October 2020 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

On 6/10/20 2:25 p.Â m., jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de wrote: >>> - Choose Boring Technology - http://boringtechnology.club/ >> This made my day. Thank you :-) > > Had never heard of this guy, but his site feels like home to me. Makes > me a proud user of Smalltalk and DB2 after 25+ years ;-) > > He forgot to mention that boring technology can be quite interesting > and cool, even if it is about to turn 50 years... And he's absolutely > right about the fact that shipiing something useful for users makes > you much more happy (and busy) than shipping something on top of an > incredibly complicated and bloated technology stack... > Unfortunately software tech industry is co-opted by hype, trends and big numbers. In that sense, Pharo or Fossil or technology that doesn't fit that trio seems non boring for those used to evaluate safeness there. In my hackerspace the ones used to more popular tech look at Pharo as too strange (risky?), but those who don't have any preconception, mainly non-programmers (by education or trade) have no problem accepting Pharo, Fossil and more simple and agile technologies. We deliver value swiftly from the margins, without being trapped by hype o big numbers. I wonder how this organic, resilient and innovative growth can be more visible, despite of being so far away of the usual places where most tech related individuals, communities and investors look for. Offray

Oct. 7, 2020

Re: Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by Tim Mackinnon

Oh.. and blimey , look what I just found in my spam bucket âthey are watching meâ¦ â - > "We are excited to announce the General Availability of DigitalOcean App Platform <https://pages.news.digitalocean.com/I0o2WEY06sliXV32090ID00>, a reimagined platform as a service (PaaS) that makes it much simpler and faster to build, deploy, and scale apps. App Platform does the heavy lifting of managing infrastructure, app runtimes, and dependencies â so you can focus on what matters the most: building awesome apps.â Possibly with its Docker support, perhaps Pharo might slot it, and they take care of everything for meâ¦ well hereâs hoping right? Tim > On 6 Oct 2020, at 21:41, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > > Gosh - this is proving much more interesting than I had imagined, and Iâm getting lots of useful input, so I double appreciate the time and thoughts from everyone. > > I probably should have said that my "super awesome idea" is just a little flashcard spelling app for my daughter (and possibly a few friends in her class) - so probably SimplePersistance will do in this case, however the comments about making a persistence decision at the right moment are super interesting - and as always, its about spotting the right moment to do thatâ¦ and ideally you have well factored code with ample tests that help you easily move from the idea, to something more scalable or robustâ¦ however, move too soon and you get bogged down with the details and you lose site of an MVP. > > It has been interesting hearing peoples thoughts on all of thisâ¦ the turning tide on ORMâs, the potential sweet allure of a NoSql (but can you query it easily) - and then the overarching element of just setting this shit up (where hopefully Docker steps in to make that bit at least easy). I suppose this is where the Rails scaffolding was/is? such a jumpstart, you can get a full thing going quite easily, and deploying seems relatively easy tooâ¦ for us in Smalltalk land, its still a bit too much work for my liking, compared to the ease of getting an image and coding, and seeing it all work. It does seem to be getting marginally better at least, but I do wish there was super easy setup with all the pieces nicely in place so it was just your idea that you could focus onâ¦ > > Anyway, that login screenâ¦ oh crap I have to write one of thoseâ¦ > > Tim > >> On 6 Oct 2020, at 20:56, jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de wrote: >> >> Sean, >> >> thanks for your short overview of what SimplePersistence does. Sounds useful for quite a few scenarios and might even carry you well through production stages for some projects. >> What I was talking about is also not meant to frustrate people. I've only played with Mongo/Voyage for a few hours and I must say I was blown away by the speed and ease of that stack. We got something running in a few hours and it was impressive. So Mongo/Voyage is a cool thing to use. >> >> I always wanted to use Magna on Pharo. I even started to implement my own little clone of Magna in VA Smalltalk. I got into troubles when I tried to nest transactions and get this concurrency stuff streamlined somehow. We all know that besides naming and one-off problems, caching and concurreny are the hardest problems in computing. I think there is something about this. And so I gave up on that project... ;-) >> >> In the end I went with Glorp and DB2 (soon PostgreSQL). So far I am in a very solid state somewhere between complete despair and freaking out about how cool things are. I love and hate that stack from the bottom of my heart. >> >> The cool thing about an RDB is (and will sure be for quite a while) three letters. S, Q and L. There are lots of highly sophisticated GUI tools to query, manage, correct your data. And you can simply do everything form a command prompt, in an ssh session from your smartphone in a hotel toilet on the other side of the planet. >> >> Sure, using pure Smalltalk objects and not worry about n:m relationships, not having to write mappings and not having to end up with an object model that is driven mostly by what your O/R mapper can handle, sound great. And it is. Until you realize you also need to think about query optimizations, reorganizations, indexes and whatnot in an object database. There are also compromises to make. >> >> But, hey, I said all of that before. >> >> So maybe approaches like fuel, SimplePersistence (or BOSS or Object Swapper) are the best thing to start with when you need to find out about your architectural and business ideas first (am I building the right thing, will this feel good to a user, etc.), but once you are beyond that state, you better dive into your options and decide soon. Maybe using image saving or SimplePersistence is even good for production in your case. It was good enough for dabbleDB for quite a while, iirc, so why shouldn't it work for others? And maybe that is even the best you can do to postpone the decision for as long as possible at minimum opportunity cost. >> >> I didn't dig deep enough into Voyage/Mongo to judge how expensive or risky the changes to the design are. How hard is it to restructure the root trees - say you need something that is now beneath some root to be a root of its own? How would you do such changes? >> >> I know I can do a lot of things of that kind with SQL. It is a second looking glass and set of tools to view and manipulate the data. Sometimes things are easier to do in Smalltalk, sometimes it is way too slow on top of an ORM and a SQL query can do the same thing in a few milliseconds. >> >> But maybe I am asking the wrong questions fo Tim's purposes. I think I understand what you (Tim) are looking for is not a big, complex project but more like an experiment? I don't want to invalidate any of the given suggestions, I know or at least believe that they each do a good job. All I really wanted to warn you is that you will not easily be able to go from one option to another, because each will have a deep impact on your object model and application architecture. >> >> Joachim >> >> >> >> >> Am 06.10.20 um 16:34 schrieb Sean P. DeNigris via Pharo-users: >>> jtuchel wrote >>>> Sigh. Forget about the idea that it will be easy to switch your >>>> persistence later....I am not commenting on SimplePersistence here, I >>>> don't even know what it >>>> does or doesn't. >>> Joachim, >>> Thanks for this interesting perspective. I've never had the (mis?!)fortune >>> of a project growing enough to force me to make those tough choices! For >>> SimplePersistence I will say that I view it as a way to *delay* making *any* >>> choices until you are forced to. It's really just a layer of sugar on top of >>> Fuel (it used to use the old school Squeak equivalent serialization >>> mechanism - I forget the name and that might still work). You tell it what >>> classes to serialize. Implement two methods for each class that get and set >>> the data, and then it saves the whole thing as one object graph. >>> >>> Tim, >>> If you use SimplePersistence, please keep me posted about your experience. >>> I'm happy to help. >>> >>> NB I have maintained and extended the library, but it is the work of Ramon >>> Leon >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> Cheers, >>> Sean >>> -- >>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> >> >> -- >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de >> Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de >> D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com >> Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 >>

Oct. 6, 2020

[Ann] IndieWeb and pocket infrastructures: 5th biweekly workshop this Saturday (3:15 PM - 7:15 PM, GMT-5)

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

Hi all, This is just a short reminder about our biweekly Grafoscopio community workshops about IndieWeb and pocket infrastructures (in Spanish). You can find more information about them on: [1] https://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/indieweb/doc/trunk/docs/es/index.html#tall… It has been really nice to see how workshops, prose and code advance intertwined and feedback each other in this community experience made on a voluntary basis. In the "behind scenes" links below you can see how the writing advances at a pretty good pace. Also I would like to thank ESUG for their key support to this initiative. Cheers, Offray Ps: here are the "behind scenes" links [2] https://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/indieweb/timeline [3] https://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/indieweb/tree?ci=tip&name=docs/es&type=tree [4] https://code.tupale.co/Offray/Brea [5] https://mutabit.com/repos.fossil/brea/

Oct. 6, 2020

Re: Standalone html builder (a la seaside without seaside?)

by Torsten Bergmann

Oct. 6, 2020

[ANN] HighchartsSt v12.1.0 [v12.1.0] released!

by Buenos Aires Smalltalk

Oct. 6, 2020

Re: Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by Tim Mackinnon

Gosh - this is proving much more interesting than I had imagined, and Iâm getting lots of useful input, so I double appreciate the time and thoughts from everyone. I probably should have said that my "super awesome idea" is just a little flashcard spelling app for my daughter (and possibly a few friends in her class) - so probably SimplePersistance will do in this case, however the comments about making a persistence decision at the right moment are super interesting - and as always, its about spotting the right moment to do thatâ¦ and ideally you have well factored code with ample tests that help you easily move from the idea, to something more scalable or robustâ¦ however, move too soon and you get bogged down with the details and you lose site of an MVP. It has been interesting hearing peoples thoughts on all of thisâ¦ the turning tide on ORMâs, the potential sweet allure of a NoSql (but can you query it easily) - and then the overarching element of just setting this shit up (where hopefully Docker steps in to make that bit at least easy). I suppose this is where the Rails scaffolding was/is? such a jumpstart, you can get a full thing going quite easily, and deploying seems relatively easy tooâ¦ for us in Smalltalk land, its still a bit too much work for my liking, compared to the ease of getting an image and coding, and seeing it all work. It does seem to be getting marginally better at least, but I do wish there was super easy setup with all the pieces nicely in place so it was just your idea that you could focus onâ¦ Anyway, that login screenâ¦ oh crap I have to write one of thoseâ¦ Tim > On 6 Oct 2020, at 20:56, jtuchel(a)objektfabrik.de wrote: > > Sean, > > thanks for your short overview of what SimplePersistence does. Sounds useful for quite a few scenarios and might even carry you well through production stages for some projects. > What I was talking about is also not meant to frustrate people. I've only played with Mongo/Voyage for a few hours and I must say I was blown away by the speed and ease of that stack. We got something running in a few hours and it was impressive. So Mongo/Voyage is a cool thing to use. > > I always wanted to use Magna on Pharo. I even started to implement my own little clone of Magna in VA Smalltalk. I got into troubles when I tried to nest transactions and get this concurrency stuff streamlined somehow. We all know that besides naming and one-off problems, caching and concurreny are the hardest problems in computing. I think there is something about this. And so I gave up on that project... ;-) > > In the end I went with Glorp and DB2 (soon PostgreSQL). So far I am in a very solid state somewhere between complete despair and freaking out about how cool things are. I love and hate that stack from the bottom of my heart. > > The cool thing about an RDB is (and will sure be for quite a while) three letters. S, Q and L. There are lots of highly sophisticated GUI tools to query, manage, correct your data. And you can simply do everything form a command prompt, in an ssh session from your smartphone in a hotel toilet on the other side of the planet. > > Sure, using pure Smalltalk objects and not worry about n:m relationships, not having to write mappings and not having to end up with an object model that is driven mostly by what your O/R mapper can handle, sound great. And it is. Until you realize you also need to think about query optimizations, reorganizations, indexes and whatnot in an object database. There are also compromises to make. > > But, hey, I said all of that before. > > So maybe approaches like fuel, SimplePersistence (or BOSS or Object Swapper) are the best thing to start with when you need to find out about your architectural and business ideas first (am I building the right thing, will this feel good to a user, etc.), but once you are beyond that state, you better dive into your options and decide soon. Maybe using image saving or SimplePersistence is even good for production in your case. It was good enough for dabbleDB for quite a while, iirc, so why shouldn't it work for others? And maybe that is even the best you can do to postpone the decision for as long as possible at minimum opportunity cost. > > I didn't dig deep enough into Voyage/Mongo to judge how expensive or risky the changes to the design are. How hard is it to restructure the root trees - say you need something that is now beneath some root to be a root of its own? How would you do such changes? > > I know I can do a lot of things of that kind with SQL. It is a second looking glass and set of tools to view and manipulate the data. Sometimes things are easier to do in Smalltalk, sometimes it is way too slow on top of an ORM and a SQL query can do the same thing in a few milliseconds. > > But maybe I am asking the wrong questions fo Tim's purposes. I think I understand what you (Tim) are looking for is not a big, complex project but more like an experiment? I don't want to invalidate any of the given suggestions, I know or at least believe that they each do a good job. All I really wanted to warn you is that you will not easily be able to go from one option to another, because each will have a deep impact on your object model and application architecture. > > Joachim > > > > > Am 06.10.20 um 16:34 schrieb Sean P. DeNigris via Pharo-users: >> jtuchel wrote >>> Sigh. Forget about the idea that it will be easy to switch your >>> persistence later....I am not commenting on SimplePersistence here, I >>> don't even know what it >>> does or doesn't. >> Joachim, >> Thanks for this interesting perspective. I've never had the (mis?!)fortune >> of a project growing enough to force me to make those tough choices! For >> SimplePersistence I will say that I view it as a way to *delay* making *any* >> choices until you are forced to. It's really just a layer of sugar on top of >> Fuel (it used to use the old school Squeak equivalent serialization >> mechanism - I forget the name and that might still work). You tell it what >> classes to serialize. Implement two methods for each class that get and set >> the data, and then it saves the whole thing as one object graph. >> >> Tim, >> If you use SimplePersistence, please keep me posted about your experience. >> I'm happy to help. >> >> NB I have maintained and extended the library, but it is the work of Ramon >> Leon >> >> >> >> ----- >> Cheers, >> Sean >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de > Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de > D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com > Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1 >

Oct. 6, 2020

Re: Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by jtuchel＠objektfabrik.de

Sean, thanks for your short overview of what SimplePersistence does. Sounds useful for quite a few scenarios and might even carry you well through production stages for some projects. What I was talking about is also not meant to frustrate people. I've only played with Mongo/Voyage for a few hours and I must say I was blown away by the speed and ease of that stack. We got something running in a few hours and it was impressive. So Mongo/Voyage is a cool thing to use. I always wanted to use Magna on Pharo. I even started to implement my own little clone of Magna in VA Smalltalk. I got into troubles when I tried to nest transactions and get this concurrency stuff streamlined somehow. We all know that besides naming and one-off problems, caching and concurreny are the hardest problems in computing. I think there is something about this. And so I gave up on that project... ;-) In the end I went with Glorp and DB2 (soon PostgreSQL). So far I am in a very solid state somewhere between complete despair and freaking out about how cool things are. I love and hate that stack from the bottom of my heart. The cool thing about an RDB is (and will sure be for quite a while) three letters. S, Q and L. There are lots of highly sophisticated GUI tools to query, manage, correct your data. And you can simply do everything form a command prompt, in an ssh session from your smartphone in a hotel toilet on the other side of the planet. Sure, using pure Smalltalk objects and not worry about n:m relationships, not having to write mappings and not having to end up with an object model that is driven mostly by what your O/R mapper can handle, sound great. And it is. Until you realize you also need to think about query optimizations, reorganizations, indexes and whatnot in an object database. There are also compromises to make. But, hey, I said all of that before. So maybe approaches like fuel, SimplePersistence (or BOSS or Object Swapper) are the best thing to start with when you need to find out about your architectural and business ideas first (am I building the right thing, will this feel good to a user, etc.), but once you are beyond that state, you better dive into your options and decide soon. Maybe using image saving or SimplePersistence is even good for production in your case. It was good enough for dabbleDB for quite a while, iirc, so why shouldn't it work for others? And maybe that is even the best you can do to postpone the decision for as long as possible at minimum opportunity cost. I didn't dig deep enough into Voyage/Mongo to judge how expensive or risky the changes to the design are. How hard is it to restructure the root trees - say you need something that is now beneath some root to be a root of its own? How would you do such changes? I know I can do a lot of things of that kind with SQL. It is a second looking glass and set of tools to view and manipulate the data. Sometimes things are easier to do in Smalltalk, sometimes it is way too slow on top of an ORM and a SQL query can do the same thing in a few milliseconds. But maybe I am asking the wrong questions fo Tim's purposes. I think I understand what you (Tim) are looking for is not a big, complex project but more like an experiment? I don't want to invalidate any of the given suggestions, I know or at least believe that they each do a good job. All I really wanted to warn you is that you will not easily be able to go from one option to another, because each will have a deep impact on your object model and application architecture. Joachim Am 06.10.20 um 16:34 schrieb Sean P. DeNigris via Pharo-users: > jtuchel wrote >> Sigh. Forget about the idea that it will be easy to switch your >> persistence later....I am not commenting on SimplePersistence here, I >> don't even know what it >> does or doesn't. > Joachim, > Thanks for this interesting perspective. I've never had the (mis?!)fortune > of a project growing enough to force me to make those tough choices! For > SimplePersistence I will say that I view it as a way to *delay* making *any* > choices until you are forced to. It's really just a layer of sugar on top of > Fuel (it used to use the old school Squeak equivalent serialization > mechanism - I forget the name and that might still work). You tell it what > classes to serialize. Implement two methods for each class that get and set > the data, and then it saves the whole thing as one object graph. > > Tim, > If you use SimplePersistence, please keep me posted about your experience. > I'm happy to help. > > NB I have maintained and extended the library, but it is the work of Ramon > Leon > > > > ----- > Cheers, > Sean > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

Oct. 6, 2020

Re: Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by jtuchel＠objektfabrik.de

>> - Choose Boring Technology - http://boringtechnology.club/ > This made my day. Thank you :-) Had never heard of this guy, but his site feels like home to me. Makes me a proud user of Smalltalk and DB2 after 25+ years ;-) He forgot to mention that boring technology can be quite interesting and cool, even if it is about to turn 50 years... And he's absolutely right about the fact that shipiing something useful for users makes you much more happy (and busy) than shipping something on top of an incredibly complicated and bloated technology stack... Joachim -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

Oct. 6, 2020

Re: Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by Gabriel Cotelli

If you want to use docker there's https://github.com/ba-st/docker-pharo and others that I don't remembar now that provides the basics. You have some examples in https://github.com/ba-st/docker-pharo/blob/master/docs/Examples.md . We're deploying our apps as docker containers so ask any question if you have doubts. On Tue, Oct 6, 2020 at 9:48 AM Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > Some great answers everyone - really appreciate it. > > I think that all things considered, SimplePersistence seems like a very > easy place to start, and then I can "upgrade" when my super awesome idea > (not), exceeds its bounds. > > I wonder if these answers should go somewhere in a tips section somewhere, > and get updated yearly. > > @jonathan I had forgotten about those server tools - I think the last time > I did something it predated some earlier tips the Sven had given, so will > check it out. Back then, I did have a GitLab build pipeline autodeploying > for me, so I'm hoping I can re-incarnate all of that so I can get my little > app running with no fuss... lets see. > > While I have a love/hate with Docker - I did wonder if there was something > for Pharo that just let me build my image into a container and then it > would just work with little system knowledge needed (as I keep forgetting > all the voodoo between times when I need it). Maybe there is, or maybe it > might come one day soon... > > Tim > > On Tue, 6 Oct 2020, at 9:40 AM, Jonathan van Alteren wrote: > > Hi Tim, > > I've been running Seaside applications on Hetzner cloud servers for more > than a year now, with great pleasure and success: > https://www.hetzner.com/cloud > I guess their servers are similar to Digital Ocean, although I haven't > followed the development of their products and solutions for quite a while. > Setting up a new server at Hetzner is a breeze, and you can start already > for as low as â¬2,49 per month! > > We're using Voyage on MongoDB for persistence. After learning some hard > lessons (and I'm sure there are more to come ;-)), I really enjoy the > unobtrusiveness of it. Most of the time, it doesn't require much attention > and allows me to add persistence to real OO designs quickly and easily. I > find it a welcome change from the relational database work I used to (need > to) do, back when I was still doing Java. The 'everything an object' > principle of Pharo/Smalltalk really makes it shine. > > I can't help you with a list of tradeoffs though. If you come across a set > of arguments, I'd be happy to give feedback. > > By the way, I forked Sven's pharo-server-tools project (here: > https://github.com/objectguild/pharo-server-tools) and have a routine > going that suits me well enough. Still lots of room for improvement, but > it's OK for my current needs. > > Future plans are to use the Hetzner API to provision a new server and use > something like Chef or Ansible to install/configure it automatically to be > ready to deploy a Seaside application. I'd like to integrate this into a > full service CI/CD pipeline in the future, to be able to do automated > production deployments without service interruption if possible. For this > scenario, I would really also like to switch to using GemStone for > persistence. > > Hope this helps! Let me know what you decide and I might be able to help > with some technical stuff. > > Kind regards, > > Jonathan van Alteren > > Founding Member | Object Guild B.V. > *Sustainable Software for Purpose-Driven Organizations* > > jvalteren(a)objectguild.com > On 6 Oct 2020, 00:23 +0200, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works>, wrote: > > Hi everyone - Iâm wondering what is the recommended way to save some > simple user data for a Pharo application I would like to run on the cloud > (probably initially digital ocean, but could be AWS if it came to it). > > Initially I thought I might try and run my little app in Digital ocean (I > followed someoneâs steps a few years ago, and had a simple seaside app > running quite well) - so I was thinking of starting there. > > I know there is Svenâs P3 - but Iâm not sure Iâm ready to run and maintain > a SQL database for a simple application, but could be persuaded it its > simple to setup with little maintenance. Would mongo be a suggestion - is > that easy to setup and run? (And is that Voyage?). > > Possibly I could even use image persistence, and fuel out a Dictionary > from time to time - but I think that might be a little bit too belt and > braces for me. > > Is there something that gives a little table of tradeoffs with some simple > ways to get started? > > Tim > > >

Oct. 6, 2020

Re: Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by Esteban A. Maringolo

Hi Tim, I think that the persistence you choose will depend heavily on a few things: - The complexity of the objects graphs in your domain models - This architecture of your system - How these objects/data is acceded (Atomically/In clusters) In any case, for a lightweight solution you go the Fuel path, or something using SQLite. I have a GLORP based application (small, ~40 persisted classes), SQLite is so lightweight that I run my SUnit tests creating the whole database _on disk_ from scratch on setUp and destroying it on tearDown), and only run it against the production backend (PostgreSQL) before deploying, but even this is happening less frequently since I'm confident that things will work the same on both. OTOH I'm finding that ORMs are burden, and unless you need to work with an existing schema or you really want to use an RDBMS, you might be better off avoiding them. I've been using ORMs for almost two decades, so that's still my default choice, but I feel winds of change here :-) Regards! -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 6, 2020

Re: Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by Esteban Maringolo

Hi Pierce, On Mon, Oct 5, 2020 at 10:22 PM Pierce Ng <pierce(a)samadhiweb.com> wrote: > On Mon, Oct 05, 2020 at 11:23:25PM +0100, Tim Mackinnon wrote: > Many options. Great time sinks. :-) Have fun. > > <snipped options> > - Choose Boring Technology - http://boringtechnology.club/ This made my day. Thank you :-) Esteban A. Maringolo

Oct. 6, 2020

[Offtopic] Documentary Project

by Eric Gade

Fellow Squeakers and Pharo-ers, Please forgive me if this message is inappropriate for the list. I am hoping you all will be interested in the following project. For the past year and a half I have been working on a team that is developing a documentary <https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/messagenotunderstood/message-not-under…> on the history of personal computing. Our goal is to interview the very people who laid the foundations for personal computing while they are still with us, learning about their original visions and getting their take on the present. In this sense it is both an aspiring feature length documentary project but also an endeavor in oral history and posterity. Many of the themes we want to explore will be familiar to the members of this community (as will the title). Last fall we were able to shoot our first three interviews. We used these to make a short teaser <https://vimeo.com/429045920>, with the idea it could be used to raise funds for future rounds of interviews. That said, we are currently in the middle of a Kickstarter campaign <https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/messagenotunderstood/message-not-under…> to get the second round funded. If you are interested in learning more, feel free to reach out to me directly and to visit the film's campaign site <https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/messagenotunderstood/message-not-under…> and website <https://messagenotunderstood.com/>. We need all the promotion we can get! Thanks! -- Eric

Oct. 6, 2020

Re: Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by Sean P. DeNigris

jtuchel wrote > Sigh. Forget about the idea that it will be easy to switch your > persistence later....I am not commenting on SimplePersistence here, I > don't even know what it > does or doesn't. Joachim, Thanks for this interesting perspective. I've never had the (mis?!)fortune of a project growing enough to force me to make those tough choices! For SimplePersistence I will say that I view it as a way to *delay* making *any* choices until you are forced to. It's really just a layer of sugar on top of Fuel (it used to use the old school Squeak equivalent serialization mechanism - I forget the name and that might still work). You tell it what classes to serialize. Implement two methods for each class that get and set the data, and then it saves the whole thing as one object graph. Tim, If you use SimplePersistence, please keep me posted about your experience. I'm happy to help. NB I have maintained and extended the library, but it is the work of Ramon Leon ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 6, 2020

Re: Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by jtuchel＠objektfabrik.de

Tim, Am 06.10.20 um 14:47 schrieb Tim Mackinnon: > Some great answers everyone - really appreciate it. > > I think that all things considered, SimplePersistence seems like a > very easy place to start, and then I can "upgrade" when my super > awesome idea (not), exceeds its bounds. Sigh. Forget about the idea that it will be easy to switch your persistence later. There are lots of little (and not so little) things to consider for each approach, be it an ORM, an object database or just a bunch of serialized objects. It starts with the bookkeeping for references between objects. Is it enough to remove an object from a Collection or will it somehow survive in your db and come back as a surprise after you started a new transction? Will a deleted object be deleted or just unreachable? Do I have to care about all possible paths to this object if I really want it to be deleted? Will my ORB possible re-insert it in the next transaction because I don't understand how an ORM works? Don't fool yourself into thinking there is something like a transparent persistence layer. If anybody ever says so, walk away, say thank you and forget about that person as fast as you can. I am not commenting on SimplePersistence here, I don't even know what it does or doesn't. I am talking about experiences made with both OODBs and ORMs like Glorp. I've been through tough times with an architecture that I thought to be a good idea: keep persistence in a separate layer that just spits out objects and swallows new or changed ones. Works well in a prototype. But on top of Glorp and with a few more than a hand full of objects, you end up wanting to write real database queries. So you need to get a hold of something that represents the database, say a Session object. You end up either trying to wrapper the query building in your clever layer and end up with friggin slow performance or give up on your nice layering to make your application at least bearable. Sometimes you even give up navigating between objects and replace a simple getter with a DB query to get good performance (ever waited for 600 proxies in a collection to each deserialize itself when accessing the #items of your Stock object? - you better write a sql query fetching them all at once...) You need query by example? Good luck in an Object DB. You either use DB specific queries and hand-tuned indices, or you navigate your object net and have the user wait a little. Or you design your object model around the search paths (which is hard once your model has evolved a while). In Mongo/Voyage, you need to make a decision of what objects will always be tied closely together (referenced by a root) and can be retrieved on their own. You think in object trees rather than objects. We've thrown CouchDB out of our project. Not because it is a bad NoSQL database, but because we couldn't make it work well in our overall architecture in which the primary store is a relational Database. So please be aware that once your app gets a little more than just a prototype, you need to make a decision: relational, dictinaries, tree-like I guess this is not really helpful advice. I can't really tell you what is right. I am cursing at Glorp every few days, but I also love it for many great things it does for us. And I've had a few very "interesting" lessons along the way, and am still in the process of learning about its limits. Joachim > > I wonder if these answers should go somewhere in a tips section > somewhere, and get updated yearly. > > @jonathan I had forgotten about those server tools - I think the last > time I did something it predated some earlier tips the Sven had given, > so will check it out. Back then, I did have a GitLab build pipeline > autodeploying for me, so I'm hoping I can re-incarnate all of that so > I can get my little app running with no fuss... lets see. > > While I have a love/hate with Docker - I did wonder if there was > something for Pharo that just let me build my image into a container > and then it would just work with little system knowledge needed (as I > keep forgetting all the voodoo between times when I need it). Maybe > there is, or maybe it might come one day soon... > > Tim > > On Tue, 6 Oct 2020, at 9:40 AM, Jonathan van Alteren wrote: >> Hi Tim, >> >> I've been running Seaside applications on Hetzner cloud servers for >> more than a year now, with great pleasure and success: >> https://www.hetzner.com/cloud >> I guess their servers are similar to Digital Ocean, although I >> haven't followed the development of their products and solutions for >> quite a while. Setting up a new server at Hetzner is a breeze, and >> you can start already for as low as â¬2,49 per month! >> >> We're using Voyage on MongoDB for persistence. After learning some >> hard lessons (and I'm sure there are more to come ;-)), I really >> enjoy the unobtrusiveness of it. Most of the time, it doesn't require >> much attention and allows me to add persistence to real OO designs >> quickly and easily. I find it a welcome change from the relational >> database work I used to (need to) do, back when I was still doing >> Java. The 'everything an object' principle of Pharo/Smalltalk really >> makes it shine. >> >> I can't help you with a list of tradeoffs though. If you come across >> a set of arguments, I'd be happy to give feedback. >> >> By the way, I forked Sven's pharo-server-tools project (here: >> https://github.com/objectguild/pharo-server-tools) and have a routine >> going that suits me well enough. Still lots of room for improvement, >> but it's OK for my current needs. >> >> Future plans are to use the Hetzner API to provision a new server and >> use something like Chef or Ansible to install/configure it >> automatically to be ready to deploy a Seaside application. I'd like >> to integrate this into a full service CI/CD pipeline in the future, >> to be able to do automated production deployments without service >> interruption if possible. For this scenario, I would really also like >> to switch to using GemStone for persistence. >> >> Hope this helps! Let me know what you decide and I might be able to >> help with some technical stuff. >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Jonathan van Alteren >> >> Founding Member | Object Guild B.V. >> /Sustainable Software for Purpose-Driven Organizations/ >> >> jvalteren(a)objectguild.com >> On 6 Oct 2020, 00:23 +0200, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works>, wrote: >> >>> Hi everyone - Iâm wondering what is the recommended way to save some >>> simple user data for a Pharo application I would like to run on the >>> cloud (probably initially digital ocean, but could be AWS if it came >>> to it). >>> >>> Initially I thought I might try and run my little app in Digital >>> ocean (I followed someoneâs steps a few years ago, and had a simple >>> seaside app running quite well) - so I was thinking of starting there. >>> >>> I know there is Svenâs P3 - but Iâm not sure Iâm ready to run and >>> maintain a SQL database for a simple application, but could be >>> persuaded it its simple to setup with little maintenance. Would >>> mongo be a suggestion - is that easy to setup and run? (And is that >>> Voyage?). >>> >>> Possibly I could even use image persistence, and fuel out a >>> Dictionary from time to time - but I think that might be a little >>> bit too belt and braces for me. >>> >>> Is there something that gives a little table of tradeoffs with some >>> simple ways to get started? >>> >>> Tim > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Objektfabrik Joachim Tuchel mailto:jtuchel@objektfabrik.de Fliederweg 1 http://www.objektfabrik.de D-71640 Ludwigsburg http://joachimtuchel.wordpress.com Telefon: +49 7141 56 10 86 0 Fax: +49 7141 56 10 86 1

Oct. 6, 2020

Re: Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by Tim Mackinnon

Some great answers everyone - really appreciate it. I think that all things considered, SimplePersistence seems like a very easy place to start, and then I can "upgrade" when my super awesome idea (not), exceeds its bounds. I wonder if these answers should go somewhere in a tips section somewhere, and get updated yearly. @jonathan I had forgotten about those server tools - I think the last time I did something it predated some earlier tips the Sven had given, so will check it out. Back then, I did have a GitLab build pipeline autodeploying for me, so I'm hoping I can re-incarnate all of that so I can get my little app running with no fuss... lets see. While I have a love/hate with Docker - I did wonder if there was something for Pharo that just let me build my image into a container and then it would just work with little system knowledge needed (as I keep forgetting all the voodoo between times when I need it). Maybe there is, or maybe it might come one day soon... Tim On Tue, 6 Oct 2020, at 9:40 AM, Jonathan van Alteren wrote: > Hi Tim, > > I've been running Seaside applications on Hetzner cloud servers for more than a year now, with great pleasure and success: https://www.hetzner.com/cloud > I guess their servers are similar to Digital Ocean, although I haven't followed the development of their products and solutions for quite a while. Setting up a new server at Hetzner is a breeze, and you can start already for as low as â¬2,49 per month! > > We're using Voyage on MongoDB for persistence. After learning some hard lessons (and I'm sure there are more to come ;-)), I really enjoy the unobtrusiveness of it. Most of the time, it doesn't require much attention and allows me to add persistence to real OO designs quickly and easily. I find it a welcome change from the relational database work I used to (need to) do, back when I was still doing Java. The 'everything an object' principle of Pharo/Smalltalk really makes it shine. > > I can't help you with a list of tradeoffs though. If you come across a set of arguments, I'd be happy to give feedback. > > By the way, I forked Sven's pharo-server-tools project (here: https://github.com/objectguild/pharo-server-tools) and have a routine going that suits me well enough. Still lots of room for improvement, but it's OK for my current needs. > > Future plans are to use the Hetzner API to provision a new server and use something like Chef or Ansible to install/configure it automatically to be ready to deploy a Seaside application. I'd like to integrate this into a full service CI/CD pipeline in the future, to be able to do automated production deployments without service interruption if possible. For this scenario, I would really also like to switch to using GemStone for persistence. > > Hope this helps! Let me know what you decide and I might be able to help with some technical stuff. > > Kind regards, > > Jonathan van Alteren > > Founding Member | Object Guild B.V. > *Sustainable Software for Purpose-Driven Organizations* > > jvalteren(a)objectguild.com > On 6 Oct 2020, 00:23 +0200, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works>, wrote: > >> Hi everyone - Iâm wondering what is the recommended way to save some simple user data for a Pharo application I would like to run on the cloud (probably initially digital ocean, but could be AWS if it came to it). >> >> Initially I thought I might try and run my little app in Digital ocean (I followed someoneâs steps a few years ago, and had a simple seaside app running quite well) - so I was thinking of starting there. >> >> I know there is Svenâs P3 - but Iâm not sure Iâm ready to run and maintain a SQL database for a simple application, but could be persuaded it its simple to setup with little maintenance. Would mongo be a suggestion - is that easy to setup and run? (And is that Voyage?). >> >> Possibly I could even use image persistence, and fuel out a Dictionary from time to time - but I think that might be a little bit too belt and braces for me. >> >> Is there something that gives a little table of tradeoffs with some simple ways to get started? >> >> Tim

Oct. 6, 2020

Re: Energy efficiency of Pharo/Smalltalk

by Jonathan van Alteren

Hi Mariano, Thanks for your response! I will take a look at the presentation. I was hoping for some more concrete experience with the Green Software Lab benchmark. It's not a priority at the moment, but hopefully I'll get back to this in the near future. I'll report back with any findings. Kind regards, Jonathan van Alteren Founding Member | Object Guild B.V. Sustainable Software for Purpose-Driven Organizations jvalteren(a)objectguild.com On 1 Oct 2020, 22:34 +0200, Mariano Martinez Peck <marianopeck(a)gmail.com>, wrote: > > Hi there, > > We did a related experiment with VA Smalltalk and other languages like Python, Java, etc... the context was how a JIT compiler can also help you reduce energy consumption...which could be very important for IoT. We did experiments on a Raspberry Pi, run some benchmarks and with some hardware tool we were measuring the wattage. > > You can see the whole presentation here:Â https://youtu.be/2xO0ohUNnug > > Hopefully this can get you started with Pharo experiments. > > Cheers, > > > On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 8:47 AM Jonathan van Alteren <jvalteren(a)objectguild.com> wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I am interested in energy efficiency metrics for Pharo (version >=8). Just now, I came across this research and related GitHub project: > > > > > > â¢ https://sites.google.com/view/energy-efficiency-languages > > > â¢ https://github.com/greensoftwarelab/Energy-Languages > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the paper mentions that Smalltalk was excluded from the results because the (VW) compiler was proprietary :-S However, the GitHub repository does contain Smalltalk code and results, but I haven't been able to evaluate those. > > > > > > [1] Does anyone here have more information on this topic? > > > > > > > > > The benchmarks seem to be low-level algorithms. Although that is useful, I think that a better argument for Pharo/Smalltalk efficiency is that a good OO design (e.g. created using responsibility-driven design with behaviorally complete objects) will be a better fit, can be much simpler and will thus be more efficient during development, as well as easier to maintain and evolve. > > > > > > [2] Has anyone done any research in this area that can quantify this aspect? > > > > > > Kind regards, > > > > > > Jonathan van Alteren > > > > > > Founding Member | Object Guild B.V. > > > Sustainable Software for Purpose-Driven Organizations > > > > > > jvalteren(a)objectguild.com > > > -- > Mariano Martinez Peck > Email: marianopeck(a)gmail.com > Twitter: @MartinezPeck > LinkedIn:Â www.linkedin.com/in/mariano-martinez-peck > Blog:Â https://marianopeck.wordpress.com/

Oct. 6, 2020

Re: Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by Jonathan van Alteren

Hi Tim, I've been running Seaside applications on Hetzner cloud servers for more than a year now, with great pleasure and success:Â https://www.hetzner.com/cloud I guess their servers are similar to Digital Ocean, although I haven't followed the development of their products and solutions for quite a while. Setting up a new server at Hetzner is a breeze, and you can start already for as low as â¬2,49 per month! We're using Voyage on MongoDB for persistence. After learning some hard lessons (and I'm sure there are more to come ;-)), I really enjoy the unobtrusiveness of it. Most of the time, it doesn't require much attention and allows me to add persistence to real OO designs quickly and easily. I find it a welcome change from the relational database work I used to (need to) do, back when I was still doing Java. The 'everything an object' principle of Pharo/Smalltalk really makes it shine. I can't help you with a list of tradeoffs though. If you come across a set of arguments, I'd be happy to give feedback. By the way, I forked Sven's pharo-server-tools project (here:Â https://github.com/objectguild/pharo-server-tools) and have a routine going that suits me well enough. Still lots of room for improvement, but it's OK for my current needs. Future plans are to use the Hetzner API to provision a new server and use something like Chef or Ansible to install/configure it automatically to be ready to deploy a Seaside application. I'd like to integrate this into a full service CI/CD pipeline in the future, to be able to do automated production deployments without service interruption if possible. For this scenario, I would really also like to switch to using GemStone for persistence. Hope this helps! Let me know what you decide and I might be able to help with some technical stuff. Kind regards, Jonathan van Alteren Founding Member | Object Guild B.V. Sustainable Software for Purpose-Driven Organizations jvalteren(a)objectguild.com On 6 Oct 2020, 00:23 +0200, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works>, wrote: > Hi everyone - Iâm wondering what is the recommended way to save some simple user data for a Pharo application I would like to run on the cloud (probably initially digital ocean, but could be AWS if it came to it). > > Initially I thought I might try and run my little app in Digital ocean (I followed someoneâs steps a few years ago, and had a simple seaside app running quite well) - so I was thinking of starting there. > > I know there is Svenâs P3 - but Iâm not sure Iâm ready to run and maintain a SQL database for a simple application, but could be persuaded it its simple to setup with little maintenance. Would mongo be a suggestion - is that easy to setup and run? (And is that Voyage?). > > Possibly I could even use image persistence, and fuel out a Dictionary from time to time - but I think that might be a little bit too belt and braces for me. > > Is there something that gives a little table of tradeoffs with some simple ways to get started? > > Tim

Oct. 6, 2020

Re: Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by Pierce Ng

On Mon, Oct 05, 2020 at 11:23:25PM +0100, Tim Mackinnon wrote: > I know there is Svenâs P3 - but Iâm not sure Iâm ready to run and > maintain a SQL database for a simple application, but could be > persuaded it its simple to setup with little maintenance. Would mongo > be a suggestion - is that easy to setup and run? (And is that > Voyage?). > > Possibly I could even use image persistence, and fuel out a Dictionary > from time to time - but I think that might be a little bit too belt > and braces for me. Hi Tim, If you are familiar with Docker then starting a database server is easy that way. Assuming you pick a 'boring' product then what matters for your app is the quality of the database interface code on Pharo for that product. For PostgreSQL and MySQL no problem. I've not used Mongo itself nor Voyage so no comment. If you neither want to run a separate database server nor roll your own writing out to Fuel etc, then you're looking at 'embedded' databases. For pure Smalltalk, Omnibase or SimplePersistence. If you are ok with something that uses FFI, then SQLite, Unqlite and probably others. Personally I'd choose SQLite because it is boring - ubiquitous, high quality, and importantly unlike the pure Smalltalk and many embedded key-value databases there is a plethora of external tools that operate on SQLite databases which will help your debugging. For SQL databases you can also use an ORM like Glorp or ReStore. Finally there are also NoSQL-as-a-service like Google Firebase. Many options. Great time sinks. :-) Have fun. - PostgreSQL - https://github.com/svenvc/p3 - MySQL - https://github.com/pharo-rdbms/Pharo-MySQL - Omnibase - https://github.com/sebastianconcept/OmniBase - SimplePersistence - https://github.com/seandenigris/Simple-Persistence - SQLite - https://github.com/pharo-rdbms/Pharo-SQLite3 - Unqlite - https://github.com/mumez/PunQLite - Glorp - https://github.com/pharo-rdbms/glorp - ReStore - https://github.com/rko281/ReStoreForPharo - Firebase - https://github.com/psvensson/firebase-st - Choose Boring Technology - http://boringtechnology.club/ Pierce

Oct. 6, 2020

Re: Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by Gabriel Cotelli

Maybe you can use SQlite3 in a persistent volume? On Mon, Oct 5, 2020, 19:23 Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > Hi everyone - Iâm wondering what is the recommended way to save some > simple user data for a Pharo application I would like to run on the cloud > (probably initially digital ocean, but could be AWS if it came to it). > > Initially I thought I might try and run my little app in Digital ocean (I > followed someoneâs steps a few years ago, and had a simple seaside app > running quite well) - so I was thinking of starting there. > > I know there is Svenâs P3 - but Iâm not sure Iâm ready to run and maintain > a SQL database for a simple application, but could be persuaded it its > simple to setup with little maintenance. Would mongo be a suggestion - is > that easy to setup and run? (And is that Voyage?). > > Possibly I could even use image persistence, and fuel out a Dictionary > from time to time - but I think that might be a little bit too belt and > braces for me. > > Is there something that gives a little table of tradeoffs with some simple > ways to get started? > > Tim

Oct. 6, 2020

Easiest light weight cloud/web persistence for Pharo?

by Tim Mackinnon

Hi everyone - Iâm wondering what is the recommended way to save some simple user data for a Pharo application I would like to run on the cloud (probably initially digital ocean, but could be AWS if it came to it). Initially I thought I might try and run my little app in Digital ocean (I followed someoneâs steps a few years ago, and had a simple seaside app running quite well) - so I was thinking of starting there. I know there is Svenâs P3 - but Iâm not sure Iâm ready to run and maintain a SQL database for a simple application, but could be persuaded it its simple to setup with little maintenance. Would mongo be a suggestion - is that easy to setup and run? (And is that Voyage?). Possibly I could even use image persistence, and fuel out a Dictionary from time to time - but I think that might be a little bit too belt and braces for me. Is there something that gives a little table of tradeoffs with some simple ways to get started? Tim

Oct. 5, 2020

Re: Agile Artificial Intelligence

by Alexandre Bergel

Very well spotted! Thank you very much! Added here: https://github.com/Apress/agile-ai-in-pharo/issues/6 I will fix in the second edition. Even if all the code contained in the book is automatically tested, in this case, this was not enough. Thank you! Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > On 21-08-2020, at 02:07, bentai <bentaisan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I think I found another bug in the book. I am using the Safari version, and the code in the text doesn't match the screenshot. For example, the text says: > somePoints := OrderedCollection new. > 500 timesRepeat: [ somePoints add: {(50 atRandom - 25) . (50 atRandom - 25)}]. > f := [ :x | (-2 * x) - 3 ]. > "We use the Roassal Grapher engine to plot our points" > g := RTGrapher new. > d := RTData new. > d dotShape color: [ :p | (p second > (f value: p first)) ifTrue: [ Color red trans ] ifFalse: [ Color blue trans ] ]. > d points: somePoints. > d x: #first. > d y: #second. > g add: d. > g > "" The rendered code in the Safari version gets an error, whereas the screenshot version works: > f := [ :x | (-2 * x) - 3 ]. > > somePoints := OrderedCollection new. > 500 timesRepeat: [ somePoints add: (( 50 atRandom - 25 ) @ ( 50 atRandom - 25 )) ]. > > g := RTGrapher new. > d := RTData new. > d dotShape color: [ :p | (p y > (f value: p x)) ifTrue: [ Color red trans ] ifFalse: [ Color blue trans ] ]. > d points: somePoints. > d x: #x. > d y: #y. > g add: d. > g > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This may be part of the cause of my bug report on Git, e.g. there is a mismatch between the eBook version, the printed version and the Safari/OReilly version. > > It is Pharo 7.0.4, but I don't know if that matters in this case. > > I apologize for not following the procedure of cloning the github repository and creating bug request from there with pull requests, but I am still working out the configuration of Iceberg. > > Cheers, > Tom Sturgeon > > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html> at Nabble.com.

Oct. 5, 2020

Re: Agile Artificial Intelligence first trained Perceptron

by Alexandre Bergel

Hello, Sorry to reply late. I just saw this email. Each training modify the weights and bias of the perceptron by a small quantity. It is just that, in this very particular case, from 31 or 32 is the drop that makes all things change... Cheers, Alexandre -- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > On 21-08-2020, at 01:31, bentai <bentaisan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > I noticed that if I trained the OR gate with 31 iterations, the first test > would fail. > > If I train with 32 iterations, then the test for #(0 0) would pass. > > What is the explanation for this "tipping point"? > > The other tests pass, even if timeRepeat := 1. > > I just decided to experiment a bit. > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

Oct. 5, 2020

Re: [Pharo-dev] beta testers for the new version of the Pharo mooc

by Christopher Fuhrman

Hi Stef, At the very least I can help, but I will try to find some students. I just upgraded to WSL2 on Windows 10 and would like to see how Pharo performs. C. Fuhrman On Wed, Sep 30, 2020, 10:30 StÃ©phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr> wrote: > Hello guys > > We are looking for beta tester for the new version of the Pharo mooc. > The beta test period is planned from 12 to 23 of october > Let me know if you can help. > > Tx > > > -------------------------------------------- > StÃ©phane Ducasse > http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr / http://www.pharo.org > 03 59 35 87 52 > Assistant: Aurore Dalle > FAX 03 59 57 78 50 > TEL 03 59 35 86 16 > S. Ducasse - Inria > 40, avenue Halley, > Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, BÃ¢t.A, Park Plaza > Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 > France > >

Oct. 1, 2020

Re: Energy efficiency of Pharo/Smalltalk

by Mariano Martinez Peck

Hi there, We did a related experiment with VA Smalltalk and other languages like Python, Java, etc... the context was how a JIT compiler can also help you reduce energy consumption...which could be very important for IoT. We did experiments on a Raspberry Pi, run some benchmarks and with some hardware tool we were measuring the wattage. You can see the whole presentation here: https://youtu.be/2xO0ohUNnug Hopefully this can get you started with Pharo experiments. Cheers, On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 8:47 AM Jonathan van Alteren < jvalteren(a)objectguild.com> wrote: > Hi all, > > I am interested in energy efficiency metrics for Pharo (version >=8). Just > now, I came across this research and related GitHub project: > > - https://sites.google.com/view/energy-efficiency-languages > - https://github.com/greensoftwarelab/Energy-Languages > > > Unfortunately, the paper mentions that Smalltalk was excluded from the > results because the (VW) compiler was proprietary :-S However, the GitHub > repository does contain Smalltalk code and results, but I haven't been able > to evaluate those. > > [1] Does anyone here have more information on this topic? > > > The benchmarks seem to be low-level algorithms. Although that is useful, I > think that a better argument for Pharo/Smalltalk efficiency is that a good > OO design (e.g. created using responsibility-driven design with > behaviorally complete objects) will be a better fit, can be much simpler > and will thus be more efficient during development, as well as easier to > maintain and evolve. > > [2] Has anyone done any research in this area that can quantify this > aspect? > > Kind regards, > > Jonathan van Alteren > > Founding Member | Object Guild B.V. > *Sustainable Software for Purpose-Driven Organizations* > > jvalteren(a)objectguild.com > -- Mariano Martinez Peck Email: marianopeck(a)gmail.com Twitter: @MartinezPeck LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/mariano-martinez-peck <https://www.linkedin.com/in/mariano-mart%C3%ADnez-peck/> Blog: https://marianopeck.wordpress.com/

Oct. 1, 2020

Re: [Pharo-dev] beta testers for the new version of the Pharo mooc

by Juan Pablo Sandoval Alcocer

Hi Stef, Daniel (in copy), one of my students, is willing to help. He started with Pharo one year ago, he also read the previous version of Pharo mooc. Regards, Juan P. El miÃ©., 30 sept. 2020 a las 10:30, StÃ©phane Ducasse (< stephane.ducasse(a)inria.fr>) escribiÃ³: > Hello guys > > We are looking for beta tester for the new version of the Pharo mooc. > The beta test period is planned from 12 to 23 of october > Let me know if you can help. > > Tx > > > -------------------------------------------- > StÃ©phane Ducasse > http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr / http://www.pharo.org > 03 59 35 87 52 > Assistant: Aurore Dalle > FAX 03 59 57 78 50 > TEL 03 59 35 86 16 > S. Ducasse - Inria > 40, avenue Halley, > Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, BÃ¢t.A, Park Plaza > Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 > France > >

Oct. 1, 2020

Re: exercism bowling challenge

by Russ Whaley

Yes, my thoughts - since I'm not as technical as the rest of you: BowlingGame class "runs the game a calls each frame to 'process'" - frames (1-10 aFrame objects) - score (aScore object) - currentFrame Frame class "frame handles #throws, pins remaining, and lets Game know when to advance to next frame - frameEnd" - frame# - throws (1-3 aThrow objects - aFrame controls 10th frame 3rd throw) - score (numeric) Throw class - frame (the frame I belong to) - throw# (incremental numeric 1-3) - pinsKnockedDown (0-10) Score class - frames (same as BowlingGame class) - methods to calculate score, once a frame score has been determined, it is stored on the frame and the score calc simply picks that up and moves forward on each successive score calc (after each throw - called from inside of aFrame) This will be a fun little diversion. I'll create a simple UI and engine that will randomly return a number of pinsKnockedDown when pressing the spacebar to roll the next ball. On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 3:11 PM DavidBajger <bajger(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Thanks for your reply! Anyway.. wow, 3 lines of code, I'd like to see > that! I > didn't really get into FLP (except some small howeworks on University and > that's alraeady forgotten), so I don't know, what is the advantage here. I > thought that Pharo (Smalltalk) can be considered as functional language > too, > because of blocks. If there wouldn't be any exception handling, would Pharo > code be so compact as well (e.g. by using #inject:into:)? > > > > > > ----- > David Bajger > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > -- Russ Whaley whaley.russ(a)gmail.com

Oct. 1, 2020

Energy efficiency of Pharo/Smalltalk

by Jonathan van Alteren

Hi all, I am interested in energy efficiency metrics for Pharo (version >=8). Just now, I came across this research and related GitHub project: â¢ https://sites.google.com/view/energy-efficiency-languages â¢ https://github.com/greensoftwarelab/Energy-Languages Unfortunately, the paper mentions that Smalltalk was excluded from the results because the (VW) compiler was proprietary :-S However, the GitHub repository does contain Smalltalk code and results, but I haven't been able to evaluate those. [1] Does anyone here have more information on this topic? The benchmarks seem to be low-level algorithms. Although that is useful, I think that a better argument for Pharo/Smalltalk efficiency is that a good OO design (e.g. created using responsibility-driven design with behaviorally complete objects) will be a better fit, can be much simpler and will thus be more efficient during development, as well as easier to maintain and evolve. [2] Has anyone done any research in this area that can quantify this aspect? Kind regards, Jonathan van Alteren Founding Member | Object Guild B.V. Sustainable Software for Purpose-Driven Organizations jvalteren(a)objectguild.com

Oct. 1, 2020

Re: Space Based Repetition

by Sean P. DeNigris

Tim Mackinnon wrote > I donât quite know how you choose or specify the probabilitiesâ¦ Iâm > enquiring. Please report back on your findings! Tim Mackinnon wrote > SM-2 always intrigued meâ¦ but was trying to avoid the inevitable rabbit > hole Yes, same. Although I'm sure I will eventually get pulled in lol. The beautiful thing about flashcards in a dynamic system like Smalltalk is that one could define an API so that *any* domain object could be turned into a flashcard, like the birthdays of your contacts (silly example but you get the idea). I did extensive reading on the SM-2 creator's website and played with Anki a bit. It's been on my endless TODOs to do something simple like Anki in Pharo... ----- Cheers, Sean -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Oct. 1, 2020