January 2019 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

pharo announcement in heise.de

by Tudor Girba

Hi. I just stumbled across this: https://www.heise.de/developer/meldung/Programmiersprache-Pharo-7-0-tauscht… Very cool :) Doru -- www.feenk.com "You can inspect and adapt only what is explicit."

Jan. 24, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code editors to code in Pharo

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 24 Jan 2019, at 17:04, K K Subbu <kksubbu.ml(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > On 24/01/19 7:23 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >> Everybody is of course totally free to do whatever they want, but >> really, why the hell would you want to do that ? > Because text has many uses other than just feeding into a compiler for translation to machine code? People who come from Unix/Linux world are used to using a rich collection of tools that deal with text in various ways. I am myself a server/linux guy, an emacs user, I know what is all possible and what the unix philosophy is. I also know how to integrate Pharo into that world, and this is super important. >> You lose so much by doing that, I do not even know where to start. > > Live coding (i.e. coding in the presence of instances) is undoubtedly more powerful than edit-compile-run cycle. Text is used to direct IDE to edit live objects. But text has many more uses than just issuing commands. If beginners start using vim just to edit code due to established habits, they will soon realize the ease of live coding and remain in IDE. This is a self-correcting error. Well, I don't think so. The users that you are going to attract in this way (the ones that don't want to leave their own IDE/editor), will look at textual Pharo and find it very strange and ill suited to textual editing (and they are absolutely right), they will not discover the power, will not learn (from this experience alone) what object design/programming/power is, and will ask for more (e.g. give me C style compiler errors, better/easier structure of the file, fixed the !! escape issue, etc, ...). >> Editing a .st file has always been possible, it is masochism.Vim is much more than just a typewriter. It can leverage a whole set of > text-based tools. One could use it to auto generate methods, clean them up and then file into Pharo. > > Regards .. Subbu >

Jan. 24, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code editors to code in Pharo

by K K Subbu

On 24/01/19 7:23 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > Everybody is of course totally free to do whatever they want, but > really, why the hell would you want to do that ? Because text has many uses other than just feeding into a compiler for translation to machine code? People who come from Unix/Linux world are used to using a rich collection of tools that deal with text in various ways. > You lose so much by doing that, I do not even know where to start. Live coding (i.e. coding in the presence of instances) is undoubtedly more powerful than edit-compile-run cycle. Text is used to direct IDE to edit live objects. But text has many more uses than just issuing commands. If beginners start using vim just to edit code due to established habits, they will soon realize the ease of live coding and remain in IDE. This is a self-correcting error. > Editing a .st file has always been possible, it is masochism.Vim is much more than just a typewriter. It can leverage a whole set of text-based tools. One could use it to auto generate methods, clean them up and then file into Pharo. Regards .. Subbu

Jan. 24, 2019

How to embed VSE application into Pharo

by Lorenzo Schiavina

Hi, I am a very old Smalltalk user; I have developed TONS of application with Digitalk's VSE; some of them are used by more hundreds clients. Can you tell me if there is any possibility to embed my VSE applications into Pharo without rewriting them? My goal would be to use Pharo for my new applications without loose the old ones and to interact with old ones in Pharo. Many thanks for your answer Lorenzo

Jan. 24, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code editors to code in Pharo

by K K Subbu

On 24/01/19 4:40 PM, Dimitris Chloupis wrote: > Actually not only you can do it, its also very easy. So the following > video tutorial explains in the first 3 minutes how to do this and then > spends another 10 min talking about how this could be automated to be > completely automatic and instantaneous. > > https://youtu.be/3YfRhDafIxs Nice clip - short and sweet. You may want to point people to about chunk file format in the description to alert people who may break chunk syntax by accident and get confused when fileIn breaks (been there, done that :-(). Also a caveat not to edit *.changes or *.sources though they look very similar to *.st files. BTW, if the command is all in one line, you don't need to select it before doIt. It is implied. Even if it is spread over a couple of lines, just press SHIFT-HOME after finishing typing the text and use the arrow keys to select multiple lines and then doIt. Very nifty! Regards .. Subbu

Jan. 24, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code editors to code in Pharo

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 24 Jan 2019, at 15:37, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > "Thank you! I'm one of those" > "wow.. thank you :D" > > "Everybody is of course totally free to do whatever they want, but really, why the hell would you want to do that ?" > > I can think a few million reasons. Vim and Emacs for example with tons of internal and external tools , handling code, documentation, unit testing, integration with other languages. The list is very long. > > I think for me that I am not a shortcuts person which is usually the reason why people want to do this, I really like the idea of Workspaces/Projects in Visual Code. They are great for managing big project especially if you mix several languages together. Another good reason is dealing with markdown which is a popular way of documentation and quite convenient. Git support is extremely well done Visual Code for example tells me each line what commit is related to and direct acccess with good visualisation of remote git repositories. > > "A big part of what makes Pharo (or any Smalltalk) special is the IDE written in itself." > > There is no doubt that IDE wise Pharo is best to handle refactoring pharo code, debug etc. But my approach does not lock you down on a single editor. As I demonstrated in the video you can move easily between Pharo and VS code and thats the whole point, you can take advantage of the best of both worlds. > > "There is for example https://github.com/dmatveev/shampoo-emacs which already makes a bit more sense (but even then)." > > I am fully aware of emacs shampoo I used to recommend it but not any more for the simple fact it has not been updated for 6 years. Shampoo also is not just about code editing its also a port of the smalltalk IDE to emacs. > > I am talking strictly code editing here and various other tools that can be found in those editors that simply do not exist in Pharo, I am not talking about IDEs. Why not have your cake and eat it too if you can ? > > The whole point of my video was how to use external editor with Pharo and not to replace Pharo completely which I think what you talking about here. Coding editing in Pharo has still a long way to go, we do not even have an easy way to setup keyboard shortcuts which is essential not for me but at least for others. > > We all want to live completely inside the image but in reality those features take time to implement and is a lot of work for our small community. > > By the way neither Emacs, Vim or Visual Studio Code are IDEs.Just powerful editors with some IDE features and usually most of the features come in form of extensions that you have install and configure properly. > > In any case I will repeat once again the point of the video is how to taker advantage of nice features in code editors without having to abandon Pharo. If this convince people to stick with Pharo I think its a win win situation. Wouldnt you agree ? These are all valid points (and I started by saying that everybody is free to do whatever they want), but wouldn't you agree that the best experience is - Java in IntelliJ's IDEA - Objective-C / Swift in XCode - The Mathematica language inside Mathematica - Common Lisp in Emacs or LispWorks - etc .. Even though in each case you can edit code in any editor, you will miss out of so much by doing so. Many languages are 'strange' and have their own style of working - as a newcomer you have to learn that and immerse yourself into that new world, in order to really appreciate/get it. 'Textual Smalltalks' have been done before (GNU Smalltalk for example), [as have many forms of Typed Smalltalk], IMHO they do not give you the real deal. The allure of Pharo/Smalltalk should be 'learn something new that will blow your mind and change forever how you think'. Giving people a subpar entry into our world will probably not convince them that there is something cool to be seen there. Sven

Jan. 24, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code editors to code in Pharo

by Esteban Lorenzano

Honestly, Pharo without the environment (and the âlive objectsâ approach) is just another dynamic language without much interest. Thinking the IDE is just autocompletion is a poor idea of what a live environment can do for you. Esteban > On 24 Jan 2019, at 15:37, Dimitris Chloupis <kilon.alios(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > "Thank you! I'm one of those" > "wow.. thank you :D" > > "Everybody is of course totally free to do whatever they want, but really, why the hell would you want to do that ?" > > I can think a few million reasons. Vim and Emacs for example with tons of internal and external tools , handling code, documentation, unit testing, integration with other languages. The list is very long. > > I think for me that I am not a shortcuts person which is usually the reason why people want to do this, I really like the idea of Workspaces/Projects in Visual Code. They are great for managing big project especially if you mix several languages together. Another good reason is dealing with markdown which is a popular way of documentation and quite convenient. Git support is extremely well done Visual Code for example tells me each line what commit is related to and direct acccess with good visualisation of remote git repositories. > > "A big part of what makes Pharo (or any Smalltalk) special is the IDE written in itself." > > There is no doubt that IDE wise Pharo is best to handle refactoring pharo code, debug etc. But my approach does not lock you down on a single editor. As I demonstrated in the video you can move easily between Pharo and VS code and thats the whole point, you can take advantage of the best of both worlds. > > "There is for example https://github.com/dmatveev/shampoo-emacs <https://github.com/dmatveev/shampoo-emacs> which already makes a bit more sense (but even then)." > > I am fully aware of emacs shampoo I used to recommend it but not any more for the simple fact it has not been updated for 6 years. Shampoo also is not just about code editing its also a port of the smalltalk IDE to emacs. > > I am talking strictly code editing here and various other tools that can be found in those editors that simply do not exist in Pharo, I am not talking about IDEs. Why not have your cake and eat it too if you can ? > > The whole point of my video was how to use external editor with Pharo and not to replace Pharo completely which I think what you talking about here. Coding editing in Pharo has still a long way to go, we do not even have an easy way to setup keyboard shortcuts which is essential not for me but at least for others. > > We all want to live completely inside the image but in reality those features take time to implement and is a lot of work for our small community. > > By the way neither Emacs, Vim or Visual Studio Code are IDEs.Just powerful editors with some IDE features and usually most of the features come in form of extensions that you have install and configure properly. > > In any case I will repeat once again the point of the video is how to taker advantage of nice features in code editors without having to abandon Pharo. If this convince people to stick with Pharo I think its a win win situation. Wouldnt you agree ?

Jan. 24, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code editors to code in Pharo

by Dimitris Chloupis

"Thank you! I'm one of those" "wow.. thank you :D" "Everybody is of course totally free to do whatever they want, but really, why the hell would you want to do that ?" I can think a few million reasons. Vim and Emacs for example with tons of internal and external tools , handling code, documentation, unit testing, integration with other languages. The list is very long. I think for me that I am not a shortcuts person which is usually the reason why people want to do this, I really like the idea of Workspaces/Projects in Visual Code. They are great for managing big project especially if you mix several languages together. Another good reason is dealing with markdown which is a popular way of documentation and quite convenient. Git support is extremely well done Visual Code for example tells me each line what commit is related to and direct acccess with good visualisation of remote git repositories. "A big part of what makes Pharo (or any Smalltalk) special is the IDE written in itself." There is no doubt that IDE wise Pharo is best to handle refactoring pharo code, debug etc. But my approach does not lock you down on a single editor. As I demonstrated in the video you can move easily between Pharo and VS code and thats the whole point, you can take advantage of the best of both worlds. "There is for example https://github.com/dmatveev/shampoo-emacs which already makes a bit more sense (but even then)." I am fully aware of emacs shampoo I used to recommend it but not any more for the simple fact it has not been updated for 6 years. Shampoo also is not just about code editing its also a port of the smalltalk IDE to emacs. I am talking strictly code editing here and various other tools that can be found in those editors that simply do not exist in Pharo, I am not talking about IDEs. Why not have your cake and eat it too if you can ? The whole point of my video was how to use external editor with Pharo and not to replace Pharo completely which I think what you talking about here. Coding editing in Pharo has still a long way to go, we do not even have an easy way to setup keyboard shortcuts which is essential not for me but at least for others. We all want to live completely inside the image but in reality those features take time to implement and is a lot of work for our small community. By the way neither Emacs, Vim or Visual Studio Code are IDEs.Just powerful editors with some IDE features and usually most of the features come in form of extensions that you have install and configure properly. In any case I will repeat once again the point of the video is how to taker advantage of nice features in code editors without having to abandon Pharo. If this convince people to stick with Pharo I think its a win win situation. Wouldnt you agree ?

Jan. 24, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code editors to code in Pharo

by Sven Van Caekenberghe

> On 24 Jan 2019, at 15:12, Craig <craig(a)hivemind.net> wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf Of > Sven Van Caekenberghe > Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2019 15:53 > To: Any question about pharo is welcome > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code editors > to code in Pharo > > > >> Everybody is of course totally free to do whatever they want, but really, > why the hell would you want to do that ? >> >> You lose so much by doing that, I do not even know where to start. >> >> A big part of what makes Pharo (or any Smalltalk) special is the IDE > written in itself. >> >> Editing a .st file has always been possible, it is masochism. >> >> There is for example https://github.com/dmatveev/shampoo-emacs which > already makes a bit more sense (but even then). >> >> Really, why do you think all these big IDE environments exist in the first > place ? >> >> Sven > > Having the entire class in one text file so that you can see all of the > functionality without a ridiculous amount of clicking around is a huge > bonus. In practice, it turns out that most well written object code is distributed over several classes anyway, browsers were invented to help there - they are the solution, not the problem. > Especially for those of us that come from a C#/Java environment. Also, > VS-Code provides a nice self-learning code completion mechanism, > so you don't lose auto-completion. > > Win-win. > > Craig I don't know where you are coming from and how much exposure you already got to Pharo or Smalltalk (if you are new, welcome!), but it is only after learning to work in the IDE and then doing it a bit for real (that will be strange at first, there is a non trivial learning curve), that you will appreciate the differences. Working with Smalltalk code in a foreign editor/IDE is simply a terrible experience. (Although it sometimes might be useful in extreme/fallback situations). Sven

Jan. 24, 2019

Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code editors to code in Pharo

by Eric Gade

Sven asks an important question: why would anyone want to use an external text editor given the power already present in the system? For most of us on the list this question is rhetorical. But let's take a stab at addressing it with the seriousness that, I think, it actually deserves â particularly in light of the feedback we saw in various forums after the v7 announcement. First, outside users are coming from the (as we'd say, outmoded) paradigm. Multiple generations have now been inculcated with the idea that editing text is the primary kinesthetic part of programming. We need to think about ways that newcomers can "ease in" to something like Pharo, rather than shock therapy. They can pick up the advantages over time. Second, programmers are attached to their text editor of choice. It seems silly when said aloud, but it's the truth. When doing non-ST work, I like Emacs. Some people like vim. Others like any number of available text editors. They can move around quickly in them when it comes to editing text. Editing text, as much as we like to brush it aside, is something that still happens in Pharo. Again, we should ease people in as best as possible. Third, the text in most external editors looks nicer than it does in Pharo. This is not a small matter. If you have to stare at code all day, it really helps to have smoothly displayed typefaces and some choice (and easy configuration) about how things are displayed. Sure, it's possible to change the typeface in the current version of Pharo, but as many many people pointed out on HN, it does not look crisp. Programmers today are used to good looking text. Hopefully Bloc etc will be able to address this, but it goes again towards that presentation/visual aspect of the system that turns a lot of newcomers off. They think it looks cartoonish. Several responders online even indicated that the community does not take graphics / visual design seriously at all (which we know isn't true, but that's the impression people have). Fourth, there don't seem to be any *reasonable* or *easy* methods for editing remotely. With vim and emacs, editing code on a remote machine is so easy it's barely considered a feature. In editors like VS Code this is an easy enough feature to add. For Pharo it's hard to tell what's out there â how would a newcomer even know where to look to find out how to do this? Again, forum posters complained about out of date blog posts being the only accessible place to get information. I know about projects like Telepharo â but how does it work? Who is using it regularly? How would we explain it to someone who just completed the MOOC or PBE? And yes, I know about shampoo and it seems great, but I've never been able to get it to work properly with Pharo. I say all of this as someone who is using Pharo as much as I can in my daily work and who absolutely appreciates the system and philosophy behind it. Where it's reasonable, we should take the criticisms like these seriously. What we think matters might not matter to newcomers and vice versa. On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 9:13 AM Craig <craig(a)hivemind.net> wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-bounces@lists.pharo.org] On Behalf > Of > Sven Van Caekenberghe > Sent: Thursday, 24 January 2019 15:53 > To: Any question about pharo is welcome > Subject: Re: [Pharo-users] [VIDEO TUTORIAL] How to use external code > editors > to code in Pharo > > > > >Everybody is of course totally free to do whatever they want, but really, > why the hell would you want to do that ? > > > >You lose so much by doing that, I do not even know where to start. > > > >A big part of what makes Pharo (or any Smalltalk) special is the IDE > written in itself. > > > >Editing a .st file has always been possible, it is masochism. > > > >There is for example https://github.com/dmatveev/shampoo-emacs which > already makes a bit more sense (but even then). > > > >Really, why do you think all these big IDE environments exist in the first > place ? > > > >Sven > > Having the entire class in one text file so that you can see all of the > functionality without a ridiculous amount of clicking around is a huge > bonus. > Especially for those of us that come from a C#/Java environment. Also, > VS-Code provides a nice self-learning code completion mechanism, > so you don't lose auto-completion. > > Win-win. > > Craig > > > > -- Eric

Jan. 24, 2019