September 2019 - Pharo-users

R: Code of Conduct

by Lorenzo Schiavina

+ 100 Lorenzo Da: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di Smalltalk Inviato: mercoledÃ¬ 18 settembre 2019 17:04 A: pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct I do not agree to have a code of conduct. In my 20 years in the various Smalltalk communities i never saw any harassment or whatever (quite the opposite). Self organization is much better, if someone "misbehave" it will be ignored by those who think that action was "misbehavior". El 18/09/2019 a las 8:51, TomaÅ¾ Turk escribiÃ³: > One doesn't need a Code of Conduct. It is ridiculous. > > Civilized and respectful non discriminating behaviour should > be implicit in everyone of us! > > If one insists in having a code of conduct than this should cover it all: > "Be Nice, Social And Respectful To Each Living Being." +100 Best wishes, Tomaz

Sept. 18, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by Smalltalk

I do not agree to have a code of conduct. In my 20 years in the various Smalltalk communities i never saw any harassment or whatever (quite the opposite). Self organization is much better, if someone "misbehave" it will be ignored by those who think that action was "misbehavior". El 18/09/2019 a las 8:51, TomaÅ¾ Turk escribiÃ³: > > One doesn't need a Code of Conduct. It is ridiculous. > > > > Civilized and respectful non discriminating behaviour should > > be implicit in everyone of us! > > > > If one insists in having a code of conduct than this should cover it > all: > > "Be Nice, Social And Respectful To Each Living Being." > > +100 > > Best wishes, > Tomaz

Sept. 18, 2019

[ANN] Pharo TechTalk Sept 26

by Marcus Denker

A regular chat about Pharo. Happens on Discord. The Tech talks are open to both members and non-members! Topic: Spec2 and GTK NOTE: one week later then originally planned! https://association.pharo.org/event-3419544

Sept. 18, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by TomaÅ¾ Turk

> One doesn't need a Code of Conduct. It is ridiculous. > > Civilized and respectful non discriminating behaviour should > be implicit in everyone of us! > > If one insists in having a code of conduct than this should cover it all: > "Be Nice, Social And Respectful To Each Living Being." +100 Best wishes, Tomaz

Sept. 18, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by TedVanGaalen

Couldn't resist entering this doubtful CoC thread, just to enter a few lines and then I am gone again. One doesn't need a Code of Conduct. It is ridiculous. Civilized and respectful non discriminating behaviour should be implicit in everyone of us! If one insists in having a code of conduct than this should cover it all: "Be Nice, Social And Respectful To Each Living Being." (at times this is not easy) If this is too complicated for one to understand and not enough to stay on the right track, then know that there already are "CoC"s on an encompassing higher scope: by constitutional law: In most civilized democratic countries and also the European Union the primary laws (constitutions) offer protection of citizens against any form of discrimination and primitive harassment. If one would have the opinion that these constitutional laws are not good enough and/or that these laws are not completely respected then I'd suggest to take part in democratic processes to improve this situation. If one cannot obey these laws, then, for example: -Move to a country e.g. with an undemocratic, human rights ignoring government, mostly dictatorial ones, which might suit one's anti social discriminating behaviour better. (probably the most ultimate environment to get acquainted with one's own shortcomings) -try to be more emphatic, this world is overpopulated, with high stress levels, an incredibly fast changing environment, where empathy and social behaviour are more important than ever. Ergo: In short if one harasses, discriminates people, one is violating the law. There is no place for this on forums, There is no place for this anywhere in a civilized world. As stated in the European constitution: "The Union's values. The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail" This is written on page 17 art: I-2 in https://europa.eu/european-union/sites/europaeu/files/docs/body/treaty_esta… After this I will only enter this forum with IT / Smalltalk related themes. That is the purpose of this forum. Kind Regards. TedvG -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

Sept. 18, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by PBKResearch

Serge Your post does not really answer Jamesâs questions about the status of the Code. It seems you personally posted the Code on Github, without prior discussion with the Board. Is this a proposal by you, for discussion by the Board, or does posting it there mean it is adopted as the effective Code for the Pharo community? The github post just quotes the code, without explanation. As to the content of the code, I still believe that, if the board can undertake punitive actions like banning, there must be some concept of âdue processâ, with the right to defend oneself. The referenced FAQ suggests that, if one is accused of a breach, the only response is to admit guilt and work with the accusers to reform. I am also worried by the suggestions that complaints can be anonymous, and that the anonymity of the complainant must be protected. Peter Kenny From: Pharo-users <pharo-users-bounces(a)lists.pharo.org> On Behalf Of Serge Stinckwich Sent: 18 September 2019 08:33 To: Any question about pharo is welcome <pharo-users(a)lists.pharo.org> Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 2:11 AM James Foster <Smalltalk(a)jgfoster.net <mailto:Smalltalk@jgfoster.net> > wrote: One side-effect of the âCovenantâ discussion is that it is necessarily political, which is something that many (rightly, in my view) are trying to avoid. While I agree with most of the views expressed so far, I cringe because I anticipate that someone who disagrees will feel the compulsion to tell us that we are wrong, and things will go bad from there. I havenât reviewed the full email chain, but Iâve spent a few minutes searching pharo.org <http://pharo.org> for âcode of conductâ and âcovenantâ and come up empty. Before we continue the discussion of how âwoke" (politically correct) we want to be, could someone confirm that this "dastardly deed" (imposing a progressive âCovenantâ without asking for agreement) was actually done? Maybe a troll has just dropped a fire cracker on us and is sitting back, enjoying watching us run around screaming! If there was, indeed, adoption of a âCovenantâ it should have been done by the board whose role âis to make decisions if in the future the community can't decide on a course of actionâ (https://pharo.org/about) I suggest that we suspend discussion of the politics of speech codes until we confirm that there is one for Pharo. At that point we politely (but pointedly) ask the board (publicly and privately) to explain what prompted the decision to adopt a Code (is it really necessary?) and how this one was selected. Note that part of the reason for limiting discussion is to avoid attracting attention of outsiders who will want to shape the discussion. Letâs stop kicking up dust for the moment! Dear James, I'm the one who submit the PR for the CoC. Similar text are adopted by a lot of open-source communities or conferences in order to enhance diversity. I read again this morning the document here: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md and for me this quite neutral and I see nothing political here. I agree with you that this kind of document should have been discussed by the Pharo board and you can propose it for the next meeting. I'm a bit suprised by some overeactions here on the mailing-list. Apparently the Pharo community will be soon be doomed or under attack of nasty leftist activists ... But I will not discuss endlessly about that. If we need a Code of Conduct, I respectfully suggest we start with ACM (https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics) which has what should be adequate anti-discrimination provisions (see 1.4 for a list of âunderrepresentedâ groups) to satisfy the progressives among us. Thank you James to move the discussion on github. Cheers, -- Serge Stinckwic h Int. Research Unit on Modelling/Simulation of Complex Systems (UMMISCO) Sorbonne University (SU) French National Research Institute for Sustainable Development (IRD) U niversity of YaoundÃ© I, Cameroon "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich

Sept. 18, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by Serge Stinckwich

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 2:11 AM James Foster <Smalltalk(a)jgfoster.net> wrote: > One side-effect of the âCovenantâ discussion is that it is necessarily > political, which is something that many (rightly, in my view) are trying to > avoid. While I agree with most of the views expressed so far, I cringe > because I anticipate that someone who disagrees will feel the compulsion to > tell us that we are wrong, and things will go bad from there. > > I havenât reviewed the full email chain, but Iâve spent a few minutes > searching pharo.org for âcode of conductâ and âcovenantâ and come up > empty. Before we continue the discussion of how âwoke" (politically > correct) we want to be, could someone confirm that this "dastardly deed" > (imposing a progressive âCovenantâ without asking for agreement) was > actually done? Maybe a troll has just dropped a fire cracker on us and is > sitting back, enjoying watching us run around screaming! > > If there was, indeed, adoption of a âCovenantâ it should have been done by > the board whose role âis to make decisions if in the future the community > can't decide on a course of actionâ (https://pharo.org/about) > > I suggest that we *suspend discussion* of the politics of speech codes > until we confirm that there is one for Pharo. At that point we politely > (but pointedly) ask the board (publicly and privately) to explain what > prompted the decision to adopt a Code (is it really necessary?) and how > this one was selected. Note that part of the reason for limiting discussion > is to avoid attracting attention of outsiders who will want to shape the > discussion. Letâs stop kicking up dust for the moment! > > Dear James, I'm the one who submit the PR for the CoC. Similar text are adopted by a lot of open-source communities or conferences in order to enhance diversity. I read again this morning the document here: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md and for me this quite neutral and I see nothing political here. I agree with you that this kind of document should have been discussed by the Pharo board and you can propose it for the next meeting. I'm a bit suprised by some overeactions here on the mailing-list. Apparently the Pharo community will be soon be doomed or under attack of nasty leftist activists ... But I will not discuss endlessly about that. > If we need a Code of Conduct, I respectfully suggest we start with ACM ( > https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics) which has what should be adequate > anti-discrimination provisions (see 1.4 for a list of âunderrepresentedâ > groups) to satisfy the progressives among us. > > Thank you James to move the discussion on github. Cheers, -- Serge Stinckwic h Int. Research Unit on Modelling/Simulation of Complex Systems (UMMISCO) Sorbonne University (SU) French National Research Institute for Sustainable Development (IRD) U niversity of YaoundÃ© I, Cameroon "Programs must be written for people to read, and only incidentally for machines to execute." https://twitter.com/SergeStinckwich

Sept. 18, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

I'm a member of several communities which are welcoming and diverse, without a explicit Code of Conduct. That's doesn't mean that such communities doesn't see the political nature of technology, or that the way people participate on such communities is not deeply informed on who the participants are. I don't think that people just exchange words, but I don't think that we need to go, at least at this moment, to Speech Acts Theory or other approach on how words are mostly not "just words". But this is informed by my particular context and education. In some countries free speech is not an absolute right and for example is subordinated to non-defamatory or non-violent speech. So while I agree, as Esteban, Ramon and others have pointed, on the view that this is a community where discussions are usually civilized and we can agree to disagree, like in this very subject, I don't think that "technology is neutral" or "politics are bad" or identity/context doesn't inform participation, but usually these are blind spots for people under privileged circumstances. That doesn't mean that I agreed with the Covenants CoC neither. And even when this position seems like a non-position, what I'm trying to showcase is that there are a lot of grays in the binary reading of we can have safe spaces for people or we can have discussions on ideas, but not both. I believe that there is much to think about yet, at least on a personal level and hopefully at some point on a community one. I will take a pause from this thread to think it more deeply. Cheers, Offray On 17/09/19 6:32 p.Â m., Richard O'Keefe wrote: > You just wrote what I didn't quite dare to say. > Thank you. > > On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 at 11:29, Ramon Leon <ramon.leon(a)allresnet.com > <mailto:ramon.leon@allresnet.com>> wrote: > > On 2019-09-17 2:34 p.m., Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas wrote: > > as I say the important issue is to provide safe > > spaces via explicit or implicit rules > > I understand, I just disagree. These are of course my personal > opinions, others may disagree.Â "Safe spaces" are bad things, not > good things; the world is not a safe space, it is not the > responsibility of others to provide one a feeling of safety in a > an online community where people merely exchange words. Words are > not dangerous, you are already safe. If you don't like what > someone is saying, ignore them or mute them. Safe space a > euphemism for censorship and exclusion, people who want safe > spaces want to exclude other people who might express ideas or > opinions that they disagree with. Safe spaces are anti-free speech > zones. > > They are an attempt to prepare the world for the child rather than > the child for the world; they are inherently narcissistic. > Intellectual discourse is supposed to be challenging to your > beliefs, you're supposed to confront ideas you might not like or > agree with and people you might have a hard time getting along > with. If you submit code to a technical forum you should expect > criticism and debate.Â Technical discussions should resolve around > the ideas being presented, not around the identities of those > involved, and ideas should always be open to critique and debate. > I don't care what one's sex or gender are or what color one's skin > is or political beliefs are; those things have no place in a > technical forum. I watch these groups to see discussions about > technology like Pharo, Squeak, or Seaside. > > It's a rare thing to see anyone here being truly rude, there's no > need for a code of conduct, it's a non solution to a non problem > intended only to divide and punish for political ends.Â Maybe I'm > just getting old, but the younger generation is far too coddled > and expectant of the world to adjust to their feelings rather than > learning how to deal with the world and others who have different > ideas than they do. Safe spaces are bad ideas. > > -- > RamÃ³n LeÃ³n > >

Sept. 18, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by James Foster

> On Sep 17, 2019, at 5:19 PM, Ramon Leon <ramon.leon(a)allresnet.com> wrote: > > https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md Thanks. Iâve submitted a PR to use ACM. Letâs move the discussion to https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4637.

Sept. 18, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] Code of Conduct

by Ramon Leon

On 2019-09-17 5:11 p.m., James Foster wrote: > If there was, indeed, adoption of a âCovenantâ it should have been done by the board whose role âis to make decisions if in the future the community can't decide on a course of actionâ (https://pharo.org/about) > > I suggest that we suspend discussion of the politics of speech codes until we confirm that there is one for Pharo. https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/blob/Pharo8.0/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md -- RamÃ³n LeÃ³n

Sept. 18, 2019