9, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] The results are in!

by horrido

Self-promotion??? I generally dislike inserting myself personally into Smalltalk advocacy. My campaign is all about Smalltalk; I'm just the vehicle. If you're referring to my comment "at the risk of sounding immodest," I am rightfully proud of my video. It does a damn good job of promoting Pharo. Beyond that, however, I don't ever want this campaign to be about me. So what self-promotion are you referring to? As for "content-free," the video is good content, at least, from the perspective of marketing. Of course, you wouldn't think it was valid content if you don't believe in marketing Pharo, a sentiment that I think is unfortunately shared by many in this forum. Pierce Ng-3 wrote > On Sat, Feb 08, 2020 at 05:50:18PM -0500, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users > wrote: >> MAYBE we need another list... > > Maybe Richard just needs to adjust the style of his mails... > >> This is getting ridiculous!Â The guy spends energy, time, effort and is >> able >> to gather 13K in prizes and puts Pharo to the forefront with this cool >> contest in schools, makes a lot of youngsters learn & use Pharo for their >> projects, puts up a website, makes videos, writes blog posts, PROMOTES >> Pharo >> and he gets slapped for posting here ?!?!Â WTF ??? > > Like if the subject of Richard's mail is "Pharo success story part 3: > blah blah" and his opening paragraph is descriptive, similar to what you > wrote above, I'd read the mail and watch the video. As it is, his mail > is content-free and comes across purely as self-promotion. > > Pierce -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Feb. 9, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] The results are in!

by Pierce Ng

On Sat, Feb 08, 2020 at 05:50:18PM -0500, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-users wrote: > MAYBE we need another list... Maybe Richard just needs to adjust the style of his mails... > This is getting ridiculous!Â The guy spends energy, time, effort and is able > to gather 13K in prizes and puts Pharo to the forefront with this cool > contest in schools, makes a lot of youngsters learn & use Pharo for their > projects, puts up a website, makes videos, writes blog posts, PROMOTES Pharo > and he gets slapped for posting here ?!?!Â WTF ??? Like if the subject of Richard's mail is "Pharo success story part 3: blah blah" and his opening paragraph is descriptive, similar to what you wrote above, I'd read the mail and watch the video. As it is, his mail is content-free and comes across purely as self-promotion. Pierce

Feb. 9, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] The results are in!

by Benoit St-Jean

I guess I have to re-ask again since nobody answered my question from this week... Where can we post Pharo questions/remarks/thoughts/you-might-want-to-have-a-look-at-this-cool-idea/whatever (or anything that could be of any interest to Pharoers) ? MAYBE we need another list... This is getting ridiculous!Â The guy spends energy, time, effort and is able to gather 13K in prizes and puts Pharo to the forefront with this cool contest in schools, makes a lot of youngsters learn & use Pharo for their projects, puts up a website, makes videos, writes blog posts, PROMOTES Pharo and he gets slapped for posting here ?!?!Â WTF ??? Where should he post?Â Where should I post ? On 2020-02-08 17:35, Guillermo Polito wrote: > Hi Richard, > > Iâd like to invite you to refrain yourself from posting such off-topic > messages in the future. > -- ----------------- BenoÃ®t St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean Instagram: Chef_Benito IRC: lamneth GitHub: bstjean Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein)

Feb. 8, 2020

Re: [Pharo-users] The results are in!

by Guillermo Polito

Hi Richard, Iâd like to invite you to refrain yourself from posting such off-topic messages in the future. This list is for people to *ask* questions about Pharo. Not to diffuse any kind of propaganda (pharo related or not). Youâre not asking a question about Pharo, nor answering a question about Pharo. So I personally find all these emails off-topic and uninteresting. I have the feeling this list has been lately flooded with such off-topic messages. And this only chases off this list people really interested about the main topic of the list (like me). Maybe this shows this competition / PR campaign youâre running needs another channel? I know you donât agree, but I invite you to read here the **purpose** of this list, just for respect to people subscribed to it: https://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org Thanks for your comprehension, Guille > El 8 feb 2020, a las 23:33, horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com> escribiÃ³: > > So this forum is only for Pharo newcomers who have questions? Seems rather > limiting. > > When I join other language forums, I look for information about the language > I'm investigating as a newcomer. This can include the language's > capabilities, limitations, real-world usage, new tools, philosophical basis, > and so on. General information across a broad spectrum of topics. > > And, yes, even trivia and factoids that I might find interesting. I > appreciate that you don't find this interesting, but other forum visitors > may. > > If the Pharo users forum wants to, it could do something as draconian as > StackOverflow does: put a tight leash on submitted questions and boot out > everybody who doesn't comply. This is one reason I don't go to StackOverflow > very often â they aren't welcoming to people who just want to learn general > things. > > I've told my readers that the Pharo users forum is welcoming. Please don't > make a liar out of me. > > > > Guillermo Polito wrote >> Hi Richard, >> >> Iâd like to invite you to refrain yourself from posting such off-topic >> messages in the future. >> >> This list is for people to *ask* questions about Pharo. Not to diffuse any >> kind of propaganda (pharo related or not). >> Youâre not asking a question about Pharo, nor answering a question about >> Pharo. >> So I personally find all these emails off-topic and uninteresting. >> >> I have the feeling this list has been lately flooded with such off-topic >> messages. >> And this only chases off this list people really interested about the main >> topic of the list (like me). >> >> Maybe this shows this competition / PR campaign youâre running needs >> another channel? >> I know you donât agree, but I invite you to read here the **purpose** of >> this list, just for respect to people subscribed to it: >> https://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org >> <https://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org&gt <https://lists.pharo.org/mailman/listinfo/pharo-users_lists.pharo.org&gt>; >> >> Thanks for your comprehension, >> Guille >> >>> El 8 feb 2020, a las 19:12, Richard Kenneth Eng < > >> horrido.hobbies@ > >> > escribiÃ³: >>> >>> Round 1 â #1 Leading Team: https://youtu.be/QWHeN5WXfBQ <https://youtu.be/QWHeN5WXfBQ> >>> <https://youtu.be/QWHeN5WXfBQ&gt <https://youtu.be/QWHeN5WXfBQ&gt>; >>> >>> I'm actually quite amazed by their effort. They surpassed my >>> expectations. >>> >>> At the risk of sounding immodest, I think this is a terrific way to >>> promote Smalltalk (Pharo). I think the video is an absolute blast. >>> >>> Richard > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html>

Feb. 8, 2020