June 2018 - Pharo-users - lists.pharo.org

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

by Travis Ayres

What does not talking like an asshole have to do with being white and male? ...seriously? On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 11:31 AM Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas < offray.luna(a)mutabit.com> wrote: > > > On 18/06/18 09:47, Herbert VojÄÃk wrote: > > Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong > decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to > working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm. > > > First, it was MY decision. > > > My apologies to blaming Steph. > > Iâm pushing launcher as the default download for Pharo since year now. > Do I am happy with it not working on windows right now? Of course not. But > pushing it also in windows has already forced us to fix some bugs there and > a new version of the launcher (and a better Pharo on windows) and at the > result will be good. > I was going to suspend the launcher as the default download until a better > version arrived, but Iâve been told that will happen this week, so I will > wait. > > Second, we have a lot of bottlenecks, but is true this is important. > > Third, please restrain your self to talk like that in the future. Is rude > and unnecessary. > > > I won't. Sometimes it seems this kind of talk is needed. Windows launcher > was not working for so long but it is still pushed as the default download > option, because "higher goals" I presume. If this kind of talk helps to get > rid of it until working (or make it finally actually work), it is anything > but unnecessary. > > > I don't see how this "Macho Programmer Culture" mixing genitalia size with > community behavior and admin choices is necessary. But I see why, for sure, > non-(white)-males feel so unwelcome in developers communities when some > members feels such "necessity" of addressing others with such language and > when pointed to that, just reinforce their choices. > > Best, > > Offray >

June 18, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

by Offray Vladimir Luna CÃ¡rdenas

On 18/06/18 09:47, Herbert VojÄÃk wrote: >>> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong >>> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him >>> revert to working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the >>> bottleneck atm. >> >> First, it was MY decision. > > My apologies to blaming Steph. > >> Iâm pushing launcher as the default download for Pharo since year now. >> Do I am happy with it not working on windows right now? Of course >> not. But pushing it also in windows has already forced us to fix some >> bugs there and a new version of the launcher (and a better Pharo on >> windows) and at the result will be good. >> I was going to suspend the launcher as the default download until a >> better version arrived, but Iâve been told that will happen this >> week, so I will wait. >> >> Second, we have a lot of bottlenecks, but is true this is important. >> >> Third, please restrain your self to talk like that in the future. Is >> rude and unnecessary. > > I won't. Sometimes it seems this kind of talk is needed. Windows > launcher was not working for so long but it is still pushed as the > default download option, because "higher goals" I presume. If this > kind of talk helps to get rid of it until working (or make it finally > actually work), it is anything but unnecessary. I don't see how this "Macho Programmer Culture" mixing genitalia size with community behavior and admin choices is necessary. But I see why, for sure, non-(white)-males feel so unwelcome in developers communities when some members feels such "necessity" of addressing others with such language and when pointed to that, just reinforce their choices. Best, Offray

June 18, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

by Travis Ayres

"And donât tell me you count the windows developers that are driven away from a user program like PharoLauncher that is not working properly." Why not? On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 11:05 AM Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > > Am 18.06.2018 um 19:19 schrieb horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com>: > > Developers are users, and many users are developers. > > Ah, Iâm not sure what value this sentence adds. The point is that the > market share you were referring to is users that are not developers. > > What kind of developers are you counting? Microsoft/Windows/.NET developers > represent a huge number, especially in the enterprise market. If these > developers are going to explore alternative tools like Java, Ruby, Pharo, > Common Lisp, etc., they'll be doing it in Windows. > > Developers under macOS are mostly focussed on macOS, iOS, Objective-C, and > Swift. They are no more predisposed to looking at Pharo than developers > under Windows. Is this not perfectly logical? > > Ok, letâs try to other way round. If there are many developers in windows > why is the pharo stuff for windows so badly supported? It does indeed mean > that either there arenât many or they lack the expertise (or are too lazy) > to improve stuff in pharo. And donât tell me you count the windows > developers that are driven away from a user program like PharoLauncher that > is not working properly. > > Norbert > > > NorbertHartl wrote > > Am 18.06.2018 um 16:16 schrieb horrido < > > > horrido.hobbies@ > > > >: > > > Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using? > > I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux > has about 2%. > > Your mixing users and developers. I donât have numbers but Iâm pretty sure > if you count developers windows does not have that big of a market share. > For squeak/pharo especially I guess Mac was always the preferred platform. > > > Norbert > > > Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > > On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert VojÄÃk < > > > herby@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04: > > This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds > (undocumented or hard to find). > I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care > that > newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care > about > Pharo's reputation. > The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye. > > > Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong > decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert > to > working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm. > > > The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially > developers > who can fix Windows problems. > > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > >

June 18, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

by phil＠highoctane.be

I am developing on Windows and using the launcher. Also on Linux and macOS. In a corp environment, Windows rules. So make it work there if you want any traction. The laucher now works nicely on Windows. But the files are not the right ones on the download page. So fixing that will go a long way. I have been back on using more mainstream tech and well, stuff works as advertised. We are lagging behind on a couple fronts that's what I see. Phil On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 20:04 Norbert Hartl <norbert(a)hartl.name> wrote: > > > Am 18.06.2018 um 19:19 schrieb horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com>: > > Developers are users, and many users are developers. > > Ah, Iâm not sure what value this sentence adds. The point is that the > market share you were referring to is users that are not developers. > > What kind of developers are you counting? Microsoft/Windows/.NET developers > represent a huge number, especially in the enterprise market. If these > developers are going to explore alternative tools like Java, Ruby, Pharo, > Common Lisp, etc., they'll be doing it in Windows. > > Developers under macOS are mostly focussed on macOS, iOS, Objective-C, and > Swift. They are no more predisposed to looking at Pharo than developers > under Windows. Is this not perfectly logical? > > Ok, letâs try to other way round. If there are many developers in windows > why is the pharo stuff for windows so badly supported? It does indeed mean > that either there arenât many or they lack the expertise (or are too lazy) > to improve stuff in pharo. And donât tell me you count the windows > developers that are driven away from a user program like PharoLauncher that > is not working properly. > > Norbert > > > NorbertHartl wrote > > Am 18.06.2018 um 16:16 schrieb horrido < > > > horrido.hobbies@ > > > >: > > > Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using? > > I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux > has about 2%. > > Your mixing users and developers. I donât have numbers but Iâm pretty sure > if you count developers windows does not have that big of a market share. > For squeak/pharo especially I guess Mac was always the preferred platform. > > > Norbert > > > Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote > > On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert VojÄÃk < > > > herby@ > > > > wrote: > > > > > horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04: > > This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds > (undocumented or hard to find). > I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care > that > newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care > about > Pharo's reputation. > The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye. > > > Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong > decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert > to > working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm. > > > The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially > developers > who can fix Windows problems. > > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html > > >

June 18, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

by Norbert Hartl

> Am 18.06.2018 um 19:19 schrieb horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com>: > > Developers are users, and many users are developers. > Ah, Iâm not sure what value this sentence adds. The point is that the market share you were referring to is users that are not developers. > What kind of developers are you counting? Microsoft/Windows/.NET developers > represent a huge number, especially in the enterprise market. If these > developers are going to explore alternative tools like Java, Ruby, Pharo, > Common Lisp, etc., they'll be doing it in Windows. > > Developers under macOS are mostly focussed on macOS, iOS, Objective-C, and > Swift. They are no more predisposed to looking at Pharo than developers > under Windows. Is this not perfectly logical? > Ok, letâs try to other way round. If there are many developers in windows why is the pharo stuff for windows so badly supported? It does indeed mean that either there arenât many or they lack the expertise (or are too lazy) to improve stuff in pharo. And donât tell me you count the windows developers that are driven away from a user program like PharoLauncher that is not working properly. Norbert > > NorbertHartl wrote >>> Am 18.06.2018 um 16:16 schrieb horrido < > >> horrido.hobbies@ > >> >: >>> >>> Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using? >>> >>> I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux >>> has about 2%. >>> >> Your mixing users and developers. I donât have numbers but Iâm pretty sure >> if you count developers windows does not have that big of a market share. >> For squeak/pharo especially I guess Mac was always the preferred platform. >> >> Norbert >>> >>> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>>>> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert VojÄÃk < >>> >>>> herby@ >>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04: >>>>>> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds >>>>>> (undocumented or hard to find). >>>>>> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care >>>>>> that >>>>>> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care >>>>>> about >>>>>> Pharo's reputation. >>>>>> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye. >>>>> >>>>> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong >>>>> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert >>>>> to >>>>> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm. >>>> >>>> The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially >>>> developers >>>> who can fix Windows problems. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >>> > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html <http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html>

June 18, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

by Tudor Girba

Hi Herbert, I too invite you to reconsider your language. Please stick to arguments. This is a public forum and its communication hygiene depends on everyoneâs behavior. Now, tackling your point: in this specific case, even your argument is incorrect. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. Pharo 7 is a development version and this is expected to have glitches from time to time. While this is inconvenient, pushing new things is the only way to obtain the necessary feedback. If you prefer stability, you are welcome to work with 6.1. Cheers, Tudor > On Jun 18, 2018, at 4:47 PM, Herbert VojÄÃk <herby(a)mailbox.sk> wrote: > > > > Esteban Lorenzano wrote on 18. 6. 2018 16:04: >>> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert VojÄÃk <herby(a)mailbox.sk> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04: >>>> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds >>>> (undocumented or hard to find). >>>> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that >>>> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care about >>>> Pharo's reputation. >>>> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye. >>> >>> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm. >> First, it was MY decision. > > My apologies to blaming Steph. > >> Iâm pushing launcher as the default download for Pharo since year now. >> Do I am happy with it not working on windows right now? Of course not. But pushing it also in windows has already forced us to fix some bugs there and a new version of the launcher (and a better Pharo on windows) and at the result will be good. >> I was going to suspend the launcher as the default download until a better version arrived, but Iâve been told that will happen this week, so I will wait. >> Second, we have a lot of bottlenecks, but is true this is important. >> Third, please restrain your self to talk like that in the future. Is rude and unnecessary. > > I won't. Sometimes it seems this kind of talk is needed. Windows launcher was not working for so long but it is still pushed as the default download option, because "higher goals" I presume. If this kind of talk helps to get rid of it until working (or make it finally actually work), it is anything but unnecessary. > > Herby > >> Esteban >>> >>> Herby >>> >>>> Travis Ayres wrote >>>>> I wonder how many people tried Pharo, thought "Oh this is totally broken" >>>>> and are never going to give it a second (or third) chance. >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 11:26 AM, >>>>> phil@ >>>>> < >>>>> phil@ >>>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> The current website shows the wrong link, the installer for the bleeding >>>>>> edge is the wrong one in files. >>>>>> The situation on the Windows front is very very bad and not really >>>>>> improving. >>>>>> >>>>>> That being said, the installer on the CI is the right one and works. >>>>>> >>>>>> so, steal the installer from here: https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci- >>>>>> jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher >>>>>> >>>>>> This is the one you want: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/ >>>>>> >>>>>> For having the latest lastet everything, go to the launcher settings, get >>>>>> into the devmode and open monticello and load the latest packages. >>>>>> >>>>>> Phil >>>> -- >>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html -- www.tudorgirba.com www.feenk.com "Beauty is where we see it."

June 18, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] How to contribute to Pharo Launcher?

by Tim Mackinnon

While Iâm at it - improve the icon for Launch without Settings (it needed Alpha) Name: PharoLauncher-Core-TimM.174 Author: TimM Time: 18 June 2018, 6:11:54.416337 pm UUID: d9433566-4f2b-0d00-85be-afca09965ccd Ancestors: PharoLauncher-Core-TimM.173 Sorry - canât help with the windows launch problems as I donât have a windows machine any more. > On 18 Jun 2018, at 17:35, Tim Mackinnon <tim(a)testit.works> wrote: > > Ok - Iâve done a save for both packages - hopefully they are useful: > > Name: PharoLauncher-Spec-TimM.70 > Author: TimM > Time: 18 June 2018, 5:32:00.928101 pm > UUID: 5e888bd7-4e2b-0d00-85bb-537409965ccd > Ancestors: PharoLauncher-Spec-TimM.69 > > > Name: PharoLauncher-Core-TimM.172 > Author: TimM > Time: 18 June 2018, 5:34:46.055084 pm > UUID: 6a2b63e1-4e2b-0d00-85bc-0fed09965ccd > Ancestors: PharoLauncher-Core-TimM.171 > > > >> On 18 Jun 2018, at 16:30, Cyril Ferlicot D. <cyril.ferlicot(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> On 18/06/2018 17:27, Tim Mackinnon wrote: >>> Hi Cyril - I have to confess that I donât recall what the steps are to safely commit in Monticello. I have smallish changes to 2 packages Core and Spec, and I can see that smalltalkhub repo in the MC browser and can browse my changes against it - but how do I commit both packages in there? I vaguely recall something about slices - but wasnât that a Pharo core thing? >>> >>> I get the impression that I donât just press save on each package against sthub do I? >>> >>> Sorry to be so dumb - Iâve just swapped out Monticello usage for Git usage these days. Just need a few hints to get back on track >>> >> >> You need to save the two packages individually. >> >> While git is project oriented, StHub is package oriented. >> >> Slices are only for Pharo development. (One could adapt them to make >> Monticello more project oriented but it is currently not the case). >> >> So in conclusion, yes you need to press save on each package. :) >> >>> Tim >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Cyril Ferlicot >> https://ferlicot.fr >> > >

June 18, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

by horrido

Developers are users, and many users are developers. What kind of developers are you counting? Microsoft/Windows/.NET developers represent a huge number, especially in the enterprise market. If these developers are going to explore alternative tools like Java, Ruby, Pharo, Common Lisp, etc., they'll be doing it in Windows. Developers under macOS are mostly focussed on macOS, iOS, Objective-C, and Swift. They are no more predisposed to looking at Pharo than developers under Windows. Is this not perfectly logical? NorbertHartl wrote >> Am 18.06.2018 um 16:16 schrieb horrido < > horrido.hobbies@ > >: >> >> Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using? >> >> I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux >> has about 2%. >> > Your mixing users and developers. I donât have numbers but Iâm pretty sure > if you count developers windows does not have that big of a market share. > For squeak/pharo especially I guess Mac was always the preferred platform. > > Norbert >> >> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>>> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert VojÄÃk < >> >>> herby@ >> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04: >>>>> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds >>>>> (undocumented or hard to find). >>>>> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care >>>>> that >>>>> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care >>>>> about >>>>> Pharo's reputation. >>>>> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye. >>>> >>>> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong >>>> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert >>>> to >>>> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm. >>> >>> The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially >>> developers >>> who can fix Windows problems. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >> -- Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html

June 18, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

by Norbert Hartl

> Am 18.06.2018 um 16:16 schrieb horrido <horrido.hobbies(a)gmail.com>: > > Lack of enough Windows users? What platform are most Pharoers using? > > I'm using macOS, but this platform has only about 12% market share. Linux > has about 2%. > Your mixing users and developers. I donât have numbers but Iâm pretty sure if you count developers windows does not have that big of a market share. For squeak/pharo especially I guess Mac was always the preferred platform. Norbert > > Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote >>> On 18 Jun 2018, at 15:39, Herbert VojÄÃk < > >> herby@ > >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> horrido wrote on 18. 6. 2018 0:04: >>>> This is what concerns me. I don't care that there are workarounds >>>> (undocumented or hard to find). >>>> I care that Windows is a most popular development platform. I care that >>>> newcomers to Pharo easily find what they need to get started. I care >>>> about >>>> Pharo's reputation. >>>> The last thing Pharo needs is a black eye. >>> >>> Do you have enough balls to call out Steph for his obviously wrong >>> decision to push Launcher down the users' throats and make him revert to >>> working installers / zips? Cause AFAICT there's the bottleneck atm. >> >> The problem is the lack of enough Windows users and especially developers >> who can fix Windows problems. > > > > > > -- > Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html >

June 18, 2018

Re: [Pharo-users] Windows installation broken?

by James Foster

> On Jun 18, 2018, at 10:47 AM, Herbert VojÄÃk <herby(a)mailbox.sk> wrote: > > Esteban Lorenzano wrote on 18. 6. 2018 16:04: >> please restrain your self to talk like that in the future. Is rude and unnecessary. > > I won't. Sometimes it seems this kind of talk is needed. Windows launcher was not working for so long but it is still pushed as the default download option, because "higher goals" I presume. If this kind of talk helps to get rid of it until working (or make it finally actually work), it is anything but unnecessary. âSometimes" it seems necessary to be rude. If an insult is the only thing that works, "it is anything but unnecessary." While one can make a case that arrogant, rude behavior is occasionally ânecessary," you havenât made it here. To do so you first need to show (1) not just that the problem existed but was reported a long time ago, (2) that other more gentle attempts to push the issue were unsuccessful, (3) that the benefit of the fix outweighs the cost of the damage you are doing to the community, and (4) that you are uniquely qualified to make that judgment. You have not satisfied any of those requirements. Is this the way you treat your family? Are you managing a software team using this approach? Or do you limit this sort of behavior to on-line communities? James Foster

June 18, 2018